Humanoid Aliens

[Platinum Rhymer]

Do you think there are humanoid aliens out there, i think there would be but a small percentage though

[Maksutov]

Do you think there are humanoid aliens out there, i think there would be but a small percentage though

I know of one that has actually revealed himself. (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=311613#311613)

Pretty sure he's humanoid... :-k

[dvb]

They say 2 feet is more efficient than walking on 4. So in the process of evolution, I can see it being likely provided that the conditions for life are similar as they are here on earth.

[Platinum Rhymer]

yeah, bi-ped is the way to go

[Morrolan]

yeah, bi-ped is the way to go

unless you have 6 limbs. bipedal is only handy as it frees up limbs for manipulation. walking on two legs is not very efficient nor easy (as anyone trying to build a bipedal robot can attest to). i think a creature with 6 limbs of which two are freed up for manipulation will have an absolute advantage over us poor bipedalists...

[gritmonger]

Or five limbs. Elephants follow this model: four legs and a manipulator, and given their general sensibility I could see them as a contender for intelligence eventually.

[papageno]

Insects have six limbs, and can manipulate.

Rather than humanoid, I would expect insect-like aliens.

[Gullible Jones]

They couldn't be very insect-like - as size increases, exoskeletons start to become less feasible, IIRC. Large ones would also need an endoskeleton.

Remember that, in vastly different environments, organisms will probably evolve in vastly different ways. If there is intelligent life out there, expect it to bear little resemblence to anything on this planet.

[gritmonger]

It's interesting to note all of the varieties of manipulative limb out there, and what we could have ended up with just on this planet.

For bipedalism, we've got dinosaurs, kangaroos, ratites (although as contenders for intelligence I just about count them out), and birds in general.

Psitticines (however you spell "Parrots in general") are social birds, and along with ravens (Corvidae?) are given to intelligence, and interacting through their one manipulator. Three limbed? Sort of. Two legs, two wings and a manipulator (beak).

Then you've got the four-limbed bipedals: kangaroos. And koalas, if they ever got out of the trees again.

Then the five-limbed: elephants are nice contenders in this regard, with four walking legs and a manipulator. I could also see a perhaps gross version of the okapi eventually: a very long muscular tongue as a manipulator.

So, just on earth alone humanoid bipedalism probably would not be the rule; a manipulator and intelligence would appear to be the only qualifications.

[Gullible Jones]

I think this design (http://larryniven.org/puppeteer/index.html) might work... ;)

[Maksutov]

I think this design (http://larryniven.org/puppeteer/index.html) might work... ;)

Naw, one brain trying to stay ahead of the other? Destructive competition, especially if one snores. 8)

[zebo-the-fat]

I think this design (http://larryniven.org/puppeteer/index.html) might work... ;)

Naw, one brain trying to stay ahead of the other? Destructive competition, especially if one snores. 8)

The puppeteer had one brain protected by the body cavity, two necks, heads etc and three legs .... nice!

[Gullible Jones]

Yes... Having the brain inside the thorax is probably a good idea. Three legs give better stability than two, and two heads are better than one for watching one's back...

[gritmonger]

...except that for larger creatures, there is a distinct advantage to having sensory organs close to the processing center, epecially ones that have to carry a large amount of data that is crucial to making fast decisions. Unlike electric wire which carries signals rather rapidly, neurons carry signals at about a rate of 900 feet per second. Apparently even among early chordates, there was some advantage to having a large nerve cluster close to the sensory organs, hence we get "cephalization" or as my biology professor pronounced it "kephalization" or the creation of a head. with a cluster of sensory organs.

We could reasonably assume that processing in alien life would probably occur close to the sensory organ most crucial for survival. Just as we could reasonably assume it would need a manipulator of some sort.

I note that the puppeteer doesn't have a manipulator.

[Gullible Jones]

Their lips have projections which can serve as "fingers", IIRC, though I daresay they would be less effective than what we have (despite what Mr. Niven says about them).

I realize that the Pierson's Puppeteer is definitely not the best of designs; I am just using it as an example of a non-humanoid one that could work.

[dvb]

yeah, bi-ped is the way to go

unless you have 6 limbs. bipedal is only handy as it frees up limbs for manipulation. walking on two legs is not very efficient nor easy (as anyone trying to build a bipedal robot can attest to). i think a creature with 6 limbs of which two are freed up for manipulation will have an absolute advantage over us poor bipedalists...

Actually, walking on 2 legs is more efficient from an energy perspective. Us bipeds use less energy walking on 2 legs, than quadrupeds do on 4. And just because humans suck at building 2 legged machines, doesn't mean evolution isn't any good at it. We're living examples.

