as another of what seems like thousands of bewildered minions comes here to the BAUTF forum to sort of the chaos represented on the web by the number 12212012 I am looking for a quick answer to 3 questions
#1 is there a black hole in the center of the Milky way?
#2 does the gravitational power projected by this mass ( if it exists ) form a " thin plane " projected out from the center of the Galaxy?
and finally
#3 does our solar sytem pass through this theoretical plane in 2012?

since russia recently pulled another fully frozen mastadon with vegitation undigested frozen in its throat, it begs the question " what power in the universe would effect such a quck change?" and since man evolved and lived with and hunted these creatures, this must have happened in so relatively recent history so, is it possible that it wil happen again?
sincerly
ANLWhip ( ANL= Almost No Limits for all you people pointing at my nick as some sort of vile psuedonym for what ever your brain added to my nick ) < smile> its all be said before and thank you for in advance for your simple concise answers
http://www.thehorizonproject.com/earthquakes.cfm

Welcome to the board ANLWhip. As this looks like (another) 2012 thread, please search this board, and please read the rules of this board.


To answer your questions:
1. Yes there is
2. No, gravitation is spherically symmetric, there is no such plane
3. As there is no such plane, our solar system cannot pass through it. Most likely you are thinking of the "galactic alignment" which is said to happen on 2012, but which has been shown to have happened already in 1998.

There was no mastodon with undigested vegetation in his throat. There was no flash freezing of animals, it did not happen and it will not happen.

And whatever for is that link to earthquakes, which has absolutely nothing to do with the topic you are discussing.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

my apologies, took me a little digging to fig out what your ATM reference ment, I really did not want an ATM reply, I am admitedly new to the forum and if my post was not in the correct category I am sorry, mostly I was wondering if this black hole spinning so fast in a vortex in space projects it gravity out in a disc as claimed in the doomsday fanatics websites sorry I upset you with my question
as for there being no frozen mamoth or mastadon
http://video.msn.com/video.aspx?mkt=...1-cff0e4c26738

first quote , penn state university
http://www.science.psu.edu/alert/Sch...ller9-2007.htm
Several of the hair samples investigated were up to 50,000 years old. One of the samples came from the first specimen ever recorded: the so-called Adams mammoth, found in 1799 and dug out of the permafrost between 1804 and 1806 by the botanist Michael Adams and members of the Tungus tribe. This mammoth died around 36,000 years ago. "Hair samples from this find were stored in a Russian museum for 200 years at room temperature, but still allowed for a complete analysis of its mitochondrial genome using only 0.2 grams of hair," Schuster said. As a result, he uses the term "museumomics" for his dream of deriving molecular-genomic-analysis data from the specimens stored in the collections of Charles Darwin, Alexander von Humboldt, and Carl von Linné.

second quote beneditine university
http://www.ben.edu/museum/woolymammoth.asp
The wooly mammoth lived throughout North America from 1,000,000 to 10,000 years ago in the period known as the Pleistocene. Wooly mammoths were an average of 12 feet high at the shoulder and had huge curving tusks. Their fur was very thick, reddish-brown in color, and with a heavy undercoat. The accuracy of these observations has been made possible by the discovery of species preserved in their entirety in the frozen parts of Russia.
and finally, National Geographic
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...h-picture.html

most of my questions were about Gravity and its effect on the galaxy, it seems to me that if Gravity is spherical in all instance then our Galaxy and all the others that we observe would be shaped like a ball but so far all I can find are shaped more like a saucer.

please do not think I am a proponate or advisary,.. I am just wondering if these theories that are being spread around like facts do in fact have some merit in respect to gravity and the galaxy
and I post here to find answers not find opponates

Sure frozen mastadons have been found. But is there evidence of one frozen with food in its throat - your links don't show this.
The rotation of the galaxy would tend to flatten it into more of a disk shape.

