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Old 02-November-2009, 10:29 PM
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Arrow A singularity free N Body problem – solution

Till now we are seeing the Dynamic Universe Model as alternative to other cosmological models. But now I want to project it as a simple singularity free N-body problem which was not solved till now say from 1880 onwards when king Oscar II announced the prize. Using this N-body solution we can achieve various results as follows.

1. Offers Singularity free solutions
2. Non- collapsing Galaxy structures
3. Solving Missing mass in Galaxies, and it finds reason for Galaxy circular velocity curves….
4. Blue shifted and red shifted Galaxies co-existence…
5. Explains the force behind expansion of universe.
6. Explains the large voids and non-uniform matter densities.
7. Explains the Pioneer anomaly
8. Predicts the trajectory of New Horizons satellite.

Mainly because, points 2,3 7 and 8 are not cosmological problems, they were N-body problems. Point 1 is required in both N-body solution as well as cosmology……


History:


Historically, King Oscar II of Sweden announced a prize to a solution of N-body problem with advice given by Gösta Mittag-Leffler in 1887.

He announced ‘Given a system of arbitrarily many mass points that attract each according to Newton's law, under the assumption that no two points ever collide, try to find a representation of the coordinates of each point as a series in a variable that is some known function of time and for all of whose values the series converges uniformly.’
[This is taken from Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N-body_problem ].

The announced dead line that time was1st June 1888. And after that dead line , on 21st January 1889, Great mathematician Poincaré claimed that prize. Later he himself sent a telegram to journal Acta Mathematica to stop printing the special issue after finding the error in his solution. Yet for such a man of science reputation is important than money. [ Ref Book ‘Celestial mechanics: the waltz of the planets’ By Alessandra Celletti, Ettore Perozzi, page 27]. He realized that he has been wrong in his general stability result! But till now nobody could solve that problem or claimed that prize. Later all solutions resulted in singularities and collisions of masses, given by many people…..


Now................


I want to say that the Dynamic Universe Model solves this classical N-body problem where only Newtonian Gravitation law and classical Physics were used. In this mathematical frame work the solution converges at all points. There are no multiple values, diverging solutions or divided by zero singularities. You have to input various values of masses, accelerations, velocities and positions and distances with a time step to get the next set of positions depending on the Universal Gravitational Force on a particular body. I have not used the conventional methodology for the solution, but it is a numerical solution, which can be done with a person with a calculator. I tested it extensively, it is singularity free. Any discussion on this matter is welcome…………

Collisions of masses depend on physical values of masses and their space distribution only. These collisions do not happen due to internal inherent problems of Dynamic universe Model. If the mass distribution is homogeneous and isotropic, the masses will colloid. If the mass distribution is heterogeneous and anisotropic, they do not colloid. This approach solves many problems which otherwise can not be solved by General relativity, Steady state universe model etc…



To summarize in other words:



In Dynamic Universe Model, there are no singularities and no collisions if we use heterogeneous mass distributions. When homogeneous mass distributions are used, there are collisions but no singularities. Resultant Universal Gravitational Force is calculated for each body for every time step in all the three dimensions. Conservation of energy, moment etc, were taken into consideration as shown in the Mathematical formulation. Using exactly same setup of mathematics and SITA algorithm and same number of 132 masses, all the results are derived, in the last 17 years.
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Old 02-November-2009, 11:10 PM
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This thread makes claims about the "Dynamic Universe Model" but provides no actual details about that model nor any proof of those claims.

Clearly it is a further attempt to promote a model that has already had its' chance in the ATM forum.

If anyone sees a need to re-open this thread please report this post, with details of why.
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Old 02-November-2009, 11:25 PM
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Being the moderator who authorized snp.gupta to initiate this thread, I'm reopening it for discussion. From the summary I was given (included in the OP) it would appear that this thread is intended to address subjects sufficiently different from previous Dynamic Universe Model threads to warrant discussion.

snp.gupta,

Moderator pskpfw is certainly correct to indicate that so far, your thread is decicient of support for your assertions. I trust that support is immediately forthcoming. Otherwise, I'll lock this thread myself, with extreme prejudice.
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Old 03-November-2009, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
This thread makes claims about the "Dynamic Universe Model" but provides no actual details about that model nor any proof of those claims.

Clearly it is a further attempt to promote a model that has already had its' chance in the ATM forum.

If anyone sees a need to re-open this thread please report this post, with details of why.
Sir,

From the bolded words from your post , You are getting a feeling that I am hiding some thing, some details etc. I am not hiding any thing. Please ask all your questions….

