How can there be a different cosmology? If the effects of the stars, planets etc. are REAL, then the effect will occur WHATEVER my own ideas are. If my religious thoughts tell me that I can fly the REAL world will prove me wrong if I jump off a cliff.

I also have a family of pixies living at the bottom of my garden, but you can't see them if you don't believe in them!

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The meek will inherit the earth ... the rest of us will go to the stars.

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Carolyn

"All the screens are filled with heroes and losers, but the sky's still filled with stars"
...Midnight Oil - 'Golden Age'

Yep, "boys" (and girls), methinks this is another one of those "tell me what I already think" sorts of posts.
It doesn't matter what we say, the opposite will be stated just for the sake of being argumentative. It is my view that the author has little respect for modern times and modern knowledge.
I say, if the ancients knew so much better than we did, why did all of their kingdoms fail with nary a piece of proof they existed at all.

At least people will know we could manipulate the atom and create sythetics for millennia to come.

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"A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value." - Isaac Asimov

!!!

I was building a wizard before I totally understood how they worked and I thought.. hmmm, I will drop Divination so I can specialize... d'oh ops:. Anyhow, I put the wizard away and built something easier.

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

I suggest more reading on the Sumerians, to whom many of the "firsts" of civilization are attriubted; they possessed advanced legal and educational systems, astronomy, religion, arts, music and more, and even the zodiac or "animal circle." They called it the "shiny herd."
But their mathematics is of particular note - the sexigesimal system, base 60 - from which we get the foundations for Time Reckoning and which remains extant in today's world, particularly in astronomy; 360degree circle, 60mins, 60secs etc. Need I point out that the 12 divisions of 30 degrees in the "shiny herd" are necessarily rooted in the base 60 system?
The sexigesimal system is mathematically advanced and most certainly related to spherical geometry.
Amazing how "simple minded agriculturists" came up with the very systems still in use today, in both Astronomy and Astrology.

Many Greek historians spoke of far more ancient ages than accepted history allows, those of gods and demigods, but much of what they were told came to them from either the Babylonians (known to them as Chaldeans) or the Egyptians. Both of these cultures have striking similarities and parallels with the earlier Sumerian. The Greek Myths, too, are rooted in the Sumerian, and the notion of an "olympic twelve" derived from the base 60 system.

There's much more but I'll leave you with this:

Astrology: Between the Empirical and Religion.

"The Mesopotamian astrology, with its developed methods of calculation, spread rapidly during the Hellenistic period throughout the whole Mediterranean region. In 280 BC, the Babylonian Marduk priest Berossos founded an astrology school on the Greek island of Kos. He is said to have impressed the Athenians with his forecasts so greatly that they dedicated a statue with a golden tongue to him [20]. Around this time individual-birth astrology also caught on. While the interests of the state and natural events—such as the weather and earthquakes—had formerly been observed by astrologers, horoscopes were now additionally produced for individuals. Horoscopes were produced for the time of birth and in consideration of the birthplace, which were supposed to provide information about the course of one’s life and predispositions."

"It can be said, in summary, that: characteristic of Sumerian-Babylonian astrology is its pronounced cultic reverence of the heavenly bodies as gods and the contemporaneous development of precise methods for calculating their paths. About the Egyptian tradition of astrology, we know that the precise calculation of the planets was less important. It is true that it also recognizes the religious unity of cosmos and human beings as its main concern, but in terms of details it accentuates other aspects."

So, while it's obvious that astronomy and astrology have roots in Sumer, it appears that the Hellenistic influences were the cause of the "divination" aspects.
And because the Sumerians were "cultic" in revering the planets as "gods" I'm left thinking about The Twelfth Planet. :wink:

What a waste of time. I read this whole thread. It boils down to:
You boys (first error) don't know what astrology is and I do but I'm not gonna tell you. Plus, I'm so smart and so well-read that no one has a chance of proving me wrong. Let me throw some big words and arcane terms at you to prove it. Have to go now, my mom is coming.