I also said that it would be more likely if the conditions are similar as they are here on earth for life.

For instance, on a low gravity planet, intelligent life may evolve as a flying species. In a high gravity environment, intelligent life would be more likely to evolve with multiple legs, or no legs at all similar to a slug.

Of course, we're just speculating here. :D

[gritmonger]

Their lips have projections which can serve as "fingers", IIRC, though I daresay they would be less effective than what we have (despite what Mr. Niven says about them).

I realize that the Pierson's Puppeteer is definitely not the best of designs; I am just using it as an example of a non-humanoid one that could work.
Well, yes and no. Manipulators don't usually have sensitive sensory organs near their tips- eyes in the case of puppeteers. And the previous comment about brain-in-thorax was what I was really addressing.

Like you, I'm simply trying to establish some idea of likely and less-than-likely here. Humanoid form and even bipedalism are not foregone conclusions in alien species, but life has evolved like it has because of constraints in biology: speed of transmission, data packet size, speed of recall, and other elements which figure in brain placement in relation to sensory organs.

If protection were paramount, we would indeed be a spherical thick skull with multiple projections; however, weight is a factor as well, and protection and efficiency in movement end up in conflict if your thorax is noncompressable. The same issue arises as arises with exoskeletal creatures.

[Swift]

I'm not convinced that humanoid or even bipedal is anything special, but with one datapoint you can draw any line you like through it.
Like you, I'm simply trying to establish some idea of likely and less-than-likely here. Humanoid form and even bipedalism are not foregone conclusions in alien species, but life has evolved like it has because of constraints in biology: speed of transmission, data packet size, speed of recall, and other elements which figure in brain placement in relation to sensory organs.
Another constraint to think about is heat transfer and surface volume relationships. In warm-blooded creatures, heat loss becomes an issue as the creatures gets bigger (the volume of heat generating tissue increases to the third power, but surface area for heat loss only to the second power). So bigger creatures have a slower metabolism. If they are too slow, maybe they don't have enough energy for intelligence. On the flip side, tiny warm-blooded creatures may not be big enough for big brains. I don't think these are issues for cold-blooded creatures, but then maybe their metabolism is too slow for intelligence?

(edited to fix bad grammer and bad BBCode)

[MartianMarvin]

While the Drake equation (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html) does not equate high intelligence and radio communication with humanoids (fi and fc), it seems fairly likely that such creatures would be humanoid, especially those capable of radio communication. For instance, here on Earth, despite having a wide range of intelligent creatures besides humanoids, the only creatures presently capable of radio communication are humanoid.

Since other such civilizations probably exist, it would also seem quite probable that most, if not all, are humanoid.

But I suppose we'll never know for sure, we have to find them first.

[Gullible Jones]

Uhh... why? If a species possessed intelligence and dexterity on the same level as humans, what would keep them from making a radio?

[gritmonger]

While the Drake equation (http://www.activemind.com/Mysterious/Topics/SETI/drake_equation.html) does not equate high intelligence and radio communication with humanoids (fi and fc), it seems fairly likely that such creatures would be humanoid, especially those capable of radio communication. For instance, here on Earth, despite having a wide range of intelligent creatures besides humanoids, the only creatures presently capable of radio communication are humanoid.

Since other such civilizations probably exist, it would also seem quite probable that most, if not all, are humanoid.

That's something of a, well, unusual conclusion to reach. The only criteria appear to be brain and manipulator, and there are many possible combinations of each. The winner of the race here is not likely to significantly resemble the winner of the race elsewhere, and it's a bit drastic to assume anything from a single data point.

What we can do is look at traits shared by creatures capable of problem solving; and with the exception of the dolphin, they generally manipulate their environment and are capable of modifying it or making tools. Crows, elephants, and chimpanzees all modify their environment in new ways instead of instinctively, have long lifespans and teach their children (and in some cases grandchildren), share knowledge, and all might end up, with enough time and the right pressure, turning into intelligent species. The element here is multiple data points here on earth. If all problem-solving tool makers were bipedal humanoids regardless of origin, I might be inclined to agree with you.

However, given the data, we can't even say anything about the proper size for an intelligent species much less its shape; why would humanoid be a default condition for radioastronomy? The seating?

[Platinum Rhymer]

For bipedalism, we've got dinosaurs, kangaroos, ratites (although as contenders for intelligence I just about count them out),

penguins?

there has to be humanoid aliens out there, even if they are uncommon

[Brady Yoon]

I really don't know what to believe. One side of the argument says certain physical attributes are the most appealing for intelligent life, and that all life is based upon carbon, so life may be humanoid or at least resemble animals on Earth. The other side states the many different ways life could have evolved. My feeling is that life we find will be very different.

