In order to "seriously debate" with you, you must take a position. What is your position, anyway?

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

I understand how you feel, but you've got to be a bit more careful how you say it. I must confess that Hekate's demeanor sort of reminds me of the old Frank Zappa song "Camarillo Brillo". To quote a bit:
Edited to add: Wow, has Frank Zappa really been gone for ten years now?

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Microsoft is over if you want it.

The bar has been lowered for the promotion of ATM ideas; the bar for the acceptance of ATM ideas must remain high.

I've also noticed that every president who died in office was elected in a year starting with '1'. It can't possibly be a coincidence!
I think it's the 'TriangleMan Curse'! :wink:

Interesting.
Did you ask for it?

Here's a link to the text so we can all read it and decide for ourselves. And keep in mind that by Ptolemy's time the zodiac had been in use at least 3 millenia, so knowing what the "ancients really thought about astrology" would require much earlier sources.
But here Ptolemy is arguing for Astrology and makes some interesting assertions about the effects between all the various bodies in the cosmos.

Neat.

How dissappointing that hekate has abandoned us, from what I can see. Could have been a lot of fun.

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Begone, braggage!
My bible!

Apparently not for Hekate who seems to have quietly taken the approach of Blaze . I guess some people just don't like our style of debate here.

Don't be too hasty to judge her dissappearance. Hekate stated at the bottom of this post that she would be gone for a week.

Oh, I forgot about that. Sorry Hekate - guess the comparison with Blaze wasn't fair. I retract that.

A. DIM,

I didn't ask for it specifically, I asked for any of the Loeb Library dual language books, and by the time the person got there, that was the last one. As far as astrology being around before Ptolemy, I wasn't trying to imply otherwise, it just seemed like Hekate wanted to talk about Hellenic astrology. I also consider Classical Greece and Rome to be ancient, even if there is more ancient stuff around

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

In think in order to have a meaningful debate you should "know well" physics, astronomy, biology, geology, crockpot cookery, Gaelic languages, indoor electrical wiring...ok, maybe just the first four. Not saying you don't, but since there's a list of requirements they need to be on there as well.

Also, please define "astrology." This is silly. I was hoping to see some interesting debate on the validity of astrology but 3 pages later I'm posting asking for the very item to be debated. I feel like I've arrived at a restaraunt and have been asked to prepare my own meal and serve myself. Does this follow "the principles of logical debate?"

"Let's have a debate but first you have to guess what we're debating..."

EDIT: Ok, looks like the definition is here.

I can help with the crockpot cookery and the indoor electrical wiring. And one day I hope to know some Gaelic .

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

I see.
Have you had a chance to peruse the book yet? Interesting stuff, no?
Has anybody else read from the Tetrabiblos text? What say you?
Was Ptolemy a "woowoo?"

Well I can't do Gaelic, but I can do Danish, is that close enough?

I know, I know--be quiet--it does not count. [-X

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Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future.

--Niels Bohr, Danish Physicist.

Oh, piffle.

Here we go again with the one true believer lording his intellectual supremacy over the rest of us in the great unwashed, because we don't know what he knows...

Well, frog snot, I say.

Hekate, it is not up to us or anyone else to prove the negative. It is up to you to prove the positive, that astrology works. And guess what -- you get to define astrology!

So come down off ye olde high horse and reveal to us the mysteries, oh great one...

And just remember, before you accuse me of having an attitude -- you're the original poster. You threw down the gauntlet. You started this.

Don't start something you don't want to finish.

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"If a tree is cut down in the rainforest, and is used to make paper to print a book, and the book is really bad, and there's nobody that will read it, do you still hear a sucking sound?"
Charlie in Dayton, A.AsC.

Good gracious, what language! Please try to control yourself.

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! The true elitist emerges! How's that for a debate tactic? "I'd explain it to you, but your feeble mind couldn't comprehend it." Well, I say fine, go back to contemplating your navel and spare us your "inner theological concepts that are quite complex."

The scary part is, Hekate probably really sees his/her torrent of verbiage as a spring of capital truths and him/herself as an oracle. Of course, he/she would not be the first the be so self-delusional...

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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

Hmmm, it has been close to two weeks now since Hekate went on vacation. I wonder where she is? :-?

Apparently trolling some other message board, where the denizens are less demanding of evidence and proof.

:roll:

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Help! Marxist literary critics are following me!

Heh. Well put. :-)

ADim: What you write are the usual hoaxes circulating around the net. The ghost Nibiru planet, that the Gods are aliens and other fascinating but highly unreal stories. Gods are Gods anyway. They do not need spaceships and lazer weapons. If they did they would not be Gods, would they?
You waste your time trying to read mythology in a literal way. You are not a polytheist and you do not know their ways of thinking, their theology, their views and knowledge of the Multiverse and their way of writing about it. But in case that Mythology does interest you, then it'd spare you from lot of trouble if you found a proper Priest/Priestess (proper=not a..."pagan" or.... "wiccan" or their various mutations) of some well-known polytheistic religion to talk with?

It is true though. One cannot explain particle physics to someone who has not learned the preliminaries in physics, can they? The problem is that you think that I am the sort of person that wastes time on useless tricks and that you think that whoever discusses with someone tries to trick (which propably could be the way YOU are used to think and discuss). If I wanted to play though, I would point out that you're doing nothing but attacking me personally. (Besides, I do deliver Oracles under the proper circumstances since I am trained in Mancery, like all the Priestesses of my rank, and I do not see any reason why you think you can use the term Oracle ironically).

Concepts like "theogony", "astrogony", "psychogony" and "cosmogony" are not something that can be learned "in 21 days". Even when I wrote about the "Logos" concept, I merely touched the surface and indeed how many did understood what I wrote?

