I posted of this on the JREF board, and it raised a question that I know someone here will be able to answer.

A few weeks ago I had a conversation with someone who believes that there are "indigo children", who are descended from aliens, have an extra strand of DNA, are immune to diseases such as AIDS, and are here to help us through the next phase of our evolution (or something). This person believed this because, and I quote, "I just know". This was linked somehow to the end of the Mayan calendar (12/21/12, although she said 12/23/12). I had heard of this before (although apparently the Mayan calendar does not end then). The next thing she said, though, was new to me. She said this date (12/23/12), coincides with a planetary alignment. I forget what the consequences of this were supposed to be. Or perhaps I just couldn't be bothered to ask.

My question is - does anyone know if there will be a planetary alignment on that date?

And I have a prediction. All these new age nutjobs - the Gregg Braden pole-shift group, the Indigo children, Planet X - all of them, will concentrate on 12/21/12 as being the day something big is going to happen, and the craziness has only just started. If you thought Planet X was nuts, just wait for 12/21/12. And remember - we've got nine years of it coming.

Try entering the date in Astroviewer at:
www.astroviewer.com

That should give difinitive proof and it's on-line!

GL

__________________
Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage

That's a fantastic site - thanks. And they're not in alignment. Not even close.

And even if they were in alignment - so what? Remember the "Jupiter Effect" and "5/5/2000", both popular books hyping the coming catastrophic effects of planetary alignments? Yawn. (I know you don't believe in the silliness, RichardR - but you just might want to point the irrelevance of planetary alignments to this woman. Not that it will make a dent in her True Belief.)

Here is a thread that was brought up on this topic a few months ago.

I do have a follow up question though.

It has been suggested that the alignment being referred to on 12/21/12 would be that the Sun will be in conjunction with the intersection of the ecliptic and the plane of the Milky Way, at that time.

Does this make sense to anyone?

This website gives you some details, if you can wade through it all.

I did. And you're right - it made no dent in her belief.

Just saw this - thanks. I'll read it.

All that this refers to is the winter solstice, the start of winter, the shortest day of the year. It's an annual event every December 22 (not the 21st). Yes, it's also one of two spots where the ecliptic crosses the galactic equator, the other being the summer solstice on June 21. I'm not sure what the date of the Mayan calender turn-over is, but if it is 23 Dec 12, then it sounds as if someone shifted the date a couple of days to make it coincide with the solstice and make their pet crackpot idea work out.

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

Gee, if you hurry, you can get an AUTOGRAPHED copy of their book on the realignment! #-o

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According to the U.S. Naval Observatory (the official timekeeper for the United States), the winter solstice in 2012 occurs at 1111 UT on December 21.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/EarthSeasons.html

And given the New Age Community's fascination with anything related to 11:11, I would expect them to also assign some huge spiritual significance to the time of the 2012 solstice.

As for which Gregorian date this will happen is open to some conjecture. By far the most commonly accepted translation by Mayan scholars is that Mayan date 13.0.0.0.0 correlates to Gregorian date December 21, 2012. This is according to the Goodman-Martinez-Thompson (GMT) correlation constant of 584283. Another less popular correlation constant is 584285, in which Mayan date 13.0.0.0.0 correlates to Dec 23, 2012.

Thanks for the corrections. ops: I had a feeling that the date might shift a bit. Of course, we know the 1111 time is a meaningless coincidence, unless we endow the ancient mystics the ability to predict the existince of our current time standards. One could also argue that the solstice time is only 0611 on the east coast of the US and 2311 near the date line. Not much mystic there.

Of course, the point remains that the sun passes through the crossings of the ecliptic and galatic equator twice a year, every year with no particular significance attached to it. 2012 will be no different.

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

Welcome to the Board xouper!

From what I can see at the JREF forums you (xouper) have probably done more research on the Mayan/2012 topic than others here at the BABB. Be sure to come by occasionally to help us out with other 2012 doomsayers - we've had at least one troll (Deadline-2012) visit us already and I'm sure more are on the way.

Except that according to this link: http://www.levity.com/eschaton/Why2012.html given on the other thread, the date the sun passes through the crossings of the ecliptic and galactic equator coincides with the winter solstice. And apparently this is a rare event.

Can anyone confirm this?

