The Tour de France

[Laser Jock]

Since there was a Euro 2004 thread, I decided we should have a TDF thread.

I think Lance Armstrong will win his 6th in a row. There was a nasty crash at the end of stage 6. Fortunately, Lance and Jan Ulrich were not involved in the crash, but at first looked like he might lose a little time to Jan Ulrich. Now they are posting (HERE (http://www.letour.fr/2004/us/index.html)) that they finished at the same time.

[hdram225]

I love Lance Armstrong so much!! I hope he does win. He is amazing. I wish I could see more of the tour de France, but they just dont show it much here(Oklahoma).

heather

[Wally]

If your cable or satillite offers OLN (Outdoor Living Network, or something like that. . ), they've been carrying it on a daily basis (taped delayed, of course).

[kucharek]

I love Lance Armstrong so much!! I hope he does win. He is amazing. I wish I could see more of the tour de France, but they just dont show it much here(Oklahoma).

heather
As Karlsruhe is close to the French border, some years ago Le Tour went through my town. And Armstrong is here nearly every year for a two-man time trial.

Is there some big international bicycle race in the US? If I think about it, I don't know about any big event outside Europe.

[Wally]

I love Lance Armstrong so much!! I hope he does win. He is amazing. I wish I could see more of the tour de France, but they just dont show it much here(Oklahoma).

heather
As Karlsruhe is close to the French border, some years ago Le Tour went through my town. And Armstrong is here nearly every year for a two-man time trial.

Is there some big international bicycle race in the US? If I think about it, I don't know about any big event outside Europe.

Nope. Not anything like the TDF anyways. That's the biggie, world-over, I guess!

[ToSeek]

My company (CSC) sponsors one of the major teams in the Tour de France. One of our guys is the one who finished the race last year despite a broken collarbone.

[Laser Jock]

My company (CSC) sponsors one of the major teams in the Tour de France. One of our guys is the one who finished the race last year despite a broken collarbone.

Tyler Hamilton? That was truly an astonishing feat. Lance was really struggling last year. Imagine if Tyler had been healthy...

[kucharek]

My company (CSC) sponsors one of the major teams in the Tour de France. One of our guys is the one who finished the race last year despite a broken collarbone.
Two years ago, at the two-man time trial in Karlsruhe, on his last round, Laurent Jalabert dropped his bottle just right in front of me and my son. I just pulled it from the shelf: It was Tiscali-CSC.

Harald

[hdram225]

If your cable or satillite offers OLN (Outdoor Living Network, or something like that. . ), they've been carrying it on a daily basis (taped delayed, of course).

Nope!! I don't get it here. My sister, who lives in southwesthern oklahoma, got oln last year, and she would watch it all the time, but now they took it off. She would tape bits of it for me to watch. I miss that. :(

[mike alexander]

It would be a lot more fun if they had those spike things on the wheels like the chariots in Ben-Hur.

[NASA Fan]

Lance is amazing, he is a cancer survivor.

He is from Texas.

[Laser Jock]

The 10th stage has now finished. It was the first stage with some serious climbs. Looks like Lance has gained about 6 seconds on Tyler Hamilton. Lance's other serious competitors finished with him.

[Laser Jock]

=D> =D> =D> =D>

Go Lance!!

We all knew that the mountain stages would seperate the men from the boys. He made his move and is now 3 minutes and 37 seconds ahead of Ullrich. Hamilton is even further behind. Ivan Basso who won the stage (Armstrong finished at the same time) looks pretty strong and could present a challenge. We will see, but I would guess that Lance will be in yellow after tomorrow. He's built such a lead that it's likely to stay that way.

=D> =D> =D> =D>

[mike alexander]

Heck with that:

2004 Tour de Blast: June 19, 2004

First-timers and old pros, it's time to get ready to ride. The Longview Rotary Club once again presents Tour de Blast, a bicycle ride into the heart of the Mount St. Helens blast zone.

