The ancient world exhibited structures on a Mediterranean scale which have been repeated on a global scale in modern times. It is like Rome was a pilot project for the USA as a leading western power. The sequential process of Roman history is now being repeated on the modern global stage, following causal drivers imbedded in the shape of precession.

But did you start with the idea that the US and Rome are linked, then apply the dates, or did you look for events 2147 years apart and then make the connections fit?

Either way, you have to establish some form of connection between Rome and the US that can be verified from outside your idea. Verified isn't just a string of thinks like other things. Start with that.

Show a definitive connection between Rome and the US that is not shared by any other nation/empire.

I'd also suggest you look through the threads started by Dutch on his hyper-dimensional design thing. This is very similar.

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I have asked a variation on this in another thread, but

What is the evolutionary advantage from being able to sense these "age cycles"?

A basic theory of biology is that all life becomes more finely attuned to its niche over time when left in peace. Undisturbed ecosystems evolve to ever deeper complexity through the Darwinian process of cumulative adaptation. It is not so much a matter of being able to 'sense' the underlying constant factors making up its niche, but that these factors influence the nature of life at a reproductive and sub-sense level. Each species has a natural range, based on the accidents of reproduction and its cumulative adaptation to niche factors such as rainfall, predation, temperature, etc.

I argue that cosmic factors, including the age cycle of precession, are a part of the ecological niche of life on earth. A tree may not be able to 'sense' climate change such as a rise in average temperature by 0.1 degree, but such a change (especially over millions of years) can have a big effect on which genes are successful in the process of natural selection. Of course, cosmic factors are extremely weak by comparison to the immediate terrestrial environment, but my argument is that this weakness is counterbalanced by permanent regularity. The moon has circled the earth 50 billion times since the dawn of life. The lunar cycle may or may not produce immediate 'sensed' advantages, but this permanent regularity makes it plausible that species are adapted in deep subtle genetic ways to diurnal and monthly lunar cycles. Precession is similar. The earth's axis has precessed about 175,000 times since life first evolved. On the theory that there are twelve ages per precession, this makes about two million ages, each lasting 2147 years if the axial wobble rate has been constant, since our oldest genes came into existence.

I do not argue that our genes 'sense' the ages, but that the ages provide a cosmic structure of terrestrial time, and human culture is part of this cosmic structure just as a fish is part of a river. The fish may not 'sense' a small change in water quality, but will be affected by it nonetheless. Precession provides a basis for a theory of karma as causality, with deeply imbedded cycles within planetary history operating at very long time scales. This thread examines main events over the two such cycles within recorded western history to find evidence for this theory, examining whether the historical outlines of these ages are comparable. I think the evidence here is strong for a 2147 year wave pattern whereby human history reflects the main cosmic structure of terrestrial time.

The solar system barycentre, now under discussion at the Jupiter Influencing Sunspots thread, has a period of 179 years resulting from the cycle of the planets. It appears this planetary cycle exactly matches 1/12 of the earth's precessional cycle, suggesting entrainment between precession and the barycentre as a new scientific framework to consider the whole solar system as a unified dynamic entity.

So, although by and large life cannot directly 'sense' the ages, we do now have the capacity through astronomy to understand them. I argue that the patterns I have described here are just scratching the surface of the advantages for human life of such analysis.

The 2147 year period derives from astronomy and is at the foundation of this method. I think the connection between Rome and the US is reasonably strong as the leading western powers of their age. The extent of borrowing from Rome in the US is considerable, eg the Capitol & Senate, military role as 'world policeman', e pluribus unum, as a start. I read pages 1&2 of Guy 'predicting the future' using "Hyperdimensional Design" (a 39 page thread - those were the days) and fully agree with the critiques of the meaningless unscientific concept of 'hyperdimensionality'. No redux here.

