Gravity is pulling the Cosmos apart - exponentially. A bunch of marbles, dropped from Space will seperate, because the marble nearest Earth will have a stronger gravitational attraction than the marble furthest from Earth, and will therefore fall fastest.

But, because Time is involved, the Earth (during this Time) will move out from under the marbles, and, if the marbles are dropped perpendicular to Earth's orbital path, they will begin to 'curve', beginning with the marble closest to Earth. They might take up orbit around Earth, or they might 'curve' down into the atmosphere.

That's in my Space. In my Space there are no straight lines. Everything (of size) is round, rotating, and going around something else.

In addition, it's warming up or cooling down, expanding or compacting... nothing is staying the same. It's getting darker or lighter, bigger or smaller, more or less circular etc. etc.

If I point to a chair and ask you if it's Gaining Temperature or Losing it?, you can't tell me, 'Geez, I didn't even know the chair had a Temperature,' because I will say, 'Just because you don't know it has a certain Temperature, doesn't mean that it doesn't have a Temperature, it just means that you don't know it has a Temperature.'

So in my Space, you would therefore have to take my word for it, think hard and try to answer the question anyway, considering various factors, say, the time of day (Morning) the geographical location of the chair (in the desert) etc. etc. and tell me, 'Well, after thought, I now believe that if indeed, that chair has a Temperature, I would say it is Increasing, because of this reason and that reason. That is my honest opinion."

If Falling (Gravitating) really does get a system pulled apart, and faster and faster (exponentially) at that, then Gravity could be the reason, in fact - the most likely reason, for the Exponentially Accellerating Expansion we see going on in the Universe tonight.

what?
are you saying that you live in a different "space" than everyone else?
your space sounds pretty much like everyone else's space..

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I beg to differ on this. An object passing through a Lagrangian point of all gravitation forces around it will travel through, in a strait line.

I don't mean to be abrupt but such a statement is akin to the one "There are no right angles in nature" made by certain folks. However if you have ever grown a salt crystal, that proves the statement wrong.

Normally yes matter would travel in a curve because of gravity. With the exception of when passing through a Lagrange point. There may be other phenomena we haven't seen yet that also allows for a strait line travel.

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Since everything is in motion and since a body can only truly be said to be travelling along a straight line between two points that are also motionless, then the argument is a non sequitar. It really depends upon your frame of reference. If there are two craft in orbit around the earth and they are motionless with respect to each other, an astronaut travelling between them may appear to move in a straight line. To an independant observer outside this micro-system, all objects are travelling along an arc.

Since gravity can clearly be shown to hold things together, I'm not sure how it be argued that the same force is responsible for an opposite effect that is not actually demonstrable

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Isn't this the same old idea, with a new metaphor?

Outward Expansion versus Inward Expansion

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Are you on MySpace? I'm on MySpace! Wanna be my friend? I'll be your friend! What's your MySpace user ID? Are you on Facebook? I'm on Facebook! Wanna by my friend?

Oh, no, astrocat! Please tell me you're not just retreading old ideas already presented!

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Sure, gravity can pull stuff apart. It is simply caused by extreme tidal forces, but it really doesn't apply except when close to extremely strong gravitational fields (black holes are the usual example).

Yes, but if object A is pulled apart by tidal forces from object B, chances are that object A will become part of Object B. Gravity does not push.

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Let's wait for the vacuum cleaner!

Wow, in your space everything does something either this or the opposite, that is so clever that you figured that out.

And I always wondered why the empty chair feels "cool" whereas the chair that my friend just sat on feels "warm". I never figured out that a chair could have a temperature, thanks for sharing that idea with us.

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Yeah, it's a question I'm always asking myself. My Space seems different to everyone else's. But then, my Space is 100% Gravity driven. I don't need any Big Bang or Dark Energy at all. I guess that's what makes my "Space' different to yours.

Good to hear from you, Novaderrik, you're the first response.

You may be right, I never really studied the Lagrange points. I will have to get back to you on this. And salt chrystals? No I have never grown them. What should I expect to see, if I did?

Well, theoretically, yes. But where can you show me a body travelling in a straight line?

I don't think so. If the astronaut is leaving one craft to chase down the other, he will have to slow down in order to catch the other. As he slows, he will 'curve' downwards and then begin to pick up speed. How is all this activity going to give him a perfectly flat , or straight, line of travel?

Good to hear from you, again, Occam. I, of course, am the World's Greatest Supporter of your famous razor. Long Live lex parsimoniae (the Law of Succinctness) I say!
Well, kind of.