I am working for the sake of humanity. I am not hiding anything. Please ask me the details you want. May be my technical terminology may be slightly different. You people from Physics stream, may be using same terms in a slightly different way. I am from Engineering background. May be sometimes I did not study some literature you are referring. Please give me some such details.

I am an open man. I don’t want any thing from any body. What ever the resources are available with me I am using them at my level. I did not use anybody else’s resources for this purpose.

Please feel free to ask your doubts and questions in this open forum, I will reply….

Regards
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Old 03-November-2009, 04:48 AM
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Originally Posted by PetersCreek View Post

snp.gupta,

Moderator pskpfw is certainly correct to indicate that so far, your thread is decicient of support for your assertions. I trust that support is immediately forthcoming. Otherwise, I'll lock this thread myself, with extreme prejudice.
Thank you sir,

I hope I will not go into such problem. Previously due to my computer failure on posting the first post, and availability of less resources, my 2nd post got delayed; which I have indicated before opening my thread.

I have no problem of sharing my views and answering your questions with in my available resources. I will support my assertions…….
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Old 03-November-2009, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
You have to input various values of masses, accelerations, velocities and positions and distances with a time step to get the next set of positions depending on the Universal Gravitational Force on a particular body. I have not used the conventional methodology for the solution, but it is a numerical solution, which can be done with a person with a calculator. I tested it extensively, it is singularity free. Any discussion on this matter is welcome…………
From that description, I would say that this was first done over three hundred years ago. A numerical solution is nothing new.

I'm even doubting the reliability of your method--you should provide more details.
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Old 03-November-2009, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
Thank you sir,

I hope I will not go into such problem. Previously due to my computer failure on posting the first post, and availability of less resources, my 2nd post got delayed; which I have indicated before opening my thread.

I have no problem of sharing my views and answering your questions with in my available resources. I will support my assertions…….
Ok,

As a warm-up problem, let's consider only two bodies, on of mass m , the other of mass M>>m. The body of mass m is moving in a straight line towards the body of mass M under the gravitational force GMm/r^2. The initial distance between the bodies is d and their initial relative speed is 0. Solve the equation of motion for the smaller body.

If you managed to solve the first problem you will not have a problem posting the solution for the case of three bodies. Let's say that they are of equal mass, in order to make the exercise simpler and that they are separated by the distances d_12, d_23 and d_31.
Solve the problem, please. Symbolic solution, not numerical.

Last edited by macaw; 03-November-2009 at 05:53 AM..
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Old 03-November-2009, 06:26 AM
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I eagerly await snp.gupta's answer to macaw's question. Please excuse me not holding my breath.

I'm with the mods here. All I see is an assertion with nothing to back it up. You can say that your model is independently verifiable but unless you provide the formulas how is anyone supposed to verify your claim?
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Old 03-November-2009, 06:39 AM
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From that description, I would say that this was first done over three hundred years ago. A numerical solution is nothing new.

I'm even doubting the reliability of your method--you should provide more details.
Please ask me what type of details you need....
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Old 03-November-2009, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by WayneFrancis View Post
.

I'm with the mods here. All I see is an assertion with nothing to back it up. You can say that your model is independently verifiable but unless you provide the formulas how is anyone supposed to verify your claim?

The paper is available at

Modified paper of Dynamic Univesrse Model
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Old 03-November-2009, 07:14 AM
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Ok,

As a warm-up problem, let's consider only two bodies, on of mass m , the other of mass M>>m. The body of mass m is moving in a straight line towards the body of mass M under the gravitational force GMm/r^2. The initial distance between the bodies is d and their initial relative speed is 0. Solve the equation of motion for the smaller body.

If you managed to solve the first problem you will not have a problem posting the solution for the case of three bodies. Let's say that they are of equal mass, in order to make the exercise simpler and that they are separated by the distances d_12, d_23 and d_31.
Solve the problem, please. Symbolic solution, not numerical.
You are exactly correct sir,

You have to use the equations given in

A singularity free N Body problem – solution

Dynamic Universe Model will work for 2 bodies or 3 bodies or 1 million bodies. All You have to do is to calculate Universal Gravitational Force (UGF) acting on each body using Newtonian Gravitational attraction as given by you here in your post. For a two body motion it will be simplified to Newtonian Gravitational attraction equation. For Three bodies and above, it will calculate UGF, with the same set of equations….

By the way what is ‘r’ in your equation? Probably you are confusing it with ‘d’
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Old 03-November-2009, 07:35 AM
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Quote:
Fortis
From your description you have not solved the N-body problem. You are (to the best of your ability) carrying out a numerical simulation of the N-body problem. That is not the same as solving the problem as is normally understood by this term.