Did you notice my lengthy counter of your incorrect comparisons? No, really--Dutch.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Gillian,
My claim is that Roman history follows similar patterns to modern western history led by the USA, and that this reveals a scientific cosmic cycle with period 2147 years. Of course modern history has very different factors, not least the scale issue noted by Tusenfem. However, as Aristotle said, each winter is different, but they still follow the same general pattern. By not acknowledging this general pattern of precession you are trying to ignore the substance of my argument with questions analogous to saying that because one winter is colder or snowier than the last therefore the year does not exist. The cycle I am describing is deep and complex, but very much real (unlike the avowedly unscientific claims of Dutch). I acknowledge not all the comparisons I listed are exact, and was quite aware of the date issues you mention, but still claim that within this room for error the continuity with the previous precessional cycle is clear. I have sketched broad periods, and as I noted previously there is much room for refinement and debate, so I welcome your request for further explanation. As I have said, the basic method I am using is scientific, looking at the overall historical shape of events in ancient Rome and seeing how this is replicated 2147 years later. The discovery phase is quite murky; as I noted the Roman claims are shrouded in myth, and beginnings are a gradual process. In this context I suggested the beginnings of discovery of the Americas can be dated to when the Portuguese began to explore the Atlantic in ships in the early 1400s. Your comment about the 1500s is valid and I can see that the date I gave of 650BC=1500AD should be changed to 500BC=1650AD, with the subsequent 300 year period correspondingly shortened. These are absolutely nitpicky complaints. In this example I have divided time into periods where the basic shape of events was the same in ancient and modern times, so of course there are specific differences. The fact the frontier was “considered” closed does not mean that in actual historical fact it was closed, in terms of a broader understanding of frontier than the narrow legal definition. As well, in this period there wasa broader global frontier process underway with the Scramble for Africa and the settlement of Australia where the frontier was very much alive. And your comments that after Versailles ‘there was no reason to assume there would be another war’ completely misses the point and confuses perceptions with reality. My point is that there are underlying causal drivers of events which occur despite prevailing knowledge and belief. In the period between the Punic Wars (ie roughly analogous to the 1920s) Rome may well have believed it could live at peace with Carthage, but war exploded again in 218BC because the underlying material and cultural drivers of the competition to dominate the Mediterranean were so strong. The same argument can apply to the rise of Hitler, and perhaps Japan and Italy.
I don't think that. My point was that key Republican institutions such as the American Constitution and system of government were largely established in the period leading up to and soon after Independence in 1776. Of course these have grown and adapted since then, just as did those of Ancient Rome.

If you make the "pattern" general enough, there's no way you (or anyone) could fail to find matches. You're going to find some similiarities between Ancient Rome and any other civilization. Big deal. On the other hand, if you argue for very specific patterns, then you open yourself up to criticism on the validity of your comparisons.

In your example, you divided time into periods that, in your opinion were the same. Gillian pointed out problems with that, and I agree. It's a subjective argument, and a very fuzzy one at that, where you are ignoring the specifics of the events and the dates they happened, all to fit your supposed pattern.

It's real to you. Dutch's claim was real to him. Like him, when people point out problems with your claim, you ignore them. You're going to insist it fits no matter what anyone says.

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Do you really not see the contradiction there? If the cycle is exactly 2147 years, it cannot follow a general pattern. The events must be directly analagous. It's not enough to say "stuff happened in this vague 200-year time period"; you must, for example, find an analagous event that happened in 358 BC to compare to the Constitution in 1789. If you cannot, even for that one date, your pattern is seriously damaged. Or at least your chosen comparison is.

Nonsense. If it's exact enough to use 2147 as a "cycle," you must be able to be exact and not require room for error. If not, your cycle isn't 2147 years. If enough events fall off your cycle, it should become obvious to you that you don't have one.

If the beginnings are "shrouded in myth," isn't it logical to assume that you cannot compare them to anything? That you cannot date anything based on them? Further, Portugese exploration of the Atlantic didn't begin until the mid-1400s, so you're still wrong. The Madeiras, which had been known to the Romans, were rediscovered circa 1420; the Azores were discovered in 1427. At minimum, that still makes you 20 years off; in a more practical sense, since the Portugese were more interested in eastward exploration than westward, it's an invalid part of your "pattern."

Further nonsense. The reason the frontier was declared closed was that there was nowhere to draw the line between "settled" and "unsettled." Further, if you are comparing the US to Rome, wider global events cannot enter into it. The US was isolationist, for the most part, for most of that time. Even during the Spanish-American War, it wasn't so much settling as conquering. Few Americans moved to Guam. But to compare the "Scramble for Africa," participated in solely by the European powers, to actual Roman expansion would then mean that we could compare Mayan civilization to Rome. Make up your mind--just the US or a broader world perspective? If it's a broader world perspective, shall we start throwing in significant moments in Zulu or Chinese or Incan history?

