The resonant system is the earth in its orbit around the sun. The four key points are the solstices and equinoxes. These four points produce the twelve tropical signs. The driving force is fluid dynamics as explained at the experiment I proposed to illustrate the formation of the signs from the cardinal points, which also illustrates a fluid dynamic model of precession. Canopus is singled out as a marker of precession, not a dynamic driver of it. The claimed result is that terrestrial time is structured by the Ages of the Zodiac, enabling long term interpretation of historical trends.

Bold mine.

This is a direct contradiction of what you claimed in the first sentence of your first post:

And now you've opened a thread in the Q & A section asking about the proper motion of both Vega and Canopus. While I applaud your desire to learn real science, I have to wonder just what it is that you are driving at.

It still seems that you are trying to claim that astrology works.

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In my second post I accepted that there is no physical relation between Canopus and the sun, based on replies to the first post. For this reason I have focussed on how Canopus is a marker for the precession, accepting that Canopus is not dynamically linked to the sun.What I am driving at is a scientific argument that the earth follows cycles caused by precession. This is a dynamic hypothesis. If a gyroscope had spin of one rotation per year and reverse wobble one rotation per 25765 years, and remained in stable unperturbed existence for over a hundred thousand wobbles, it would seem reasonable to examine how complex systems evolving on that gyroscope might also exhibit that underlying wobble. The model I described treats the earth as just such a gyroscope, postulating the internal structure for one cycle of the precessional wobble. The sign information matches this cyclic model against the annual period by reference to the turning points of equinoxes and solstices. The experiment I described is pure mathematics, modelling the terrestrial system by fluid wave dynamics.

On the diagram http://www.redicecreations.com/news/...precession.gif you can see Vega at left of the North Celestial Pole precessional circle. Canopus could be added at the right hand side of the South Celestial Pole precessional circle to illustrate the Canopus-Vega stellar axis.

Then you are pursuing the proper motions of Vega and Canopus for your own edification. This is good.

Then you assert that what you are driving at is aso I have to ask; the earth follows cycles of what and what are the effects of these cycles?

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This "axis" doesn't physically have anything to do with anything else, though, and you've admitted this. So it has no bearing on the rest of your proposal.

As for the rest of your proposal, you're saying that there is some mystical cycle that accompanies precession which doesn't have a physical (as in scientific) cause. Your "universal" concepts cycle could be replaced with a thrice-yearly cycle of Air, Water, Fire, and Earth and still mean as little as it does. This isn't physics or astronomy, it's astrology, and there is no scientific justification for it.

The twelve universal concept cycle of the year is the product of two annual wave forms which produce the zodiac. The four elements - fire, earth, air, water - and the three qualities - cardinal, fixed and mutable - are produced by the annual rhythm of the solstices and equinoxes, and form twelve unique combinations matching the twelve signs of the tropical zodiac. The emergent cycle of the year has a scientific cause.

This diagram illustrates the science of precession, with the addition of the designation of stellar axes as golden and iron and approximate year dates for each Age. I have also added the big southern stars which mark the Pole, Canopus, Achernar and Beta Carinae, and the Large Magellanic Cloud which is located at the base of earth's spin cone. The diagram shows how the Vedic imagery matches the zodiacal ages as a model of the temporal structure of the earth.

http://www.bautforum.com/attachment....1&d=1246772551

Attached Thumbnails

 

Yes, this is all we need now, Robert. Add EVEN MORE extraneous stuff to muddy the waters.

Why don't you just admit that you're trying to justify astrology, then you can get on with presenting evidence as to why you think astrology is science?

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I'm glad we've cleared that up.

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The material was not extraneous but was a direct response to the claim by Tobin Dax that the concept cycle in my diagram did not have a scientific cause. Some time ago at Precessional Cosmology I posted a diagram of the wave structure of the year illustrating the mathematics of the signs. This science of the tropical signs is fundamental to an assessment of the possible cyclic structure of the Great Year.