Did any body solve singularity free N- Body problem using Newtonian gravitation??
You have to use the equations given at
A singularity free N Body problem – solution

You can say it is numerical calculation of values using equations given above. Generally in engineering terminology we use the term ‘simulation’ for depicting any problem on a computer. In a simulation computer will take some decisions. Here only simple calculations are done using a computer. They can be done with any person with a calculator.

I could not get your point, what else are required by you….?
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Old 03-November-2009, 07:42 AM
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NOT

GOOD

ENOUGH.


You have had previous threads.

You were allowed this new thread because it seemed you had something new to add.

But you have provioded no new detail, and only links to your previous, locked, threads.

So far there seems little reason for this thread to exist. Please start answering the questions, here, in this thread.

Try - here in this thread - to provide some detail for the claims you made in the OP )post #1 of this thread).

Post #7 from macaw would be a good start.
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Old 03-November-2009, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
You have to use the equations given at
A singularity free N Body problem – solution

You can say it is numerical calculation of values using equations given above. Generally in engineering terminology we use the term ‘simulation’ for depicting any problem on a computer. In a simulation computer will take some decisions. Here only simple calculations are done using a computer. They can be done with any person with a calculator.

I could not get your point, what else are required by you….?

Please stop linking to post to post to post.
These links do NOT lead to the equations that you claim.
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by pzkpfw View Post
NOT

GOOD

ENOUGH.


You have had previous threads.

You were allowed this new thread because it seemed you had something new to add.

But you have provioded no new detail, and only links to your previous, locked, threads.

So far there seems little reason for this thread to exist. Please start answering the questions, here, in this thread.

Try - here in this thread - to provide some detail for the claims you made in the OP )post #1 of this thread).

Post #7 from macaw would be a good start.
ok,

Just tell me how to bring equations into this post? It is not taking equations for copy and paste. There is a difficulty, how to write equations here, i requre blackboard and chalk.......

Ok, I will add some more words of explanation. In the mathematical section that paper, we can see equation 25, that gives the resultant UGF, after converting this equation into gravitational force it will become 'GMm/r^2' for two bodies in vector form.

For three and higher number of bodies it becomes multiples of number of bodies of 'GMm/r^2' in vector form, and so on. We just follow equation 25, it solves all....

Please ask me your doubts , if further explanation is needed....
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post

Please stop linking to post to post to post.
These links do NOT lead to the equations that you claim.
How to tell the same point repeatedly? Ok, i will tell verbally from now on....

Ok , dont worry.
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:34 AM
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Quote:
korjik

From previous thread....

Did any body solve singularity free N- Body problem using Newtonian gravitation??

If your dynamic universe model gives a solution to the n-body problem, why havent you published the solution?
I want to publish it, Can you please help me in that respect....

Probably my English explanation is not that very good. That’s why you people are facing problem from my explanations, I feel.

That’s why I am asking you people to put your quarries repeatedly, till my explanation becomes meaningful to you
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:40 AM
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Macaw posted this problem for you to solve
Quote:
As a warm-up problem, let's consider only two bodies, on of mass m , the other of mass M>>m. The body of mass m is moving in a straight line towards the body of mass M under the gravitational force GMm/r^2. The initial distance between the bodies is d and their initial relative speed is 0. Solve the equation of motion for the smaller body.
start by showing how your theory solves it, add some numbers.
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
Just tell me how to bring equations into this post?
Try this.
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
macaw

Prom previous post.
Did any body solve singularity free N- Body problem using Newtonian gravitation??

you mean, it was disproved
It is new for them. People are trying to under stand now.
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Old 03-November-2009, 11:38 AM
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Try this.

It is for LaTeX, which i dont know.

Is there any website that converts Microsoft Equation editor outputs which can be shown here on forum?

Meanwhile I will try to learn this also, ASAP....

Thank you
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Old 03-November-2009, 11:42 AM
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Macaw posted this problem for you to solve start by showing how your theory solves it, add some numbers.
Yes, something I already wrote. Some I will post with MS equation editor ASAP....

What actually you mean by ' add some numbers'? I I could not get your point, Please explain me.
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Old 03-November-2009, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
It is for LaTeX, which i dont know.

Is there any website that converts Microsoft Equation editor outputs which can be shown here on forum?

Meanwhile I will try to learn this also, ASAP....

Thank you
If you use Mozilla Firefox as a browser, then load the add-on abcTajpu, which will give you access to unnumerous symbols.