Well I found this definition in here

yes the definition calls it a "Science".

All I can say is: No comments :-?

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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

How pretentious to use the term 'polytheistic science.'

If I were low enough to take such jabs, I would point out that this person, who, after demanding that he speak with only the most educated and well-read people here, who must have a deep basis in about 10 sciences, has gone on to not know what 'divination' is, and has failed to even look it up.

But, such things are below me.

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Begone, braggage!
My bible!

A few comments:
No, but by contrasting the work of real doctors with those of quacks we obtain insight into the methods of both and are thereby better equipped to evaluate the value of both.
The mistakes and irrationalities of philosophers speak volumes (too many volumes!) all by themselves.
No I do not. Philosophy, theology, music and harmony are irrelevant here. Astronomy, physics, mathematics, and geometry are the relevant fields. Astrology basically says, "Jupiter is here, Mars is over there, and that means something deeper and more consequential than their mere coordinates."
I don't often play the "Eurocentrism card", but I will here because your statement smacks of Eurocentrism of the very worst sort. Astrology also developed in India and China and has an extensive literature. It almost certainly developed in Central America as well, but most of its literature was presumably destroyed by the conquistadors. "Hellenic" astrology actually originated in earlier Mesopotamian and Egyptian cultures as pointed out by other posters in this thread. The most significant contribution of Greek culture to astrology was the Syntaxis of Ptolemy, which enabled planetary positions to be calculated more accurately than ever before. Ptolemy's theories were the standard theories for over a thousand years until superceded by the Rudolphine Tables of Kepler.
Is there a certification board for astrologers? Is there such a thing as an accredited degree in Astrology from a real university, not some correspondence school diploma mill?
There is no such thing as "polytheistic science" any more than there is "Christian science" (the sect that calls itself that notwithstanding), "Islamic science", or "Hindu science". There is just science, period. Also, what is this "frame of reference" that you speak of and why can't Astrology be comprehended outside of it? If I may paraphrase a sig I have seen here, "Everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs, but no one is entitled to their own facts."
I have seen so-called ephemerides used by astrologers. Positions are given as "12 Cancer", "28 Gemini" and the like. Sometimes there is a stylized "R" appended which indicates retrograde motion. (This is supposed to be significant.) I have yet to see an astrological ephemeris that gives latitude or distance, however. Now I will cut the ancients some slack because they had no clues as to distances either relative or absolute, but they were perfectly capable of observing latitude and they just ignored it. Ptolemy attempted to calculate latitude, but the results were not very accurate. Still, what credence can we give to a so-called "science" that throws away two-thirds of the data?

I think it would be interesting to see how an astrological ephemeris compares against a real ephemeris, such as Astronomical Ephemeris or Connaissance des Temps. Then we will see if the coordinates are measured from the equinoxes or some point in the constellation Aries.
I have that and more.

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I nominate Celestial Mechanic as the Grand High Chair of the BABB: Let's Play Astrology Debate Team.

=D>

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"A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value." - Isaac Asimov

I'll second that! Can we have a vote?

The ads at the bottom of this page will probably be different by the time you read this, but at the time of this writing two of the four ads are for "Vedic" astrology. One ad is for "Vedic astrology software", the other is for a so-called "Journal of Astrology" that offers "Great Research in Vedic Astrology, Magazine, Books, Free Lessons." Don't see anything labeled "Hellenic".

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I move we accept CM by acclaimation! =D> =D> =D> =D>

Now, where's the debatee?

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I am a doctor, but I don't play one on TV.

Starting new threads of course silly. :-? #-o

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Old laser physicists never die, they just become incoherent.
These days, every Tom, Dick, and Harry thinks he knows what a photon is, but he is wrong. - Albert Einstein

The definition as I had written begins with the name. It is not "my" definition but the specific definition that origins from the very term "astrology". Whoever ignores this, ignores Astrology. This goes both for pseudos and sceptics. I have opened a new thread to analyze the word "astrology" according to Hellenes, since "astrology" is a hellenic word.

