My first speculation and I call it reasonable and responsible speculation is that something physical preceded the initial expansion of our observable universe and that something had to be able to exhibit energy to initiate expansion.

Physical: My definition in this context is that anything that is composed of energy is physical. This includes matter in all of its forms, electromagnetic radiation across the full spectrum, and any other form that energy can take.

Energy: My definition in this context is energy can be viewed as a commodity. Matter is 100% energy and so matter is a form of the energy commodity. Electromagnetic radiation consists of photons and in my definition photons are composed of energy. Thermal radiation transferred by conductance is the transfer of energy. Work of any kind is the expression of energy. All of the usages by science of the term energy are also included in this definition.

Space: My definition in this context is space is simply where things happen. It could be empty but never is because the energy density of space equalizes itself to fill all space.

Matter: In this context matter includes matter, electromagnetic radiation, and any other form of energy other than the energy density of space.

Energy density of space: The energy commodity can exist without being tied up in matter or radiation. Energy not tied up in matter or radiation exists as energy density of space. This may or may not be speculation depending on how you interpret that current body of scientific knowledge. If you interpret science as saying energy can exist in space when not being part of the composition of matter or electromagnetic radiation, then energy density of space is not speculation. If you say that science does not include that form of energy then it is an early step in my sequence of responsible speculations. I will address this form of energy in my step by step sequence.

Energy density: In this context energy density has two types. Energy tied up in matter, and energy density of space. Both energy in matter and energy in space exhibit energy density. Energy density is the amount of the commodity divided by the volume of space. Energy tied up in matter and energy in space are “physical” in the context of this ATM thread.

Expansion: In this context expansion is the observed relative motion of the galaxies and local groups of galaxies that are all moving away from each other. Accelerating expansion is the increase in momentum of the change in separation motion of the galaxies moving way from each other in all directions.

Time: In this context the only time that we can empirically measure is time that has past. Time that has past is a continuum. No matter how you measure it there are no measurable increments small enough to match the reality of how time passes. It is a smooth progression. Regardless of Zeno’s Paradox, time passes in infinitesimal increments that defy measurement which simply means it is a continuum. Remember that by my definition, time has already moved before you apply your measurement and you can’t measure in small enough increments to reveal that time is a continuum.

These definitions help define my initial speculation, that something physical preceded the initial expansion of our observable universe and that something had to be able to exhibit energy to initiate expansion. The matter/energy that preceded expansion is referred to as the “entity” for now. The entity preceded the expansion.

My second speculation and I call it reasonable and responsible speculation is that the entity occupied space before the expansion began. This may seem obvious but I say it to clarify that the entity has volume and so it is not infinitely dense.

My third speculation is that the entity was not frozen in time, but that time passed and the entity existed in time and space prior to the beginning of the expansion.

These three speculations set the stage for further simple and responsible steps in a sequence that offers a simple but speculative view of the universe.

To continue from the first three speculations that matter/energy, space and time pre-existed the expansion, I speculate that the entity experienced a past and that the universe itself is always changing, and therefore the entity’s past included change.

It is reasonable to speculate that the “past” experienced by the entity that preceded expansion didn't start out as such a tiny entity but arrived at its tiny pre-expansion volume through change after occupying a different volume.

I am going to speculate that the entity was at is smallest possible volume at the instant that expansion began and that the change in volume that preceded the expansion was contraction. This speculation says that the entity contracted or collapsed before expansion began.

These are simple step by step speculations with accompanying definitions to start this ATM thread about what preceded the expansion of the universe. If you need me to define words that I have used because you can’t understand them in this speculative context which is clearly ATM and far removed from the language and jargon of the mainstream I will be happy to do so.

Your comments would be appreciated. I will continue expanding this ATM thread by building on it with additional step by step speculations. One obvious risk is that any one of the steps could be “not even wrong” in itself and that could make any following steps “not even wrong” as well.

If your comments find such a flaw and you include the “not even wrong” phrase you should be able to explain what is “not even wrong”. I hope you will be willing to enter into a discussion with me about what you see as wrong so that I will understand.

Thank you for any comments. I will take all of them into consideration regarding what has been posted and as (or if) I post additional speculative steps.

In my last post I left off with the speculation (6) that the entity that preceded expansion was at is smallest possible volume at the instant that expansion began and that the change in volume that preceded the expansion was contraction. This speculation says that the entity contracted or collapsed before expansion began.

(7) I further speculate that this pre-existing entity contained the equivalent of the matter and energy that now makes up our expanding universe.

(8) I speculate that prior to completion of the contraction it was a finite amount of matter and energy occupying a larger volume of space, call it an arena of space.

(9) I speculate that an arena containing matter/energy does not contract or collapse without a cause.

(10) I speculate that the cause of the contraction of the arena was gravity, and that the contents of the arena expressed enough gravity to cause all of the matter and energy in the pre-expansion entity to collapse into the tiny pre-expansion volume.

Don’t jump to the conclusion that I am going to speculate that the universe is cyclical and that the same matter and energy goes through alternating periods of contraction and expansion in a continual cycle.