[gethen]

Just because someone has to be the wet blanket, I've watched the Tour for the last few years, ever since my daughter met her future (now actual) husband, a major league bike geek. I found it much more fun and interesting to watch when I was watching with someone who knew all the ins and outs, all the cyclists, and all about the bikes. The wet blanket part? He's said for years that Lance Armstrong, while a terrific bike rider and courageous cancer survivior, is one of the least popular members of the Tour among the other cyclists. Seems he has a long-standing reputation for arrogance, and has conducted a major PR campaign to lose that designation. While the general public has bought the "New Lance," most of the old time fans and cyclists still think he's a jerk. My son-in-law and all of his bike geek friends have been pulling for other cyclists (Hamiltion, Ullrich, etc.) for the last two or three years.
Of course, I think it requires a tremendous ego to be the kind of athlete Armstrong is. Maybe it's a side effect of that sort of ambition.

[Bawheid]

Just returned from a week in France watching the Tour and riding some of the roads. :D :D :D

Gethen has hit it on the head, Armstrong is single minded and driven but unlikeable. He has one of the few autobiographies that make you like the subject less with every chapter.

He has found a race that suits him and wins it, the media go for the easy article and push Le Tour as the only race worth winning and therefore Armstrong as the best cyclist ever. His sponsors buy into that so he gets an easy ride from them.

We are used to unlikeable heroes, Merckx and Hinault were driven and ruthless while racing, but they were accessible and raced all season usually doing at least two Grand Tours and a bunch of Classics every season. Cycling fans feel that Armstrong doesn't race as much as he could and to us it will be "yeah six Tours, but he's never ridden a Vuelta or Giro" until he does we will always view him as underachieving.

To pre-empt what will follow;

Armstrong: 5 Grand Tours, 1 World Championship, 0 World Cup races
Merckx: 11 GT, 2 WChamps, 20 or so WC races
Hinault: 10 GT, 1 WC, 10 WC races
Indurain: 7GT, 1 TT WC, 1 WC, World Hour record

As for races in North America, the Worlds were in Hamilton last year, the Tour de Georgia was in May. Armstrong and Cipo were both there.

www.cyclingnews.com has a comprehensive list of races etc. The cycling at the Olympics should be good, try and watch some of the track racing as well. If you can watch the Madison without ending up like :o you are seriously hard to please.

(Edited to increase Indurain's palmares due to my memory failure)

[Wally]

Well, you don't have to like Armstrong as a person, but it's still fun to watch him win as an American (if you'll pardon a bit of patriotism this morning!)

[gethen]

Cycling fans feel that Armstrong doesn't race as much as he could and to us it will be "yeah six Tours, but he's never ridden a Vuelta or Giro" until he does we will always view him as underachieving.
......
.Armstrong: 5 Grand Tours, 1 World Championship, 0 World Cup races
Merckx: 11 GT, 2 WChamps, 20 or so WC races
Hinault: 10 GT, 1 WC, 10 WC races
Indurain: 7GT, 1 TT WC, 1 WC, World Hour record

Have you been talking to my son-in-law? :wink: He also says that Armstrong trains almost exclusively for the Tour, to the exclusion of all the other big races. Since he's a big fan of the Giro, that really bugs him.
But Wally does have a point--it's fun to watch Armstrong pull of one of his huge breaks on those big climbs. But the little climbers are the real cyclists anyway, aren't they?

[Bawheid]

Cycling fans feel that Armstrong doesn't race as much as he could and to us it will be "yeah six Tours, but he's never ridden a Vuelta or Giro" until he does we will always view him as underachieving.
......
.Armstrong: 5 Grand Tours, 1 World Championship, 0 World Cup races
Merckx: 11 GT, 2 WChamps, 20 or so WC races
Hinault: 10 GT, 1 WC, 10 WC races
Indurain: 7GT, 1 TT WC, 1 WC, World Hour record

Have you been talking to my son-in-law? :wink: He also says that Armstrong trains almost exclusively for the Tour, to the exclusion of all the other big races. Since he's a big fan of the Giro, that really bugs him.
But Wally does have a point--it's fun to watch Armstrong pull of one of his huge breaks on those big climbs. But the little climbers are the real cyclists anyway, aren't they?

Your daughter is a lucky woman to have so wise a husband. :D

Nah, real cyclists aren't mountain munchkins, we ride cobbles

www.letour.fr/stf/roubaix/2004/us/

or cobbled bergs

http://www.rvv.be/eng/index.html

[kucharek]

At the moment, Ullrich attacks and makes some minutes good on Armstrong. Let's see if he can hold this.