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As Velikovsky said in his book, Earth in Upheaval:

" In 1797 the body of a mammoth, with flesh, skin, and
hair, was found in northeastern Siberia. The flesh had
the appearance of freshly frozen beef; it was edible, and
wolves and sled dogs fed on it without harm. The ground
must have been frozen ever since the day of their
entombment; had it not been frozen, the bodies of the
mammoths would have putrefied in a single summer, but
they remained unspoiled for some thousands of years. In
some mammoths, when discovered, even the eyeballs
were still preserved."

this shows that the cold became suddenly extreme ..
and knew no relenting afterward. In the stomachs and
between the teeth of the mammoths were found plants
and grasses that do not grow now in northern Siberia ..
(but are) .. now found in southern Siberia. Microscopic
examination of the skin showed red blood corpuscles,
which was proof not only of a sudden death, but that the
death was due to suffocation either by gases or water.


The Mastodon is a species that went extinct during the
past few pole shifts, primarily when the grasslands they
browsed in Siberia were drawn rapidly into the new
polar circle. But where drawn into water and drown, and
then far enough north, the Mastodons were flash frozen.
If the Mastodons were not flash frozen, they would be
in some sort of state of decay - perhaps the skin
preserved, but the internal organs a mush. This is not
the case, as your recent documentaries on the frozen state
of these preserved beasts shows! So if flash frozen, and
frozen steadily since that date, then how did the
Mastodons get green grass and buttercups in their
stomachs? A fast trot to the Arctic Circle? Does anyone
presume they ate snow? These were herbivors!

Velikovsky's work, however controversial in its time, was nothing if not exquisiutely and accurately footnoted and documented.

Back Gravity though,

so its the rotation of the galaxy and the mass of the galaxy itself that throws it out into the disc like shape? and in conclsion the black hole has no effect on our milky way galaxy, certainly not the kind of effect the sun has on our tiny solar system?

Yes.

I like to think of a lump of Pizza dough - spin it and the mass flings out while at the same time the gluten holds it together. This naturally turns it into a disk.

The difference between gravity and gluten, is that the effect of Gravity is felt in all directions. (That is, you don't have to be within the "disk" of the Galaxy to feel gravity from the objects within the Galaxy. You could be "above" the disk and be gravitationally attracted to it.)

Pretty much yes. The central black hole isn't by itself holding the Galaxy together.

For us, it's just the most massive of the many things at or near the core of the Galaxy.

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Although it isn't the main point of your post I would like to ask what you take the claim of 'Flash Freezing' to mean?
Do you take it to mean they were wandering around in a temperate climate, chewing on a bit of lunch and then 'Pop' they and their environment were frozen stiff in minutes?
Is the above quote by Velikovsky your authority for 'Flash Frozen' Mammoths?

Have you looked at any other refs regarding the frozen Mammoths? do they support your assertion?
In your earlier post the sources you link to don't seem to support the 'flash freezing' claim you are making.

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[nitpicking ]Frozen mammoths has been found , but frozen mastodons ? I am not sure.

And I think food or remains of food have been found in their intestinal track. [/nitpicking]

It's not disputed that frozen Mammoths with food in their intestinal tracts have been found, what is disputed is the 'Flash Frozen' while still chewing their lunch claim.

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Then by all means give us the original references he provided.

Vegetable matter "between the teeth" is pretty much the natural state for grinding herbivores with no access to dental hygiene products.

Red cells under the skin can appear for a number of reasons (including frostbite), so are not "proof" of death by suffocation.

Grant Hutchison

I am sorry but any event that could have taken an entire elephant and froze the meat so fast that natural decay did not take place, I think this would be hard to do in a technology of the modern era, short of a slaughter house deisel powered reefer unit or flying an elephant from africa to anarctica and dropping the thing into the -50F enviroment. and remember its not just 1 elephant errrr, mammoth but dozens they have found over the years anyway my Q's were mostly because I wanted to see if anyone out there actually knows enough about gravity and black holes to present convincing refutal evidence. the claim on " the sky is falling" doomsday theorists is that the black hole spins to fast and has such a dense gravitational line ( or disc ) spreading out like the surface of the water membrane being sucked into the vortex.
so,.. if such a theortical plane were to be drawn from the black hole out acrossed the galaxy,.. is this the line we are supposedly crossing in 12212012?
I had read answers that project the plane of the earth to the black hole ( not even close to what I was wondering ) and answers projecting the plane of the sun to the black hole, I dunno maybe I should forget about the whole event and take up knitting, thanks for your patients and explanations
(knit 1 pearl 2 knit 2 pearl 1 knit 2 pearl 0 knit 1 perl 2,... OOOH word removed the darn number is HERE TOOO)

No problem about where to place the post, and I should have explained ATM to you.

