Well, nice forum. I was looking for such a forum...really.

But enough with the courtesies. I have noticed some critisims against Astrology. Mostly from people who have not got a single clue on what Astrology actually is.

And since they have not got a single clue, they somehow have managed to mistake all these pseudo-astrologers for astrologers. And somehow they are under the impression that critisizing the irrationality of the pseudos, is a valid critisism on...Astrology!

Now, one cannot critisize negatively the science of medicine by pointing at non-doctors, right? Or the science of philosophy by pointing out the mistakes and irrationalities of non-philosophers, right? In addition, in the science of medicine there can be found many incompetent doctors but this does not mean that medicine is some fake and unworthy, does it?

So, first of all, to critisize Astrology, one has first to know what Astrology is about. Which is not the case if I judge from your posts.

Now, the challenge:
I invite you to seriously debate with me, on Astrology, according to the principles of logical debate. But I will only discuss with the best among you. You have to know well philosophy, theology, mathematics, geometry, music & harmony. You are required to have a profound knowledge of polytheistic religions, especially the ancient Hellenic, since Astrology originated and developed in the Hellenic civilisation.

Tip:
Define Astrology. All things begin with their definitions. And the definitions begins with their names. Define Astrology. I do not want to hear irrationalities such as "a divination system" and other hilarious stuff.

2nd Tip:
Do not mistake pseudo-astrologers with actual astrologers. Astrology is a polytheistic science and cannot be comprehended outside its frame-of-reference. Christian atheists and the likes cannot be astrologers, since they have a very different cosmology and have never taken any serious approach to polytheism.

3rd Tip:
Astrology always calculates the exact stellar positions in a horoscope. This tropical fraud thing is not Astrology, but a nice way for christians to waste their time.


So...do you have what it takes to debate with me?

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I won't debate with you. But let me share this- I'm a triple Aquarius, Sun Moon & Venus. I should get the hecate reference but I don't. Who is he/she?

Haven't you guys read anything else besides the bible?

Hekate is a Goddess, of Hellenes. Try Hesiod or Orpheus for more. Or you can check www.theoi.com for her.

By the way are you sure you are Aquarius? The Dodecatemory of Aquarius extends from 15 Feb to 15 March, if the actual sidereal position is calculated.

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I am wondering how a "serious" debate can be had when the caller of said debate has facts wrong.

Modern "astrology" may indeed have Hellenistic roots, however, the divination of signs/conjunctions/alignments and perceived powers/celestial will derived from regions of space associated with what we today call the Zodiacal constellations predates the Classical Greek Age by a few thousand years.

(Edit: I originally said "Hellenistic roots" for modern astrology. I should, now that I think on it, say "Hellenistic influences" since the root can be more accurately planted in Sumerian soil — perhaps even earlier.)

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"A subtle thought that is in error may yet give rise to fruitful inquiry that can establish truths of great value." - Isaac Asimov

I'm Ophiucus. What's in store for me?

Hellenistic extends from the period after Alexander the Great until the predomination of christianity (around the "6th cent bce"). I wrote Hellenic, not Hellenistic.

What exactly is divination anyway? I know of Mancery (oracle of Delphi, of Dodone) of necyomancy, of dream-mancery and of the therapeutic temples of Asclepius where a special kind of Mancery was practised. Plato in Phaedrus analyzes what Mancery is about. Now, of divination I do not know about. Can you help me?

Now, modern "astrology" has little relevance with actual Astrology. The definitions have been mixed and there is a transfer of properties from planets to topoi (who usually are wrongly called houses), from planets to zodia, from zodia to planets and topic and gods know what else. But in actual Astrology there are strict limits on all these three concepts (zodion, topos, planet) and a specific rational behind each, which is totally missing today. Not to mention that it is completely desynched from actual stellar positions. Which is unthinkable in Astrology. What is the point of studying the influences of planets, stars, constellations etc if one takes imaginary position? There is no point, no logic in that.

I recommen this article for an intro in Astrology:
http://www.projecthindsight.com/fate.htm

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Wouldn't it make more sense for you to define astrology rather than have us take a guess as to what your definition of astrology is? Then we can skip the whole formality of you telling us we have the wrong definition of astrology and get right to the meat and potatoes of whether or not there is any validity to astrology as you define it.

Good point, dgruss. We don't need another JoeTheBartender.

No, it is you that should define it. Since you think you can critisize Astrology then you must be able to prove that you know what you are talking about. And you have already critisized Astrology so you must know what it is, mustn't you?

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If what you say is true, then we have only criticised this "pseudoastrology". Until you tell us what you're actually thinking about, we don't know if we've criticised it or not.

Sorry Hekate, if you believe in it, you make your case for it. We don't have to prove anything .. we don't believe in it, remember?

Sumerians were peaceful, simple minded agriculturalists. They lived in the south parts of the Mesopotamian area, while Karduchoi, a more warlike tribe who are the ancestors of contemporary Kurds lived in the north. There is no advanced mathematics and geometry in them, although Assyrians do present some level of civilisation.

On the other hand there is presence of high civilisation on both Aegypt and Hellas, before the "-4000". Plutarch writes that the Delphi Temple peaked 3000 before his time. Peaked, not founded. There is evidence of sea travel in mainland Hellas since "-6000". And sea travel required a knowledge of constellations for navigation. There is evidence of developed trade between the Minoan Cretes and Aegyptians which is usually squezed after the "-4000". You see, according to christians that's when the(ir) world was created, so there can be no developed civilisation before that... Aegyptian historian Manetho on the other hand speaks of recorded history since the "-45000" in Aegypt. And Homer in his Odyssey describes a trip of Menelaus from the shores of Aegypt to the island of Pharos which lasts one day by ship. But the island of Pharos is almost right to the shore now, or more specifically right next to the Delta of the Nile. Which is a recent geological formation, only 12500 old...