In this thread I am not attempting to justify astrology per se, as very much astrology is not scientific. However, the argument that the Canopus-Vega axis represents a Golden Age for the earth is basically an astrological claim that coheres well with the mathematical framework I have described. I'm not trying to muddy the water, I'm just trying to provide supporting evidence. As well, I am drawing attention to little-known facts which illustrate how deeply the Great Year is embedded as a theme in human culture.

You have GOT to be kidding me!

Robert Tulip wrote:
What is "The twelve universal concept cycle of the year"?
What is the "Great Year"?
Two annual waveforms of WHAT?
What do you think a wave is? (I only ask so that maybe, just maybe, we can actually discuss some real science in this thread.)

Robert Tulip wrote:
Now you're using alchemy to prove astrology. Or is it the other way around?

You added your diagram (again) with even more astronomical bodies added to the ones that you already admitted had no real relation to what you were talking about, and you have the audacity to claim that this is not extraneous!!!

But wait!!! You then turn right around and say:
So now we're back to the Canopus-Vega axis again. And how does it cohere with the mathematical framework you describe?
Another question, what is the mathematical framework and where do you describe it? Is it that wave bouncing "experiment" that you linked to awhile back? You know, the experiment you haven't performed.

Please, quit your hand waving, vacillating, and flip-flopping and define just what you are trying to prove and present some credible, verifiable evidence for it.

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The great year Robert is referring to is the time it takes for one complete precession of the equinox. I think it is a fairly well known concept. About the "annual waveforms," however, I haven't a clue either.

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Thanks, Jens.

I did a Google search on "The Great Year" and found that it is indeed a well know concept, to astrologers!

Who'd a thunk?

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Thank you AstroRockHunter for these great questions. The reason I post on BAUT is to keep me honest and seek scientific challenge for my ideas. The diagram was posted again by Gandalf, not by me. As Jens pointed out and you found yourself, the Great Year is a simple scientific term for a main cycle of the earth. You point out that it is well known to astrologers, but that is really ad hominem, as the source of interest in a topic does not determine its validity. The earth is a wobbling top, and the Great Year is the period of the wobble. The fact that alchemists might have found this of interest has no bearing on its scientific merits.

The annual wave function of the earth can be seen in the sine wave produced by plotting the length of the day. The solstices are the turning points of this sine wave and the equinoxes are its inflection points. Now, where I claim a new scientific use of this observation is in the hypothesis that this basic wave function, which is observable in how life and light ascend and descend on a yearly basis, can also have what I call harmonic reverberation or harmonic resonance.

The claim is that the temporal harmonic of the earth can be understood by analogy with musical harmonics. This is a postulate which supports the mathematics I have presented. In music, a vibrating string contains the vibrations caused by whole fractional division of the string. Dividing in half produces the octave, in third the fifth, in quarter the second octave, in fifth the major third, and so on. Each of these divisions sounds within the fundament, producing the full resonance of natural sound. Combining the second, third, fourth and sixth harmonics will produce the twelfth harmonic.

Considering the sine wave function of the day length as depicting a fundament of the rhythm of the earth, we can then hypothecate fractional waves, ie those of double, triple, quadruple, etc frequency. The waves of triple and quadruple frequency combine to produce twelve unique segments, which in terms of astrophysics are the signs of the zodiac, as shown below, and explained at the previously linked post.
http://www.bautforum.com/attachments...sine-waves.jpg
Looking at this diagram, the pink CFM wave, with wavelength six months, is the quality wave function. Cardinal signs are those where the wave is moving away from the axis, fixed signs those where it turns, and mutable signs those where it moves towards the axis. The blue FEAW wave, with wavelength four months, is the element wave function. Ascending above axis = fire, descending above axis = earth, descending below axis = air, and ascending below axis = water. Please note, at this stage, these symbolic titles are used only for ease of reference, to illustrate how the astrological convention has a scientific structure. By combining the two wave functions, we obtain the following table. All the columns of this table are purely scientific except the last, which is the conventional interpretative theme resulting from the temporal combination of quality and element.
Celestial Mechanic chided me for this material, which he called twaddle. However, I think it is helpful to describe the emergent temporal logic of the permanent cyclic structure of the earth. Moving from ‘cardinal water’ to ‘feel’ may just be a poetic fancy, or it may represent a deep intuition of the temporal structure. You shouldn’t cut off research on this topic just because of its associations with anti-scientific folk traditions.