And pull them together...

Oh, but it is. Responsible. And demonstrable. Easily.

Ten marbles dropped from 200 miles above Earth's atmosphere, perpendicular to Earth's orbital path, will accellerate towards Earth, but at different speeds. The one nearest Earth will fall fastest... Curving Etc. This would demonstrate a Lowering Density among the marbles. Am I right?

You need to consider all objects in a system that have an affect on any of the other objects in the system.

Thus; the force on the marbles is outside the system of marbles, so your system is non-inclusive.

To include all the forces in the system you need to include Earth in the system.

Now; among the system being described (the Earth/Marble system), the density is rising.

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There might be other phenomenon... straight line travel, as you say, but your Lagrange Points are orbiting Earth, are they not? In straight lines?

How nice to hear from you again, pzkpfw. And so nice to hear you refer to an earlier Thread - Inward versus Outward Expansion.

I don't think of Gravity as 'the same old idea', but rather as a relatively unexplored area of Science. Which is sad. To me, anyway.

You see, I think Gravity can do it all, from Lowering the Density of systems, to the opposite extreme, the Formation of SMBHs (Super Massive Black Holes).

What a performer! Let's not underestimate it, pzxpfw... Cheers!

i think you are over thinking the properties of your space. they seem pretty much the same as the properties in the space everyone else lives in, but for some reason you think your space is special..

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Well, thanks for proving my point, but I really meant 'as in a system', gravity can cause seperation, or a lowering density, if you prefer - or Expansion - the word I like. Take a bunch of marbles 200 miles above Earth and drop them. Even without atmospheric phenomena, they will seperate. Now, Cjl, am I wrong?

I will go further, in saying that - if conditions are right, they will develope a curve in their flight-formation. Let me know if you can't see this.

Don't tempt me. Hi, Tusenfem. Are you still in Austria?

I'm trying to show that Space is active and alive. It doesn't just sit there, like some Big Bangers think. It actually does stuff - tons of it, if you just take off the blinkers!

Hey, right on! And you gave a reason why the temperature changed, and agreed that the chair at least had a temperature... I can see we're going to do famously.

With this I cannot argue, but must agree.

Um, yes. You're right. Sorry.

Naturally.

Yes, it is.

Can we say there are two systems, then... Earth and Marbles. The Earth/Marble system of which you speak is becoming more dense.

The Marble System is the system that is becoming less dense. It is the Marble system that I am talking about. Thank you for straightening me out, NEOwatcher.

That's my point. You can't


I was referring to two spacecraft a few meters apart. Anyway, my point (once again) was that the astronaut's path would NOT be a straight line.

To repeat, in the grand scheme of things, all movement is an arc. Linear motion only appears within a closed frame of reference

No, you're wrong. Your contention doesn't make any sense. Ten marbles dropped from 200 miles above the earth (assuming that you COULD "drop" something from that high) at the same time and the same location would fall and accellerate at the same rate. Any variation would be the result of other forces acting upon them.

I cannot see what point you are trying to make.

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On the scale of the observable Universe, everything is basically moving apart. As in, getting further away from everything else.

(Yes, there is local variation, such as Galaxies holding themselves together, and the occasional collision between Galaxies.)

That is, there does not seem to be a single point that the Universe is being attracted to, and being pulled-apart by (the way your metaphoric/meteoric marbles are being attracted to the Earth).

For gravity to be causing the "pulling apart" (expansion) of the Universe, that gravity would have to be all around the Universe - pulling equally in all directions ("outward").

If this were the case, I'd expect a centre of the Universe to be detectable, as it would be the place where the pull in each direction is equal, and everything moves away from it.

There isn't.

So I can't see how this idea/metaphor works.

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What if you dropped the marbles one after the other, at 1 second intervals? Would the distance between the first and tenth marbles remain the same for the duration of their fall, or would the distance increase as they fell?

Sorry, somehow, I totally misread you.

Oh, so glad we're in agreement... That means travel in a straight line, doesn't it?

I always ask people, in my threads, if they would put the explanaition in brackets after difficult acronyms (e.g.SMBH... I didn't at first know that the letters stood for Super Massive Black Hole, if you can believe that) or long words. You see, Occam, for one reason or another, I can only speak in the most general of terms.

Alone, this isn't enough - with respect to the high caliber intellect that I so often find myself dealing with, including yours - unless- I can state my case with absolute clarity. I have to have a twelve year old to be able to understand me. That's one of the requirements of the job.