During the 1920s, Germany couldn't afford to make war on anybody. You are still ignoring that, even assuming Europe is somehow included in your US comparison, that there was no defensive war against Germany until 1914. If you are not including Europe, there was never a defensive war against Germany. Only Japan launched a full-scale attack against the US, and it's doubtful they could have managed an invasion. One way or another, your claim of a fifty-year "defensive war against Germany" is bogus.

How long is "soon after"? What "key Republican institutions" (you want a lowercase "r" there) are you referring to? Have you perhaps not considered the sheer number of Cabinet positions added since 1789? George W. Bush's Cabinet contains eleven positions that George Washington's did not.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I'm shaking my head. I can't understand how any of this is important. You know what historical parallels that fit astronomical predictions I find interesting? It snows every year. Yup, that's right, every year, and it's been doing it for thousands of years in a row. Where it not for the very precise alignment of the cosmos, that snow would not come. The cool thing about it is I can predict the future with great accuracy. Next year it will snow. You heard it here first. And I've committed my prediction to print too so you'll all be able to call me out on it next year if I'm wrong. I also believe very strongly that snow has had a cyclical impact on human history. Snow is way better than 2147. It only has one syllable. It starts with S. It has the words no, now, on, won, son and sow in it... how many words does 2147 have in it? Yea.. that's right... none. Snow is so much more interesting and a better predictor of human behavior. I'll bet if I took a vote, more people would vote for snow than 2147 as a major impactor on human history. And then there's Santa Claus. Did Santa ever ride his sleigh on 2147... no. Did Santa come every time it 2147'd or did he come every year it snowed? Ask any kid, 2147 or Santa, and guess what. Thumbs down for 2147. Ever make a sphere out of 2147? I didn't think so. Ever play with 2147... yes, you obviously play with your 2147 way too much. But other people don't like to, so you're probably better off keeping it to yourself. That's just my opinion. I'm not very enlightened. I think snow is fun. I think 2147 isn't. Santa doesn't like it either... and neither do kids. But they all like snow. Snow is good. It comes every year, it's dependable, predictable, it is even water. The amazing thing about water is the impact water has had on human history. Caesar, he drank water. Newton, he drank water too. All our current technology has been provided throughout history by people who drank water. Without water, life can't exist. Can you say the same about 2147? Nooo... you most certainly can't. Did Jesus turn 2147 into wine? Did Columbus sail across an ocean of 2147? Does 2147 resonate in harmony with the moon? I think not. Can 2147 produce lightning? Can it supply power to parts of California, Nevada, and Arizona? Can you fill a balloon with 2147 and throw it at your sister? Have you ever written your name in the snow with 2147? See the synchronicity there, where water can be both pen and paper, can 2147 do that? Have you ever had Whiskey and 2147? The only benefit from 2147 I can see is if she's 21 and I'm 47... that's good. But then, if I'm 21 and she's 47, that's not so good, so it sort of cancels itself out. Now the thing that amazes me the most, is that someone who sounds like he's a fairly intelligent person, would spend so much of his time trying to crowbar facts to fit some theory that seems totally irrelevant and useless to me. But it clearly hides genius I am incapable of comprehending. For truly no rational person would put so much energy into developing a hair brained theory for no reason. So the fault is clearly mine for being too simple to understand the grand picture. There is obviously some significance that I am without sufficient capacity to grok. Or perhaps it just wasn't mentioned... I really don't know.

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There are few of those. The best way to visualise evolution is that there are no long term "niches". Each organism exists in a dynamic evolutionary landscape that is continuously changing due to the evolution of those organisms with which it interacts/competes, etc. In other words, its "niche" is a moving target. It's hard to think of an organism that is "left in peace", and that description certainly does not apply to homo sapiens.
No. Increasing complexity, like the popular perception of evolution being like climbing a developmental mountain, is a myth. If there are no selective pressures for a particluar feature, then that can easily wither away over time, for example the fish that live in caves that no longer have working eyes. Most "adaptations" have a cost associated with them, and if the benefit does not outweigh the cost then those adaptations will disappear, or not appear in the first place.
What benefit would a sensitvity to precession bring that would make an organism more likely to pass on its genes? Remember that there would be a cost associated with the formation of structures that were sensitive to precession.
Do these effects ever rise above the background noise during one reproductive cycle?
It is sensitive to temperature, but not to the gradual change in temperature.
Have you worked out how weak they are? Could we build a sensor that could do the job?
The Moon has quite obvious effects on the terrestrial environment. The most obvious is the effect on tides, i.e. it modifies the height of high tide, etc. Here we have an effect on the earth that could influence organisms that live in the tidal zone, for example.
What effect does it have on the Earth?
Where does this theory of 12 ages per precession come from?
What advantage does an organism gain by being sensitive to something with a timescale that is nearly 100 times the length of its reproductive lifetime?
Of course water quality affects fish. That is clear. How does precessional "quality" and its cyclic nature affect the ability of a member of homo sapiens to reproduce?
I don't see the need for a "theory of karma as causality", so there does not seem to be a need for its basis.
Others on this thread have identified problems with this. I might just add that for your hypothesis to be meaningfull you need to demonstrate it over more than one cycle.