The Canopus-Vega axis is just a marker of the Great Year. In the first six signs listed above, the Pole is moving towards this axis, while in the latter six signs the Pole is moving away from the Canopus-Vega axis. A point I have made here is that this data illustrates the cosmic basis for the Vedic Yuga. The precession of the equinox back through winter and autumn signs corresponds to the ascending Yugas, and the precession through the summer and spring signs corresponds to the descending Yugas.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yuga says “A complete yuga cycle from a high Golden Age of enlightenment to a Dark Age and back again is said to be caused by the solar system's motion around a central sun.” What I have shown here is that this cycle is marked by the Canopus-Vega axis, but is caused by lunisolar precession of the earth’s equinox.

As a humble clerk I do not have scientific contacts. The experiment I described can easily be done by anyone at home or on a lab bench, and I am sorry I have not found time to do it. If anyone can help out I would be very grateful. The aim is to produce a natural harmonic sand mandala of the Great Year as a product of the regular patterns of the solstices, the equinoxes and their precession.

ETA: Readers may be interested in a related conversation with Maksutov at Question about Christmas

This chart illustrates the annual sine wave function of the length of the day in Chicago. The sine waves above have wavelengths half and one third of this annual cycle.

Attached Thumbnails

 

I wouldn't call a periodic waveform a "scientific structure." Maybe a "mathematical structure," but I don't see anything about this rhythm that can be falsified or have the scientific method applied to it.

It almost seems like calling your idea scientific is meant to lend credence to it.

Tobin Dax:
I agree with your observation.

Robert:
If you are not trying to use observed orbital motions to prove that astrology is science, then you would be better off not using astrological terms.
This means that you need to define what you mean by:
Earth=
Air=
Fire=
Water=
Cardinal=
Fixed=
Mutable=
What is the effect of your hypothesis?
What do you mean by "harmonic reverberation"?
What does it do?
Why is it important?
What do you mean by "temporal harmonic of the earth"?
As an aside, just about any periodic cycle can be understood by an analogy with musical harmonics.

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Did I cause a diversion, Robert, or is this an actual part of your proposed idea?

Your graph is a pretty picture, but it doesn't mean anything. Sure, it's a cycle, we understand that. There is no physical reason to ascribe numerical values to your qualities. Furthermore, a plot of three different values won't give a sine wave. Set C=+1, F=0, and M=-1, and see for yourself.


More to the point of the OP, where is the connection between a 1-year cycle and a 26,000 year cycle? Calling this 1:25765 ratio a resonance is absurd. Why is this annual cycle being applied to a cycle of much greater scope? I don't see any scientific reason to do that.

Twaddle it was, and twaddle it remains, and USDA Certified Grade AAA twaddle at that.
I prefer to leave the study of anti-scientific folk traditions to anthropologists. I mean no disrespect to anthropologists; folk traditions (and not just the anti-scientific ones!) are their business. But once you have removed the traditional and literary matter, how much is there for science? Nothing.
This "Axis of Vedas" (my term, I confess) is entirely accidental; within a half dozen of these "Great Years" of yours Canopus and Vega will be left far behind and both will be dim, unremarkable stars in the future sky.
Another example of why Wikipedia must always be read with CAUTION. Twaddle occasionally seeps in.
A marking which, like all of our present constallations, is entirely accidental and not germane to the effect allegedly "marked".