[Platinum Rhymer]

i think earth-like planets will likely produce humanoid aliens as the dominant species

i dont know how some people can say that there would be no, zero, nada humanoid alien life out there, i think they will be uncommon but they exist

[gritmonger]

i think earth-like planets will likely produce humanoid aliens as the dominant species

i dont know how some people can say that there would be no, zero, nada humanoid alien life out there, i think they will be uncommon but they exist

It appears to me that you might be misreading things. What people disagree with is the first statement. "i[sic] think earth-like planets will likely produce humanoid aliens as the dominant species" and so on. There is no data on which to base such a conjecture. We cannot say humanoid intelligent life will be likely to develop, because we don't have any proof that that is the rule here. We have relatively intelligent and tool-using life other than us, and none of it is humanoid.

Stating an opposing viewpoint as an extreme to garner support for your own is not good practice. as in "some people can say that there would be no, zero, nada humanoid alien life out there." No one has stated that. At most people have, like me, stated that it is less than likely. Unlikely does not mean zero, nada, etc. That is a false statement of an opposing viewpoint: a "straw man."

You will find you get a better reception for your ideas and positions if you:(a) State them intelligently, succinctly, and with proper spelling, grammar, punctuation and capitalization.

(b) Avoid logical fallacies like putting up straw men, appealing to emotion, ad hominem attacks, false dillemas and so on.

(c) Have some respect for others both on the board and off.

[dvb]

It appears to me that you might be misreading things. What people disagree with is the first statement. "i[sic] think earth-like planets will likely produce humanoid aliens as the dominant species" and so on. There is no data on which to base such a conjecture. We cannot say humanoid intelligent life will be likely to develop, because we don't have any proof that that is the rule here. We have relatively intelligent and tool-using life other than us, and none of it is humanoid.

We're not living proof? :D

[Platinum Rhymer]

It appears to me that you might be misreading things. What people disagree with is the first statement. "i[sic] think earth-like planets will likely produce humanoid aliens as the dominant species" and so on. There is no data on which to base such a conjecture. We cannot say humanoid intelligent life will be likely to develop, because we don't have any proof that that is the rule here. We have relatively intelligent and tool-using life other than us, and none of it is humanoid.

We're not living proof? :D

exactly

[gritmonger]

We're not living proof? :D

Correct. We are not. We are a data point of one dot for intelligent species. If you ever try to do data analysis with a single point of data, hundreds of statisticians and insurance actuaries will rise collectively from their graves and smite you with their slide rules.

Data analysis, probability and likelihood are based on statistical analysis of data. Not datum. Given this logic, as stated above, I could confidently say that based on looking around my house all households have three bedrooms and three cats. Ergo, all houses must have one cat per bedroom. My sample size of one is completely irrefutable in the context of no other data being taken into account. But it is also very shakey logic, and extremely biased.

It is more advantageous to take a look at which species on earth have the abilities to:

(a) Compare large numbers of objects (8 or 9 objects) without a counting system. Try it sometime: look at larger and larger groups of same colored candy-coated-chocolate assembled by a friend and estimate the number without counting. Unless you start to break it up into smaller groups of smaller numbers, even humans have trouble with patternless groups over eight or nine. Crows, parrots, apes, elephants, dolphins: all score in the seven to nine range. Dogs score in the three to four.

(b) Use tools or modify their environment. Chimpanzees and crows each show spontaneous tool use and tool modification. Chimpanzees select and modify sticks to extract termites from mounds, use found objects in tests to get at target objects, and so on. Crows displayed not only tool use but tool modification: in a test to determine if a crow could select a 'better' tool, a female crow was frustrated when the male selected the bent wire and started to get at the food before she did: she took her wire and bent it the same way and got at the food. To see if it was spontaneous or a fluke, they gave here two straight wires later without the male present, and she bent the wire again.

Pack behavior, communication and hierarchical family structure are well documented in many species, intelligent and less so.

In reference to my house analogy, I could instead choose to look at how many cats were in my house when I bought it, and say instead that houses have bedrooms, and may have pets depending on the owner. That is a more reasonable and supportable statement. Saying "we are proof" is less tenable a position.

[gritmonger]

We're not living proof? :D

exactly

If that is all the proof you require, then I will state irrefutably that all houses are on cul-de-sacs, all cars are burgundy, all cats are orange, siamese or tortiseshell. I cannot be refuted, because I refuse to leave my home, or even look out my door or turn on the television.

