The problem with the Big Bang Theory is that the Big Bang didn’t happen. What did happen, is happening and will happen, is Galaxy Spin.
Like satellites around planets, and planets around stars, and stars around the galaxy, the galaxies themselves are turning in orbit.
The Big Bang is based on three premises. One, there is cosmic background radiation everywhere; and two, the galaxies are going away from each other causing their light to be red shifted, and three there is an abundance of lighter materials.
With billions of stellar furnaces, quasars, novae, super novae; present and through billions of years in the past,it would be surprising if there weren’t background radiation. As for the galaxies flying red shifted off to Neverland as the Big Bang tells you, it’s not happening.
The red shift is caused because our galaxy in its’ orbit travels faster than some, thus the red shift, and slower than others, again the red shift.
But there are also blue shift galaxies, ones that are coming toward us. With everything being blown apart by the Big Bang, how do they explain that? Well, they don’t. What is happening is we are gaining on some detected galaxies that are in an outer orbit, thus the blue shift, and some on an inside orbit are gaining on us, again the blue shift.
If you believe in the Big Bang theory you have to believe in large sums of dark matter and dark energy. Dark matter because the light from distant galaxies is shifting; and something has to be making it shift. Dark energy because as the galaxies go away from each other they are accelerating, and, well there must be some energy causing them to accelerate. Nobody seems to know what dark matter and dark energy is.
There is no dark matter. What is causing the light to shift is that the galaxies are turning in their orbit around a central unknown I call Tipperary because it’s a long, long way to go. And as for the galaxies accelerating to infinity and … They are not.
This is what’s happening. Say you are in a car going ten miles an hour, and another car next to you is going ten miles an hour. There is no acceleration going on. But say the car next to you takes an off ramp. Then suddenly it appears to one another that the other car is going faster and faster, even though you are still both going ten miles an hour. Every galaxy is on its own off ramp appearing to be accelerating, but it’s still going its same orbital speed following the orbital laws of Kepler.
How far away is this central unknown, Tipperary? No telling. If we were to compare it to our place in our galaxy: the distance to the nearest star; Proxima Centauri is 4.2 light years. The distance to the center of our galaxy 182,400 light years, which gives a multiplication factor of 43,428. The distance to the nearest galaxy; Andromeda is 2.2 million light years. Multiplying 2.2 million by 43,428 gives a distance to the center of galaxy spin as 95.5 billion light years. It could be a lot closer or a lot further. As of now we can only see less than fourteen billion light years; we are going to need better glasses before we see Tipperary.
I call this galaxy spin entity a Whirly; I call this Whirly we are in the “S.R.T.E. Whirly”. Are there other Whirlies out there? Logically. All spinning around something even bigger.
It’s time to place the Big Bang theory where it belongs, next to the flat earth theory. I expect my theory to be validated in the very near future when the Large Binocular Telescope comes on line. It is supposed to see to 14 billion light years and the WMAP puts the universe at 13.7 billion light years with a 1% probability of error. Out to 14 billion light years and further all they will see is more galaxies.
If you would like to see my demonstration, it is on YouTube as (Big Bang A Bust). I would appreciate any comments (rants or raves) you may have.
Sincerely, Jeff Mitchell (The Galaxy Spin Guy)

So this should be in ATM.
Sounds like a good start to me.
Yes; it would be surprising since it has been found.
And for whirlys you have to believe in the lack of research.

Ok; I'm tired and not an expert, so I will leave with one question. What evidence do you have, and what do we need to research to prove your theory?

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Welcome to the BAUT forum jeff Mitchell.

You placed this message in the About BAUT section, but it really belonged in the Against The Mainstream section. Here in ATM, you'll be expected to answer questions that other readers ask about your extraordinary claims here.

I suspect that some of your numbers will be called into question, so I suggest you start by making sure know where these numbers came from.

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To answer your question about proving my theory, it will take a more powerful telescope than we have today to see Tipperary. Perhaps the new Square Kilometer Array. Needless to say I believe the new telescopes will see beyond the 13.7 billion light years wmap claims the universe to be. As for my numbers being correct, they come from the Large Binocular Telescope website and the NASA WMAP website.

There's a lot of sky out there to look at. Do you have any idea which direction "Tipperary" lies? Any idea how you would even start to find this direction?

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The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

Where is Tipperary? Like you say there is a lot of sky. It would be like determining where the center of our galaxy is by looking at individual stars.

But there *is* a way to find the center of the galaxy, isnt there? We devised that way even before actually observing the center of the galaxy.

Do you have any method of figuring out where that "Tipperary" is? How would we find it and prove the theory correct? This is a necessary part of devising a good scientific theory - figuring out the "How to prove it" and figuring out what would prove it WRONG.

Otherwise it's not quite relevant as a scientific theory.

How could we find this Tipperary? hypothetically, even.. lets say you have the most powerful telescope out there.. where would you look? how would you 'recognize' that you found it?

I admit I am unaware of any method of determining the center of the galaxy without actually seeing it. I would be grateful if you could turn me on to that. You could perhaps use Kepler's orbital laws but that would take an extremely long time. The sun takes 240 million years to go around once. The galaxies would take much longer. My theory can be disproved very readily by the new telescopes soon to be coming on line. If there is nothing out there past 13.7 billion light years (NASA WMAP number) I will post my sincere apology for being a crackpot.

