Charlie never wanted to find X

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senmut

How do you know what Charlie's intentions are? If you think you know where it is, please post coordinates so Charlie and others can find it. Your kidding yourself if you think that if there was a chance PX was real that amateur and professional astronomers wouldn't be clamoring to find it.

PX is a fantasy. If you have evidence to the contrary, please post it. Coordinates would be a good start.

I'm feeling compelled to add to this thread, but everything has already been covered...

I never cease to be amazed how much effort gets put into deriving a theory from a lovely rug purchased a few years ago "plus or minus a year". As we know, they are such accurate devices of record.....

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There we were in the park when suddenly some old lady says I stole her purse..... I chucked the professor at her but she kept coming..... So I had to hit her with this purse I found.
-- Bender

Dear Charlie,

I want to find X, because I had found many tracs, direct or indirect remarks about X in Bible, in Texts from pyramids, on Senmut map, on Dendera zodiac, on Narmer and on other oldest Egyptian palettes, on Chinese funeral paintings, in Mayas, Greek, Sumerian writings....

I believe to these sources more than to the most technicaly developed present astronomy.
Those ancient people had very probably seen object, which on its high elliptic path was in those times in perihelia. It was possible to see it, because in that time X was less or only 100 hundred or 1 billion km away from Earth. If we don't see X, though we have very advanced telescopes, so it is because X is even now more billions km from us.
If you ignore X, it doesn't mean that X not exists.
It is similar to person who is siting on rails and he think, that when he doesn's see train now, so he couldn't be knocked in future...
Charlie, do you think that God, Jesus, apostle John, Moses, apocalyptic propheciers from Old Testamentsare were fictious persons and rattled trash about flood, about course of the last judgement? There are descriptions of effects of X- my calculations based on data from those texts very support it...

Why Quaoar was discovered only in 2002, though it is big planetoid, circa 1250km in diameter? Q is quite bright and orbits even in plane of ecliptic 6.5 billions km from us.

Charles and other high ranked astronomers, show me your proofs, that X can't orbits in our solar system. I tried to show on my webs (there are formulas calculations...) and also here in this forum, that X can be part of our solar system...

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senmut

Quaoar (strange name) seems fairly large for a Kuiper belt object, but its orbital parameters seem typical - even more typical than Pluto's. There are other large planetoids circling in that area - so what? Oh, and at a visual magnitude of 18.5, I wouldn't call it "bright".

http://www.gps.caltech.edu/~chad/quaoar/

As for PX, the 'evidence' for it is similar to that for Santa Claus. And, come to think of it, it faces a similar situation; if it existed once, it's not likely to do so any more.

http://www.comedycorner.org/5.html

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"We do not require reality to conform to the expectations of the ignorant"

Resenmut - Unfortunately for you, the scientific method doesn't work this way. The proposer is solely responsible for finding proofs and providing data including current or last known position of a new object. As was requested previously, provide us a position.

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Hanlon's Razor - "Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."
Asimov's addition - "Or ignorance."

"On two occasions, I have been asked [by members of Parliament], 'Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answers come out?' I am not able to rightly apprehend the kind of confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question."
-- Charles Babbage

I don't understand why anyone would ignore current astronomical thought and observation in favor of vague passages in ancient texts or un-named images featured in old tapestries and the like.

Isn't that a bit like trying to reconstruct the recent history of a region by taking as your source the scribblings on the stalls in a public men's room?

I'll bet you could do just that -- build up a history. Oh, it might bear little if any resemblance to any ACTUAL history, but you could argue it all the same.

That's what I see happening here. We've got high-powered optics on the ground, and in space. We're able to compute orbits and the positions of planetary bodies with enough accuracy to land probes on them, from millions and millions of miles away; that tells me our math is spot-on. And we've learned more in the last hundred years about the universe around us than all of our forebears did in all of centuries before us.

So why abandon science in favor of mere folklore, which is itself open to broad and much disputed interpretation?

And as far as us amateur astronomers not 'wanting' to find this Planet X -- I'd *love* to show up here and tell everyone I'd spotted, in my scope, something that no one else had seen.

But I'd provide coordinates. And repeated observations. And I'd be begging people to confirm (or deny) what I'd seen.

We'd all accept, at least initially, a report that so-and-so observed a body at such and such place. Then we'd check our charts, our scopes, and each other. That's how science works.

Few, if any, rugs would be consulted. Ditto for tapestries or ancient texts.

My vote is that ancient texts and rugs make for easier reading because it has none of that annoying math and physics. That stuff just gets in the way of a good yarn.
=D>
I liken it to someone saying "fairies used to exist and had huge cities all over the world" because they found some Lego blocks in a sandbox.