[Laser Jock]

At the moment, Ullrich attacks and makes some minutes good on Armstrong. Let's see if he can hold this.

Nope, Armstrong's group has caught him at the base of the Col de Chalimont climb. Since Voeckler is a long way back in the pelaton, it appears that Lance will be in yellow at the end of the day. I think Voeckler has surprised everyone by holding on to the yellow jersey for so long.

[Laser Jock]

Stage 15 is now over and Armstrong has won the stage. He gained 3 seconds on Ullrich. Ivan Basso finished at the same time as Armstrong. Lance has safely taken the yellow jersey by finishing 9:27 ahead of Voeckler.

[Bawheid]

Down to him and Basso now, this one hasn't panned out the way anyone expected.

[ToSeek]

Down to him and Basso now, this one hasn't panned out the way anyone expected.

Well, Armstrong taking the lead is not a big surprise.

[kucharek]

Down to him and Basso now, this one hasn't panned out the way anyone expected.

Well, Armstrong taking the lead is not a big surprise.

Yeah. The Force is strong with the Armstrongs. ;-)
But while Neil had just to climb down a ladder to become immortal, Lance has to torture himself once a year.

[ToSeek]

Down to him and Basso now, this one hasn't panned out the way anyone expected.

Well, Armstrong taking the lead is not a big surprise.

Yeah. The Force is strong with the Armstrongs. ;-)
But while Neil had just to climb down a ladder to become immortal, Lance has to torture himself once a year.

I think Neil had to do some work to get to that ladder, though.

[JFM]

The entire US Postal team works to ensure that Lance wins one race a year. That race has made him very rich. I do not, however, consider him to be anywhere near his old adversary Indurain as a cyclist.

Gee this post reads pompous!

Edit.

I meant Ulrich as his adversary.

[Laser Jock]

WOW!! :o :o

Stage 16 is complete and Lance has gained 2:22 on Basso. He finished over a minute of Ullrich who took second place in the stage. He now leads Basso by 3:48. That was a very impressive performance by Lance.

I don't see why training exclusively for the Tour de France is a bad thing. It is the most prestigious bike race in the world. I also don't see anything wrong with a strong team that is committed to helping their captain win. For one, it shows that he has a good relationship with his teammates.

I can't help but wonder if some of the negative attitude towards Lance is just a little bit of sour grapes. An American (a Texan no less) beating the French in their own race bothers some.

It reminds me a little of Jeff Gordon in NASCAR here in the US. He is very, very good (although not as dominant as Lance), yet most fans hate him since he does not fit into their narrow perception of what a great stock car racer is supposed to be like.

[russ_watters]

The entire US Postal team works to ensure that Lance wins one race a year. That race has made him very rich. I do not, however, consider him to be anywhere near his old adversary Indurain as a cyclist.
It hasn't hurt his team either. Either way though, he's a pretty amazing rider.

[gethen]

WOW!! :o :o

I don't see why training exclusively for the Tour de France is a bad thing. It is the most prestigious bike race in the world. I also don't see anything wrong with a strong team that is committed to helping their captain win. For one, it shows that he has a good relationship with his teammates.

I can't help but wonder if some of the negative attitude towards Lance is just a little bit of sour grapes. An American (a Texan no less) beating the French in their own race bothers some.

It's not wrong to train for just one race. But it's not fair either to compare a quarterback who trains for and only plays in the Super Bowl (and wins) with a quarterback who's been playing and winning all season and then wins in the Super Bowl as well. As Bawhied's post above notes, other great cyclists have won the Tour and the Giro and other big races as well, while racing all season, risking injury and exhaustion all the way.
As I recall, the French loved Greg LaMonde, another American Tour winner, even though he was widely criticized for forgetting that his role on the team was to support the head rider and going after the win for himself.
I loved watching Armstrong eat up the mountain today as well. No denying his determination or hard work.

[beskeptical]

I think Lance gets credit for a bit more than winning the TdF again and again. If that was the whole story you might have an argument, but it isn't the whole story. [-X

[Bawheid]

I think Lance gets credit for a bit more than winning the TdF again and again. If that was the whole story you might have an argument, but it isn't the whole story. [-X

Not sure what your point is here beskep. I respect Armstrong for winning five and for surviving cancer. Nothing above says anyone doesn't. I also respect Lemond for his three after coming back from his lifethreatening event, Museeuw for his wins after his two lifethreatening crashes. Virtually every top cyclist has overcome something. What I do argue is that Armstrong winning six does not put him in the same class as Merckx, Hinualt or Indurain who were more than one trick ponies albeit it is a very impressive trick.