I have seen not even one comment on the Logos concept. How should I take that? Agreement? Disagreement? Understanding? Misunderstanding? What?

Some people noted that I take the religious point of view. But of course I do. In a "world complete with Daemons and Gods" what else would any reasonable person take? And why indeed should religion be cast out? It is stupid not to speak of Gods and what they do, since Astrology deals with the Stars, who are the Visible Gods.

I have already posted a link to an article that step-by-step explains why it is logically impossible for Gods not to exist. Has anyone read that? I have seen also no comments on that.

But I saw many shallow and irrelevant comments from people that are under the impression that they can attack me as a person (!!!!!).... How should I take that? As impotency for answering to my writings maybe?

Some are under the impression that religion is against science. But it is impossible for religion to be against science. If it is trully religion then it is according to science and if it is trully science it is according to religion. One presupposes the other and these have never been seperated or at bad terms in all civilisations of earth.

Of course if someone has not understood that christianity is not a religion but a political ideology (like communism for instance) then tend to confuse it with religion and tends to level religion with slave-breeding ideologies for mass control. And then usually will take the reactive stance and having mixed up religion with slave breeding ideologies, will mistake all religions for such and will think that they are against "science".

Which is not the case. But even "science" in the modern sense is problematic. Because it has not achieved to exit the christian way of thinking. The christians say "there is lifeless matter and some phantom materless spirit". The scientists point out that the christians are dumb and then proceed to study their object of study as if there was lifeless matter and some phantom materless spirit. The christians say "there is one phantom materless multiverse-outsider god" and the scientists point out that the christians are irrational and then proceed to study their objects of study as if there is complete abscence of ALL Gods (who are material and inside multiverse and lots of other things).

And finally, no I am not writing against christianity in order to... "test" anybody (what do you think I am, the....."lord", testing your....faith??? ). I am writing about it because despite its irrationality it does dominate the way of thinking of almost all "scientists" in the western world, who have accepted those irrationalities about fundamental concepts (matter/energy, cosmos, psyche, star, life, conscience, Gods, Daemons) without being able yet to exit this paranoia. And I am writing about christianity because as I already have said, Astrology is a polytheistic science and cannot be viewd/talked about/comprehended outside is system-of-reference.

We call the system-of-reference through which men attempt to comprehend the world around them as "Cosmoidol". And in polytheism there is a wholly different Cosmoidol, totally strange for someone who has only been acquainted with the irrational christian model or the more irrational reactive atheism (both are sides of the same coin anyway). So again here there are no tricks and there is nothing "hiding behind" the above sentence that Astrology is a polytheistic science and cannot be vied/comprehened etc. outside its Cosmoidol. Because it is. Because Astrology emerged and developed in polytheistic civilisations, while it reached it highest peak in Hellenic - and that is why all the modern "astrology" uses the Hellenic myths, the Hellen Gods' properties, the Pythagorean doctrine about numbers that gave birth to the Aspect theory, the Stoic doctrine that gave birth to House system (actually the Topos system, to name it correctly). Not to mention the Aegyptian and Hindu uses of Astrology. So where is the difficulty or the trick?

In any case, as I wrote in my other post to, there is no way to conduct an interesting debate, with all these things: the "obsession with trick", the confusion about religion and the leveling of religion without a single one of you ever having been acquainted with any proper religion, the lack of answering or commenting on "Logos" concept, on the Multiverse, on the infinite Gods (I bet that noone read the article in the link I gave), so why should I continue writing? Is there some gain for me? If there had been some worthy philosophical answers, then I would benefit from the interaction and would find the whole situation interesting. Which I do not.

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A SACRED NEW ORDER IS EMERGING THROUGH A MILLION THUNDERS!!!!!

Ahhh...Enter the post-modernism ideas. There is some feminist ideas leaking in, but i am not sure yet.

I wish i could comment on them, but i have no clue what the heck you just said.


[edited for some clarity and possible misunderstanding trhat could come about.]

It sunds like Hekate is part of some Astrology Cult... where can I sign up?

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Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.

I am not sure we can. By the sounds of it none of us are smart enought to ever join. :roll:

heh .. Hekate hides her lack of substance behind word salad. She comes off as a New Age sorceress that woke with a "I don't believe I drank the whole cauldron!" hangover and a bent magic wand.

Yes. Yes, of course they are. And these nice clean spectra showing that they consist of Hydrogen, Helium and just a few traces of other things, along with a reasonably decent model of stellar fusion to explain it are just a big cover-up, aren't they?

Mind you, as Godlike displays of power go, pulsars and supernovae are both pretty impressive.

Tell you what, Hekate... since this is an astronomy board, and since you apparently despair of us ever grasping the nuances of your advanced concepts, why don't you just show us what kind of testable observations astrology (whatever you take it to mean) makes? You don't even have to try to explain how it works. Let's just look at the empirical predictions. Simple enough, no?

So, let me get this straight. Hekate is free to tell us we're ignorant and unable to comprehend anything she has to say, and yet, we're attacking her? :-?

Not only that, why would you bother trying to talk with people that are incapable of understanding you?

Then, there's the issue of subject matter. Do I go over to the Angel boards and start talking about Astronomy? I don't think so.

The owner of this board has said not to discuss religion. Clearly, people need to be reminded that the First Amendment does not apply on a privately hosted bulletin board. *sigh*

That is just touching the tip of the ice berg on what is wrong with the above "word salad" as Archer17 so aptly put it.

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

I agree...extremely simple, if astrology actually worked!

Come on, Hekate...rise to the challenge!! Show us the testable observations and when you realise you can't...admit it gracefully.

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"The facts gentlemen, and nothing but the facts, for careful eyes are narrowly watching." Isaac Asimov

That's a wonderful expression! I'll have to remember it. =D>