Math is hard. It is so much easier to create conjectures about the universe then it is to actually sit down and learn astrophysics for years before coming up with realistic hypotheses. You see this all the time in the Lunar Conspiracies forum, an HBer will go on about thrust rates, heat transfer or radiation levels but when pressed to actually provide detailed calculations on these items they won't do it. Why? They do not spend the time actually researching and learning the math and physics that underlie the items. If they did, they would discover that their conjectures have no merit.

From the looks of this thread the underlying math required is orbital mechanics. Resenmut doesn't seem willing to demonstrate that he knows how that works, preferring instead to surf PX pages and discuss 'ancient evidence' and expecting people here to accept that. Not surprisingly no one is agreeing with his beliefs and conclusions.

That's absurd! It wasn't faries, it was little green men!

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I must not PX. PX is the mind-killer. I will face my PX. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the PX has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

Ancient texts are fine and dandy, but who is to say that our interpretation of them is correct? Case in point, Zechariah Sitchin and Mike Heibel have both studied the same ancient cylinder seals, and tablets. Both are very learned in translating these texts. Both come to very different conclusions about what the ancients were trying to say in those texts. Who is right? Who is wrong? Who knows! I do know this, Planet X, as described by Nancy Lieder, Mark Hazelwood, James Mccanney, and a host of others is not here "bobbling" around the sun, and probably wont be any time in the near future.

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Those who repeat History are doomed to learn it.

Do you know what argumentum ad ignorantiam means? Tried is the operative word. Very poorly is my critique of your "formulas/calculations." Do you have a telescope? If so, try using that once in a while instead of sniffing around carpets.

From what I've seen of resenmuts arguments and formulas, I think PX is no more likely than without those arguments because the arguments are meaningless. It's not just a matter of not having proof that px doesn't exist, there is zero proof that it does exist.
Wanting something to exist doesn't make it so. Saying there is a planet at point A and a planet at point B so there must be a planet at point C, doesn't make it so. Quoting someone who says that planet x exist doesn't make it so. Sighting an ancient text or drawing that might imply px exists, doesn't make it so. Thinking that it's makes since and seems natural for planet x to exist doesn't make it so.
Planet x cant be declared to exist until it can be seen or the results of it can be seen. That's what anyone using basic critical thinking would require.
That's not to say that it's imposable for it to exist, so long as it were dark enough and far away enough to not be seen by astronomers yet. But like I've said before, if you're gong to have faith in something unseen there are better things than px to put your faith into.

PS: Lense flares, web cam dropouts and the like aren't proof of anything either.

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I must not PX. PX is the mind-killer. I will face my PX. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the PX has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

No such statement has ever been made. This claim has made it's way around the internet for the last year in conspiracy groups, after being published by the BBC. The statement was in fact made by a student with no political or governmental association, and was actually misquoted out of context by the media to begin with.


****The whole, complete and accurate story is here.****

Hi all,
Even though I have been absent from any postings for a while...I have come to the conclusion that we all as individiduals should conclude in our own beliefs ,what is true and what is not.
It is a good thing that we can come to a site to express our veiws,albeit against the normal veiw of the masses...However all that I can relay at this time is "the proof is in the pudding"......So that being said ,whatever will happen will occur in spite of all that we may say.....I feel that the help and support gained from this site has helped greatly,but let me say that many opinions will differ as we are all individuals.
Most of our readership will bond with the way of known science...although it is refreshing to entertain the ideas of the advant garde thinking of those who can muster the courage to think in a differant vein.
I feel that is what makes, all of us to come to a greater understanding of the universe that we are privilaged to co-habitat

peace to all

josun

What are you saying josun? It's cool to foster/promote a belief that we have one (or more) Planet Xs heading our way? Or just cool to acknowledge that others may entertain that thought? You sound like you just smoked something :-?

What are you saying josun? It's cool to foster/promote a belief that we have one (or more) Planet Xs heading our way? Or just cool to acknowledge that others may entertain that thought? You sound like you just smoked something


Hi Archer,,,,,I guess a little too much good Italian wine, It seemed to put me in that "we all should get along mode"......Anyway, disregard my rantings and keep up the good work with the rest who post here....

"Sure was good wine though"

Josun

No worries mate. 8) Next time you have some good Italian wine, how about sharing?

Sour grapes, Pavel. Can you imagine the honors that would have come my way if I actually did discover a new 'planet' (it's also been described as a rogue brown dwarf star, but we'll do with the 'planet' designation for now)? My family name would go down in history for all time. Astronomers and stargazers dream about making new discoveries, the advancements of science that this will bring, and deep down in their heart of hearts do enjoy the ego boost from being named as the discoverer of a heavenly body. This bit about my not wanting to find it is nonsense.

By the way...have you found it? If so, RA and Dec, please.

That's fine, but all the book research in the world is no substitute for getting out under the night sky and looking for the darn thing. And that's going to be the final proof. All those ancient texts about this and that and the other don't mean squat if there's nothing there. And that's all that's there -- nothing.