As has been said, in the peloton Armstrong is not widely respected, unlike Zabel, Bettini or Dekker for example. Armstrong is not a "Patron" in the way Merckx and Hinault were, or in the way Cipo still is in Italy. As for the Mailmen, who knows what they really think. There are two team busses, one for Armstrong and Hincapie, the other for the rest of the team.

This is not an anti-US pro-French thing, I really don't care what nationality Armstrong is, and given his surname we ought to be claiming him as Scots. For a more balanced view of his place in the cycling pantheon a check of non-US and non-english websites might be useful.

[gethen]

I think Lance gets credit for a bit more than winning the TdF again and again. If that was the whole story you might have an argument, but it isn't the whole story. [-X
As Bawheid noted, no one would suggest that Armstrong is not an incredible Tour de France racer. His achievement there speaks for itself. And his fight against cancer and subsequent work as spokesman for the battle against that disease are worthy of great respect all by themselves.
But, I think the rest of the world doesn't understand why, since his wins are pretty much confined to a single race, Americans seem to consider him the top cyclist of all time, even over those noted above. Rather than the rest of the world not showing Armstrong the respect we think he deserves, I think the problem is that Americans don't seem to show those other great cyclists the respect they earned over and over and over. Witness the OLN coverage of the "Tour de Lance."

[Bawheid]

Thanks Gethen, as always someone else puts it more eloquently than I do.

Cracking stage today, I won't give the result in case you aren't watching it live.

Hurrah for www.cyclingnews.com and their play by play updates. :D

[gethen]

Thanks Gethen, as always someone else puts it more eloquently than I do.

Cracking stage today, I won't give the result in case you aren't watching it live.

Hurrah for www.cyclingnews.com and their play by play updates. :D
Yep. I watched it too. Would also have liked to see Armstrong's attempt to let his teammate take the stage be successful, but all in all, pretty exciting.

[Laser Jock]

Hurrah for www.cyclingnews.com and their play by play updates. :D

How quick are they on their updates compared to the official TDF website (http://www.letour.fr/)?

[Brady Yoon]

Lance is pretty much guaranteed to win, unless there is an accident.

http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/sports/9210999.htm?1c

[gethen]

Bawheid, quick question: How does a team or an individual qualify to ride in the Tour or the Giro or other cycling races? Does the team qualify as a whole? It appears that the team is set before the race and no substitutions are allowed after the start. Can the make up of the team vary from race to race? Guess that's more than one question. :oops:

[Bawheid]

Gethen ; Teams are invited to take part in races, the team then chooses who will ride on the basis of the course and length of race. They generally have a squad of 28 with 9 or so in each race. Once a multi day race starts there are no substitutions.

Race organisers decide how many riders they want, then how big each team should be. In the TdF they decided on 21 teams this year each of 9 riders. Their website normally explains the selection criteria but during the Tour it is all live updates in a variety of languages. Check it in a week or so. In short; they invite the team of the previous winner, the top ranked teams (UCI rankings www.uci.ch) the team that won the team prize the year before and a number of wild cards which usually go to French teams.

The wild cards allowed Bianchi in last year on this basis since Ullrich didn't qualify any other way. There is always argument about who should get these, Kelme usually get one but didn't this year because of the Manzano allegations.

The Giro is similar but they pack in Italian teams etc. One day Classics are on ranking with more teams of fewer riders.

There are exception to most of this but in general that is how it works.

It may all change next season if they go ahead with the Pro Tour, but an update will follow.

Laser Jock ; I find cyclingnews a couple of minutes quicker than any of the languages on the TdF site, bizzarely French seems the slowest. That sounds pretentious but it is straightforward to follow what is happening, even if you don't read the language. The TdF dynamic profile is good though.

I'mhaving to eat humble pie at the moment since my Father in law has money on Basso to finish on the podium, the really annoying thing is that he knows nothing about cycling. :evil:

[Bawheid]

Hmm maybe Armstrong is Le Patron after all, it was certainly a Merckx/Hinault move to chase Simeoni. (Or does he read BABBling) :o

[Wally]

Question for Bawheid (or anyone else in the know).