I'm writing these to give some indications that the development of civilisation is way back older than just "-4000" years old, as the good christians claim.

And finally:
We're not talking about "my" definition of Astrology. I wrote
All things begin with their definitions. And the definitions begins with their names.

Tell me what the name "Astrology" means. Simply.

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Then do not critisize it also. Declare ignorance and lack of interest, but refrain from any critisism.

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Well, here's the Merriam-Webster definition:

I might a little about human personality and character, but their definition covers the gist for me.

If you want criticism, I would start with the following:

- There is no evidence that astrology works (in terms of predicting or determining human character, affairs, or events).

- There is no evidence for a mechanism by which it could work, i.e., how does a planet billions of miles away affect me in any noticeable way?

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

To us astrology is the practise of describing the past, present and future of people on Earth from the total unrelated configuration of the celestial sphere.

If we don't have a clue what astrology is, yet you ask us to define astrology, I can easily see this deterioriating into a thread in which you just get to tell everyone they're wrong with no justification. You won't get a lot of participation for that.

Since all of these people refer to themselves as astrologers, who are we to say they aren't astrologers?

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

Well, as I said earlier I do not know what divination is. But my guess is that divination does not require a mathematical/geometrical model of the zodiac nor an integrated philosophical/theological corpus, to be practised. Astrology does though. Why?


1. There is evidence. If you are a little patient I will present its rationale in the next days.
2. There is evidence about a mechanism. It is called the Logos concept (I will explain later on what this is). For now, a question:
Have you ever ever considered that the stars and planets of outer space, are not accidental balls of fire/earth that are just randomly lying there, casually and coincidentally? Has anyone ever considered the possibility that they might be living organisms? Lifeforms of a different scale? Of a different world? With a life span immensly greater than ours, so we cannot claim that we have observed them for any worthwhile amount of time, considering their cycle of existence?

Just a question.

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Exactly. Why bother dealing with these guessing-games?

Hekate, you want to debate your definition of astrology:
a) define astrology so that we can debate it
b) try to provide a mechanism as to how it works
c) if possible, provide examples of controlled blind-studies showing it works
d) better yet, collect $1 million from James Randi

Until then, I'm off to read the Relativity debates . . .

Now, I have to leave until tommorrow.

And I hope there is someone who can tell me what the name "Astrology"means.

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Okay, now that you have demonstrated that our idea of astrology is wrong, let's first accept that what we previously thought was astrology is indeed bartsibrel and second, let's now examine real astrology.

Hang on, hang on. I took a stab at it. ToSeek gave a dictionary quote. That part is done. Now it's time to move on to what you think the definition is.

[quote="Hekate"]Well, as I said earlier I do not know what divination is. But my guess is that divination does not require a mathematical/geometrical model of the zodiac nor an integrated philosophical/theological corpus, to be practised. Astrology does though. Why?[/quote[

"Divination" is mostly a fancy word for "prediction," though with a connotation of using the occult or supernatural to do so. Certainly astronomers do quite a lot of prediction based on hard mathematics and (indirectly) philosophy.

I can't say that I've considered it in any serious way. Do you have any evidence for this view? (And, yes, I'm willing to be patient.)

Etymologically, it means laws or word or study of the stars. ("Logos" in ancient Greek was a pretty heavy term.)

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Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.

Dictating what I can and can not do on this board is not your province. I say astrology is bunk and you playing games with definitions doesn't change anything. If I'm wrong, prove it. Attempting to shift the burden of proof is quite common with you peddlers of pseudo-science .. it won't work here.

I used to go through this nonsense all the time on the religion board I frequented. Inevitably, a Christian fundie would talk about Christians being loving. Then, a free thinker or atheist would ask about the crusades or Hitler. The response was always, "Oh, they're not real Christians." :roll:

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"The oxen are slow, but the earth is patient."

Don't forget the Spanish Inquisition or bloody Mary. Highly unpleasant.

Either way, it's the No True Scotsman Fallacy. Someone holds a proposition X. Someone else points out that a fact A contradicts X. So the proponent says that X doesn't cover A. Or something like that. Jay would put it far more eloquently.

Now see when I wrote that I had a pretty good idea where this was headed and actually edited it before posting. The bold below I had momentarily, but then decided that might be a bit too inflamatoryat that point in the thread:

However after this:

it is clear that in fact that was the first intent. Now I have a question for Hekate. Does it not seem that there is a standard definition of astrology that most people are familiar with and kindly provided by ToSeek? I'm unfamiliar with any arguments in support of the "horoscope" astrology that would give reason to think it is anything other than nonsense.

However, you seem to be implying that you have a different definition of astrology - one that perhaps we are not familiar with. So again I ask - wouldn't it make more sense for you to share that definition with us? We could go on for many moons inventing definitions of astrology in a vain effort to hit upon the definition that you subscribe to. Yes we are ignorant of whatever definition you hold to be the definition of astrology. And we will remains so until you share that definition. Withholding your definition in some game of "see how ignorant you all are" would seem to be counter-productive to your goal of educating us.

True, but I'm headed to a friends house for a few games of pool, darts, and a good beverage! I think I'll need to frequent the latter to endure this thread.

I don't belive in astrology, 'nuff said. I think there is a reason why astrology stuff is sold next to Weekly World News.

It seems that you’re rejecting the Merriam-Webster definition of astrology. But since you don’t know what divination is, you don’t really know if it’s wrong… right?

Divination is that school of magic in D&D that only the very serious roleplayers specialize in.

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