How? In what way were the ancients who were limited to naked-eye viewing and extremely slow communications superior to today's technology in astronomy? The sciences of physics and orbital mechanics were long in the future. Show me the predictions of Planet X every however-long-its-period-is going back through time. Show me where its appearance was accurately predicted through history. What you've got are undated sightings of something unnamed.

"Those ancient people" probably did see something, but there is no proof that what they saw is/was Planet X. Your smaller figure of 100 hundred km comes to 10000km/6213 miles, so I'll chalk that up to a glitch of language and discard that figure (you do realize that if something as large as you claim X to be had come within 10000km of Earth, all life as we know it would not exist?). Your figure of 1 billion km comes to about 1/3 of the way from Saturn to Uranus...which is feasible...an object 1/40th the mass of the sun (which comes to 4.9723x10^29 kg) would probably be visible, but would also disrupt the orbits of the inner and outer planets to the point of ejecting them from the Solar System!!! I don't remember that being in my history book anywhere...

Ah, but we're not ignoring X. We (speaking for myself, other members of my local astronomy club, and those on this board like SarahMc an others who have been searching for it for a number of years now) have been scouring the skies with every optical aid at our fingertips. We've been searching diligently since this all started, and yet there's been no evidence of PX -- no confirmed sightings, no deep-space radar imagery, no gravitational disturbances of any planet...no evidence in the skies at all. We are ignoring nothng, Pavel -- we are the most industrious of searchers. If you have evidence of PX's location, by all means let us have it -- we'd love to center it in our scopes. Believe me when I say that Our Gracious Host would run out of bandwidth and server space with all the pictures he'd be willing to have posted here. Just tell us where it is, Pavel.

Bad analogy, Pavel. The person who is sitting on the rails and is looking intently in both directions is fully justified in thinking that he won't be knocked in the immediate future. He's unjustified in thinking about anything further away than he can see or hear, but as long as he keeps his attention on regular occasion to the limits of sight/hearing, he can sit there as long as it's safe. To the limits of our detection (be it visual, electronic, electromagnetic, or what have you), there is absolutely no evidence that Planet X as it has been described exists. We've been watching, nay searching for the train, Pavel, but it just hasn't come around the bend yet...

This is an appeal to theology, and in addition does not address the point of the existence of Planet X. On those bases, this argument is inapplicable to the point of the discussion.

And therein lies the crumbling foundation of the entire argument in support of Planet X. All the information in these ancient texts are assumed to be referring to the same thing, that being Planet X. That assumption has yet to be proven by anyone anywhere. Without this crucial point (which the entire argument is balanced on), the whole thing tumbles down.

Well now, let's take that apart, shall we? It's about 40% the diameter of Earth's moon, it's about 6,000,000,000,000km away, as far as 'bright' goes it's just another not-attention-attracting pinpoint in the sky, and is inclined to the ecliptic by about 8 degrees. There's nothing there that would attract the naked eye. As a matter of fact, unless visiblity and seeing are absolutely perfect, it's highly debatable whether Quaoar can be seen by the naked eye even then. But all the hoohah about PX claims it's visible to the naked eye and cheap webcams daily. If that's so, why doesn't it show up in my 50mm binoculars? Why doesn't it show up in my 105mm and 130mm telescopes? Why doesn't it show up in the museum's 500mm telescope? If it's moving that fast and is that bright and is that noticeable, why can't anyone using the scientific method, proper scientific technique, and proper scientific instruments see the darned thing?

You have it backwards. You are the one claiming that Planet X is there. It is up to you to prove its existence. We do not have to prove the negative. You have to prove the positive. You have not done so up to this point in time.

You tried, and you failed. And your last statement shows that you're hedging your bets. Now all of a sudden it "...can be...". What happened to the exhortations of "IT IS!!!" that this started out with?

Pavel, I believe you have fallen into the same trap that the majority of the PX'ers have. People are so tightly bound to their theories and alien communiques and ancient texts and rugs and flags and windows and what have you that they haven't done the one thing necessary to prove that Planet X is out there -- they haven't gone outside and looked!!! All the scribblings and embroidery and artwork and pottery down here aren't going to add up to anything if you don't go outside and look up there! And when you do, you'll find out that Planet X just isn't there. No occulting suns, no varicolored personas, no bobbling, no gravitational disturbances, no nothing. It isn't there. Nothing matching any description given by anyone about Planet X has been found.

You have concrete evidence to the contrary? That evidence points to a place in the sky. Point me to that same place.

SHOW ME PLANET X!!!

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"If a tree is cut down in the rainforest, and is used to make paper to print a book, and the book is really bad, and there's nobody that will read it, do you still hear a sucking sound?"
Charlie in Dayton, A.AsC.

\/ \/ Go Charlie \/ \/

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Those who repeat History are doomed to learn it.

Excellent post Charlie =D>