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It can be falsified. The wave forms are empirically derived. The point here is to show that the signs result from an astronomical observed pulse of the earth, contrary to the popular assumption, ably critiqued by Phil Plait and others, that they are claimed to be some sort of emanation from the stars themselves.
My last post actually did define what I mean by the elements and qualities. For example, ‘fire’ is the period when the 1/3 sine wave function of the year is moving from inflection to positive turning point. Anything more than this is astrological interpretation, whereas this definition is purely scientific. The model I have built here provides a new paradigm for geocentric astronomy. The structure of terrestrial time is informative to understand long term cycles and historical trends, and provides a prism to interpret a coded cosmology within ancient mythology and religion. There is a physical relation between the annual and precessional cycles of the earth. This relation is amplified by alignment with the 179 year Jupiter-Saturn-Neptune conjunction cycle, a period which corresponds to the Biblical cubit (Rev 21:17) as exactly 1/144th of the Great Year and one twelfth of the Zodiacal Age. The earth is part of a large system with stable regular cyclic periods which affect each other. The structure of the spin conditions complex natural systems on the earth. My work here presents new directions in astronomy, examining the empirical nature of the cycles of the earth to provide elegant corroboration of ancient astronomical wisdom, including ideas in the Vedic Yuga, the Bible and a range of other sources. The earth has permanent stable regular temporal cycles which can be plotted as sine wave functions. My approach uses these cycles as an empirical foundation for mathematical analysis, examining the fractional waves to explain the physics of tropical astrology. Yes, indeed. And here we have the main cycles of the earth. The musical analogy is informative to explain how the signs are a ‘musical’ product of the natural harmonic cycles of our planet.
The nature of the elements is actually central to the proposed idea, so thank you for raising it. The point is that the Yuga claims to see an ascending and descending cycle in the precession, from ages of ignorance (iron) through bronze and silver to gold (knowledge). They say we hit bottom (centre of iron) in about 500AD, and ascended from iron to bronze in about 1700. These dates basically match both the zodiacal precession, looked at against the structure of the year in reverse, and the move to and from the Canopus-Vega axis. This is why I see the old ‘binary star’ myth of the Yuga as a mistaken interpretation of an underlying astrophysical reality, that 14000 years ago Canopus and Vega were the Pole Stars. The elements and qualities are essential building blocks for the mathematics of the signs.Yes there is a physical reason to ascribe numerical values. Looking at the sine wave of the year, with the 12 hour day of the equinox as the axis, spring is positive ascending, summer is positive descending, autumn is negative descending and winter is negative ascending. The signs are the product of the duple and triple waves postulated as contained within this annual wave function.I don’t understand this point.Looking at the Chicago annual sine wave, the 1-year cycle also matches the position of the sun in the sky. A picture showing this sine wave of the sun through the zodiac is here. The annual position of the sun through the Great Year also follows this path, in reverse, forming the permanent cyclic rhythm of the earth. The reason is that if we look for regularity in the four billion year history of the earth, the annual cycle of the seasons and the Great Year cycle of precession leap out as main physical structures. At present rate, the wave function of the precession has had about 175,000 cycles since the dawn of time. I argue this wave function has directionality, seen through a glass darkly in the Vedic Yuga, which can be explained by postulating resonance with the annual cycle. What it means is that the end of the annual year (Pisces) exhibits similarity to the beginning of the Great Year (Age of Pisces) and that the structure of time can be analysed by mapping the annual cycle onto the Great Year.
Thanks CM, I didn’t expect to convince you that quickly! The wiki page says the Yuga are “said to” be caused by a binary star, but as you showed at Binary Sun Theory this theory is false. Yes, the Canopus-Vega Axis of the Golden Age is an accident which will only be in place for a few hundred thousand years of the present history of the earth. As a matter of interest, I asked at Vectors of Canopus and Vega how long this alignment will be in place. Adding these arrows to my temporal model of the celestial sphere would help nail the coffin of the binary sun theory.

Astrology you mean.

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Just because something can be falsified doesn't make it scientific. Counterfeit money comes to mind.
This tells me what you think they are, not what they mean. Why should I care what your "elements" are doing?
What do you mean by "geocentric astronomy"? Understand long term cycles of what? What historical trends? Do you have any proof that there is coded cosmology within ancient mythology and religion? WARNING: I am NOT trying to turn this into a discussion of religion!!!
I am choosing not to address this particular point.
Are you finally admitting that the purpose of this thread is to establish astrology as a science?
And what is a temporal cycle?
Where did "spin conditions" come from? Please tell us exactly what "complex natural systems" you are referring to.