(11) I do speculate that such a cyclical universe would eventually fail. I see that particular cosmology failing because I speculate that a small amount of energy would be irretrievable with each cycle until eventually there wasn’t enough energy to complete the current cycle, leaving it to expand forever or remain collapsed forever, i.e. complete entropy. I speculate that the small amount of irretrievable energy in each cycle is some portion of the electromagnetic radiation emitted during the previous expansion cycle that was not drawn back into the collapsing arena in time for the next cycle and is therefore lost to the cyclical system.

The cyclical universe cosmology has one similarity with the cosmology that I am laying out step by step, and that is the capability of a crunch to become a “bang”, though I prefer to call it a “burst”. The physics of the burst will be introduced as simple sequential steps of speculation.

You can voice objection to any step of speculation. I mean you are invited to actually post on this thread. I know most of you don’t need to be asked to post, but I noticed that no one else has posted yet. I was tempted to call you all spoil sports but I don’t know who would be offended by that even though it would be said in a jovial spirit. I have good intentions here. My only agenda is benign. I want you to tell me what you like or don’t like about my step by step speculations.

Did you notice that I started numbering them? I did that so if anyone wanted to help me out here they could refer to speculations by number. I admit that this is not rocket science or brain surgery. It is more like pulling teeth .

Could I start with just the last point number 11.

What if the observable universe could leak. Not a lot perhaps and as a picture remember the water bubbles that were blown up in the ISS (International Space Station). The universe must have one side at least in four dimension geometry and we consider the outer to be unbounded so that leaves quantum where energy has been 'lost'.

For normal purposes the bubble in our ISS is held by surface tension and is not likely to transmit much temperature either way if room and bubble are similarly matched. I agree with you entirely that without some mechanism it may be very difficult to maintain a harmonic cyclical universe. Another factor might be the ability of an edge to be a conductor or the medium either side to receive or transmit.

A well thought out post. (I am wrong about the electroweak interaction the power difference was way out ... and the quantum nuclear weak force like the nuclear strong force has no distance effect. Apparently distance applies only to the electromagnetic force. If I then suggested splitting that I would be in trouble. And thank you Bogie for all the links that put in, cheers )

Thank you Michael. Number 11 was negative in the sense I presented it, saying why I didn’t see the cyclical universe avoiding entropy to contrast it with my view where entropy is defeated. I inserted it because the first 10 steps might have implied that I was going there and because the community is very astute, they might have assumed the whole thread would lead to that dead end.

You picked up on the “leak” which can be applied to many scenarios which is right. I already think that our observable universe, a finite arena of space, loses its energy over time, but it is not lost to the greater universe just like it is not actually lost to the universe in the cyclical model. But as opposed to the cyclical model in which some EM just drifts away and contributes to entropy of the cycle, in my model there is only one expansion phase per arena.

Expansion and energy density equalization are linked. Once an arena has expanded until the energy density equalizes with the low energy density surrounding it and its contents have drifted off, it is no longer an individual arena. Its contents, galaxies, black holes, dust etc. still have momentum even after equalization because they formed during the expansion before equalization occurred and momentum was imparted to the matter as it formed. After equalization of the energy density, the galaxies, black holes, etc. are mixed and merged with the similar remnants from similar arenas that have also expanded until equalized. That is where gravity takes over, out there where the energy density of space is equalized and remnants from arenas are mixing and swirling, where it causes new arenas to form and collapse.

But I'm getting way ahead, call it a preview of steps 1001 to 1010 .

I left off with (11) pointing out that I am not describing a cyclical universe cosmology and I speculate that such a cyclical universe with repeating crunch/bang cycles would eventually fail. (See post two (11) for more on why I speculate it fails)

(12) The speculations 6, 7 and 10 describe an entity containing matter and energy equivalent to our expanding universe crunched down to the smallest possible volume by gravity. Visualizing such an entity, I see it as a black hole equivalent to the matter and energy of our entire expanding universe. I’m renaming the “entity” an Ultimate Black Hole (UBH).


(13) I speculate that there is some as yet undiscovered physics that caused the UBH to begin to expand which I will speculate about step by step. When I say “begin to expand” I am referring to the event. Not a big bang because “Big Bang” is a misnomer in that the name was tagged onto Einstein’s GTR as a criticism, and GTR does not include the big bang at all. The “event” is the result of some undiscovered physics that characterized the UBH once it reached the pre-expansion density.

At this juncture I have considered the cause of the initial expansion as one of several versions of new physics.

New UBH physics to cause the expansion that we observe -
Option 1:
Since the contents of the UBH has not been defined except to refer to it as matter/energy, one option is that the matter/energy that entered the UBH was actually galaxies, black holes, electromagnetic radiation, cosmic dust, etc, similar to what we discuss as the content of black holes and super-massive black holes in our observable universe. In this case the UBH might simply represent an arena great enough to include enough cosmic material in the form of galaxies, black holes, SMBHs, etc. to be equal to the content our expanding universe. The UBH reaches some limit imposed by the density of the accumulating UBH and the undiscovered physics takes over to initiate the expansion.

