Hello guys,
As you can see by my status..this is my first post, and since I am a subwhat noobie to the topic, I wanted to start establishing real theories from the people in here. I wanted to know how everyone feels about the Area 51 situation/conspiracy (for me, i feel it is a HUGE conspiracy). Besides the fact that the US government completely denies the entire existance of this establishment, there have been tons of reports of "late night testing", plus there has been tons of evidence pointing to the theory that "the Apollo Moon Landing" is a fake. I am very interested in how you guys feel about the subject. Feel free to talk about your ideas on previous conspiricies taking place at this establishment. Thanks for looking, hope I hear some good theories

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

Well, apparently this is your lucky day! someone over on "lunar conspiracies" was just looking for a Hoax Believer! I'm sure you'll get some action over there.

Now, as far as Area 51...it's a real base where the military researches and tests new military aircraft. The fact that this is kept secret speaks more for national security than for some big conspiracy! However, I have no proof of my position on this...just seems to be common sense that research and development would be something we'd want to keep under wraps. Maybe others know more about this.

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An open mind is like an open window...without a good screen you'll get all sorts of weird bugs!

Sometimes really cool new aircraft just look funny to some people.

First of all Havoc, Welcome!

Most of the world's large governments have an area away from the general populace for testing new technologies: "Area 51" is the U.S.' test area. Alot of things are attributed to this area, and alot of people make things up or attribute weird things to it. Only about 10% of what is attributed is true (yes we tested the F117 and B2 there).

As far as the Apollo hoax goes, Look at www.clavius.org for all the real info about that.




edit: fix URL for Jay's website

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Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage

yes, that is very true (the part about it being for national security reasons ). I understand that alot of this would be for national security reasons, and im glad that the US would make steps towards protecting its people. But I still feel that lying about the entire existance of it, and using it to blatently lie to americans. Why did we have to go the the moon all of the sudden? Besides the space race, kind of like an arms race, America had no reason to just set up a scene in area 51, and film a fake landing on the moon. Americans should atleast know half of what their country is doing. Its like having haveing a spokesman/agent that makes TONS of decisions for you behind your back, not telling you. But if something screws up, the person would be completly blind sided by the situation. Im not 100% sure yet that the "fake Apollo Landing" theory is true yet, due to some parts are kind of hazy to me. It is said that the launch really happened, but the shuttle orbited earth for 8 days against the grain of the path that the satelittes traveled ( so they wouldnt be spotted ) while the people of the world were fed video of shots supposedly filmed at Area 51 (due to the fact that tons of the craters/marks/land features almost identically copy those of the "moon film"). This is entirely possible, but it seems kind of hazy to me. Oh well, i guess i will head over to the Lunar conspiracies section and give my 2 cents

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

Thanks for the welcome

I have always felt a little iffy about the lines of BS the government feeds us sometimes. Its kind of scary how much control the goverment has over us, and how if we dont do something that portrays the overall image of the country, the government can strike you down, or just condemn your actions, and act like they had nothing to do with you. Im not for that anarchy topic or anything, because i actually think the idea is kind of stupid....oh well, i guess i will just keep talking to people about this, and i could just establish my own theories :P lol...

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

Welcome to the board Havoc!

I tend to discount most of what I here about “Area 51.” Everyone who cares to know, knows that the government has facilities where non-public research is done, but so what? And we can know where they are by looking at property records, if we care to. This is not a secret.

Bringing up the lunar conspiracy is unlikely to win many friends on this board. That idea has been thoroughly discredited and many of us tend to hold that those who make such a claim are not very reliable sources of information.

If you have specific claims on either subject that you would like solid information on, this is the right place to be, there are many experts here who give their time to educate those with questions. Please do participate because we all learn from others questions. However, people here will challenge unfounded assertions so argumentative types tend to fair badly under the weight of knowledge and logic.

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Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

Just remember theories require objective evidence to have any validity. “Talking to people” is unlikely to generate objectivity.