How do they assign finishing times? I saw in earlier stages where Armstrong and the current leader at the time were credited with the exact same finishing times. I know they didn't cross the line together. Do they assign finishing times by the pack or what??? thanks.

[Bawheid]

Wally

To avoid pushing and shoving at the finish, if riders come in together they get the same time. In the early stages where the whole peloton is together this can mean everyone gets the same time even if the cross the line 40 or 50 seconds after the winner.

If there is a gap of more than a second there should be a different time given. This can lead to situations where the peloton comes in together in a long line, someone in the middle leaves a 2 second gap, the person in front of the gap gets the winner's time and the person two seconds down gets a time 30 seconds slower.

The main exception is for riders who fall in the last kilometer who are given the time of the group they were with when they fell.

So essentially, yes, you get the time of the pack you were with. :D

[Wally]

Thank you Sir! Thought that might be the case. . .

[gethen]

Thanks, Bawheid. I'd been wondering how Armstrong had qualified when he hadn't raced those big races with the team earlier in the season, but now it makes sense.
Hope you didn't bet too much against Basso's placing on the podium.

[Donnie B.]

Okay, here's an invitation to speculate...

Assume that Armstrong were to vanish in a puff of smoke (alien abduction?) just before the finish line of the last stage. The second-place rider would then be declared the winner, presumably.

Now here's the question: would this second-place person (currently Basso) have been different if Armstrong (and the Post Office team) had not been in the race at all? That is, would any of the other riders have benefited, or been disadvantaged, by not racing against Armstrong's team?

[gethen]

I'm no expert, but I say things could conceivably have gone differently. If you enter a race knowing who is going to win, barring accident, it must affect your performance. Wouldn't other racers perhaps push themselves even harder if they knew that another spot on the podium was available and that the race was more wide open than it's been in recent years? I tend to think that in an event so physically demanding, your mental approach has to be key.
Curious what Bawheid thinks.

[Mars]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040724/en_afp/cycling_tour_fra_040724180110

This is sad, people threatening Armstrong. Sick people.

[Humphrey]

Its official, MSNBC just reported.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
He won.

[kucharek]

That's somewhat as much a surprise as Schumacher winning today in Hockenheim...

[Humphrey]

That's somewhat as much a surprise as Schumacher winning today in Hockenheim...
heh. :-)

Hell im glad he won. After what he went throught with cancer and stuff, its amazing.

[Maksutov]

WTG, Lance!

The best way to silence the unfair and biased critics: just win! If the critics keep on, especially the Eurocentric ones, well, they can yak away to each other in the dark. Performance always beats words.

And it's always good to see an freethinking champion (http://www.celebatheists.com/entries/ambiguous_0.html) on the podium too. No pointing to the sky or other carryings on, as is all-too-fashionable these days. Just giving thanks where thanks is actually due.

Bravo, Lance Armstrong!

[Donnie B.]

In the CBS TdF coverage today, Armstrong was asked about the accusations of doping that continually dog him. He pointed out that he began winning races just after a great round of doping scandals in cycling, when sensitivity to such issues was at a peak. Furthermore, he's never failed a drug test.

Then he made a statement that would sound very familiar to BABBers. He said (not verbatim, I'm afraid), "Those people [his accusers] are making an extraordinary claim. That requires extraordinary proof -- and they have no proof at all."

Is Lance a skeptic? =D>

[Bawheid]

Bravo Lance =D> =D> =D> =D> =D> =D>

Donnie B : Hard to say what would have happened without the Posties. Armstrong was the strongest rider in the strongest, best drilled team. What is important but not often mentioned is that USPS almost always finish with 9 riders and I can't think of the last tactical mistake they made.

Basso benefitted from USPS and Telekom (I'm sorry they were that for too long I can never get used to calling them T-Mobile) watching one another and he could sit in while one chased the other since he doesn't have a strong team. It also helped that there was no pressure on him as he was there to help Hamilton, one of the many who underachieved.

Without Postal, Telekom would have controlled things a lot more though I doubt if they would have been strong enough without Vinokourov (3rd last year, injured this) to run things easily. It would have been a lot more open but hard to say who would have taken advantage.