Option 2:
Another option is that the UBH formed from some plasma that occupied the arena before the collapse. Such plasma may be considered to be the nature of all space prior to the collapse, and if not for some undiscovered physics the entire universe might have collapsed into our UBH. This option includes as yet missing physics that imposes a limit to the amount of plasma that can accumulate in a UBH before some event occurs that causes the expansion.

Option 3:
And a third option I’ll mention is that all space has energy density that can be affected by energy density fluctuations. Our entire universe may be at the center of such an energy density fluctuation of the exact proportions of our expanding universe or even at an intersection of two such fluctuations. Once the energy density reaches a certain limit the undiscovered physics takes over and initiates expansion.

Of course there are other options and you should feel free to suggest them.

My task was to speculate about missing physics that would be operative in each of those three options and chose from among them the option that offered the simplest and most responsible explanation of the new physics.

(14) All three options above could utilize that same undiscovered physics. I speculate that the undiscovered physics that caused the UBH to begin to expand includes a limit on the density of the UBH. The more matter and energy accumulated in the UBH, the higher the energy density. I speculate that the new physics is activated when the energy density limit is achieved and the UBH has achieved what I call “critical capacity”.

(1 – 14) I have presented step by step speculation that space, matter and energy preceded the beginning of the expansion of the observable universe. I have speculated that the entity that preceded the beginning of the expansion was matter and energy in an extremely high energy density environment which I labeled an ultimate black hole (UBH). The UBH had formed from the collapsed matter from a larger volume of space and was therefore surrounded by that larger volume of space after the collapse. The energy density of the UBH was defined as near infinite energy density when it achieved critical capacity, the limit placed on the density of energy by the physics of the UBH.

(15) It is reasonable to speculate that the energy density of the surrounding space was very low relative to the extremely high energy density of the UBH. This condition is speculated because after the collapse and before the expansion, all of the matter and energy was in a tiny and very dense UBH, while before the collapse the same amount of matter and energy occupied the vastly larger arena of space. This relationship seems obvious but I state it to paint the landscape at the beginning of the expansion that follows.

(16) I speculate that the new physics activated by critical capacity causes matter and energy within a UBH to undergo change that marks the point of no return and leads to the destruction the UBH.

(17) I speculate that because of the undiscovered physics that matter cannot retain its identity meaning that protons, electrons, photons, quarks, any particles composed of energy are reduced to their energy content at the near infinite energy density of the UBH. I call this new physics the process of “negation”.

An update to definitions:

Energy: My definition in this context is energy can be viewed as a commodity. Matter is 100% energy and so matter is a form of the energy commodity. Electromagnetic radiation consists of photons and in my definition photons are composed of energy. Thermal radiation transferred by conductance is the transfer of energy. Work of any kind is the expression of energy. Energy in the form of matter can be negated within an ultimate black hole.

Matter: In this context matter includes matter, electromagnetic radiation, and any other form of energy other than the energy density of space. Anything considered to be a particle in the context of the standard particle model is included. The graviton, if it existed and if it was not itself the unifying particle that unifies all forces, would be considered matter. Energy quanta are not considered matter but instead are an energy commodity and make up the energy density of space.

Energy density: In this context energy density has two types. Energy tied up in matter, and energy density of space. Energy density of space has no mass. Energy negated from matter at the core of an ultimate black hole is in the energy type called energy density of space. Both energy in matter and energy in space exhibit energy density. Energy density is the amount of the commodity divided by the volume of space. Energy tied up in matter and energy in space are “physical” in the context of this ATM thread. Negated matter has energy density that makes up the space at the core of a UBH.

Negation: Matter to energy transformation occurs as a result of the new physics activated within an ultimate black hole (UBH). The negated energy is equivalent to the energy in the negated matter. During negation the type of energy tied up in matter is transformed to the type of energy called energy density of space. Matter is composed of energy and when negated, the resulting commodity of energy density of space is equivalent to the energy that was tied up in matter. To achieve this equivalence there is an energy quanta and matter is composed of energy in quantum increments. Negated energy is equivalent to the energy quanta released from matter.

(18) I speculate that there is equivalence between the energy in the core of the UBH and the energy that was tied up in the matter that was negated.

(19) I speculate that there is an energy quantum that enables the equivalence of energy tied up in matter to energy density in space.

(20) I speculate that matter is composed of energy in quantum increments.

(21) I speculate that the energy in an energy quantum is the vehicle of equivalence between all forms of energy and matter.

(22) I speculate that energy quanta have physics that enables them to carry power and transfer that power from matter to energy density of space when matter is negated.

(23) I speculate that the ability to carry power is derived from the energy density fluctuation exhibited by energy quanta that can be visualized as a contraction and expansion in the volume of each energy quantum.

(24) I speculate that the negated energy density at the core will increase until the energy quanta become locked and cannot contract or expand.

(25) I speculate that the power of the Locked energy quanta becomes potential expansion energy that will be unlocked at the destruction of the UBH.

(26) I speculate that negation begins and is focused at the core of the UBH where the energy density rises the fastest.

