This thread introduces the concept of “No Solid Particles” to the previous body of ATM posts about the Infinite Spongy Universe (ISU), the Elementary Energy Particle (EEP), and the previously posted concept of “turtles all the way down”. To put this post into perspective I refer you to those previous threads.

The Landscape of the Greater Universe

In Big Bang Theory (BBT) our expanding universe is “The Universe”, and in the Infinite Spongy Universe (ISU), our expanding universe is just one of an infinite number of such universes. In the ISU there have always been universes like the one discussed in BBT playing out through contraction and expansion everywhere across the greater universe.

In the following “Turtles All the Way Down” section you will begin to see how I envision the landscape of the greater universe and the nature of the ISU where no solid particles exist. You will also notice that what I have referred to as the “indestructible EEP” is an intricate complex of energy itself, and it is actually energy itself that is indestructible and infinitely fine.

In the Infinite Spongy Universe – No Solid Particles - Turtles All the Way Down

One can think long and hard about the infinity of space and matters related to the infinite and the infinitesimal. I think that given enough thought one might conclude that everything is made of energy in space and energy in space is made up of elementary energy particles (EEPs) that occupy space and that can combine to bring more and more energy to bear in a particular location where no solid particle ever actually exists.

After all, a solid particle would seem to have to be infinitely dense and inert. If so, there could be no physics since I can’t imagine how infinitely dense inert particles would interact with each other. In order to interact, EEPs must have the characteristic of “fluctuating energy density”.

EEPs with fluctuating energy density would have the ability to combine though synchronization when two adjacent EEPs could be attracted and held together by their opposite phases of fluctuation, i.e. where one expands while the other contracts thus sharing a given space into which one is drawn as the other evacuates. When EEPs are synchronized, their shared space is evacuated by the contraction phase of one EEP and becomes occupied by the expansion phase of the other EEP.

To provide this ability to combine and yet to avoid ever having a solid particle in existence, in an infinite universe there are an infinite number of levels of order (LoO). Physics repeats itself on each level of order and each level of order is separate from the others based on the size of its elementary energy particles.

The size of one EEP on any given LoO is the smallest increment of energy that can have any meaning on that LoO, and all energy that comes to bear in any location on that LoO is composed of a whole number of EEPs. An individual EEP on our level of order is a complete contracting and then expanding universe on the next lower level of order (LEEP level), and our expanding universe on our level of order is merely a single expanding EEP on the next higher level of order (HEEP level).

Each EEP exists for only one contraction and one expansion where upon the constituents of the EEP are disbursed to take up similar roles in newly forming and contracting EEPs in adjacent space. The contraction ends before infinite density is reached. The near infinitely dense EEP bursts when its constituent lower level EEPs (LEEPs) are so compressed that they become locked, build up potential energy, and burst when that potential energy exceeds the gravitational force that causes them to contract, i.e. they achieve critical capacity.

Locked EEPs are the closest that the universe comes to a solid particle but even in the locked state the individual LEEPs within a given EEP retain their identity as contracting and expanding entities on their own lower level of order. These locked EEPs may seem to lose their identity but as soon as the burst occurs they are segmented back into their individual identities based on what is a meaningful amount of energy on their level of order. This segmentation occurs because each EEP is composed of an infinite number of still lower level EEPs (SLEEPs), each in its own process of contracting or expanding on their own levels independent of the fact that their parent EEP is caught up in some temporary locked environment with its neighboring EEPs.

Gravity is part of the physics that repeats itself on each level of order. Thus gravity causes the contraction and the failure of gravity allows the expansion. The current change in the amount of space occupied by the constituent EEPs from one instant to the next determines if gravity rules or if expansion rules, i.e. if the EEP is contracting or expanding; there is never a stand still for an EEP. Even when locked the individual EEPs are buzzing with activity at an infinite number of lower levels of order occupied by the SLEEPs.

SLEEPs allow us to avoid ever having to address the existence of a solid infinitely dense particle. All energy on any level of order is made of the EEPs of that level and there is one energy unit per EEP on that level of order. These particles are self contained pulsing perpetual motion machines on their particular level of order but they each consist of smaller particles that are temporarily trapped in a spatial relationship with other such particles within the volume of space occupied by a single EEP on any given level of order, thus avoiding the solid particle “no no”.