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Living on Earth may be expensive, but it includes an annual free trip around the Sun.

lol, thank you for the fair warning my friend . Im not hear to dispute over facts that i have done no research on myself, Im just kind of scared knowing that the very same people that have been accused of commiting SO MANY CONSPIRACIES is controling our lives. By controling our minds, i dont mean some wierd stuff, because im not like *says in odd, mono-toned voice* "ah..they are out to get you, they want you, they stalk you, they're after you...every day, controlling us like sock puppets...". Im glad that our goverment protects us from international attacks, but its just kind of scary having something that has been proven guilty of lying to their people running their lives. Its like the citizens are little mice running around in a cage, while people observe their actions, because the governement knows so much more than the people do. I just kind of stumbled upon a site that that disputes weather or not the "Apollo Landing Conspiracy" was true or not, and i found it very interesting. I think it is way more fun to go through life wondering...not just taking exactly has been given too you. Thats why i question this situation, not necissarily because i strongly belive it is fake, but to raise some eye-brows, and make people wonder, "well..hm....that is true". Thanks for the welcomes, and thanks for the posts...i love learning about the vast world we live in, since it is such a wide plain of information to learn

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

thats very true, and i will keep that in mind...I suck at theories, and i was kinda just kidding because i have no real past knowledge of issues that were disputed over, due to the fact that i just signed up today . Thanks for the help guys..

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

Havoc,
I strongly recommend you go to JayUtah's website www.clavius.org to dispel the myths surrounding the lunar hoax!

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Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage

Thanks for the link man, so i dont get flamed on future posts, i better read up eh?

Thanks again
-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

wow...that stuff really is fake..lol, i find one site with about 15 facts saying it is fake, and a page with like 20 diffrent sections disputing the conspiracy with triganometry . *moves for print button* atleast i will have more to read tonight

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

Havoc,
I hope you didn't take my post as a flame?!? I just wanted to give you the best place to start so you wouldn't give us the same questions we've seen time and again. Although JayUtah and others here enjoy providing info to help people get the truth, some here can get upset, especially if it's a question that's been posted a dozen times.

Good luck and enjoy your stay!

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Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage

I think one of the reasons some fringe elements like to promote stories about Area 51 is the lack of deniability factor. This government basically has said nothing about what goes on there for obvious national security reasons. IIRC, up until the early '90's they didn't even acknowledge this base's existence. The woowoos like Bob Lazar and others that describe things like UFO reverse-engineering know this all too well. I could claim Santa takes off from there on Christmas Eve without worrying about being proven wrong.

Havoc, welcome to the board. The only thing I can say is to take the Area 51 conspiracy stories with a grain of salt. Uncle Sam is not about to take you on a tour of those facilities any time soon so it's up to you to look at this objectively. It makes perfect sense to me that our government would have a place like this to work on their latest military technology and also makes sense that they would want to keep this R & D under wraps.

Dont worry man, i didnt take it as a flame . Thanks for all of the info guys, really helps. I just wanted to get involved, and i wanna learn more about the world we live in

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

For starters, Havoc, there was NO Space Shuttle at the time of the Apollo program. If anyone tells you there was, but it was "secret," please give it a moments thought. I'm sure you have seen live or taped shots of Shuttle Launches. Massive infrastructure, stupendous noise, and a tower of smoke going up miles in the sky. There is no way any secret launches could be made -- even from Area 51, which is close enough to population centers for a launch to be seen and heard.

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Standing on the shoulders of giants...

The Skunk Works, a very real place where most of the US' best military air power was developed, isn't that far from Area 51, but it gets relatively no attention because of the woo-woo magnet that is Groom Lake.

I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that, aside from being a landing and takeoff ground for the Blackbird and things like the F117, it's not really used for anything special.

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No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?

Pretends to be The Bad Astronomer for a moment.

"You know there is a web site attatched to this bulletin board!"

http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/tv/foxapollo.html

Stops pretending to be the great and powerfull BA.

Welcome Havoc.

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Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future.

--Niels Bohr, Danish Physicist.

Isn't Area 51 where they're hiding Element 115? :P

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Planning a vacation to Thailand? http://www.ezwaythailand.com

"Imagination will often carry us to worlds that never were. But without it we go nowhere." - Carl Sagan

You mean unobtainium? :wink:

That's where they have a atom with an atomic mass of 312 that's called Administranium!

http://www.valasek.org/humor/administranium.htm

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Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage

Clarification: The Lockeehed Skunk Works is in Burbank, California. Groom Lake AFB was indeed built on Area 51 to test Skunk Works planes - the U-2 to be specific. Read all about it in the book "Skunk Works" by one of the more recent directors, Ben Rich. Great book.