Can you see the logical fallacy in that statement, and can you understand why a sample size of one is invalid and inherently biased?

[dvb]

We're not living proof? :D

exactly

If that is all the proof you require, then I will state irrefutably that all houses are on cul-de-sacs, all cars are burgundy, all cats are orange, siamese or tortiseshell. I cannot be refuted, because I refuse to leave my home, or even look out my door or turn on the television.

Can you see the logical fallacy in that statement, and can you understand why a sample size of one is invalid and inherently biased?

We never said that all intelligent life was humanoid either, if that's what you're implying.

[gritmonger]

We're not living proof? :D

exactly

If that is all the proof you require, then I will state irrefutably that all houses are on cul-de-sacs, all cars are burgundy, all cats are orange, siamese or tortiseshell. I cannot be refuted, because I refuse to leave my home, or even look out my door or turn on the television.

Can you see the logical fallacy in that statement, and can you understand why a sample size of one is invalid and inherently biased?

We never said that all intelligent life was humanoid either, if that's what you're implying.

Please read my initial reply to you specifically, and what I am having issue with is the position that (a) humans are intelligent and humanoid, ergo (b) humanoid intelligent life is likely.

This position is not very well supported, based solely upon us as a single point of datum, or based on viewing all other lifeforms that might be considered to have some of the requirements for intelligence.

Based upon the "living proof" argument, there is a single point. Nothing can be said about more or less likely, because there is no other reference point on the graph. Likely or unlikely are equally invalid and valid points of statement; neither is supported or refuted.

Based upon other creatures just on earth, however: we could say that humanoid intelligent life is currently dominant on earth, but that six or seven other types of life have developed intelligence that might, if given enough time and impetus, put them in the running should humanity abdicate. Among these, only apes would be considered humanoid, and really that would be something of a point of contention as they are our closest relatives: are they us, essentially: potential primate intelligence.

What we can say based upon the latter is that humanoid is one possible form of intelligent life, but that based upon the variation seen just on earth it is not likely that it is "more likely" than other shapes of intelligent life.

A supporting position for the "more likely" argument would be if all intelligent life forms on earth appeared to move towards a humanoid configuration. But that does not appear to be the case.

[aurora]

A supporting position for the "more likely" argument would be if all intelligent life forms on earth appeared to move towards a humanoid configuration. But that does not appear to be the case.

Yup.

It's the "too much Star Trek" syndrome!

Too Much Star Trek (http://members.sockets.net/~smcghee/too-much.htm)

Astronomy Students say the Strangest Things (http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/sayings.html)

[Ilya]

Astronomy Students say the Strangest Things (http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/sayings.html)

I really like this one: "The star starts out by being formed by gravity pushing being pushed back."

If you read it carefully and think about it, the statement is absolutely correct. Just incomplete and muddled beyond belief.

[Swift]

Astronomy Students say the Strangest Things (http://www.astr.ua.edu/keel/sayings.html)

I really like this one: "The star starts out by being formed by gravity pushing being pushed back."

If you read it carefully and think about it, the statement is absolutely correct. Just incomplete and muddled beyond belief.
:lol: Those were great. Some of my favorites:
When the Sun goes down, darkness illuminates the sky...
Without the Moon, the fast rotating Earth would be frantic and wet.
And this one from the professionals:
No data were taken at station D during the period 0830 to 1630 GST due to the presence of a red racer snake (Coluber constrictor) draped across the high-tension wires (33,000 V) serving the station.

[etLux]

Do you think there are humanoid aliens out there, i think there would be but a small percentage though

Not only are they out there, but a personal friend of mine did an interview with one... http://fffast.com/interviews/gubosh_1.shtml

He wasn't humanoid, though -- but, rather, described as "turkey-like".

[Platinum Rhymer]

i sagree with gritmonger but i still think there are alot of humanoid aliens out there, intelligent ones

hold up though, gritmonger are you saying that humanoid aliens are uncommon or non-existent?

[Gullible Jones]

Uhh, EtLux... You aren't serious, are you? :lol: #-o

[John Dlugosz]

...except that for larger creatures, there is a distinct advantage to having sensory organs close to the processing center, epecially ones that have to carry a large amount of data that is crucial to making fast decisions. Unlike electric wire which carries signals rather rapidly, neurons carry signals at about a rate of 900 feet per second. Apparently even among early chordates, there was some advantage to having a large nerve cluster close to the sensory organs, hence we get "cephalization" or as my biology professor pronounced it "kephalization" or the creation of a head. with a cluster of sensory organs.