It seems that Merriam-Webster ignores the meaning of the word, so how can it give a definition?
I do not know of course what "divination" is, but I know what Astrology is. So I am in a position to reject a definition given by someone who ignores the meaning of the term "astrology". And I am certain also that mathematical/geometrical models are never called "divination".

Well, that explains it all.

Different cosmologies:
a. there is one god-constructor of Multiverse who lies outside Multiverse. Since Multiverse is a technical construction of this one-god thing, it is "dead" matter that gets the "spirit" from this one-god thingie..
-there is only one god thingie and it is located outside of the Multiverse so that Multiverse can be something like its favourite videogame to pass its time. This god thingie must be very lonely and practises absolute monarchy because of its psychological complex.
b. Multiverse cannot be a construction therefore there can be no one-god creator of it. It is living matter with the annoying habitsof self-existence, self-motion and self-conscience. There are infinite gods that are inside the Multiverse, they administrate parts of it and they have lots of fun with each other so they are never lonely and do not need to be absolute monarchs. After all, there are many of them around so noone can be "monarch".

Now these two cases present two very different cosmologies therefore two very different systems of perceiving "reality". What is "reality" anyway? To perceive needs to have the necessary senses. The Sun may exist but if hypothetically we are blind, we cannot see it, so it does not exist in our hypothetical blind "reality". "Reality" is merely the perception of our senses. Not the actual nature of Beings.
Say hello to your fairies from me.

I have no respect for christian-oriented times and christian-oriented "knowledge". The ancients did know much better since they had something very important: aesthetics. Not to mention they could live on the planet without destroying most of its ecosystems in so little time and to produce so much junk that is really not so necessary. As for "proof", those "nice" christians did their best to burn and destroy every proof they could find on anything better than them. Fortunately they failed.

So we can manipulate the atom and create synthetics. And? Can it make me happier? Can it give me the knowledge of where the Psyches come from and where they go after death? Can it make me a hero? A daemon (semi-god? Is this the path that I should follow in order to evolute my existence? Is this how I can become a Goddess?

You mean Sumerians were around in "-45000"? Wow... those "bad" Aegyptians must have forgotten to record that.

I suggest more reading on the Assyrians. More reading on the mythical city Nineveh and its mythical founder Ninnos (whom Nineveh got its name from). And more reading on the ancestors of Ninnos, that go back to the mythical roy Sur-matreus, son of Lykaon, son of Pelasgus (whom the Assyrians got their name from, As-sur-). More reading (and maybe some understanding) on mythology, the symbolic language used to teach theology and pass on information while at the same time hiding it from those who were not capable of handling knowledge. Maybe more reading about the Phoenicians and about the Minoans and about the Aegyptians.

It is earlier sumerian that has striking similarities with much more ancient civilisations like the Aegyptian, the Hellenic, the Hindu. I point out to the names "mesopotamia", "tigres" and "euphrates" all hellenic names. Now, "babylonians" were not around before Alexander. Why? Because the city of Babylon was built from Alexander. Prior to him, Babylon was the name of an area of mesopotamia. Why? Because in this area was a chasm out of which lava flowed and near it was a lake of "naftha" (=petrol) which caught fire easily even with the rays of the sun. This had impressed greately the locals so they named it Babylon. Why? Because Babylon means "gate" or "gate of gods" (depends if you spell Bab-el with one or two l's in the language of the locals). How many Babylons were there? Many. The mythical gardens that Semiramis built (the wife of Ninnos) were named Babylon gardens. The "wise Persians" are coming from "Babylon" says Aeschylus, using this poetic expression in his tragedy "Persai". In the Hammurabi code the "Babylon" is the city where the bright Gods live. It is a mythical reference to a mythical Babylon. In the same way that there is the mythical Olympus were the Gods of Hellenes live. In antiquity there were many mountains that were called Olympus, because they were "high" and resempled the mythical Olympus. However the mythical Olympus was not the various mountains. Mythology is a symbolic language. It should be not mixed with historical facts. Mythology is actual but never literal.