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I would like to know the definitions of this type for cardinal, mutable, and fixed.

Robert Tulip, it seems to me you are trying to do something like the following...

----

Cycle: Day/Night

Cause: Earth rotation with respect to Sun

Effect: During half the cycle, people tend to be less active than the other half.

----

Cycle: Seasons

Cause: Combination of Earth orbit of Sun and Earth axis of rotation tilted with respect to Sun

Effect: During the quarter of the cycle called "Winter" people tend to wear more and warmer clothes than in the quarter called "Summer".

----

...but with longer, more complex (perhaps less well known or less obvious) cycles.

I don't think anyone is saying there are no such cycles ("Great Year" and such), but in presenting your case I would suggest being very careful with:

1. Cause vs. effect.

Be very careful with what you claim is a cause and what is an effect.

2. Drop the astrology, if you don't want this to be seen as astrology.

e.g.

There may be a scientific cause of the physical cycle; but what's this "fire", "Earth", "air" business?

If they are "just names", fine - but make that very clear. Perhaps drop them, as they are very misleading if you don't want this seen as astrology.

If they are more than just names (say, you want to show that more civillisations "burn down" during the "time of fire"), well, that's going to take quite some showing.

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And if they are just names I suggest you use Tang, Hung, Han and McSweeney instead, to make it clear you're not trying to resurrect the long disabused ideas about the elements.

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As an aside, my delay in response has partly been because I have been reading the Canopus in Argos Archives by Doris Lessing mentioned earlier in this thread, and partly because I have been busy finalising a patent application to solve global warming. Very interestingly, in the first Canopus book, Shikasta, Lessing tells a parable of the end of earth’s Golden Age as marked by the time when the lock with Canopus ended. She grew up like me in the Southern Hemisphere, very familiar with the main stars of the southern skies, and was able to link this southerly perspective into the Vedic and Sufi wisdom traditions through the imagined link between Canopean ‘Substance Of We Feeling’ and sophic traditions. Her fable exactly matches what I argue is the Vedic idea that the Golden Age was marked by the alignment between Canopus and the South Celestial Pole. No, I mean geocentric astronomy. The material here raises the problem of the border line between astronomy and astrology. There is actually a lot of astronomy that can be derived from viewing the earth as the centre of space. By building an empirical temporal geocentric model to show how earth wobbles back and forth on and off the Canopus-Vega axis, I have presented information about how the earth relates to the cosmos. For example, my demonstration that the Large Magellanic Cloud is at the centre of earth’s southern spin cone is a purely geocentric astronomical observation. It also provides a striking parallel to the old Vedic myth of the earth resting on a turtle. The idea of ascending and descending periods can be used for astrological interpretation, but my focus is firstly on the scientific description of this structure of terrestrial time. In Vedic thought, according to the Wikipedia entry on the Yuga, nineteenth century reinterpretation argued against the old claim that the Yuga cycles lasted billions of years, with the reinterpretation slicing the zeros off the billions to make the Yuga cycle last 24,000 years. The claim was that the billion year Yuga theory arose from cultural loss of the astronomical knowledge of precession which was the basis of the myth.

I am taking this modernisation of Vedic thought a step further by showing that the myth of the binary sun actually has an empirical basis in the perception of Canopus and Vega as marking the terrestrial axis during the Golden Age. This empirical basis is not dynamic, as precession is not caused by stars. However, it does present a way to show that the Vedic story is coherent, based on profound ancient observation of the slow movement of precession. India was an ideal place to observe precession, as the priests could readily have kept records of the increasing height of Canopus above the southern horizon over thousands of years. The destruction of old knowledge means it may be difficult to find evidence for this claim except through the type of reconstruction I present here.