We could reasonably assume that processing in alien life would probably occur close to the sensory organ most crucial for survival. Just as we could reasonably assume it would need a manipulator of some sort.

Unless the alien's nerve tissue conducted orders of magnitude faster; or it lived on a slower time scale, thinking about which way to grow roots next season.

[gritmonger]

We could reasonably assume that processing in alien life would probably occur close to the sensory organ most crucial for survival. Just as we could reasonably assume it would need a manipulator of some sort.

Unless the alien's nerve tissue conducted orders of magnitude faster; or it lived on a slower time scale, thinking about which way to grow roots next season.

Possibly, however the key would be having nervous tissue transmission speeds considerably above the norm for average local creatures. If all creatures had similar transmission speeds, there would still be an advantage to having sense-to-reaction times faster than the neighbors. Partly why we have an autonomic nervous system that pulls away from pain before we have time to really "process" it...

[gritmonger]

i sagree with gritmonger but i still think there are alot of humanoid aliens out there, intelligent ones

hold up though, gritmonger are you saying that humanoid aliens are uncommon or non-existent?

Neither. I can make no claim to either position, as we don't know if there is alien life out there, much less intelligent alien life. All of this is speculation, and so all I can speak to is likelihood; but most scientific speculation is guided by the things we know, and the things we can reasonably deduce. If we find life I think a small minority might be bipedal, and an even smaller minority might be humanoid, based on the positions I have already outlined.

But it is all speculation.

[Platinum Rhymer]

so you dont think in all the planets out there that theres not atleast one bi-ped, 2 arms, one head, a torso creature?

[R.A.F.]

I can make no claim to either position, as we don't know if there is alien life out there, much less intelligent alien life. All of this is speculation...

Yep, that's the problem with questions like this...we have only one example of intelligent life to base our discussions on...us. There "might be" intelligent humanoids out there, and there "might not be". The Universe "might be" inhabited by intelligent Tribbles for all we know using current knowledge. We won't know unless we actually discover other intelligences.

[gritmonger]

so you dont think in all the planets out there that theres not atleast one bi-ped, 2 arms, one head, a torso creature?

I'm not certain where this miscommunication is occurring, but I would like to clear it up. I have stated it several times, but now to be completely transparent:

I do not state anything about what is out there.

I state postulate and likelihood of what might be out there.

I don't think humanoid aliens are likely to be commonplace. I think that intelligence requirements are not as specific as to require our shape, size, odor, and sensory apparatus placement. Ears offset from perfectly symmetrical (as in owls) allow for more accurate distinction of sound if one cannot move one's external ears, for instance.

But no, I don't know any more than you what is out there, or even if anything is out there.

I would just hate to overlook an intelligent squid-llama-tree because I was so busy looking for green "animal women" from Orion.

[Platinum Rhymer]

yeah i get what ya saying, basically, we dont know, we dont know alien organisms, we only know whats on this planet right

but i think its safe to assume that there are humanoid aliens out there

[gritmonger]

yeah i get what ya saying, basically, we dont know, we dont know alien organisms, we only know whats on this planet right

but i think its safe to assume that there are humanoid aliens out there
How do you reach this conclusion, that humanoid aliens are safe to assume?

[Platinum Rhymer]

easy, the size of the universe and it already happened once, the odds of something evolving remotely like us are pretty good

your looking at the glass as half empty

[etLux]

Uhh, EtLux... You aren't serious, are you? :lol: #-o

Absolutely serious!

The http://fffast.com/interviews/gubosh_1.shtml interview with the alien Gubosh Rah is undoubtedly one of the most credible I have seen anywhere - bar none.

It fully explains alien abductions of human females, cattle mutilations, and even Roswell in a manner I find truthful, direct, believable, and completely supported by the known facts.

[dvb]

Hi gritmonger! :)

Instead of quoting all of your posts since my last post, I'll just write up a summary of my own ideas here. I have read and accept all the points you have made so far.

It makes sense that we should attack the likelihood of intelligent humanoid aliens with statistics. Let me throw some more numbers into our equations here first. :D

Lets take evolution on earth from a statistical point of view, and also take a look at the benefits of bipedalism over other methods of locomotion. It could equally be argued that bipedalism is an intelligent evolutionary design.

For starters, walking on 2 legs is more efficient than walking on 4. At the same time, this frees up our hands for manipulating and carrying objects. Both of these points are further discussed in the following writeup.

http://www.instant-essays.com/anthropology/bipedalism.shtml

Bipedalism The evolution of bipedalism for the...