Each elementary energy particle contains a finite number of lower order EEPs (LEEPs) identical to themselves but smaller by one level of order. Because the constituent particles of any given EEP, its LEEPs and their constituent particles in still lower levels of order (SLEEPs) occupy descending levels of order, and because there are an infinite number of lower levels of order no matter what level you are on, it can be said that each EEP contains an infinite number of still lower order energy increments or SLEEPs.

Each SLEEP, i.e. each particle in each lower level of order is a universe in itself. The universe within each particle is a real complete individual universe in its own right just like the expanding universe that we know and love. And each will have the same fate.

The fate of every EEP regardless of the level and regardless of whether they are EEPs, or LEEPs, or SLEEPs, or even HEEPs (higher order EEPs), after they complete their single contraction they will expand and disburse and their constituent EEPs will break free from that which has united them, their shared spatial relationship in their gravitational arena, only to become part of a finite subsequent temporary spatial relationship in another shared gravitational arena defined by an accumulation of elementary energy particles that will build back up to one energy unit on the next higher level of order.

The burst will occur and the expansion begins when the critical capacity of the contracting entity is reached, i.e. when the potential energy of the locked constituents overcomes the gravity that is causing their accumulation. And the expansion and contraction, i.e. the energy density fluctuations continue to occur forever just as they have always occurred.

This EEP/SLEEP scenario is referred to as “turtles all the way down” and each level of order has it own measure of time.

The Infinite Spongy Universe is turtles all the way down and turtles all the way up. Our expanding universe is one particle and therefore one unit of energy on the next higher level of order. We are alive in that universe contained in that one expanding elementary energy particle belonging to the level of order above us. Each EEP on each level of order occupies its own patch of space or arena where its contraction and expansion plays out. All levels of order share the same infinite space and each level of order consists of an infinite number of energy units in the form of elementary energy particles of that level.

No solid particles exist. Every particle recognized on our level of order is composed of smaller particles and there are an infinite number of lower and lower levels of order, just like there are an infinite number of higher and higher levels of order, all with the same physics and differing only in the amount of energy contained in their respective EEPs and in their respective measures of time.

The "No Solid Particles" post has given me many hours of mental fun and exercise. I thought I was approaching the limit of the mental capacity of the human brain to appreaciate the infinite and the infinitesimal, but it is probably just my own feeble equipment that is being tested .

Last night before falling asleep I found myself thinking about the "Turtles All the Way Down" aspect of the ISU. I once made an estimate that there are about 700 trillion EEPs in a proton and about 400 million EEPs in an electron (cloud). Following the thought that each EEP is either forming a big cunch or has become an expanding universe in itself, I found my poor brain flooded with the possible numbers of galaxies, solar systems and potential planets harbouring life in all the possible universes that have been or ever will be in all the levels of order of all the EEPs in the ISU. I imagined going forward and backward in time by trillions and trillions of years and expanding the distance of my thoughts by huge multiples of huge distances and considering how many intelligent beings may have lived full lives never imagining these things.

The end result was, as I drifted off to sleep, I thought they may be the lucky ones.

If you think about the “No Solid Particle” post you may have noticed the huge difference in the size of the EEP from one level of order to the next. For example there might be 700 trillion EEPs in just one proton on our level of order. So the difference in size or we could say the difference in energy content from one level to the next is expressed by comparing the energy in our entire expanding universe to a tiny 700 trillionth of the energy in a proton. A 700 trillionth of a proton’s energy represents the EEP and each EEP represents the next smaller universe on the next lower level of order. So a proton on our level might contain 700 trillion tiny universes on the next lower level of order.

You may reject the idea of levels of order because you don’t see any reason why EEPs wouldn’t come in all the various sizes in between instead of only expressing themselves as such vastly differing energy increments.

In the original post I mentioned my conclusion that energy is infinitely fine meaning that any increment can be divided into smaller increments. And any of those smaller increments can be broken into smaller and then still smaller increments, infinitely. And yet I maintain that there is only one size of energy increment that can actually have a meaningful impact on any given level of order and at each LoO they differ vastly in accordance with the example above.

The thing is that only the increments (EEPs) of a size that makes the physics work on any particular level of order will be meaningful on that level of order. In other words the only increment that works on a given LoO are the EEPs of the “size or increment of energy” that can interact and combine through synchronization and subsequently “build” protons and provide the EEPs for the electron cloud surrounding all protons, and then activate gravity. Gravity is activated when the first atoms take shape and begin producing photons that perpetuate the “flow” of EEPs through atoms and cause gravity to work.