I have shown a close correlation between the Vedic ascending and descending Yuga cycle and the shape of the precession of the zodiac, justifying exploration of a possible empirical basis. The scientific problems for this hypothesis include the question of why the precession cycle has a structure, how we can assess high and low points in this cycle, whether it is informative to compare this cycle to the annual cycle of the seasons in reverse, and to what extent the annual cycle can be decomposed into a regular empirical twelve-fold pattern. The elements are a product of the seasons, cycling three times as fast. The permanent temporal cycles of the earth produce harmonic relations that are analogous to the musical harmonics in an acoustic chamber. If a cathedral organ pipe resonates at 128 hertz, producing a low C, then the note G 2.5 octaves higher, at 1536 Hz, will sound as a high pitched harmonic with frequency twelve times the fundament. The high G can be detected as a resonant product of the low C, and of the Cs and Gs in between. The relation between the year and the frequency of the signs, with their elemental and quality patterns, has the same ratio of 12:1, so the elemental cycle of the signs is embedded in the cycle of the year. As explained in reply above to Henrik, geocentric astronomy is that astronomy which is premised on the assumption that the earth is the centre of space. This includes all the regular cycles of the earth, such as the day, the year and the precession, although these can of course also be understood within modern conventional de-centred perspectives. The only thing privileged about the earth is that we happen to live here, so considering it as the centre is of practical importance and utility.The earth has had four billion years of life evolving within strong cosmic cyclic regularity. The precession is a function of the year, with the sun returning 50 arc seconds later to each position each year, one degree every 71.6 years. My postulate is that this regular cycle is built in to the DNA of all the life that has evolved within it over billions of years of stability. For example, considering the 25765 year period of precession, it could be that genes differ in their adaptivity to parts of this cycle. I have no evidence for this genetic hypothesis and do not know how it could be assessed except through the methods I present here. I find it illuminating to consider the zodiacal ages as marking what Nietzsche called the eternal return of the same, providing a human scale cosmology rather than one measured by millions or billions of years. Events on earth separated by 2147 years can be compared, as I discussed at Astronomical History. Examples are the lives of Alexander and Napoleon, or Hannibal and Hitler. I admit this is a rather speculative line of enquiry, but it seems to throw up some interesting correlations, for example between the USA and ancient Rome, modern and ancient China, Europe and Greece, Russia and Sparta, etc.The best example I can suggest is the observation that the twelve jewels of the foundation stones of the holy city in Revelation 21 are seen by old orthodox tradition as representing the twelve signs of the zodiac in reverse, starting with Pisces and ending with Aries. I have pointed out that this matches the precession. Other verses in Revelation 21 support this astrotheological interpretation. David Ulansey discusses the precessional content of Mithraism at http://www.well.com/~davidu/mithras.html, seeing the triumph of man over bull in the Tauroctony as representing the transition from the Age of Taurus to the Age of Aries. I previously discussed Hamlet’s Mill, which is a major source regarding the connections between the Finnish Kalevala and ancient ideas of precession as a cosmic mill. This whole line of analysis has been rather heavily suppressed by Christian orthodoxy which has seen star religion as a pagan approach, even though it is strongly present in the Bible. Seeing the parable of loaves and fishes as encoding the movement of the equinox axis into Pisces and Virgo strikes me as persuasive.Yes, to the extent that the earth has regular periodic cycles which are caused by the rhythm of the solstices and equinoxes. These cycles are too weak to have easily measurable effects, and their effect is minimal in the short term compared to more observable factors. However, the planetary cycles have the advantage that they are permanent and are built into the bedrock of our DNA. A regular cycle of time such as the day, year or Great Year. In my statement “The structure of the spin conditions complex natural systems on the earth,” ‘conditions’ is the verb in the sentence, while ‘structure of the spin’ is the noun – pardon my unclear expression. I meant that the spin of precession, one wobble per 25765 years, conditions or affects everything within it on the earth. I am primarily thinking of human civilization as the main example that can be studied, but in principle the argument applies to all ecosystems, it is just that the data from history is more amenable to study. Thanks Tobin Dax, this is a good question which I hoped some one would ask. Cardinal, fixed and mutable are the periods shown by dividing the ¼ year sine wave in three. Cardinal is where this sine wave moves from inflection past the positive turning point, fixed where it moves across the downward inflection point, and mutable its rise back to the upward inflection point. However, in my diagram I show the wave with period ½ a year, and divide this in six, with the same result, because this shows the cycle more readily.