I do not dispute that there are frozen animals found, and the video you link to shows it. However, I do dispute the "woowoo" claims that have these animals "flash frozen" while eating lunch. Also, most reports show that the flesh of frozen mammoths usually decayed rathe quickly when unfrozen and put of a ghastly smell. Only the dogs and the wolves ate from it, the researchers refrained from doing so.

However, you don't want an ATM reply, but then start posting Velikovsky quotes? And apart from that, the whole thing has about NOTHING to do with the questions you asked in the first post, I guess you just like to put in random links in your posts (like the one about the earthquakes, which I still don't know what you want with) as you see fit. Stop doing that and keep on topic, please.

Then about your black hole, the spinning of the black hole will have some influence on the whole situation, but it will still NOT create a plane in which gravity works, that remains a spherical function.

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善數, 不用籌策 (shàn shù, bù yòng chóu cè)
He who is good at counting, uses no counting tools
“A good scientist has freed himself of concepts and keeps his mind open to what is”
道德經, 二十七 (dào dé jīng, 27)

as for providing the references quoted in Immanuel Velikovski's book, I am afraid I cannot find these online and a divorce removed my private library from my possesion. you might get lucky at the local library his books are hard to find as he was vilified by academia for not following the static universe spewed out in the 1940's
plenty of websights still hash out his proposals though

There's no evidence that this ever occurred; it's just a fable. Almost all the recovered mammoths (about 50 so far) are partial remains, showing extensive signs of decay. They had probably fallen into bogs or rivers, been partially preserved under relatively anoxic conditions, and later frozen. Think "bog bodies", not "flash frozen".

There's no such plane. The black hole has the same effect on us as any large spinning mass thousands of light years away: negligible.

Since there's no such thing, it's difficult to draw. But we are currently a few tens of light years from the central plane of the galaxy, and moving further away.

Grant Hutchison

as for the earthquakes, gravity being the all powerfull force it is wouldn't gravitational waves add energy to the earths core via vibration of mass and there by we would see a corresponding increase in earthquakes? as such energy sought a release point? I am asking here, not putting it out as fact.

He was 'vilified' for making things up as he went along and using events in the bible as evidence for his theories, but as Tusenfem points out, this has nothing to do with the original subject of your post.

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Read this article to get an idea of how small gravitational waves are thought to be, and how incredibly difficult they are to detect. I don't think the Earth's core has much to fear from them.

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Thank you all for the responce and most esp to Grant Hutchison for clear concise answers, I did not mean to turn this forum into a discussion of Velikovsky's interesting if not already outdated books nor debates in archeologyand fossil mammoths
in conclusion from your reply's I leave with these answers
#1 gravity waves do not exist and if they do they have no more effect than a doves feather floating softly to the ground
#2 there is no " galatic plane" and such a line cannot be drawn in theory or any other format through our milky way galaxy
# 3 we are moving in the opposite direction of any such " imaginary plane "
I am relieved that the universe is once again a stabile and benign enviroment that we can be sure will never change or waverin the milliniums to come, let alone as uncomfortably close a date as 12212012
thank you for enlightenment
your pupil
ANLWhip

As already said, yes, it is pretty clear that there is.

The term you wanted was probably "force" rather than "power".
Gravity is a force, but exists without expenditure of energy. Power
is a measure of the rate of energy expenditure.

The gravity of the black hole at the center of the Milky Way is
essentially spherically-symmetric.

The galaxy is flattened out like a pizza crust not because it
experienced forces like pizza dough being spun, but because of
friction between the gas and dust particles as the galaxy formed.
The particles were initially moving in all directions, randomly, but
as gravity pulled them together, they collided more and more often.
The result of the collisions was the formation of a rotating disk.
Particles in the disk are all moving in about the same direction, so
they don't often collide. Particles moving at an angle to the disk
collided with particles in the disk, so they ended up as part of the
disk. The angular momentum of particles in the original cloud and
the orientation of the disk that collapsed from the cloud together
determined how the particles are distributed throughout the disk.