(27) I speculate that energy in the form of locked energy quanta at the core of the UBH does not have mass and does not exert gravity.

(28) I speculate that the energy quanta locked in the UBH represent the energy content of the negated matter in the ratio of E = MC ^2 and they occupy the tiniest possible space at the highest possible energy density exhibiting only potential expansion energy that increases as negation proceeds and that is retained until they are unlocked.

(29) I speculate that the UBH that has achieved critical capacity cannot avoid destruction because once the process of negation is set in motion there are no forces that can stop it. The destruction is initiated by the loss of mass at the locked core. Eventually the gravity expressed by the UBH diminishes to the point that the potential expansion energy overcomes the gravity.

(30) I speculate that when the potential expansion energy is released the expression of the expansion phase of the energy quanta just released causes the volume of the released energy density of space to increase so fast that any matter in the space surrounding the burst is negated and that negated energy joins the expansion.

I call this release of the energy density of space locked inside the UBH the “burst” of a UBH.

That is how the expansion of our observable universe began.


Note about the initial expansion: In the context of expansion before matter formed and before any structure appeared I speculate that the expansion is characterized by energy density equalization. In this context energy density equalization is expressed by a lowering of the energy density of an arena containing high energy density as the energy density is equalized with the low energy density of the space surrounding the arena. Energy density equalization occurs across the entire expanding arena so that the energy density of space within the arena is continually equalizing as it expands.

Note about the arena: The volume of space that will eventually be occupied by the locked quanta that emerge when the UBH is destroyed is equivalent to the size of the arena from which the UBH was accumulated. The content of the expanded arena will be similar to the content of the arena that collapsed, include similar galaxies, black holes, SMBHs, cosmic dust (plasma) etc. as matter reforms during expansion.

Note about the momentum of matter: The matter that forms during expansion has the momentum of the expansion imparted to it and all matter that forms is initially moving away from all other matter that forms. This momentum is preserved as gravity causes the particles that form to combine and form groups. The preserved momentum of the resulting galaxies etc. carries them into the equalized space beyond the arena after the energy density of the arena has been fully equalized with the surrounding space. Out there in the equalized space of the greater universe the galactic remnants etc. swirl and mix … perhaps combining the remnants of many past arenas as considered in Option 1 above and restated here:

New UBH physics to cause the expansion that we observe -
Option 1:
Since the contents of the UBH has not been defined except to refer to it as matter/energy, one option is that the matter/energy that entered the UBH was actually galaxies, black holes, electromagnetic radiation, cosmic dust, etc, similar to what we discuss as the content of black holes and super-massive black holes in our observable universe. In this case the UBH might simply represent an arena great enough to include enough cosmic material in the form of galaxies, black holes, SMBHs, etc. to be equal to the content our expanding universe. The UBH reaches some limit imposed by the density of the accumulating UBH and the undiscovered physics takes over to initiate the expansion.

Dude... Bogie.
Take a moment to breath before you pass out on the floor man.

Thanks Neverfly … Ooooooooooommmmmmm, oooooooooooommmmmmmmmmm. There, I feel much better and I’m sitting up now which is an improvement to being sprawled out on the floor.

You tried to get me to talk ‘energy field’ on one of the Q&A threads and I said it was more ATM. I couldn’t do it without saying what there is about the observable universe that makes me think there has to be energy density of space that consists of the same ‘energy’ that makes up matter. The energy quanta enable the equivalence between the energy composition of matter and any energy that can be extracted from matter, a common denominator. Many believe that added physics are required to explain the universe; mine enables the expansion. There is no simpler way that I have come across to explain how the expansion began. And that is a challenge to anyone who can do better and I’m sure many are in the community who could. Do it in simple steps for me.

The concept of the energy field as I call it, (energy density and energy density equalization), offer a simple connection between matter formation, gravity, expansion, and the crunch/burst that I described in this thread.

Thanks for suggesting the deep breaths. What is more likely to put me on the floor is the balloon analogy and spacetime. I know I come off as an uninformed outsider by saying that spacetime, and therefore GR don’t satisfy my needs. When I say that I know there is a chorus that says that the universe is not interested in my needs.

I hear you but sometimes you have to venture out into the lonely corners of the community to get a glimpse beyond the boundary (what science says we don’t or can’t know). For me the place to start is a cause of the expansion and so I did it myself. I admit I’m at the fence, the question is am I looking out or looking in ?

So there you have it. The cause of the initial expansion, some new physics about an energy field, rejection of spacetime, rejection of the cyclical model, the defeat of entropy … my needs are getting filled.

Of course there is the matter of updating how matter forms from the expanding high energy density environment. And how gravity works. But then I still have three weeks and this an ATM thread … maybe I will add new content to those ideas and climb those fences again (for my own satisfaction and for the CD-R ).

Ode to the Ultimate Black Hole (UBH)

They form, they burst, they get dispersed,
Their remnants clutter space.

But then again that’s not the end
Though no burst is retraced.

As in and out arenas go
Just like they’re being chased,

Each swirling merging remnant finds
Its own new UBH.