Then there are for easy use the commands
[sub - /sub] for subscript
[sup - /sup] for superscript

That will get you underway.
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Old 03-November-2009, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
You have to use the equations given in

A singularity free N Body problem – solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
You have to use the equations given at
A singularity free N Body problem – solution
Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
Ok, I will add some more words of explanation. In the mathematical section that paper, we can see equation 25, that gives the resultant UGF, after converting this equation into gravitational force it will become 'GMm/r^2' for two bodies in vector form.

For three and higher number of bodies it becomes multiples of number of bodies of 'GMm/r^2' in vector form, and so on. We just follow equation 25, it solves all....

Please ask me your doubts , if further explanation is needed....
I followed those links (and re-links) and never came to a place that had an equation 25.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hhEb09'1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
You have to input various values of masses, accelerations, velocities and positions and distances with a time step to get the next set of positions depending on the Universal Gravitational Force on a particular body. I have not used the conventional methodology for the solution, but it is a numerical solution, which can be done with a person with a calculator. I tested it extensively, it is singularity free. Any discussion on this matter is welcome…………
From that description, I would say that this was first done over three hundred years ago. A numerical solution is nothing new.

I'm even doubting the reliability of your method--you should provide more details.
As near as I can tell, you are merely describing a numerical solution, and the other documentation is deficient as well.
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Old 03-November-2009, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
You are exactly correct sir,

You have to use the equations given in

A singularity free N Body problem – solution

Dynamic Universe Model will work for 2 bodies or 3 bodies or 1 million bodies. All You have to do is to calculate Universal Gravitational Force (UGF) acting on each body using Newtonian Gravitational attraction as given by you here in your post. For a two body motion it will be simplified to Newtonian Gravitational attraction equation. For Three bodies and above, it will calculate UGF, with the same set of equations….

By the way what is ‘r’ in your equation? Probably you are confusing it with ‘d’
r is the variable distance between the two bodies. As in the universal attraction law: F=GMm/r^2

So, now that you know, what is the equation of motion and what is the solution of the equation of motion?
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Old 03-November-2009, 08:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
Is there any website that converts Microsoft Equation editor outputs which can be shown here on forum?
One way:

Just take a screen-shot of the equation being clearly displayed on your system. (The "Print Screen" key).

Use mspaint or similar to cut it down to just the bits you need to show. (Paste the clipboard into a new image).

Upload the image as an attachment to your post.


Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta View Post
What actually you mean by ' add some numbers'? I I could not get your point, Please explain me.
Oh for goodness sake.

He means USE your equation. Do some REAL calculations with it.

Show your working.
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Old 03-November-2009, 08:28 PM
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snp.gupta,

You assured me that you were ready to support, defend, and answer questions about your theory. It appears that you are not.

It is not up to other members to tell you how to best support your theory. You should have prepared this support long before now. At the very least, you should have anticipated the obvious questions and challenges to your theory, especially in regard to the main points you summarized, which contradict the mainstream. You should also have prepared your math...and a means to present it...since a purported N-body solution cannot adequately be presented without it.

Not to be too blunt...but as far as this moderator is concerned, you need to start getting your act together within the next couple of posts to avoid thread closure.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 03-November-2009, 09:02 PM
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snp.gupta snp.gupta is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tusenfem View Post
If you use Mozilla Firefox as a browser, then load the add-on abcTajpu, which will give you access to unnumerous symbols.

Then there are for easy use the commands
[sub - /sub] for subscript
[sup - /sup] for superscript

That will get you underway.
I am using MS internet Explorer as browser, How to use this any Idea...
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 03-November-2009, 09:06 PM
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I followed those links (and re-links) and never came to a place that had an equation 25.
You will have to open the paper on Dynamic Universe model , Go to mathematical back ground, see the equation 25
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Old 03-November-2009, 09:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hhEb09'1
Quote:
Originally Posted by snp.gupta
You have to input various values of masses, accelerations, velocities and positions and distances with a time step to get the next set of positions depending on the Universal Gravitational Force on a particular body. I have not used the conventional methodology for the solution, but it is a numerical solution, which can be done with a person with a calculator. I tested it extensively, it is singularity free. Any discussion on this matter is welcome…………
From that description, I would say that this was first done over three hundred years ago. A numerical solution is nothing new.

I'm even doubting the reliability of your method--you should provide more details.
As near as I can tell, you are merely describing a numerical solution, and the other documentation is deficient as well.
For example I take equation f(x) = x^2+5x+10 , put various values for x say zero, various other values and large numbers for infinity or minus infinity etc to test the behavior of equation for f(x), will call it as a numerical solution?

Here Equations set has many variables, x, y, z, a, b, c, d, f, g etc many…. How will you solve them and test the behavior of equations. Please give me an example, how it was done three hundred years back…
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