Marduk is Zeus. Berossos is an Assyrian name.

Thales had developed an Astrology model before the "-600". Being challenged by his co-citizens if this model of his was of any use and if one could make money out of it, he decided to take the challenge. He was able to calculate that this year the harvest of the olive trees in Miletus would be very rich. Thales did not announce his predicion but did something quite smarter: he rented some "elaiourgeia" (places where olives are processed into oil) and waited. When the time came the olive harvest was indeed very rich. Thales sub-rented the elaiourgeia and made a lot of money out of the deal. When he proved that his model worked he said to his co-citizens: "easily a philosopher can make money if he wants to but this is not the primary intend of his studies". The story about Thales is mentioned by Aristotle, I forget in what book.

Natal astrology was not very much an interest among Hellenes because for future consulting they utilized the Oracle Temples (and there were many, Delphi, Dodone and Amphiaraeion being the most known). The Hellenes used mostly what we today call "electional" Astrology, for astral-aligning certain actions (temple building, statue making, ceremonies, begin a war, found a city etc.) in a way to "design" the future instead of predicting it, since Hellenes did not consider future to be really predetermined.

It was in fact the Hellenic astrology, philosophy and way of life that spread around during the Hellenistic period, after Alexander, who had founded many cities and Hellenic colonies. The Hellenic flow of ideas influenced many cultures, including the Roman that followed later on. During the reign of Seleukides, appears the phaeonomenon of hellenized judaeans, that caused the terrible revolt of the Macabeans who did not like idolatry, resulting in huge slaughters for decades.

Characteristic of Hellenic Theology/Philosophy is the view of the stars as the Visible Gods. This dates back from the times of the beginning of the Orphic religion, which is really old and possibly pre-cataclysmic (Plato in Timaeus dates the last flood, 9000 years before his time). Hellenes have recorded three "flood" catastrophes, the last one being of the Deukalion, son of Prometheus, who with the advice of his father and with the help of Athena built a ship. This is described in Hesiod and dates way back before the development of the judaean traditions about "noah".

Characterisic of Aeygyptian Religion is the view of the stars as Gods (Atum, the primary form of Re, Isis connected with the star of Sirius that signified the annual Nile flood etc). The Aegyptians never ever ever spoke of some "unity" of cosmos, because they named Atum each star at its primary stage of evolution and not only the sun, and they considered the cosmos multiple and infinite, with diversity and differiantation, as all the polytheistic religions do. That is why we use the word Multiverse and not "universe", since universe derives from uni-, one. And there is no one basic principle, substance, whatever.

The usual "wise babylonians or chaldeans" hoax that has been circulating among careless historians has its origins in the writings of the first church fathers, like Eusebio Caesaria, Clemens Alexandrean and Justin Martyr. A simple search in the TLG (Thesaurus Lingua Graeca, from http://www.tlg.uci.edu/) is enough to show this.

For example, I run a search on Thales and Pythagoras. ALL sources said that Thales and Pythagoras had been to Aegypt. ONLY. But suddenly from the 2nd century and afterwards appear fragments in the early christian texts that claim that Thales and Pythagoras studied in Babylon and were taught by chaldeans. And this Justin Martyr even dared to write that Orpheus and orphic tradition is...monotheistic! Cute one... But not worthy of any historical information.

There were no "babylonians" prior to "-500". There was no babylon city in the area of Mesopotamia prior to Alexander. There were no "wise chaldeans" around in the times of Thales, Pythagoras etc. The term chaldeans, according to TLG texts, appears for the first time in the writings of Herodotus and refers to the inhabidants of an area close to Mesopotamia that today corresponds to Kuweit. During the Hellenistic period, the term "chaldeans" begins to apply to certain Persians who were involved with some kinds of astrology and magic (there is a long standing magic tradition among Persians, possibly influenced by Aegyptians). During the Roman period the term "chaldean" applies to all that have to do with astrology or magic or omen-telling and during the late Roman period the term "chaldean" becomes a synonym for those fraud-omen-tellers or "astrologers" and gains a bad reputation.