Ode to the Quantum and Sub-quanta

The quantum forms, the quantum bursts,
Sub-quanta clutter space.

But then again that’s not the end,
Though no burst is retraced.

And in and out the quanta go,
Just like they’re being chased.

Swirling merging sub-quanta
In quantum find their place.

Well said both of you. I read an analogy one time that no matter how thin and how long it took an even spread of any quantity would form an event horizon if large enough. The example used water and said if a galaxy was filled with water it would collapse into the most enormous black hole. And yes this is not the forum to talk about fields ... maybe not mainstream or ATM.

Now thinking on original conditions a space of any dimension ... one or above that held a uniformity of energy or matter would need to resonate (well at least the idea resonates with me). Space is not empty, zero point energy confirms that. So a pre condition with an almost empty, vast space would need to collapse to form the initial or starting conditions for the big bang ... you have got my vote even if it is not mainstream.

If the collapse caused an event horizon that encapsulated all of the energy of our universe it could be based on the time relative to the near zero of the pre universe space and seem almost instantaneous ... especially if it broke away and was like a universe segment or sheet or higher.

Now that would indicate a size start if from another dimension and sort of really makes a mess of singularity t=0 see diagram ... when did time really start?


Bogie you have definitely put a lot of thought, a lot of thought indeed into this idea. I want to read this thread a few more times and yes I think it is off to a great start, cheers

Thank you Michael. I hope you like my next post.

Prerequisite to matter formation

What emerges from the UBH is not matter because matter cannot retain its form at this near infinite energy density which is characterized by locked quanta at the core. Matter has been negated to the densest form of energy density possible.

Energy density of space must be more fully explained at this point so that when I move on to matter formation, the mechanics of energy density as they relate to matter formation will be on the table. Energy density is difficult to explain because as it is explained one can just see the audience falling asleep. Energy density is not the way energy is taught so few have learned it this way and it is not an easy concept because it is contrary to much that is taught. I will speak about it as if what I say is true and you can take it for what it’s worth to you.

In this essay I will not use the step by step responsible speculation process so that I can shorten the time it takes to get this written. Later I may do the step by step if anyone thinks it will be helpful (I know, ).

First a few general statements about the energy density of space, and about energy, since that is really what the energy density of space is. Energy fills all space.

What is energy that it can fill all space?

(32) Energy is a continuum of energy density in space. As in the definition of time that I wrote in the OP, energy too is a continuum, a continuum of density. There is no increment small enough to measure the smallest amount of energy that can occupy a space. No matter how little energy is in a space, it can be further divided. If there is space there will be energy in it. There is no empty space.

(33) The amount of energy that can occupy a given space ranges from almost none, to almost an infinite amount. Almost an infinite amount is a phrase that means that nothing can be infinitely dense, i.e. nothing can have infinite energy density. There is a limit to the maximum energy density. The maximum energy density occurs at the core of a UBH. The limit is imposed by critical capacity. The phrase “almost an infinite amount” means maximum energy density.

(34) Matter is composed of energy in quantum increments. But energy does not sit around in space in quantum increments waiting for its turn to occupy matter.

(35) It occupies all space and when the energy density of the space that it occupies is at the right density, matter can form. It is convenient to view the matter formation energy density as approximately that of liquid hydrogen. It is not liquid hydrogen but the density of the energy is similar and it contains approximately the energy equivalent of the same volume of liquid hydrogen. There are no protons or electrons in it before matter forms; it is made up of the energy equivalent in the form of energy density of space at a point on the energy density continuum.

(36) Energy as it emerges from the UBH is at the density of just plain solid through and through … near infinitely dense but there is no adhesion. There is potential expansion energy because so much energy is confined in such a small space. Potential expansion energy becomes expansion energy when the UBH burst occurs and energy density equalization begins between the emerging near infinitely dense energy and the very low energy density of the surrounding space.

(37) Now I have explained that energy is a continuum of energy density and that though matter forms in quantum increments and is negated into the energy density equivalent of the matter that got negated, it must be said that the negated quanta are no longer individual quanta, they are part of the near infinitely dense energy of space inside the UBH.

(38) And it must be said that “locked quanta” are really just energy density of space at the far end of the energy density continuum, not individual quanta. The nearly infinite energy density, the density at which I said quanta get locked is a limit imposed by the physics of energy density. That limit simply stated is that nothing can be infinitely dense.

(39) When I speak of energy composing matter in quantum increments I often refer to the quanta as being composed of sub-quanta. This is because there is a set of physics peculiar to matter and when describing the action of the energy quantum when tied up in matter it is convenient to refer to sub-quanta. It is a reference to the energy density fluctuation that occurs as an energy quantum pulses.

(40) Any amount of energy could be the operative increment, but what ever increment is operative, that is the quantum amount that has to be converted from the energy density of space to form each increment of energy tied up in matter. Every quantum tied up in matter requires an amount of space determined by the physics of matter. The quantum fills that required space as it fills its role and the volume of that space fluctuates as the physics of how matter works play out. Speaking of energy sub-quanta allows me to speak of the change in volume of the quanta, and later it will be convenient when discussing the way that particles exhibit their charge.

