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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 26-June-2008, 11:25 AM
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Forgive my manners fcunnane Welcome to the board!
I see you have started your own ATM and a lively one too.
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Old 26-June-2008, 11:39 AM
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The mind experiment that I am trying to set up (from the OP) is that of a Bose_Einstein condensate (BEC) that suddenly erupts and spacetime as we know it is born.
An analogy:
A sink (could be a kitchen sink, after all the universe is everything including the kitchen sink) full of very cold water. It hasn't gone to ice but is cold enough. A spoon is dropped in; almost instantly the whole mass freezes, a change of state. Or even better; you have heated a mug of water up in a microwave you put some coffee in it it suddenly boils over!

I am talking about a state of matter 'on the edge'. Ready to erupt at any disturbance. It did erupt, and because it was a BEC it did so across it's whole expanse instantaneously and spontaneously. As the resulting energy or matter clumped there was space and this gives the impression of a very fast inflation. TBC
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Last edited by sirius0; 26-June-2008 at 11:41 AM. Reason: orthography
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Old 26-June-2008, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sirius0 View Post
Constructs of language such as before and after don't necesarily apply to space-time remember that simultaneity doesn't hold across all frames. When I say 'before' I mean that eventless state that the initial space-time erupted from. .... "as we know it" does not exclude discussion/research that may help us to know what there was of space-time before.
If it is eventless ... then what does before mean?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 26-June-2008, 09:44 PM
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If it is eventless ... then what does before mean?
If it is to be a pedantic discussion then I even have to define, in my terms, what eventless means. But I want scientific discussion. So I will compare what I am saying to something well within standard theory. When a photon goes from A to B from our observations it takes some time to do so. Also we have no difficulty appreciating a time before the photon. Now the worldline of the photon is a null WRT time tau=0 but it still has a sequence of events! Otherwise cause and effect scrambles. Now would a photon perhaps have trouble appreciating a "before it started"? I think so. Mind experiments (the OP, that is what this is about) nearly always adopt unreasonable "frames" like that of the photon, in order to explore possibilities that are hard or impossible otherwise to visualize. So we are outside of spacetime constraints and we observe a BEC Before (from our frame) time began. The eruption (BB) of the BEC was perhaps a null time sequence like the photon. So if you can explain the photon and it's null time then I will explain before for BEC.
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Old 27-June-2008, 03:25 PM
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Cool From What I gather

It would take a pretty significant heat source to make the BEC "errupt" rather than evaporate slowly.

Presumably this BEC would be at 0K temp. at the dawn of the universe. It would have fantastic pressure potential beause of the superfluid, and the space around it would have a lack of pressure. This lack of pressure would cause the BEC to start evaporating and photon emmission from sounds within the superfluid would heat up that matter eventually.

I don't think you would get an erruption without a significant heat source. I think it would be a slower evaporation at the dawn of time.

Now this evaporation will collect and condense as a star that will nova and that could be the "bang" or multiple bangs. I would classify those stars as being class 0 stars.
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Old 28-June-2008, 04:12 AM
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No I disagree.
It would suit your agenda on your ATM but no. As is the case now back 'then' there was no "space outside" no 3D "edge" etc. In the BEC I am suggesting even the heat you talk about did not exist, it's potential was tied up in the massive all is one Boson (or whatever).

Try thinking in 4D, one edge of the Universe is it's beginning the other , well lets hope there isn't another edge (temporally being the END!)
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