Thanks for that, I think I might just get that book.

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No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?

Wow, i love all of the feedback guys, thanks alot. Basically, the reason i posted this was because i have an older friend, who had in his info a link to his personal website. I was scrolling down and for some reason it had area 51 information, and the theory of how much stuff goes on there. So are some of you saying we have like some devistating weapons in testing at area 51/other testing facilities? if so...wow, kinda cool. I wanna read up on some of these secret plans for weapons. Thanks again for all of the feedback. One thing i have noticed is that lots of people say that when the supspected "ufo crash" at roswell or whatever happened, that lots of the leftover material was taken to area 51. What do you guys think? Do you guys feel that there is secret material that could change the future of everyone in the world if someone found out what was really in that testing facility? I wanna know what you guys think. Thanks

-Havoc

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

The problem is Havoc that you cannot prove a negative in cases like this. If you are in the government and say "it never happened" people scream that you are covering something up. If you say "there was a crash of something that is classified, people scream the same thing.

Immagination runs wild and people look for stuff that is outside humanity while ignoring how fantastic the developments we've made really are.

-The Wright brothers - Think about how tough it is to create a flying machine. Really. It's NOT something you can do without a LOT of study, experimentation and effort.

-The thing you are sitting at right now while reading this. Less than 100 years ago the idea of communicating with someone on the other side of the world was a FATASTIC breakthrough... as long as the telegraph office was open, there was someone there to recieve the emssage and write it down and then get a horse and rider to FIND the person it was meant for! Now you can chat with just about anyone, get information that had to go through the news services and print and be a week old by the time you were luck y enough to get it...

-Research is being done on man made products to replace blood in critical conditions.

-There are cures and treatments for diseases that just 50 years ago were a death sentence.

All in all, people need to stop looking at humanity as backwards. So far we are the most advanced people we know of! If there are aliens out there and they know about us, then they are so unsure of themselves that they don't know how to contact us! And PLEASE don't give me any "they have contacted us" - random "abductions" of people who are nto relaible is just not gonna cut it. If the supposed aliens were there and wanted to contact us a simple wide band broadcast overriding our every day telecommunications "Hi, we're here and you're not alone." would cause a LOT less chaos than all this imagined secret squirrel crap.

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What would Scoobie do?

And here is where the other stuff is.

That is a very good point, thanks for bringing that up. I dont feel like we have been "touched" or really contacted by any other form of life in this universe. Maybe there are other forms of life out there, but i guess we probably wont know in this life time. I think those phoney ufo sighting videos are pretty stupid. They are kind of like tabloids, everyone knows they are fake, but sometimes, stupid people really do belive them. Even though the governement highers top notch professionals to dispute over the authenticity of the these clips, there are still people that see one, and will take it to their grave that the clip was real. Once you look back...and think about all of the advances our society has made...its kind of hard to just settle with what we have been given. I feel that if aliens were real, and they had such technologicly advanced materials as to build something like a UFO, they wouldnt travel through universes, and spend enormous amounts of time just to get to earth and give them selves away in broad daylight. I guess people should stop automatically accusing their governments of hiding something. Some people do it to see if someone will crack, or make that person feel like they have been figured out. Oh well...keep giving feedback guys,

-Havoc[/url]

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"I could neither confirm or refute the contained presence of alien materials or artefacts."

-John K McCormack

One of the other intesting discussions I've had is:

If we assume that the laws of phsyics as we know them is correct, the amount of energy and technological development needed to create a craft that can travel from star system to star system AND carry a crew that doesn't die in the process would allow a civilization to produce enough energy and "terraform" planets for habitation.

Why travel and mess with primatives or planets where they are capable of shooting craft down?

And if you can travel from star system to star system, would you build a craft so carelessly that any primate with a shoulder mounted SAM could shoot it down? Would you make it so fragile and prone to crew error that it would crash?

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What would Scoobie do?

And here is where the other stuff is.

We know that our understanding of physics isn't completely correct. If it was then we wouldn't have all these theories about space-time, black holes, and other anomolies we don't quite understand. We also can't assume that aliens with advanced space crafts aren't going to be prone to error. Just look at all the problems they have in star trek (that was a joke ).

We do however know that our understanding of physics is pretty darn close to correct. Some of the more basic theories (SR & GR) are unlikely to change enough to make interstellar travel possible.