(41) But it isn’t necessary for the energy amount of the quantum to be re-established with each expanding arena when matter reforms. The amount of the operative quantum already is established even before any matter forms within the arena.

(42) You may not like me saying this, any of this really, but what I am going to say next in particular. Matter has always existed. Energy can’t help but form matter, and it can’t help it either that matter when formed activates gravity. Matter forms in the expansion of an arena of energy density that emerged from a UBH that formed because gravity took hold of the remnant galaxies, black holes, etc. after the energy density of many other preceding arenas became equalized with the energy density of the surrounding greater universe. The remnants of those previously equalized arenas were set free to mix and merge in the greater universe.

(43) Why can’t energy help it that matter forms from it?

It is because the average energy density of space is too high to allow it to become equalized without matter forming, and energy seeks energy density equalization.

The existence of matter lowers the energy density of space because there is a huge amount of energy tied up in matter and there is a significant saving of space in the process. In fact, the relationship of E = MC^2 is determined by the average energy density of space.

(44) When I say that matter has always existed, you can add that energy is indestructible and has always existed, and the ratio of matter to the energy density of space is always the same on a grand scale.

(45) So why doesn’t the required amount of matter just form and let energy density get equalized and then both energy and matter will be in balance forever?

It is because energy can’t help it that when matter forms, gravity becomes activated. Gravity brings matter to its energy density limit and critical capacity limits the amount of matter that it takes to cause a UBH to burst.

From here I will discuss matter formation in the light of this post and then gravity in the light of matter formation and the energy field which is simply the energy density of space.

Yes that about nails it for me in an energy density space. Like exploding the bomb underwater. The fireball expands from within the compression event horizon to the maximum size ... initial inflation 130,000 years.

Are you happy with this next idea? It cools very rapidly and shrinks ... dark epoch to 400,000 or so years in a second compression within the event horizon to form a quantum foam of cold compressed energy and matter if you like. The balance state ensures consistency. The matter surface of the quantum foam is the boundary of the universe and is in balance with the energy. The background heat is the universe heating up again.

I don't know about mainstream but that is more in keeping with the dark epoch than it is just some strange phenomena that happened. If that has taken you a little off the track you may be planning I will just point out a famous experiment and then stop.

It would mean that any Michelson - Morley type experiment needs to be able to pick the interference pattern at the edge of the boundary of matter ... not between matter. Secondly the energy would be enormous due to the need to overcome the inertia of matter ... the idea is that the inertia is due to it being moved along the edge of the universe.

Defining matter is that it should exist freely hence Wikipedia here

If it ain't there it don't matter. So you can't just grab one and heat it to see if it gets heavier by E=m.c^2

Thank you Michael. I have also received PMs about this thread. Let me start by addressing the difficulty of the Ultimate Black Hole causing the expansion.

"Right off the bat, I'm having trouble with the Ultimate Black Hole."

"I disagree that Gravity held the Primordial Universe together..."

These are understandable views that go against the UBH speculation.

My view of gravity would mean that the UBH initially would exert the same gravitational effect as GR predicts (with its warped spacetime theory).

The view that an ultimate black hole with such an extreme gravitational field could have been the source of the expansion that we observe is not just ATM, it would be unfathomable if gravity was caused by warped spacetime, i.e. if the mathematical GTR model was somehow operative in reality instead on just in formulas.

That is because in GR, the warping is caused by the total energy occupying the space that is causing the warp. But in my view, there are characteristics of mass that enable gravity and if those characteristics are lost when energy is negated from matter as I have speculated, then the gravitational field of the UBH would be diminished over time, while the energy build up in the core would increase over time. Eventually the UBH would not be able to contain the near infinitely dense energy.

Take another look at my speculations about energy. If energy were a continuum of density, and almost any amount of energy could occupy a very tiny space as I described, and if as I speculate, matter can be converted back into energy when it is compressed to less than the volume of space needed for the physics of matter to operate, i.e negation, then the UBH is doomed to "burst" and expansion of the trapped energy density would occur.

Ode to matter and energy, the continuum of course

The quantum comes from energy;
Continuum of course.

The quantum increments you see,
Give matter all its force.

When married into matter form,
The quanta can’t divorce,

Until negation sets them free,
They can’t rejoin their source.

I know that I should have elaborated on this statement a little more, “…in my view, there are characteristics of mass that enable gravity …”.

You may or may not have read that statement to mean that I speculate that energy in the form of mass exerts gravity, but when mass is converted to its equivalent energy, it does not exert gravity.

What I meant to speculate was that energy in the form of mass exerts gravity, but when mass is converted to its equivalent energy it does not.

Sure the ultimate black hole is going to be a problem. Maybe it is the variation of the density that it was in before the UBH formed.

The extreme density that we have now equivalent to more than enough to kick start the universe at any point within it suggests it is contained or we are in such an immense universe that due to its sheer size it just could not possibly exist.