TLG is very useful tool if one wants to clarify some unspeakable claims of some very careless historians. One has to be able to read ancient hellenic to and this is quite a problem. Still, a good look into the original texts can turn upside down many of the popular hoaxes concerning history of ancient times.

Was it the "science" that upset you? Tsk tsk tsk...
Alan Leo practised the tropical fraud and did not calculate actual stellar positions. He is outside the field of definition of Astrology, so how can we take him seriously?

And yes Astrology is a science. With lots of maths and geometry and philosophy and theology too. Which if are taken out, we cannot speak of Astrology.

I wonder if we took maths, geometry, physics and chemistry out of Astronomy, how would Astronomy look then? It certainly wouldn't be considered a science and everyone would laugh about those black hole theories...

Why, does it upset you? I have other words too than can describe Hellenic, Aegyptian, Persian, Hindu and other ancient cultures. Idolaters, heathens, pagans, goyim.

How about these?

[quote="Celestial Mechanic"]
No I do not. Philosophy, theology, music and harmony are irrelevant here. Astronomy, physics, mathematics, and geometry are the relevant fields. Astrology basically says, "Jupiter is here, Mars is over there, and that means something deeper and more consequential than their mere coordinates."

I don't often play the "Eurocentrism card", but I will here because your statement smacks of Eurocentrism of the very worst sort. Astrology also developed in India and China and has an extensive literature. It almost certainly developed in Central America as well, but most of its literature was presumably destroyed by the conquistadors. "Hellenic" astrology actually originated in earlier Mesopotamian and Egyptian cultures as pointed out by other posters in this thread. The most significant contribution of Greek culture to astrology was the Syntaxis of Ptolemy, which enabled planetary positions to be calculated more accurately than ever before. Ptolemy's theories were the standard theories for over a thousand years until superceded by the Rudolphine Tables of Kepler.

Astrology does not basically say "jupiter is here, mars is there and this means something deeper". It does require mathematics, geometry, philosophy, theology, music and harmony.
All the basis of "western astrology" is the Hellenic astrology. That is why we speak of Aries (that refers to the Ram with the golden fleece) and not of Leou-siou, referring to the harvesting of crops (as in Chinese astrology) or Tammuz Dum-uzi, the Only Son of Life (as in Mesopotamia). The astrological properties of the constellations origin in the Hellenic myths not in chinese or hindu. The planets use the Roman equivalents of the Hellen Gods' names and aquire the properties of those Gods and not of the Hindu or chinese or whatever else. And the most significant contribution of Greek culture to astrology was not Ptolemy's work, but the works of Homer, Orpheus, Hesiod, Thales, Heracletus, Eudoxus, Eudemus, Aratus, Eratosthenes, Oinopedes, Poseidonius, Plato, Aristotle, Pythagoras, Geminus, Cleomedes, Aristarchus and Hipparchus, to name only a few. Before Ptolemy.

I suggest you take a look into them and then talk further. What on earth does "eurocentrism" have to do with all these anyway?

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A SACRED NEW ORDER IS EMERGING THROUGH A MILLION THUNDERS!!!!!

Not necessarily. It may be that you are in such a position, and it may be that you are not. It all depends on whether you can show that the Merriam-Webster's definition is incompatible with your own. What, exactly, is wrong with the Merriam-Webster's definition?

That isn't what you said before:

According to the Merriam-Webster,

I don't see anything in this definition that would exclude methods involving mathematical/geometrical models or an integrated philosophical/theological corpus.

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"The moment we want to believe something, we suddenly see all the arguments for it, and become blind to the arguments against it." -George Bernard Shaw

Hekate, your original post isn't reasonable. I do not need to know hellenistic theology to debate astrology on a board dedicated to astronomy and science.