Of course, that doesn't mean anything will happen that day. But if the Maya managed to predict this then they must have known about the precession. Which is interesting.

im having trouble trying to use astroviewer(link provided by jim kirk and acknowledged by richard r) I loaded it and it has many icons in the file-thats as far as I got. If someone can assist I"d appreciate it.

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"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind."... Albert Einstein
r

No Richard, that page is just plain wrong. The position of the winter solstice (the farthest point south the sun reaches in the sky) also happens to be the place where the ecliptic (which represents the sun's path across the sky) crosses the galactic equator. This is, by itself an interesting coincidence as another recent thread discussed. However, it does mean that every year on the winter solstice the sun passes through that point. No pseudo-Mayan pseudomysticism required. Likewise, at the summer solstice the sun passes through the equivalent point in the northern sky. So far from being rare, the sun passes through the intersections twice a year on the two solstices. Tell your friend what Wolfgang said....

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

Why yes, that date does ring a bell.

hmmm isnt today/tonight/tomorrow...the night of the the planetary alignment.............................
again....

Im still here.......how about you?

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-Arthur

No, the equinoxes are when the sun crosses the celestial equator.

I had assumed that to be the general consensus on a board like this.


Thanks for the heads up and the welcome.

I understand that the equinoxes (that's a wierd plural) are different. However, if you look at a star chart you'll find that in the current epoch the solstices occur at the points where the ecliptic crosses the galactic equator: the summer one in Taurus (6 hours RA), the winter in Sagittarius (18 hours RA).

In thinking about this I realize that the situation will change with time. With precession the location of the solstice will shift away from the coincidence with the galactic plane over time. Perhaps the woo woos are correct in stating that it will be the closest to that point in 2012. However, it's already pretty darn close to that spot now. Neat coincidence, signifying nothing.

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

Richard, I would also point out that sometimes on "alternative" boards, when they start talking about planetary "alignments", they don't necessarily mean "in an astronomical context"--sometimes they're talking about an astrological context, which is a whole 'nother ball game. In astrology, apparently, you can refer to planets as being in "alignment" without its having anything to do with "being lined up" like the rest of the world uses the term, judging by the number of excited "alternative" threads about "planetary alignment" I've clicked on, only to find some kind of deeply esoteric astrological discussion going on that had nothing to do with the planets in question actually "lining up".

That's what I was thinking. The precession means that the apparent positions of the heavens moves by a day in about 70 years. So 2012 need not be such a special year for the sun to be in the crossing point of the ecliptic and the galactic equator at the winter solstice, as this phenomenon would be observed every winter solstice for approximately 70 years. For the 70 yearsprior, it would be observed on Dec 20th, and so on.

It presumably precesses by about 20 minutes per year. So can anyone say the exact time this will happen in 2012, bearing in mind the 11.11 time for the solstice in 2012?

Sorry to go on about this. I want to be sure of the facts and how they relate to what the woo woos are saying. Thanks.

That's true - woo woos often re-define scientific-soundind terms, frequently making their claims unfalsifiable.

We need to be careful in our terms here. Right Ascention is measured in an hour/minute/second system. A precession rate of 20 minutes of RA a year is way too fast. At that rate the entire sky would cycle around once every 72 years. The actual precession period is 26,000 years. That corresponds to 3.3 seconds of RA per year (or 50 arc-seconds if measuring in a degree/minute/second system). At that rate it takes 18 years to move one minute of RA and 1080 to shift one hour. Still, RichardR's estimate of 72 years of the solstices being close to the galactic/ecliptic intersection is about right. In that time, the precession is 4 min of RA, so if we define +/- 2 minutes RA as "close enough" we're about on.

__________________
"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind." - William Thompson, 1st Baron Lord Kelvin

"If it was so, it might be, and if it were so, it would be, but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic!" - Tweedledee

This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli

I meant minutes in time, not in angle.

Maybe I was confused about the 11.11 reading. I assumed it to mean 11.11 hours (11 minutes past 11, am), presumably GMT. Does anyone know the exact time the sun crosses the intersection of the ecliptic and the galactic equator? Can it be calculated? Is 2012 the mid point of this (approximate) 72 year period when this occurs on the winter solstice?

I just wondered if anyone knows how to calculate this.

The time I quoted from the USNO site was given as 11:11 UT (Universal Time) which has replaced GMT as the world's official time standard. You weren't confused, it's in the AM.