If there was a hole or lack of containment of the energy density the drain would be so amazingly quick ... normal, normal, normal - freeze - gone ... all over. If it was the case the universe by any standard really has been here quite a few billion years too long for that to be a serious threat.

So how about an ultimate black hole vastly larger than the universe, well initially anyway. Due to vibration and harmonics even in a much less density system of sufficient size could cause little bubbles dense enough to 'break away' and crumple to form our tiny much more dense (even at it greatest size) universe.

It means the potential for other universes and a separation of connection for a while from the original much lower density pre-universe. Does that sort of make any sense or help at all?

Cheers

Why not. There are no limits to what is allowed in the speculation game .

Actually, by describing the UBH as the energy equivalent of our expansing universe, and speculating that there is physics that limits the size of a UBH, I have the simplest entity required to precede expansion.

Such an entity is of minimum size to contain our whole universe.
Such an entity obeys the simplest new physics as it begins to self-destruct at that capacity explaining why the entire universe doesn't collapse into it.
Such an entity avoids the cyclical universe cosmology that fails eventually to continue the cycle due to "leakage" because it is only part of a potentially infinite greater universe and returns its contents to the greater universe.
Such an entity defeats entropy because it is a finite entity within a potentially infinite greater universe and it draws and returns its contents from and to the greater universe where other UBHs have always formed from the remnants of various previous UBH arenas that have played out.

The new physics of energy density of space then plays well with expansion, matter formation, and the cause of gravity.

In my view these factors combine as the reasonable and responsible minimum speculation required to explain the cause of expansion.

This thread looks more like a filibuster than a serious exercise in scientific lines of thought.

I can't disagree with you on that.

I have mentioned that it is about reasonable speculation about the cause of the expansion of our observable universe, not science.

You may wonder why I bother since there is no way to prove any of this, and the speculations center around new physics that aren't popular in the scientific community.

But the cause of the expansion had to incorporate as yet unknown physics.

The cause of the cause needs to be a path backward that doesn't require something from nothing and that can be considered to allow time to be infinite backward, i.e. the universe can't come to an end or it already would have.

The whole set of speculations and new physics have to work together without inconsistencies and in responsible steps beyond known science.

This is not a job for the timid or the easily discouraged. It is mostly a personal effort but a few have shown interest and they contribute. The final product will really be a starting point for me. Sometimes I want to work on it and sometimes I force myself to work on it.

Compulsion? Yes, but I have decided to get it finished and to put it on a CD-r, so I can move on to form my views on DNA and life, consciousness, thought and mind ... Oh boy.

It is all speculation. A lot of ground has been covered from early thread here at BAUT about the EEP.

Then came the Infinite Spongy Universe, speculation that everything is composed of energy, and the effort to define energy in a whole new context that would enable the ISU. That concept is the energy density of space and the speculation that space is a continuum of energy density as mentioned a few posts back.

Matter of course would then have to be composed of energy, and energy in and out of matter needs to be equivalent so I define the energy quantum to enable equivalence. Matter is composed of energy in quantum increments.

The scenario working backward requires matter and energy to be convertible, not just in matter to matter interactions, but in the formation and destruction of matter on a scale equivalent to our expanding universe.

New physics that can cause energy to matter to energy should also have a part in gravity. The energy density of space, my concept of it anyway, interacts with matter to cause gravity.

Energy expansion and matter formation occur simultaneously and matter is imparted initial momentum from the expanding energy.

Expansion and gravity occur simultaneously but expansion energy is converted to momentum of the matter that forms in it. Gravity in the early period after matter formation plays a huge role in the structure of the universe.

As the momentum of matter is conserved and the galaxies that form from it reflect the momentum of the particles that formed during expansion and so the galaxies move away from each other.

The high energy density of space in the expanding arena is eventually spent as matter forms from it and as it is equalized with the lower energy density of space in the surrounding greater universe.

The matter that formed during the expansion is carried by its momentum out into the greater universe.

Expanding arenas like ours are playing out all the time across the potentially infinite universe and so the space between active arenas is littered with the remnants of previous arenas.

From the litter of galaxies, black holes, etc. that reside in the space between active arenas, new arenas form. Gravity draws remnants form various previous arenas into crunches which form ultimate black holes and the process continues.

It only takes simple new physics of energy density of space to enable all of that.

It would be rough if speculation got attacked. One does have to start somewhere and build to a point where an idea is formed enough to be presented (attacked with glee, questioned and so on ).

I speculated that the proton is itself a wormhole that connects to either itself in another charged linked reverse-time like line or connected to a different other end anti-proton anti-charge same time like line. That is what I meant about matter being on the edge of the universe and so requiring energy to overcome inertia or introduce momentum. Curious concept.

Something I did remember from an old chart at school was that in space the earth had a free weight of only 22 lbs for all of its mass. I don't know if that is entirely correct but it looked interesting at the time.

First you say it is not about science. Later you say the speculations center around new or perhaps unknown physics.

It is my understanding that physics is within the realm of science. Please explain.

That is deep thinking Michael. I don't even know what a wormhole is or how it could be linked in either of those ways.