The Milky Way's disk is very roughly 2000 light-years thick. We
can probably determine the centerline of the disk near our position
to an accuracy of plus or minus a few tens of light-years. It takes
many thousands of years for the Solar System to pass through
that distance, so it isn't possble to state the exact date, or year,
or century, or even millenium of such a passage. The last such
passage was many millenia ago, and we have been moving away
from the central plane ever since. Our speed away from the central
plane is slowing, though, and eventually we will begin moving toward
it again, and pass through it several million years from now.

The passage in 2012 of the Sun across the galactic plane is just
our view of where the Sun appears relative to the stars in the
distant background. It is about as meaningful as crossing the
Earth's equator. The line that the Sun crosses is an imaginary
line in the sky, and it crosses that line twice every year.

The passage in 1998 of the Sun across the galactic plane that
tusenfem referred to appears to be the one in recent times that
aligned most closely with the galactic center. ***Grant or someone
correct me if I have that wrong -- My sky map for 1998 doesn't show
that clearly. Neither the galactic plane nor the center are marked on
the map, so I'm interpreting the galactic co-ordinates from another
source.***

In any case, it was just that the Earth, the Sun, and the center
of the galaxy were momentarily lined up like you, a car going past
you on the road, and a distant water tower will be momentarily
lined up. There is no significance to the alignment. A person on
Mars would not see the alignment. Similar alignments happen
every day all around our Solar system for the various planets and
asteroids, and that is probably true of every planetary system in
the galaxy.

As others suggested, the animal was probably a mammoth rather
than a mastodon, and the vegetation was more likely found in its
stomach or intestines than in its throat. But I don't know anything
about mammoth digestion. They may have regurgitated cud. Or
the animal could have regurgitated as a result of freezing to death.
According to this web page:
http://elephant.elehost.com/About_El...ve_system.html
not much digestion takes place in an elephant's stomach. I expect
that mammoths functioned the same way.

Since the animal was found still frozen after thousands of years in
permafrost, it seems quite likely that it died the year the surface
became frozen year-round at that location, as the last ice age was
coming on. It might have drowned in a bog, or just frozen to death.
That doesn't sound like a particularly unusual event.

Every day. Animals drown or freeze to death all the time. Since
mammoths became extinct several thousand years ago, though,
there won't be any mammoths drowning or freezing in 2012.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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Not quite. Theory predicts gravitational waves (not to be confused with this), and there is indirect evidence that gravitational waves exist, but direct detection is very difficult. Compared to detection of gravitational waves, detecting the fall of a dove's feather is trivial.

There is no gravitational galactic plane as you suggested. You could, mathematically, draw an arbitrary plane if you wanted, but it would have no practical significance.

We're moving away from the geometric central plane of the galaxy.

Sarcasm? I don't think anyone suggested that the universe would never change.

There is certainly no evidence for any catastrophic astronomical events in 2012.

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A somewhat better and more detailed explanation of the yearly galactic
plane crossing in a post by Grant Hutchison:
Our Solar System's Eclipse of the Galactic Plane on Dec 21, 2012?

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

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and what about the EM just in the moment of the alignemt .. actualy 2012 is the event that will help us understand the dependancez between EM and Gravity

What moment of alignment are you referring to? What is supposed to be special about EM at that time? Please be specific and present your evidence.

What is the evidence, today, for this prediction? Perhaps you should start your own ATM thread.

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no


yes

but not because of a BH


don't know

north, I'd ask you to support your ATM ideas (in your own thread, of course) but from experience, it's pointless to ask.

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Disclaimer: Avatar is not an official NASA image and does not imply any specific interplanetary or interstellar capability.

The Leif Ericson Cruiser

Do you think he plays tennis?

.

ok,, at the risk of displaying my ignorance, EM would be?

and I will support you concerning the elf, I seen the little bugger in your back yard playing tennis