Bipedalism The evolution of bipedalism for the early hominids was merely an adaptation to the newfound lifestyle that early man began to lead. No longer was the body adapting to better climbing and life in the trees as this species was slowly becoming a hunting and gathering population. One of the main reasons for this change is the conservation of energy. As these hominids began to spend much of their day on foot in search for food, this bipedal form of walking was adapted as it uses much less energy than the creatures that walk on all fours. The mechanics of bipedal movement was simply a more energy efficient act, but at the same time, this posture decreased the direct exposure to the sun, keeping the individual cooler, and ultimately saving even more energy. Also, as an advantage to hunting and gathering, hominids were now tall and could reach things and have a better and taller view of the surroundings. This provided a huge advantage over the predators of their time. Two additional advantages of bipedal locomotion is the allowance of two limbs whose purpose was solely to carry or transport possessions. Whether this is food or wood or whatever it may have been, hominids could now carry just about anything for long distances. This freedom of the arms and hands also allowed an easier and better solution to taking care of the young. All of these reasons show the advantages of bipedalism.

Secondly, lets not forget about the neandrathols. Although they are extinct now, they were intelligent humanoids, and had the same abilities as humans. That now gives us 2 data points to work with.

I consider intelligent bipedalism to be likely for the above reasons. Had we not evolved in the way that we did, I don't think we would be as intelligent as we are today. Our intelligence comes from being able to deal with many situations using the tools that we have. If we didn't have hands, we couldn't make tools. If we couldn't make tools, then we wouldn't be able to deal with ever more complex situations. As our tools became more complex, so did our situations, and our intelligence grew out of that.

It is my opinion that in order for life to become more intelligent, it must be both energy efficient in design, and posses a good level of locomotion without hindering its ability to manipulate its surroundings. In other words, 2 legs, not 3 or 4 or 6. :)

[Gullible Jones]

Humans could get along equally well with an extra set of legs. It's not absolutely necessary for all organisms to have 4 limbs - insects get by with 6, for example, and arachnids with 8.

And the Neanderthals shared a very recent common ancestor with humans, and weren't really around long enough to evolve along a very different path from humans. Plus, they lived in the same sort of environment as humans - remember that a planet doesn't have to be even close to Earthlike to support life! - so I don't think that they provide very much evidence for the humanoid form being a common one among intelligent organisms in general.

[dvb]

Humans could get along equally well with an extra set of legs. It's not absolutely necessary for all organisms to have 4 limbs - insects get by with 6, for example, and arachnids with 8.

4 legs would be cool wouldn't it? :)

The point I was making is that it is more efficient to walk on 2 legs. An intelligent evolutionary design in my opinion. Spiders aren't all that smart either.

And the Neanderthals shared a very recent common ancestor with humans, and weren't really around long enough to evolve along a very different path from humans. Plus, they lived in the same sort of environment as humans - remember that a planet doesn't have to be even close to Earthlike to support life! - so I don't think that they provide very much evidence for the humanoid form being a common one among intelligent organisms in general.

I whole heartedly agree with you here. I should have made reference to my previous posts in the last one.

If the conditions were similar to earth for life on another planet, then I believe intelligent life would evolve similar to how it is here.

[Gullible Jones]

Maybe. Just remember that there are many forms other than the humanoid one which would work perfectly well in the niche which humans originaly occupied...

[Platinum Rhymer]

i still think bi-ped is the best one for our type of planet

[gritmonger]

Hi gritmonger! :)

Instead of quoting all of your posts since my last post, I'll just write up a summary of my own ideas here. I have read and accept all the points you have made so far.

It makes sense that we should attack the likelihood of intelligent humanoid aliens with statistics. Let me throw some more numbers into our equations here first. :D

Lets take evolution on earth from a statistical point of view, and also take a look at the benefits of bipedalism over other methods of locomotion. It could equally be argued that bipedalism is an intelligent evolutionary design.

For starters, walking on 2 legs is more efficient than walking on 4. At the same time, this frees up our hands for manipulating and carrying objects. Both of these points are further discussed in the following writeup.

http://www.instant-essays.com/anthropology/bipedalism.shtml

Bipedalism The evolution of bipedalism for the...