This is how I speculate that a proton works:

The proton is a pretty perfect piece of combined energy quanta. You may remember that I speculated that there are ~700 billion EEPs which I have been referring to as energy quanta in a proton and ~380 million in an electron when they form from the energy density of space.

Now my ideas of matter formation are in the process of being updated with the improved energy density of space "continuum" concept. Protons are made of quantum increments of energy and a forming proton will add increments until the configuration is so perfect that not one more quantum can be added. The figure is still speculated at ~700 billion but is subject to change with the matter formation re-write.

The surface of the proton is where the outside action is. Internally the quanta are continually contracting and expanding and with each pulse they exchange sub-quanta among themselves (see the Ode to the Quantum and Sub-Quanta ). On the surface though the exchange of sub-quanta can come either from quanta within the proton or from quanta provided by the electron.

Quanta on the surface of a proton are pulsing just like they are inside and with each pulse there is an exchange of sub-quanta. The catch is that any sub-quanta accepted by quanta on the surface of the proton that come from the energy of the electron would be added to the total internal proton quanta count and because the internal quanta count was already complete, the sub-quanta that were accepted from the outside in one phase of the pulse of the surface quanta are released back to the electron with the next pulse, i.e. rejected by the proton.

The amount of energy in the environment in which the proton exists determines the degree to which the surface quanta end up accepting sub-quanta from the electron, and it follows that the amount of sub-quanta released back to the electron on the next pulse equals the amount accepted.

Funny thing is though that when the sub-quanta are accepted into the proton, in that instant the electron is replenished by sub-quanta from the surrounding electrons or from the energy density of space. When the proton releases the accepted sub quanta, the energy level of the electron increases.

Therefore there is a build of energy in the electron as the proton pumps more and more accepted and released sub-quanta into the electron and as the electron replaces the sub-quanta from outside every time the proton accepts them. There is an exchange of energy among groups of atoms that compose matter due to energy density equalization, so the surface of an object of matter is where most of the inflow of energy enters.

When the electron reaches a point where the accumulated extra sub-quanta are greater than the accumulated sub-quanta in surrounding electrons, sub-quanta are moved around among the atoms in photon packets, and when the atoms on the surface of the object have extra quanta then photons are emitted from the object as the extra energy is released.

If you can see wormholes in how this works then maybe I have helped.

It was a supposition to fit a dimension structure I had in mind. But as I could not prove anything, or suggest anything that has not already been tested it had to stay a supposition .

It was just curious enough to add in. I do like the exact defining of quanta.

Again it may seem an odd idea but over something as vast and time differentiated as our observable universe isn't it so absolutely amazing how totally regular and reliable the fundamentals that compose matter are. Now that is not to throw any spanners, it is an observation, I think a very good one. Of all the variables in the universe the fundamental composition of matter is the most stable thing there is, cheers

Hi Hornblower. I remember when you suggested that when I wrote against the existence of "solid particles" that I was creating a straw man. I defended myself and you never replied back.

You point out that physics is in the realm of science and if I am speculating about new physics then such speculation is science.

Assuming that I get the last word again, I bet if we ran a poll using the new physics that I suggest in this thread that the outcome would be that my speculations are not science.

Yes. It is amazing. You bring up an interesting subject when you distinguish between the stability of matter, let's say of the proton, and all of the variables.

I attribute it to the physics of matter.

Matter forms in quantum increments.

Each particle including the quanta that I describe require a particular amount of space in order to work properly in any form of matter.

Deny the particle its required space and the particle will fail to operate.

That is the principle behind the formation of neutrons, and nucleosynthesis in stars.

It is also the principle that I speculate is behind the negation of matter inside a big crunch (ultimate black hole or UBH).

The stability of matter, especially of the proton comes from just how perfect the configuration of the quanta have to be to enable the physics of matter. Matter is stable until it stops functioning as matter .

I questioned. You answered. I had no further need or desire to discuss that topic. End of story.

What does that have to do with this thread?

Nothing, I just thought if I said it you would respond to what I said about whether I think this thread is science of not.

I said I don't because most people here don't consider my speculations to be science.

In my private messages yesterday there was a very kind and blunt message from someone who reads my stuff telling me that it is very hard to follow, it jumps around, and it is hard to relate it back to any understandable science. The parts that are somewhat understandable are too far out for anyone to want to touch and if I am serious about my speculations I need to get serious about how I convey them.

You have to appreciate that kind of advice and listen to it. It isn’t the first time it has been said so since I haven’t been able to correct the situation and since I still seem to want to post about my speculations, I deserve to be told how it is from your side of the fence.

So today I am going to try to lay out the naked truth that underpins these unbelievable speculations and about why it is almost impossible to convey them to you in an understandable fashion.

My first difficulty is that those very areas where we admit that we just don’t know are the areas where I am going in full speed with one speculation after another. It has to make you laugh and cry at the same time .

Everyone has their own reasons for doing things. Sometimes we wouldn’t do them ourselves but we are sort of amused by the very fact that someone felt compelled to do them.

Having people look at my speculations that way would be great, but it is completely understandable that you might look at them in the same way that the private messenger reveals.