I don't know why Mayo and Heras did so little unless they are saving themselves for the Vuelta. (Tour of Spain)

Let's not forget Voeckler who got in yellow and then sweated blood to stay there. We may never hear of him again but you have to like an overachieving underdog.

Gethen : I didn't take the bet, it is part of a fantasy cycling league. I ended up mid-table so perhaps I shouldn't be asked my opinion on anything to do with cycling. :oops:

[gethen]

Way to go, Lance! It's a shame the doping scandel thing has to keep coming up. For my money, Lance Armstrong is too intelligent a man to inject illegal chemicals into his body after a life-threatening bout with cancer and all the chemotherapy it involved. Like he would risk the side effects at this point in his life. :roll: Particularly disheartening that Greg LaMonde is the source of the some of the latest accusations.

[Bob]

... Hamilton, one of the many who underachieved.

That's quite harsh. Hamilton suffered a serious back injury on the sixth stage but continued for another week before his team management withdrew him to prevent further injury. He has suffered recently with bad luck on the Tour de France (broken collarbone last year) but he remains one of the best U.S. riders.

[Bawheid]

Not harsh, simply wrong. :oops:

I was thinking through who hadn't done as well as expected and somehow forgot Hamilton's injury. You are quite right about him.

The injury is supposed to be clearing up and he should be fit for the Olympics, not sure the course will suit him though.

[kucharek]

Karlsruhe, where I live, has applied for becoming part of the route of the Tour 2005 (we already were in 1987) and now got a special invitation to the presentation of the Tour 2005 in two weeks in Paris. Chances are good.

Harald

[Bawheid]

Take the day off work and enjoy, the crowds in Germany are always huge. Is Karlsruhe to be a start or a finish?

[Bawheid]

This story is bouncing round all the cycling sites, without a denial from TdF. This sums it up in english (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2004/oct04/oct14news) more or less word for word from the Marca (http://www.marca.es/edicion/noticia/0,2458,546474,00.html) story.

[kucharek]

It's official (http://www.letour.fr/2005/presentationus/parcours.html): Karlsruhe will be the finish of a stage from Nancy (France) to Karlsruhe on 8 July 2005 (Nancy is partner city of Karlsruhe).
The next stage will start in Pforzheim, which is just a short ride from Karlsruhe.

Harald

[Bawheid]

Looks like Lance (http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2005/jan05/jan07news) is out to prove me wrong.

He is talking about doing the Classics (which he used to specialise in) and not doing any of the Grand Tours.

[kucharek]

It will be Lance's last Tour (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/more/04/18/lance.retire.ap/index.html?cnn=yes).

Though you never really know...

[Heid the Ba']

I think he is only doing this year because it is in the contract with Discovery. He looks tired of the whole thing, he wasn't fit at Flanders and hasn't done many of the races he was supposed to. Of course this just means he'll destroy the field in Georgia this week.

[crosscountry]

as the highest paid athelete ever, I suspect he'll go when the money goes.



he's good, and I look forward to him winning again, but I won't hold my breath.



GO LANCE!!!

[Heid the Ba']

Crosscountry I'm not sure he is the highest paid cyclist ever, Discovery's budget is estimated at around $8 million, to pay 28 cyclists, support etc. I have heard it said he gets 1.5 mill. There are a number of others in the 1 -1.5 mill dollar/euros bracket. His winnings will generally be split with the team. I don't know how much sponsorship he does, but people like Cipo and Ullricjh are always advertising something.

That said, the point is a good one. Discovery only fronted the money on the basis that he would do one more Tour. I still think he'll do an attempt on the Hour record (there is a thread here somewhere) and that would be worth a fair bit.

Don't despair on the winning front. Unless he does badly in Georgia this week, then worry. :D

[crosscountry]

I was talking about all his endorsements.


all of his winnings go directly to his team mates. they of course earned it.


he makes money from gatorade, subaru, discovery, and others. They total a lot.


he's the 24th highest paid athelete in the world right now at just under 20 million per year.

http://www.forbes.com/maserati/celebrities2004/093tab.html



Crosscountry I'm not sure he is the highest paid cyclist ever, Discovery's budget is estimated at around $8 million, to pay 28 cyclists, support etc. I have heard it said he gets 1.5 mill. There are a number of others in the 1 -1.5 mill dollar/euros bracket. His winnings will generally be split with the team. I don't know how much sponsorship he does, but people like Cipo and Ullricjh are always advertising something.