Astrology of any sort must make a series of testable and falsifiable claims. These are generally based on measurements of the planets and their influence on human affairs. This is what must be known to make a debate. But first, astrology must establish that there is a connection, and that predictions can be reasonably made that are statistically significant above random chance.

Once that is established, I will be happy to engage in a thread like this.

It still sounds like crap to me... if this "god-thingy" made the universe/multiverse who made the god and where was it?
If you say somewhere "outside" the universe - that just moves the argument back one stage, who made that place and where is it? The argument just recedes for ever. I don't know who/what made the universe and I admit that I don't know, I don't make up stories and claim that they are true.

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The meek will inherit the earth ... the rest of us will go to the stars.

Noone did. Multiverse is not a construction. It only requires Logic to understand that.
http://www.drgnslfthnd.org/articles.html

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A SACRED NEW ORDER IS EMERGING THROUGH A MILLION THUNDERS!!!!!

Words can have multiple meanings. Astrology as most people know it is something different from what you're describing. That's why I was saying you need to give the definition you work with (which it appears you've done with the other thread). The Merriam-Webster definition is not wrong, its just different.

Well here is a good definition of Science (From Merriam-Webster):

Of course here is the definition of the Scientific Method (Again from Merriam-Webster) (Emphasis mine)

You can put all the Mathematics (Geometry being a branch of it) you want into Astrology and THAT doesn't make it Science. What WOULD make it a Science would be that whatever claims Astrology makes were obtained and Tested by the Scientific Method.

Here is a good definition of Philosophy: (again Merriam-Webster)

And Theology:

Philosophy and Theology, well, they are NOT sciences.

[Editted to clarify the defintion of Science according to Merriam-Webster]

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Sic Transit Gloria Mundi

Actually the egyptians conveyed lineages of gods, demigods and kings that reach even further into antiquity, and many of the "myths" associated with them are apparently Sumerian in origin. So much of what Western Civilization is was began in Sumer. And to the Sumerians it was the Anunnaki ("those from heaven to earth came") who dwelt on earth in those remote times, who bestowed "kingship" on Man, and taught them "everything we know." This is also mirrored in world mythologies through "golden ages" when only "gods" dwelt on the earth, and in subsequent "Ages" of Man, with "demigods" and kings.

Thanks, I've read much.

I disagree. I think the Egyptian and Hindu civs were offshoots. Sumerian "myths" relate the dividing of territories of 3 anunnaki "gods" - the mesopotamian civ, the Nile civ. and the Indus Valley civ.

Not entirely true, much in "mythology" has been corroborated as factual, people, places, events.
I've found that by reading "mythology" as literal, a more cohesive history emerges. One where the "gods" of ancient polytheisitic scientific civilizations, namely the Sumerian, were "those from heaven to earth came" and guided the development of civilization of men.
But I digress...

Marduk is also Ra.
But the Babylonian Enuma Elish is based on an earlier Sumerian "epic of creation" whereby the "gods" were planets. Marduk was inserted in place of the Sumerian Nibiru so to to be elevated amongst the planetary "gods." There were 12 and Zeus' Jupiter is already accounted for in the Sumerian "epic" as Anshar. So, who or what is the "god" Nibiru? If it's a planet, it could account for Astrology's lacking a 12th planetary body.
Odd is that Marduk was found to be a real person.
So is it "actual mythology" or is it "literal mythology?"

To Hekate:

cyreks reply:

Astrology is an ancient art that has been superseeded by astronomy because astronomy has the instruments and research to support it.

Astrology is more of a subjective interpretation of its results.
The only credibility I can see in astrology is the remarkable cooincidence between the presidential assasinations and the planetary conjunctions with Jupiter and Saturn every 20 years or so.