I think you should come back here, Occam - making sure to bring your razor, of course, and tell everybody what a closed frame of reference is.

Then I said about the ten marbles...

No, no no - you can't make these blanket statements... You have to give reasons. Are the ten marbles becoming, as a group, more or less dense?

How about we get an F-16 to its maximium ceiling and get it to shoot a missile upwards to release a cannister that released these marbles? Is it really such a stretch?

No, no no, in my Space nothing is 'the same'. Either these marbles are going to come together, or they are going to seperate - due to their proximity to Earth. Are they coming together, or will they seperate. You can choose one or the other. You can't just say... well, you know. Yes, but which variation? Using all your bountiful knowledge, Occam, and after giving it your very best thinking - in your considered, scientific opinion, is the group of marbles gonna become more or less dense?

It has to be one or the other. Please tell us. Readers want to know.


Yes, these other forces... There is so much to consider.

But there is only one answer.

That the marbles will seperate. I don't have any problem with that. But perhaps you do. If so, you should tell us.

If I say the Observable Universe (OU) is Expanding Exponentially, is that the same thing. Or isn't it?

I call it Clumping Up. Yes, there is a lot of this going on... More so, lately. It's one more thing the Cosmos is doing, and I'm glad you mentionerd it. It's only by examining all aspects of Cosmic Behaviour that we can arrive at a proper understanding. Just to choose one single thing the Cosmos is doing, and talk about it without mentioning at least a few of the other things - I think that's not good science. I'm sorry.

You see, the Cosmos is so vast, and we can only see so little of it... Case in point - this recent discovery of a huge void past Erdanius - you must have heard of it - it shows with frightening clarity how poorly we can see, if we have been living, virtually next to, such a massive emptiness and have not even, up till now, been able to detect or sense its 'unnerving' (to me, anyway) proximity.

A shrewd observation, I must say. I would only ask you, what if the Cosmos was found to have an axis? Wouldn't that tell us it was turning?

Up to here, I understand...

Well, not away from it. Maybe more - towards it. But are these marbles gonna spread out or come together. It has to be one or the other, Pzkpfw.

Just because you can't see it... There's no sign of a Big Bang, either, come to that.

You have to try. You have to give it your very best thinking. You have to imagine these marbles falling. We have to bear in mind, that one of the very first considerations we can give to the subject is the fact that each marble has an inbuilt gravitational attraction, not just to Earth, Sol, etc. but to each other.

It's not easy. You have to weigh all these forces and predict an outcome - based on your best science, concerning these marbles. And not just that - but about the curve they will adopt persuing Earth's C of G (Center of Gravity). That's what I'm asking all posters to this thread.

Stutefish. If I didn't know better I'd say you should call yourself, Astutefish.

What an intelligent question. Now me, I'd say the marbles would spread out - that the distance between them would increase.

But what if I'm wrong. I'm just human! I wish some of these readers just sitting on the sidelines would help me answer this question. Maybe there's someone reading this who's really young..?

In that case, the distance would increase as they fell, as the last one will always be traveling slower than the first (the difference in their speeds would be constant though). As for the other question, they would theoretically separate, but the effect is so small as to be practically unmeasurable in a system as you described. As I said earlier, it is only really applicable when you are talking about extremely large gravitational fields and extremely close proximity to them.

Thread closed.

We have already discussed this ATM topic to the 30 day limit here:

Outward Expansion versus Inward Expansion

Astrocat - bringing up your same ATM theory, which you refuse to qualitatively define and defend, by starting with a different introductory post, is most definately against forum rules.

You know better, so consider this an Official Warning. Your next attempt to do so will result in suspension of your posting priviledges.

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"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Addendum - After a private conversation with Astrocat, I have withdrawn my Official Warning, and am going to unlock the thread, on Astrocat's word that new material, some of which brought up by other posters, is going to be discussed, and all remaing discussion will be unrelated to Astrocat's previous thread. However, should this be abused, in return, there will be no further warning

Good Luck, AstroCat. Please continue your discussion.

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"Those are the people that wonder how a thermos knows whether to keep something hot or keep something cold." ~ NeoWatcher

Thanks Serenitude.

Then it looks to me like the 'Marble system' will lose density as it goes.

Yes, they would seperate, and yes, the Marbles will spread out. I have seen this very effect - and it is quite noiticeable - when you roll pennies along the inside of a funnel.

Here I disagree. The effect is quite noticeable, as I have said, in all kinds of areas.

And I am also interested in any straight lines in Space. Do they exist?