Indeed they are, they remind me of those math teachers that insist that you are wrong just because you wrote 2+2=5 on the blackboard, nitpickers...
Seriously now, you do realize that to show that U.S. is the national reincarnation of Rome or something like it you will need to be able to come up with some very,very strong parallels between both nations?
Wait a minute, the U.S. didn't colonize Africa and Australia. Shouldn't you be looking at the Spanish-American war? I admit that I don't know if it mirrors any events in Roman history, but at least it is something in which your "New Rome" was involved.
Ok, World War 1 mirrors the 1st Punic War with Germany taking the role of Carthage. I'm sorry but that doesn't work very well.
Here's a few objections that I can think of, I'm sure that someone with time and a greater knowledge of history will be able to come up with more of them:
1 - World War 1 is just too short, it lasted 4 years against 23 for the 1st Punic War
2 - The U.S. joined the allies in late in the war, Rome was in the 1st Punic War from the start
3 - The U.S.(Rome) was not the main adversary of Germany(Carthage), the Triple Entente (U.K. - France - Russia) was
4 - World War 1 saw the end of tsarist Russia, where's the Punic equivalent of that event?

Respondents have queried the scientific status of the 2147 year period of the age. This period is a mathematical product of the precession of the equinox. In a new discovery explained here now, I have found that this period is in precise harmony with cycles of the outer planets and the solar system barycenter. If this has been observed before I would welcome any references.

2147 years is 1/12 of the precessional period of 25764 years. Astronomers will ask why 1/12 is a significant fraction. The reason is that this period is also 12 times the solar system barycenter periodic cycle of length 178.9 years. It appears the age imbeds the barycentric period in terrestrial cycles, as the square root of the great year against the barycentric cycle. These links demonstrate the organic unity of the solar system.

The barycentric cycle links to the outer planets as follows:

Cycles in 179 year barycentric period
Jupiter Saturn 9.03
Jupiter Uranus 13.01
Jupiter Neptune 13.96
Jupiter Pluto 14.02
Saturn Neptune 5.00

~Years between conjunctions
Jupiter Saturn 19.81
Jupiter Uranus 13.75
Jupiter Neptune 12.81
Jupiter Pluto 12.76
Saturn Neptune 35.79

Due to the correlations between these cycles, every 179 years Jupiter returns to the same position in relation to Saturn, Uranus and Pluto, and Saturn returns to the same position relative to Neptune, with very small error. For every nine Jupiter-Saturn conjunctions, there are 13 Jupiter-Uranus conjunctions, 14 Jupiter-Pluto conjunctions, and five Saturn-Neptune conjunctions. Jupiter-Neptune also fits the cycle with larger error. This rhythmic cycle of the outer planets was, I understand, discovered by Sir Isaac Newton. I do not know if Newton or others have noticed the precise harmony to the Great Year of precession of the terrestrial equinox.

My interpretation of this finding is that the wobble of the earth actually is like a spinning top, with interactions between Jupiter and the other outer planets functioning like a whip, maintaining the exact tempo of the top in harmony with the barycentric period.

This is a testable falsifiable scientific claim, not a statement of belief. My figures in the above table are slightly imprecise as I could not readily find exact data. I would welcome if astronomers could check them against more precise ephemerides.

http://www.perceptions.couk.com/precess.html has a simple diagram (from Hancock - Fingerprints of the Gods) which provides a mathematical depiction of these findings, showing the earth through time in the age periods each of length 2147 years. This is not a matter of belief but of science. The diagram illustrates our planet in simple scientific terms of the primary cosmic rhythms of terrestrial time.

