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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 01:42 AM
Zephir Zephir is offline
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do these "particles" have a quantum nature? If so, to what extent?
The Aether foam exhibits an nonlinear behavior, as the soap foam gets more dense during shaking. Therefore every wave spreading through such foam makes the foam more dense temporarily at the same moment. You can check this behavior by using of the Java applet here.



This behavior can be understood easily, if we realize, everything what can be observed from random field of fluctuation are the fluctuations, where the randomness is less or more violated by ordered, collective motion. And the wave is the most deterministic, causal kind of motion, so it increases the "reality density" (it decreases the entropy density) at the place, where the wave is just spreading. So that every wave is spreading through particle environment like less-or more dense blob of this environment, i.e. like particle. By AWT this mechanism is infinitely recursive and all the Aether unparticles are made by the same way.



How such concept is related to quantum mechanics? Well, by a quite simple way: the Schrödinger equation describes the undulation of N-dimensional string, whose mass density is proportional to its energy density in each moment and location, i.e. the undulations of foam (so called the quantum string). You can check this behavior in DHTML applet here (sorry, for MS IE 6.0 browser only). I suppose, the relativistic version of Schrödinger equation (the Dirac's equation) describes the undulations of nested foam.
  #32 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 01:48 AM
Zephir Zephir is offline
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How - even in principle - can this idea be investigated, quantitatively?
You can analyze for example the ultrasound spreading inside of condensing supercritical fluid in its critical point and you can compare this behavior with particle simulation on computer. You can derive the quantum mechanics equations from the model of energy spreading through foam. You can model the most compact geometries of such foam and compare them with root system of E8 group by diffraction and dispersion measurements.


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..how - even in principle - could "infinities" be related to phenomenology?
Isn't Universe considered infinite in this moment? How we can talk about it, after then? After all, Cantor has developed the term cardinality and infinite set calculus before hundred years, so I don't afraid, formal math cannot comprehend the infinity concept phenomenologically.
  #33 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 02:26 AM
Tensor Tensor is offline
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Does it mean, the Aether is considered as a nonscientific concept here? I didn't invented it.
Yes, Aether has been considered nonscientific since about 1905.

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Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
How did you deduced that? And how the quantitative form is relevant to scientific approach. Is the evolutionary theory a quantitative theory?
Yes, quite. I'll give an example. We should not find Trilobyte fossils in Jurassic dated rocks. Quantitative also includes collection of empirical data and modelling and analysis of data. Both of which are a part of evolutionary theory.

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Is the heliocentric concept wrong without Kepler's law? Whether it cannot predict something testable without math - for example the order of Venus phases?
You know, you don't have to have a heliocentric theory to have Venus and Mercury showing phases. Earthcentric theory, with Venus and Mercury revolving around the Sun, would produce the phases we see.

In the case of the Aether of the AWT. What is its compressibility? What is its permitivity? What is its permeability?
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 02:35 AM
Zephir Zephir is offline
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..Aether has been considered nonscientific since about 1905...
OK, from which reasons?
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..We should not find Trilobyte fossils in Jurassic dated rocks...
This is still qualitative comparison, though. The Jurassic dating is the matter of geology. And please, don't say me. we are dating the age of fossils used by Darwin theory by using of age of fossils estimated by Darwin theory...
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Originally Posted by Tensor View Post
..What is its compressibility? What is its permitivity? What is its permeability?...
The Aether is of infinite density, zero compressibility, permitivity and permeability. It doesn't conduct energy at the distance at all. It's just abstract concept. What you can measure/compute is one of Aether phases, i.e. the vacuum.
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..you don't have to have a heliocentric theory to have Venus and Mercury showing phases...
But the Venus phases aren't the only qualitative evidence of heliocentric model, the stellar parallax or Jupiter moon phases can serve as an evidence as well. By the same way, the evidence of AWT isn't based on the single aspect of Aether behavior, which can describe at least one of mainstream theories. The evidence of Aether is based on the indicia, the explanation of which would require combination of two or more mainstream theories.
  #35 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 03:14 AM
Tensor Tensor is offline
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Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
OK, from which reasons?
It's hasn't been shown to be needed, since then. Prior to that, it was thought something need to wave for light to move. It was found that the nature of a light wave didn't need anything to wave. Of course, if you want to go with the particle nature, then you don't need it either.

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This is still qualitative comparison, though.
Actually, no it's not. Did you miss this part of my post:
Quantitative also includes collection of empirical data and modelling and analysis of data. The collection of the fossils falls under the collection of empirical data. The dating of the rocks the fossils are in and the study of the fossils themselves fall under the analysis part. Determining when and if species died off or changed would fall under modeling. It's all quantitative.

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The Jurassic dating is the matter of geology.
It is also a matter of paleontology.

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Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
And please, don't say me. we are dating the age of fossils used by Darwin theory by using of age of fossils estimated by Darwin theory...
If you are going to invoke Darwin's theory, at least understand it. No where in Darwin's theory does the theory estimate the ages of fossils. Darwin's theory comes in after Animal Paleontology, Paleonecology, Taphonomy, Paleonbotony are all studied for a particular epoch or era. Those, having been studied, the current model predicts that we won't find trilobyte fossils in Jurrassic rocks. Now, if you disagree with the model, then by all means, feel free to post your model.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
The Aether is of infinite density, zero compressibility, permitivity and permeability. It doesn't conduct energy at the distance at all. It's just abstract concept. What you can measure/compute is one of Aether phases, i.e. the vacuum.
So what is the difference between the Aether and the Aether foam?