That said, the point is a good one. Discovery only fronted the money on the basis that he would do one more Tour. I still think he'll do an attempt on the Hour record (there is a thread here somewhere) and that would be worth a fair bit.

Don't despair on the winning front. Unless he does badly in Georgia this week, then worry. :D

[Heid the Ba']

Seems to be my day for bumping old threads so one more won't do any harm.

Anyone follow the Giro? Savoldelli from Discovery won, largely without team support. Very gutsy ride on Saturday to chase down all his competitors on a brutal mountain stage. He will be one of Armstrong's helpers in the Tour.

The bad news for Armstrong is that Ekimov is out injured, he is one of the strongest guys around and has started and finished the last 14 Tours, equalling the record. He is also their road captain and does a lot of the wheeling and dealing as well as controlling things tactically. They will probably have him in one of the cars but it isn't the same.

Ullrich is talking a good game, Basso and Cunego were disappointing in the Giro, Simoni is past his best. Interesting to see how Heras will do, if he will go for the win or save himself for another win in the Vuelta.

[Fram]

A great Giro this year, with attacks and excitement in every mountain stage, and a good young Belgian, Wim Van Huffel. 11th in overall ranking, he is just 26, but as this was his first major tour, I reckon he can grow a bit yet. He'll be in the Dauphiné Libéré and the Vuelta this year, and normally in the Tour next year.
All my respect to Rujano (spelling?) by the way, he looked like a Virenque mountain king at first (taking all the early points when no one could be bothered), but he went on to be a real climber and a real contender!

Will Valverde and Popovych be in the Tour this year?

[Heid the Ba']

I thought Rujano was Virenquing to the jersy, but he had a good go at Simoni on Saturday to try and nick second spot overall and took the stage. Di Luca was impressive, I thought of him as a classics rider, I had forgotten he won the junior Giro a few years ago.

Valverde is doing the Tour, Iles Baleares are trying to show well in it and win the Vuelta. Popovych is down to do the Tour and is being talked of as Armstrong's successor at Discovery. Telekom are talking about leaving Zabel out, though they may change that now Pettacchi has said he isn't going.

[Fram]

While on the one hand I can understand their decision that with Ullrich, Vinokourov an Kloden, there may be no more room for Zabel in the team, I feel that on the other hand such a rational decision is a profound lack of respect for one of the greatest riders of recent times (long time N° 1 on the UCI ranking).

I had never thought that Di Luca would be able to really compete for the ranking in a great tour, but he has definitely proven me wrong. And it's very good to see that you can win some of the classics and still ride a very good Giro. I hope more cyclists will follow that example, instead of focusing solely on one target (the only thing I dislike about Armstrong is indeed that he hasn't tried to be top for a whole season).

[Heid the Ba']

I think Vinokourov has the best chance of the Telekoms; has Kloden won anything in the last 4 years? I agree about Zabel, you don't have to build a team round him and he can still beat most people in a sprint. There is concern about him in the Team Time Trial though.

It will be interesting to see if Friere turns up and how fast he is. Rabobank are in a similar position, they have several people who can get a top ten, no outstanding leader, they have to find space for Dekker, if they take Friere it is all chiefs and no indians.

Note to self: Check MrBookmaker.com for the odds on Boonen for the early stages. :D

[Fram]

Early stages? I love Boonen, but it will be hard to beat McEwen!

[Bob]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0764584499/qid=1117555432/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9934030-6372949?v=glance&s=books

[Heid the Ba']

Must check that book out Bob.

Fram Don't forget Cooke, as long as Bettini doesn't paste him onto the boards again.

[Fram]

Must check that book out Bob.

Fram Don't forget Cooke, as long as Bettini doesn't paste him onto the boards again.

True, and then there's that French one who 'always' claims a stage. Nazon, I believe.

[kucharek]

Today my kids came home from school pretty happy: Due to the Tour de France coming to Karlsruhe on 8 July, there will be lots of diversions for both public and private traffic. Because of this, all schools are closed that friday. :D
I'll try to take the afternoon off and go with them for watching.

Harald