This thread has provided examples of precise and rough parallels between events separated by 2147 years. The mathematical cosmic data in this post suggests a scientific basis for this model.

Vague (imprecise and subjective) repetition in just two sets of data does not prove a pattern.

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What do you think causes precession, in terms of the physics of a rotating rigid body?

"Suggests" is a long way from "accurately shows." Further, as has been pointed out to you, if it should be precise and instead is rough, that means your model fails. It is based on coincidence and cherry picking. I also asked you quite a few direct questions in my last post, and I expect to see direct answers.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Lunisolar precession is well explained at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precession_(astronomy) My discussion here notes an exact harmonic correlation between the speed of precession and the aspects of the outer planets against the 2147 year cycle of the ages. This barycentric harmonic link has not to my knowledge been previously documented.

But the problem is I don't think you've been able to convince anybody that this link is actually real. I don't think that a rougly 2147 gap between the Roman Empire and the US is very convincing. There are lots of loose ends. Empires rise and fall all the time. Plus, how do the Chinese dynasties fit into this pattern? What about what was happening in India? It is only from a somewhat Eurocentric perspecitive that it makes sense. Also, if there is a pattern like that, you should be able to trace it back. What happened 2147 years before Rome? And 2147 years before that? You would have to have more than two points to point out a real correspondence.

To be honest, I've thought about what might make a valid test of your hypothesis, and I can't really find anything that would be sufficiently objective. OK, I could. Suppose the human population of the earth could be shown to fluctuate between highs and lows every 2,147 years. Or suppose an asteroid struck the earth and wiped out 95% of humanity every 2,147 years. Then I would tend to accept it. But talking about the rise and fall of empires, it happens every 50 years anyway, so you are bound to get hits. What about the rise of Islam? And the Ottoman Empire? And Prussia? History seems to me to be much too complicated to be able to detect any trends. For example, maybe the Black Death represents a down cycle in Europe, but it was (I think) the time of the Ming Dynasty in China and hence, for a significant part of humanity, an up time.

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Gillian, your comments avoid the astronomical point of my claims. There is in fact a general pattern of what I will call Gaian history with precise cycle period 2147 years. I included a link to a good picture of this Gaian temporal structure at http://www.perceptions.couk.com/precess.html This cycle has been going on since the origin of life on earth with stable structure. And, as explained in my most recent discussion, the 2147 year structure is a physical function of the relation between the outer planets and the sun – the earth is like a gyroscope in the solar system. So, the period is real, and the question is whether there is evidence for it in history. This evidence can range from exact parallels between events such as Zama and Normandy or the Western invasions of Carthage and Baghdad to much broader possible resonances. The point is that the sum of causes of historical events includes this general pattern of terrestrial time. There are some good examples in the USA/Rome comparison and some that are weaker. Because you are disposed to ignore precession as a framework of history, you focus on those I have mentioned that are weaker rather than stronger.

Again, this is a misunderstanding. It is analogous to you saying that because snow fell first in November one year and in January the next that the cycle of the year does not exist. Of course we know the year exists. My point is that the precession has equal temporal status to the year as a structure of time. America and Rome often are in fact compared in history, through ideas such as the Pax Romana and the Pax Americana. I am simply taking this as the biggest imperial comparison between ages that exists in our world and asking if we can see parallels with phase 2147 years. In some cases these parallels are precise, in others broad.
America-Rome is just an example. Of course there are likely to be other parallels and the basic reason for this thread is to develop an understanding of wider world causal processes against a cosmic context. I pick on America and Rome because they have a cultural continuity and have major stark dates as world powers. The greater the cultural distance between two powers the less the causal connection. As I mentioned, the modern parallels I am noting are between the West and Ancient Rome, with some examples drawn from the USA and others from the UK and Europe. The whole modern West, unlike the Mayans, is joined to Rome by language, law, history, blood, religion, etc. Even so, there may well be deeper connections which link different parts of the world. I only raise this in response to your mention of the Mayans, who really had no direct institutional link to the USA by comparison with Rome. An example of a cross-continent comparison of the sort you seem to be asking for might well be that drawn by a respondent between Buddha and Calvin. Both codified a world folk religion, with Buddha refining Hinduism into Buddhism and Calvin refining Catholicism into Protestantism. However, as I said in response to the criticism of the comparison of Plato and Kant, I think it is easier to see the cycle of precession operating at world-historical than at individual level.
Broader world. And this is about millennial cycles which could well have decades variance in their return. You are welcome to look for connections between unconnected cultures, but I think these are less likely than between the US and Rome. With the Germany-Carthage comparison, my point is that at the same stage in both their history, having cleared the neighbourhood, the US and Rome went to war to defeat a counter-hegemon. The parallels include the broad multi-decade phase I have called ‘defensive war’ and specifics such as 202BC=1945 and 146BC=2001AD.
See above.