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Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
But the Venus phases aren't the only qualitative evidence of heliocentric model, \

the stellar parallax
This is just a measure of distance. Which would still be the same in a Earthcentric universe.

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Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
or Jupiter moon phases can serve as an evidence as well.
Why? Jupiter's Moon's revolving around Jupiter while Jupiter revolve's around the Earth is proof of a heliocentric system, how?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 03:37 AM
Nereid Nereid is offline
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I'm bumping this post of mine, to highlight several unanswered questions.

Zephir, the questions that I asked in the post I am quoting are (I think) directly pertinent to the ATM ideas you presented, as you presented them.

Under BAUT's rules, you must answer them "in a timely fashion".

Of course, "I don't know" (or similar), or "I need some time to answer that" (or similar), or "I do not understand your question, could you clarify please?" and so on are perfectly acceptable responses.

I have numbered the unanswered questions, and bolded them, for clarity.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir
[...]

This is the right question - but currently I don't see any meaningful limitation for Aether density - at least conceptually.
1) If that is so, how - even in principle - can this idea be investigated, quantitatively?

2) Specifically, what mathematical tools could be employed - in principle - to investigate attributes (epiphenomena?) that take "infinite" values?

3) Even more specifically, how - even in principle - could "infinities" be related to phenomenology (that which is, or could be, observable)?
Quote:
But the Aether is just an abstract concept by its very definition, it can be never seen in its full extent. So that is possible, some practical limit for Aether density observation exists and such limit would define the scope of the whole observable Universe by the same way, when you're using a lantern in dense fog - what you'll see is the spherical zone of illuminated fog, not the whole space. The principal limitation of the observable Universe size and density is the speed of light, for example.
Interesting.

So AWT is not, by many standard definitions, part of science?

4) Specifically, there is no way - even in principle - to derive potentially testable hypotheses from the AWT ideas?
Quote:
Another limitation follows from geometry constraints. For example, I speculated, the Universe is formed by fractal foam, so that the most dense portion of reality is formed just by many combination of existing paths. You know, when we appear inside of large maze or foam, the number of paths perceived increases greatly with the maze or foam size, so it can appear much larger, then it really is.



Another question is, why we should ask about Universe limits - the only number, which doesn't require any further reasoning is just the infinity.
5) I do not know what this means - could you clarify please?

Also, 6) what is the diagram? 7) What does it intend to represent?
  #37 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 03:48 AM
Nereid Nereid is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nereid
do these "particles" have a quantum nature? If so, to what extent?
The Aether foam exhibits an nonlinear behavior, as the soap foam gets more dense during shaking. Therefore every wave spreading through such foam makes the foam more dense temporarily at the same moment. You can check this behavior by using of the Java applet here.

I'm confused.

All these simulations (or whatever they are intended to be) involve finite entities (or, more precisely, entities which take only finite values).

Yet, if I have understood AWT correctly, what is being simulated is entities which have infinite values (whatever that means).

Can you clarify please?

Specifically, how can you represent something (density, temperature, mass, ...) which is "infinite" in these simulations?
Quote:

This behavior can be understood easily, if we realize, everything what can be observed from random field of fluctuation are the fluctuations, where the randomness is less or more violated by ordered, collective motion.
I'm even more confused.

Are you claiming that "what can be observed" (presumably with extensions of one or more of the human senses) is something that is "infinite"? Or fluctuations (random or otherwise) of something that is "infinite"?

Quote:
And the wave is the most deterministic, causal kind of motion, so it increases the "reality density" (it decreases the entropy density) at the place, where the wave is just spreading. So that every wave is spreading through particle environment like less-or more dense blob of this environment, i.e. like particle. By AWT this mechanism is infinitely recursive and all the Aether unparticles are made by the same way.



[...]
Back to an earlier question: what mathematical tools does AWT use to ("realistically") describe the status/state of the infinite density, temperature, mass (more?) of the "reality" it claims to model?

It seems to me that everything quantitative you have presented so far is finite, not an "infinity" in sight ...
  #38 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 04:22 AM
Tensor Tensor is offline
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I find the following rather interesting. From post #34

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
The Aether is of infinite density, zero compressibility, permitivity and permeability. It doesn't conduct energy at the distance at all. It's just abstract concept.
And post #11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
But the Aether is just an abstract concept by its very definition,....

So if the Aether, by your definition is an abstract concept, how do reconcile the following statement from post #6:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
... Therefore the AWT doesn't use any abstract unexplained yet concepts.
You claim AWT doesn't use any abstract concepts, yet you claim that the Aether is an abstract concept. That sounds like a particularly big contradiction to me.

Also, if Aether, again by your statements is of infinite density and has zero compressibility, then there is no way for the following from your post #31:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zephir View Post
Therefore every wave spreading through such foam makes the foam more dense temporarily at the same moment
With zero compressibility, there can be no wave spreading through your Aether. Not to mention, with infinite density, you can't have more density temporarily. Again, your own posts contradict themselves.
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Neptune- The original Dark Matter.

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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 04:57 AM
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ToSeek ToSeek is online now
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And why my posts were removed from original thread just after two months? Is it normal / logical behavior here?
Someone complained about the posts. I checked and found the complaints were justified and took appropriate action. I didn't look at the timestamp, but then it's seldom the case that a post is reported well after it appears.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 14-July-2008, 05:00 AM
macaw macaw is offline
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I'm confused.

All these simulations (or whatever they are intended to be) involve finite entities (or, more precisely, entities which take only finite values).

...
Nereid,

These are not simulations since Zephir has no equations and no math to drive any simulation. These are animated gifs picked off the internet in order to produce the impression of a theory. In other words, a scam.
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