You may ask, why is 1/3 of a sine wave of interest? This is where my sand mandala experiment is helpful, showing how the periods of a ripple from the edge of a circular pool are mutually reinforcing by making an equilateral triangle at the points where they bounce off the far sides of the pool. This shows how dividing a wavelength by whole fractions produces reinforcing harmonics at the frequency twelve times the fundament. Hence the ¼ wave, when divided by three, matches the 1/3 wave divided by four. Thanks pzkpfw. Part of the problem here is that these astrological concepts, in their popular use, are embedded in a magical world view where scientific evidence is not considered. This rightly rankles with scientists, but I am arguing there is potential to bridge the conflicting camps by looking at the underlying physics which informs astrology. The emergence of science out of astrology enabled accurate knowledge rather than the wishful thinking of folk tradition, so I am not suggesting any sort of return to stagnant mysticism. In the phrase actually originated by Johannes Kepler in discussing this precise problem, we should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. To my observation, categorising the months by the twelve fold cycle of the elements and qualities seems informative, although weak. Of course astrologers have created their bad reputation by using such observations to build all sorts of groundless speculation. My hope is that by sticking to the hypothesis that the Great Year has a natural organic structure, I can show that these old concepts have scientific content. The four elements match the four quarters of a sine wave. Any temporal structures which can be depicted by such a regular sine wave can be investigated to find the emergent logic of the cycle of the four elements. I don’t like to hijack the scientific concept of the element, but the fact is the fourfold interpretation has a very old pedigree, even though its scientific content has not been understood.

The broad agenda of this material is purely scientific, interpreting the structure of time to predict the long term future. On this model, earth reached a low point around 0-1000 AD, and has since commenced a slow ascent towards a time when humanity will be in tune with the cosmos.

This is where you bring it all crashing down again. How on Earth is that science and not fantasy?

---

If we take it as given that the physical cycles exist, how do you propose to then prove any link to human behaviour?

Does it all amount to this kind of thing? ...

(my bold)



How will you show any possible physical cause-effect?

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Doris Lessing. You're using a work of fiction to try and make your argument

Again, most of your word salad is just nonsense and I am tired of parsing through it, but there are two things that you stated that I wish to comment on.
I would suggest that the "twelve jewels" do not refer to the signs of the zodiac, but rather to the twelve tribes of Israel.

As far as
I have yet to read anything that lends itself to scientific experimental verification/falsification. Everything that you think is science is nothing more than astrology rehashed.

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Thanks, Robert. This is exactly the answer I expected.

How is 1/4 or 1/3 or an arbitrary sine wave a valid definition of an element or a quality?

If you can't even give something vaguely resembling a physical (or scientific) definition of these, how can any sort of scientific discourse or evaluation proceed?

No, the description of a part of an arbitrary sine wave does not have any science associated with it. It is a mathematical description with no meaning. The lack of a physical (astronomy- or astrology-related) reason for the periods of your sine wave doesn't help.

I'm going to quit playing, and I'm going to explain exactly what I mean.

A day is a cycle with a natural cause. If you want to apply a sine wave to it, the position of the sun in the sky over a day will follow a sinusoidal pattern.

A year is a cycle with a natural cause, and Robert has produced one of his sine wave graphs that show this cycle.

Neither of these has a subcycle with any physical meaning. Hours, minutes, and seconds are arbitrary of arbitary length and number. Months are of arbitrary length and number. A lunar month isn't, but the twelve calendar months and the twelve signs of the zodiac are arbitrary in number.

If Robert Tulip can provide a three- or four-month long natural cycle that relates to astronomy, I'll concede this point. However, I don't expect that to happen. The easy one, three-month long seasons, are not cycles themselves, but a part of the annual cycle of the sun through the sky (from an Earth-bound point of view).

This is a question. I am asking for a valid example of a three- or four-month long natural cycle that would apply to Robert's model.