Bipedalism The evolution of bipedalism for the early hominids was merely an adaptation to the newfound lifestyle that early man began to lead. No longer was the body adapting to better climbing and life in the trees as this species was slowly becoming a hunting and gathering population. One of the main reasons for this change is the conservation of energy. As these hominids began to spend much of their day on foot in search for food, this bipedal form of walking was adapted as it uses much less energy than the creatures that walk on all fours. The mechanics of bipedal movement was simply a more energy efficient act, but at the same time, this posture decreased the direct exposure to the sun, keeping the individual cooler, and ultimately saving even more energy. Also, as an advantage to hunting and gathering, hominids were now tall and could reach things and have a better and taller view of the surroundings. This provided a huge advantage over the predators of their time. Two additional advantages of bipedal locomotion is the allowance of two limbs whose purpose was solely to carry or transport possessions. Whether this is food or wood or whatever it may have been, hominids could now carry just about anything for long distances. This freedom of the arms and hands also allowed an easier and better solution to taking care of the young. All of these reasons show the advantages of bipedalism.

Secondly, lets not forget about the neandrathols. Although they are extinct now, they were intelligent humanoids, and had the same abilities as humans. That now gives us 2 data points to work with.

I consider intelligent bipedalism to be likely for the above reasons. Had we not evolved in the way that we did, I don't think we would be as intelligent as we are today. Our intelligence comes from being able to deal with many situations using the tools that we have. If we didn't have hands, we couldn't make tools. If we couldn't make tools, then we wouldn't be able to deal with ever more complex situations. As our tools became more complex, so did our situations, and our intelligence grew out of that.

It is my opinion that in order for life to become more intelligent, it must be both energy efficient in design, and posses a good level of locomotion without hindering its ability to manipulate its surroundings. In other words, 2 legs, not 3 or 4 or 6. :)

Energy efficiency slices both ways- and bipedalism is less efficient for carrying, standing for long periods, pushing and pulling, and for lone animals. The circumstance for injury is higher with greater consequence for losing footing on one limb. Those animals that are bipedal and live in rocky terrain are either flighted or have very very large feet that they do not move independantly, and hence have no need for coordination. Exceptions are penguins on rocky coasts, but then rockhoppers are not known for being graceful. Depending upon local gravity conditions (should they be higher than our local gravity), the dangers from bipedalism might outweigh any energy efficiency.

I will forgo the neandertal argument, as GullibleJones has already addressed it.

The "cause" for bipedalism as cited in the above quote is conjecture, and not established fact; other reasons have been posited as well, such as the meerkat habit of wanting to see farther in the savannah, which has its own consequences for foraging times for animals living in group and also has bearing on energy efficiency. A lone ostrich has to spend roughly 30% of its time watching for predators in order to survive. When in a group, this drops to 10% as each watches out for the other. Baboons, meerkats, prarie dogs, and even beavers have been known to carry things in a bipedal manner, not because of energy efficiency, but because it is the only way they can carry things and walk at the same time. If anything, it was the only way for animals with only four limbs to gather forage from bushes and collect resources from distant points in the relatively open savannah. It just as well might have grown out of necessity.

As far as energy efficiency, humans are very inefficient. We waste a lot of energy and are inefficient at standing for long periods (lock your knees and faint, don't lock them and get a bad back) We wear out quickly, are subject to injuries from falls on the arguably most important part of our anatomy: our heavy heads. Efficiency would argue for a bipedalism with a less energy intensive rest state.

[Platinum Rhymer]

i got a question, is it possible for a creature to both bi-ped and 4-legged?

[Gullible Jones]

No. "Bipedal" means "2-legged". [Edit: okay, it means "2-footed", but the basic concept would be the same.]

Then again, maybe chimpanzees could be considered both bipedal and quadrupedal...

[gritmonger]

i got a question, is it possible for a creature to both bi-ped and 4-legged?
Nearest I can think of offhand is the Hoatzin chick, which has hooklike protrusions on the "finger" and "thumb" area of its wings.
http://birds.cornell.edu/homestudy/QUIZ_Q1.html
It can climb as a four-legged animal when young, but technically is a biped.

Beavers as well- they spend a lot of time on all fours, but perhaps a similar amount of time on two legs, whether it's simply to gnaw at trees, or in some cases carry objects.

"Beavers have also been observed walking on their hind [feet], carrying a bundle of twigs in their arms."
http://brainmuseum.org/Specimens/rodentia/beaver/index.html

[dvb]

gritmonger, you make some very good points! :D

If I only knew as much as you do about this stuff, I may be able to argue it better, but it seems I don't. #-o

[gritmonger]

gritmonger, you make some very good points! :D

If I only knew as much as you do about this stuff, I may be able to argue it better, but it seems I don't. #-o

No big deal- it never hurts to put forward a hypothesis and argue both, one, or any side. It's how people learn - how I learned anyway.

I got a BS in general biology, and I've been into this kind of stuff since I was a kid.:)

[dvb]

gritmonger, you make some very good points! :D

If I only knew as much as you do about this stuff, I may be able to argue it better, but it seems I don't. #-o

No big deal- it never hurts to put forward a hypothesis and argue both, one, or any side. It's how people learn - how I learned anyway.