Since the ISU has always existed, the orderly array of EEPs and HEEPs and SLEEPs necessary to supply each level of order has always existed as well. This means that there always has been a plentiful supply of EEPs of the proper energy increment to accommodate an infinite number of coexisting simultaneous arenas on any and all levels of order. Each arena accommodates an individual universe like our own. It is in those arenas that each universe plays out their phases of contraction and expansion.

Hello Bogie,

This is an update and an interesting one at that. I think this gets around the problem of matter entirely. It is just me but I still have problems with infinity but 700 billion is certainly a definable quantity.

Am I off track here but it seems that matter is a discrete definition of force and so any definition of mass as such is actually the force of weight.

You know this would rebound right royally through the realm of both general relativity and the quantum world.

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"Nature is obliged to let reality determine its laws, whereas mathematics is under no such constraint."

I sure hope you have patents on the EEP even though by posting publicly it is clear that this is your intellectual property.

There isn't any shape or configuration of the universe that this could fail to describe and it reduces everything down to just force and flow.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant and by Occam's Razor I think you have made string obsolete. Sorry about my last post, you said 700 trillion but do you have that as a number or could 700 trillion trillion trillion also be applicable?

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"Nature is obliged to let reality determine its laws, whereas mathematics is under no such constraint."

Hi Michael.

Based on how I think protons form I predicted that there was one EEP in the electron for each EEP on the surface of the proton. Using that prediction I made that estimate of the number of EEPs in a proton based on the ratio of the electron's mass to the proton’s mass, and the relationship of the surface of a sphere to the volume of a sphere.

That calculation first appeared in the Infinite Reach of Gravity Thread:

The infinite reach of gravity in the ISU

It was pointed out to me that I had made amateur mistakes in units of measure but it was never clear to me whether the comment came from a perspective of enlightenment or from a failure to grasp the simplicity of the relationships and how they work together.

Since I have been working alone on developing the ISU and the EEP I am happy when anyone offers any kind of constructive input. I think I said at the time that if someone with good math skills understood the EEP and the relationships that I pointed out, they could offer an improved number of EEPs in the proton for which I would be grateful. In the meantime I am using my figure of ~700 trillion EEPs in a proton which works just fine to put things into perspective. The calculations are covered in the Infinite Reach of Gravity thread.

I’m glad you understand the implications of my ideas and I appreciate your support.

Perhaps you would like to talk about what you mean when you say you still have problems with infinity? The ISU, the EEP, and "no solid particles" are dependent on the reality of infinity.

I think it is just me and numbers. I like there to be a set figure or estimate and so I am very glad to see that you have the EEP's number set for the proton.

I had asked a question about tractors and generated a large finite number of them. Then was told about an infinite number of rubbish bins. Well that was really helpful because an infinite number of bins whether stacked together or evenly spread would still cause a gravity well from which there is no escape.

Tractors:- each tractor has all possible iterations of all possibilities in Planck units. So first Planck interval 10^-44 all possibilities of that tractor. Second interval 10^-44 all possibilities of all those iterations and so on. Big numbers but finite. It worked out with my finite number of tractors I still could not stop the collapse of the universe.

So it seemed a bit like a waste of effort. That is why I like real numbers.

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"Nature is obliged to let reality determine its laws, whereas mathematics is under no such constraint."

In the OP I commented, “This EEP/SLEEP scenario is referred to as ‘turtles all the way down’ and each level of order has it own measure of time”. Just as I pointed out in my post about the EEP size difference from one level of order to the next, I should discuss the time difference as well.

I’m sure it is obvious to many who have followed this thread that I am predicting that each EEP in our level of order goes through an accumulation phase (contraction) that is halted when critical capacity is reached, and upon reaching critical capacity the process of negation defeats gravity and the accumulated crunch becomes a big burst that then expands right out of the arena.

If you have followed the threads on the ISU and the EEP you should have noticed that is exactly the same sequence of events that I have predicted for our own universe. In the ISU all of the EEPs in each level of order go through the same sequence of events but in addition to employing vastly differing amounts of energy from one LoO to the next, they carry out the sequence in vastly differing amounts of time from one LoO to the next as well.