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aka Michael Cyrek

well after breezing thru this thread so to speak Hekates understanding of what astrology is differs from what the majority of people "understand" astrology to be. That was summed up by the bad astronomer himself.
At first I thought you were confusing us with some sort of judeochristan based Individuals by your refrences to christianity, ect. Either you were or your used to arguing with such types.? Or maybe you were kinda sending out feelers to see the reactions? Or pointing out the foundations of modern astrology are based on incorrect information?

doesnt matter really. The merrits or lack of merrits we discuss about "astrology"
are directed towards those who believe astrology to be a science. your concept is a religious concept.

It's an extremely stupid concept, no matter what Hekate posts. The thought that distant bodies can influence events or people is ludicrous.. End of story.

Aside to cyrek1: read this

Ha Ha, I have always found those coincidences to be funny, but I do not take them as a sign of any great conspiracies, or proofs of something strange. It was interseting though to see a rational explination of them.

I seem to remember reading or hearing somewhere about the (and I am going to name it the wrong thing) "20 year presidential assination curse." I think that it is based on the fact that Kennedy was assisinated in the 60's, there was an attempt on Regan in the 80's and thus now in the 2000's there will be an aptempt on Bush.

I do not know this for a fact, but I am sure that all over the world there are people wishing harm or death to the President of the US, regardless of what year it is.

Well thanks for listening to me babbel.

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Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future.

--Niels Bohr, Danish Physicist.

Exactly. There have been attempts by others on this board to convince us to accept the beliefs and writings of past cultures literally, when there is no evidence why we should. Just because they wrote it doesn't necessarily mean it's true; it just means they wrote it. It's not even proof they believed it. Arguments that past peoples couldn't possibly be that creative are unfounded. We're pretty good at making up bizarre stories (look around at some of the sites on the internet for proof of that), so why couldn't they? What makes the people of the past so literal when compared to us?

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

I'm pretty sure astrology in any form is nonsense so I don't have a lot to contribute here, sorry, but I just have to comment...

What a pretentious, snotty b***h. I would suggest in the future if you wish to debate, you pry out the copy of whatever first year university history textbook you have shoved up your *ss and learn to actually deal with people.

Please don't construe this as being unneccessarily mean. I did read this:

"It seems that Merriam-Webster ignores the meaning of the word, so how can it give a definition?
I do not know of course what "divination" is, but I know what Astrology is. So I am in a position to reject a definition given by someone who ignores the meaning of the term "astrology."

The leading dictionary of the English language doesn't have it, but she sure does. Give me a break.

Actually, that's the Tecumseh curse. Supposedly, every president who is elected in a year ending in 0 would die in office, starting with William Henry Harrison, who was a well-known "Indian Fighter" in his earlier days.

1840 - William Henry Harrison, died of pneumonia 30 days after taking office.

1860 - Abraham Lincoln, assassinated by John Wilkes Booth

1880 - James Garfield, assassinated after only six months

1900 - William McKinley (second term), assassinated in September 1901.

1920 - Warren G. Harding, died of a heart attack in August 1923

1940 - Franklin Delano Roosevelt (third term). Was elected to a fourth term in 1944. Died of a cerebral hemorrhage in April '45.

1960 - John F. Kennedy, assasssinated by Lee Harvey Oswald in November '63

1980 - Ronald Reagan. Was shot by John Hinckley, but did not die.

2000 - George W. Bush. Still with us.



(James Monroe was elected in 1820 and Thomas Jefferson in 1800. This was before the "curse," and neither died in office. The first presidential election was in early 1789, when George Washington was elected. Zachary Taylor, elected in 1848, died of an intestinal ailment in 1850. He's the only president who died in office and was not elected in a 0 year.)

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SeanF

"Ask to understand, but don't challenge unless you have the knowledge."--NEOWatcher

The contents of this post are ©2009 by SeanF and may not be copied or retransmitted in any form without the express written consent of SeanF

How fortunate, for Chirstmas I got a copy of Ptolemy's Tetrabiblos, an astrological instruction manuel. I will let you guys know what the ancients really thought about astrology, even if Hekate wants to keep it a secret.

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.