And you do quite the opposite. I'm having a hard time finding reasonable parallels, largely because the dates you've chosen as representative are off by as much as 200 years from your cycle. Further, I don't dispute the astronomical things. What I dispute is the human parallel, which you have not adequately shown. You have chosen Rome. Note that. Chosen, because you already think there's a parallel. However, I can name you half a dozen empires from the same continent as the US, which surely represents some sort of parallel in space, if not thought, which don't follow your cycle at all. Even if you apply them to each other. Further, as has been said, you need to go back a second cycle, and a third, in order to show connection. Oh, you can't--we don't have documentation back that far? So how do you know there's a cycle at all?

I see. In other words, you can pick any date you like within 200 years or so of a comparable date, and it's close enough?

So what's the parallels with Ancient Greece on the same cycle? After all, the US takes at least as much of its origins from Greece as Rome--and even more from, say, Britain and Spain. Further, really? The modern US is more tied by blood to Rome than the Mayans? Really? Despite the fact that the largest ethnic minority in the US is from the part of the world that the Mayans lived in, and a substantial minority has African roots? And while it's true that the English language takes more from Latin than Mayan, the English language takes from everywhere. I can give you a list of Iroquois words that are only applicable to plants and animals of the US, if you like; surely, that's more directly US-related than Latin, which has influenced the language of dozens of countries.

But the Mayans aren't unconnected to the US. The Zulu and the Chinese aren't unconnected to the US. Every major civilization in the world has influenced US history in one way or another. Further, the causes of WWI were not entirely defensive. True, Germany invaded several other countries. However, a state of war already existed, and Germany was hardly the first power in the war. Also, you've left Austro-Hungary, a country which was a major aspect of WWI, out of your equations entirely, I can only assume because it didn't exist in WWII, which throws your "calculations" out of order. Or through sheer, demonstrable ignorance of history.

No, no. That's not a direct answer. You have chosen a specific time period. I have shown that major US republican structures were created 200 years outside it. That's 10% off. Surely that's hardly akin to winter falling on a different day. Besides, astronomical winter begins within the same three-day period every year; the differences in weather vary from region to region, and you appear to be claiming the world entire as a region. In short, you are applying a specious argument. If you are basing your argument on astronomical data, your argument about winter cannot apply, because winter as you're defining it is not an astronomical phenomenon.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

And where does Russia and the Cold War fit into this. Or indeed the Russian participation in WW1 and 2. How about the Ottoman Turks?

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Upon further thought--Robert, you do realize that the Kaiser of Germany during WWI was the King of England's cousin, right? Are you taking the "family quarrel" aspects of the war into consideration? How about Serbia? For WWII, the war in the Pacific? What in Japan's own history 2147 years (or so, apparently) before WWII parallels the war?

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

For that matter Britian has been more or less constantly at war with someone or other for hundreds of years.

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And any number of other egregious historical errors, yes.

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Gillian

"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

I think there is an interesting parallel with the Cold War. In comparing ancient and modern events separated by 2147 years, the overall pattern of development in relations between the leading western power and its main adversary is very similar. The underpinning theory is that the earth’s main cosmic cycle has a 2147-year long phase, which should be apparent in historical cycles. There is strong correlation between the USA and Rome as main western powers, but a morphing of correlations for other weaker powers. There may well be ancient correlations with smaller powers such as Russia and the Ottomans, but the biggest events of history have been at its leading Western edge. This is where the institutional continuity is greatest, and where we should find strongest parallels. Carthage, as Rome’s main hegemonic rival, seems to correlate to each of America’s modern rivals. The end of WW2 corresponds to the end of the Second Punic War. The subsequent 40 years in each case was a period of Cold War. In the ancient world, this period ended with Roman declaration of war on Carthage in 149BC (=1998AD). In the modern world, this period ended with the collapse of the Soviet Union in 1991 (=156BC) and the Gulf Wars (1991-). The overall phasing of war and peace between hegemons and rivals runs in parallel, and the cosmic framework of precession suggests an underlying causal link.