Hint #1: Go out to the country on a clear night and look up the sky. You will see a band of whitish, milky-colored light called the Milky Way. Observe at different times of the year. Where is this Milky Way brightest?

Hint #2: Use a telescope and note the various open and especially globular clusters. Where are the numbers of these objects greatest?

Hint #3: If neither of the above hints occurred to you before asking this question, perhaps it is time to get thee to a library.
As hinted above you don't need to wait that long.
Don't need the new telescopes. (But I won't pass up the new data that they will bring!)

Hint #4: What are the greatest cluster(s) of galaxies? Do they lie preferentially in one direction in space or are they scattered about the sky?

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

The question posed by Missmoo was finding the center of the galaxy without the ability to see it. Your hints require observations of the galaxies that are not today possible because of distances involved.

Here is an xray image of the center of the Milky Way. It is an object called Sgr A*. Here is a story connected to that picture.

If you look at the wikipedia article about Sgr A* you will see lots more detail about what we know about the center of the galaxy.

However, I suspect from your posts above that you are confusing the term 'galaxy' with the term 'universe'. The current models do not have a center of the universe.

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Take any 2 galaxies. Determine their position (parallax is one way). Determine their direction and speed of travel (done with the aid of redshift).

Now you have 2 vectors of travel. Now draw a perpendicular line from each vector such that they cross.
If there is a center, it would be impossible for them to be completely parallel.
Where they cross is the center of the universe.

Now; here's the tricky part. Given that you have a point, any other observation will produce a vector that is perpendicular to a line from that vector to the point you have determined if there is a center to the universe.

I'm fairly certain that it wouldn't take too many observations to find one that isn't.

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To Antoniseb, trust me I am not confusing the center of our milky was with the center of galaxies. I was pointing out that it would be difficult, impossible as far as I know, To look at a number of stars and say where the center of the milky way is. Mankind through all the ages didn't do it until telescopes came on line.
To Neowatcher, according to your math as I understand it; You could look at two stars and tell where the center of the milky way is? Two galaxies where Tipperary is?

If I remember correctly, blueshifted galaxies are very much in the minority and are located within the Local Group. I don't see how this invalidates the Big Bang.

If that were true, then we would see considerably more blueshifted galaxies in a pattern consistant with an orbital system - IE, the more tightly orbiting galaxies would display blue shifts as they caught up relative to our position. As far as I can know, this is not happening.

Also, your hypothesis would be instantly invalidated if it turns out that blueshifted galaxies are spread across the sky in a pattern inconsistent with an orbital dynamic. Perhaps there are, and someone more knowledgeable than me can point them out.

If the light shift is consistent with your orbital model, surely some cosmologist would have spotted it by now?

Also, the galaxies are not "accelerating" anywhere. Space is expanding at an accelerating rate. Even I know this, and I'm not a cosmologist.

Again, such orbital behaviour is quite obvious and would have been spotted by now.

So why hasn't it?

I find the assumption that the universe in general would follow such a pattern completely unwarranted. On basis do you assume that Tipperary is 2.2million x 43,428 Ly distant? The existance of "Tipperary" is on shaky ground as it is, and I suspect it constitutes an extraneous entity subject to Occam's Razor. At least Dark Matter has some indirect evidence going for it.

Of course, I feel that the fatal flaw with this whole hypothesis is that it is pure armchair ratiocination, with no direct observational evidence to back it up.

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Armchair ratiocination?? My theory is a logical progression. Satellites orbiting around planets, planets orbiting around stars, stars orbiting around galaxies, galaxies orbiting around Tipperary. And the Whirlies logically orbiting around something else. My theory has a track record, the big bang theory is like starting another railroad line. It's like having a jar you can't see through full of jellybeans. You reach in once and pull out a red jellybean. The same for the second, third, forth, and fifth; all red jellybeans. I'm betting my money if you reach in again it's going to be a red jellybean. The Big Bang says it's going to be a yellow marble??? I do not assume Tipperary is 2.2 million x 43,428. I just used that as an example of where it would be if it were the same distance as our sun from the center of the milky way.

Haven't you considered that your hypothesis is a recipe for infinite regress? Or in this case, exgress? Where does it end and why?

More like the Big Bang theory says you'll run out of jellybeans. But in any case, current observations do not lend credence to your hypothesis. Looking at maps of the universe at large, at supercluster distribution etc, it seems to be fairly even despite localised clumping, and generally hardly the sort of distribution one would expect from an orbital system.

Compare:

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/universe.html

The visible universe, with fairly uniform distribution of galaxies.

http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/galaxy.html

The galaxy, an orbital system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:U...lanets2006.jpg

Our solar system, another example of an orbital system.

Now, notice the dissimilarities between the last two examples and the visible universe at large. I feel my point is aptly illustrated.

Fair enough, but you didn't address my other concerns.

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Where does it end and why? I think the same can be said for going down instead of out. You look down and there is atoms, then electrons, protons, and neutrons, to quantum mechanics, to string theory... As far as we know it doesn't end, and as for man I don't see us ever discovering an end.

I believe the other point you are trying to make, after looking at the websites,is that the stars in our milky way don't have the same orbital dynamics as the galaxies do. I wouldn't think they would. Even the stars in other galaxies don't have the same orbital pattern.

Going up you see the effect of gravity. Going down, gravity virtually has no effect. So; no, the same can not be said.

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