I have mentioned in related threads that I predict that the entire crunch/burst process referred to as the “energy to matter to energy” process might take ten or twelve trillion years; lets say twelve trillion years for a complete contraction and expansion for our universe for talking purposes.

An EEP in our universe, predicted to be a 700 trillionth of a single proton would contract and expand in a short period perhaps comparable to a Planck time unit, i.e. the length of time it takes a photon traveling at the speed of light (in a vacuum no less) to cross a distance of 10 to the minus 20 times the diameter of a proton.

Twelve trillion years on our level of order equates to perhaps a Planck unit of time on the next lower level of order. I use Planck units in this post to give a general impression of the length of time and not because I have made any exhaustive calculations to arrive at the time difference for a complete expansion/contraction on either our level of order or on the next lower level of order.

It is worth noting that Planck units will have the same relative relationships on any given LoO, differing in proportion due to the energy/time paradox that exists between levels of order in the ISU. The energy/time paradox is that occupants in different levels of order will experience time as if they were in the same level of order while the absolute energy and time involved are vastly different.

Bogie. It wouls seem that the Tunguska event indicated that fairly solid particles of substantial size exist in the Universe, No? pete

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A third rate theory forbids
A second rate theory explains after the fact
A first rate theory predicts...A. Lomonosov

It would seem so, yes, but in the OP I did say solid was meant to mean infinitely dense. I maintain that no particles involved in the Tunguska event were infinitely dense, and that there are no forces in the universe that can cause infinite density to occur, even in the Planck realm.

If there are no infinitely dense particles, then even the smallest detectable particles must be composed of something undetectable, and that “something” itself cannot be infinitely dense.

Following that thought, if we were able to detect that “something undetectable” we would find that it too was composed of something smaller that was undetectable, and so on to infinity of the infinitesimal.

Bogie

Alas! No solid ideas here either.

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Now now, where would ATM be without ideas of lower density, i.e. not quite solid?

But wait, this thread is not a forum for opinions on ATM ideas in general.

This thread is about the ISU. The ISU is an alternative cosmology. The ISU stands for the Infinite Spongy Universe. The ISU includes our expanding universe and the possibility that ours is just one of an infinite number of similar universes that make up the greater universe.

I believe that anything is possible but that proved science must rule. All matters that pertain to the existing body of scientific knowledge must be consistent with that knowledge and all matters that go beyond the existing body of scientific knowledge are ruled by the ISU Principle of Reasonable and Responsible Speculation. Reasonable and responsible speculation implies that the speculative ideas are simple, logical and not contradictory.

It is permissible to speculate on any matter relative to the universe, infinity, life or God, but any such speculation that pertains to the body of scientific knowledge must be proved with references to fact from that body of scientific knowledge, and any other position is considered theory, speculation, or even personal opinion.

All members are allowed their own opinion on any such speculative ideas but those ideas, like my ideas about the ISU, are subject to an overriding reality. The reality is that there is no proof for positions beyond the body of scientific knowledge. When members freely challenge any such positions then the ATMers must defend them. When the answers in defense of their ATM ideas address positions that are beyond the proved body of scientific knowledge, those answers must be judged as to whether they are reasonable and responsible speculations. If they are deemed not to be reasonable and responsible then the challenger should point out what they consider to be unreasonable and irresponsible and why.

Any challenge that fails to point out what is considered to be unreasonable and irresponsible must be considered an inadequate challenge. Don’t take offense to this post as it is not meant to be argumentative or disrespectful. It is only meant to encourage those with meaningful challenges to the content to state the things that they find unreasonable or irresponsible about the content, and why.

Best regards to BAUT, and I have great respect for the forum and its members.

Why?
I get the distinct impression of erecting a straw man in the form of an infinitely dense particle. Where in the mainstream Big Bang theory is there any requirement for such a beast? My feeble brain needs some help here. Some informative references would be most welcome.

Bogey,

would you consider a black hole as the most "solid" "mass" in this ISU?

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Just because it's complex doesn't mean it's true!

If you can't explain it, then you don't understand it!

Though I wouldn’t call the “solid infinitely dense” particle a straw man, I concede that BBT does not require any infinitely dense particles. However, and to my defense, some BBT advocates refer to the singularity as being infinitely dense and zero volume but such a singularity is really only implied by BBT not required.