At other points the phasing is less exact - the First Punic War (264-241BC = 1886-1909AD) is a bit earlier than WW1, and the Third Macedonian War is ten years later in the scheme than the Vietnam War, but these are smaller events within a broad parallel process of development in which the earth’s cosmic cycle seems strongly imbedded.

A good Roman timeline is at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_ancient_Rome

I think the parallels between this thread and a Dutch thread are uncanny.

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In looking over that time line and a similar on for the US and plotting both on a spreadsheet, I can see a few thing that match up on the 2147 year cycle. Jamestown being settled sort of fits in with the establishment of Rome's boundaries, but there really isn't a lot of other stuff that lines up as exactly as would be needed.

Rome was founded 98 (adjusted) years before the "discovery" of North America. Rome seemed to be having a pretty stable time during the Spanish exploration and land grabbing from most of Europe that went on the 1500s.

Nothing in the Revolution seems to line up except for the 1776/371 date, where the Declaration of Independence could be said to tie in with the end of the Anarchy Period in Rome, even though the actual war lasted for another 5 years.

War of 1812 to 1814, saw no matches on the Roman time line.

The next one I can sort of see as a match isn't until the Great Depression, which started about 2 adjusted years before Hannibal moved into Rome.

From 1943 to 1945, were involved in military actions in Africa, but that 's the first obvious match.

For the most part, wars in one era line up to a time of peace in the other. I Really don't see anything that is any better than random chance here.

As for the physical relationship between Precession and the motions of the Barycenter, shouldn't Venus and Mars have a similar relationship as well?

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Thanks for having a look. The timing of parallels may vary, but I still maintain that the overall path of development of Rome and the US is surprisingly similar, giving grounds to expect that US and world history will follow a similar path to that of the Roman Empire over the next few centuries at equivalent points 2147 years ago. We can check back – who will be the American Gaius Gracchus, Marius, Sulla, Caesar and Augustus - when we turn 200.

I had another look at the timeline and think you are being rather harsh as the correlations are much better than random chance. I concede I still need to work out how to test this statistically, but there are examples such as
1812AD = 336BC. Rome’s Latin Wars parallel the war of 1812.
1865AD = 283BC. US Civil War parallels Etruscan War

The Etruscan wars from 500-283BC (= 1648-1865AD) also have a strong parallel with the relations between the US and Native Americans. As this is not seen as a war in modern terms, with history written by the victors, you may have overlooked it.
I’m surprised you eagle-eyed astronomers didn’t pick up on this error. Newton plotted the barycentre against Jupiter and Saturn, but the further planets had not yet been discovered. Also, none of you seem to have noticed that this relation between the barycentre and precession is an elegant and significant entrainment in the solar system.
I concede that this line of argument is speculative and will struggle to make the grade as a scientific theory. However, it remains valid as a way of looking at how precession is imbedded in history, an example of a study of a large ecological system against its cosmic framework. At least I am discussing a cycle which is real and natural, whereas Dutch proposes cycles which have no physical referent. I think it is a shame that the anti-scientific attitudes of many who discuss these topics have fouled the nest for those who want to develop a scientific approach to harmonic cycles.

Maybe. But Dutch thinks his cycles have physical referents, if you read his threads. He is wrong. But then, so are you. For one, you have yet to show why there should be parallels in the first place. Are you falling back on astrology again? Fine. Why should astrology work? How does it work? And, again, there are some pretty serious failings in the one historical parallel you've bothered to look into.

A few more direct questions.

Should the cycle be evident in the histories of civilizations that have lasted more than 2000 years all by themselves?

If so, have you bothered looking into their history to find the cycle?

If so, how closely do they fit the cycle?

How far off do you consider "close enough"?

What is required to make two civilizations parallel enough for you to expect to see the cycle?

If more than one civilization fits your requirements, does that mean that the two earlier (or, I suppose, one earlier and one later) civilizations should parallel one another as well?

If they're on different continents?

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"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

"You can't erase icing."

"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

Perhaps, had he lived long enough, Newton could have inferred the presence of Uranus by rigorous analysis of such plotting. Successors such as LeVerrier did just that for Neptune.
I cannot see something when there is nothing there to be seen.

My educated guess is that some of your perception of patterns is being influenced by wishful thinking.