I got a BS in general biology, and I've been into this kind of stuff since I was a kid.:)

Agreed. We can't learn if we don't accept our mistakes.

[Platinum Rhymer]

aw naw they got you on their side too dvb lol

am i the only on here that thinks there are humanoid aliens out there

[dvb]

aw naw they got you on their side too dvb lol

am i the only on here that thinks there are humanoid aliens out there

lol

No body said that humanoid aliens couldn't exist. Just that it's not as likely as we may think. :D

[Platinum Rhymer]

No body said that humanoid aliens couldn't exist. Just that it's not as likely as we may think. :D

yeah, i guess so

[Ilya]

Bipedalism can only exist if the body plan is four-limbed. Free up two limbs for manipulation. Okay, I admit the possibility of a six-limbed creature standing on two "legs" and using four "arms", but think that a centauroid design is a much more likely outcome. So the question is - how likely is the four-limbed body plan?

On Earth it is actually NOT very likely - only vertebrates are four-limbed. But they are four-limbed for a very good reason: two pairs of fins plus tail are ideal for a fast-swimming fish which moves by undulating its body. All really fast swimmers on Earth are fish or squid. Squid move by jet propulsion, and are radially symmetrical. Fish are bilaterally symmetrical and have perfect fin arrangement for their propulsion mode. Whales, dolphins, and pinnipeds are good but not excellent swimmers - none are as fast as fish of the same size. Partly that's because they undulate up and down instead of side to side, but also because their finnage is incomplete - whales do not have rear fins, seals do not have a real tail.

So if an intelligent alien hails from a phylum with articulated internal skeleton, it will probably be four-limbed/bipedal. Evolution of its remote aquatic ancestors will see to it. But if its body plan involves exoskeleton, or no skeleton, or (like squid and cuttlefish) single inflexible internal truss, then it may have a lot of limbs - and not necessarily even be bilaterally symmetric.

BTW, human spine is, in my opinion, one of the best arguments against Intelligent Design. For an upright biped, it is hard to come up with a WORSE design than precarious stack of bones with neural tube running INSIDE it. It is ridiculously easy to injure (much more so than in a quadruped), and many injuries lead to paralysis or death. A single thick bone similar to thigh bone would work much better, and if neural tube were UNDER it, then even breaking this backbone would not be catastrophic. But flexible stack works perfectly for a fish, so we inherited it - to provide income for chiropractors and neural surgeons.

[Morrolan]

gritmonger excellent points! =D>

i would like to add that other points that influence development of species and size are the composition of the atmosphere. for instance: the breathing apparatus of insects limits their size (aside from the exoskeleton), but a higher oxygen level in Earth's atmosphere in the past made much larger insects possible then today. i'm just speculating here of course, but maybe if the oxygen levels had remained high or had increased even further there is a possibility that larger and more verocious insects could have prevented the evolution of larger mammals or reptiles, thus effectively preventing 'us'. :o

we'll never know...

[Platinum Rhymer]

so, what are you saying Ilya?

humanoid design is a very bad design?

[Excelsior]

Biped aliens are possible since being biped has some advantages. But humonoid aliens are very very unlikely. The chances of aliens having features like dual eyes, two years, nose etc is next to impossible.

[Swift]

...
If the conditions were similar to earth for life on another planet, then I believe intelligent life would evolve similar to how it is here.
But even in that case, and even if it was bipedal, it doesn't mean it has to be humanoid. What about if on Earth the big rock didn't wipe out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago and they had more time to evolve. Maybe the intelligent life on Earth now would be bipedal velocoraptors?

As far as how bad the "design" of humans is, I agree, there is room for improvement. There was a Scientific American article several years ago (sorry, couldn't google it up) that talked about improvements to human design including: the spine, improving the knees, and improving the digestive track (appendix).

[dvb]

...
If the conditions were similar to earth for life on another planet, then I believe intelligent life would evolve similar to how it is here.
But even in that case, and even if it was bipedal, it doesn't mean it has to be humanoid. What about if on Earth the big rock didn't wipe out the dinosaurs 65 million years ago and they had more time to evolve. Maybe the intelligent life on Earth now would be bipedal velocoraptors?

Good points, and points taken! :)

IIRC, most (all?) bipedal dinosaurs didn't make much use of their upper limbs either. At least this was the case for the tyrannosaurus. Some major evolutionary changes would have to be made for them to get any use out of their upper limbs to be able to manipulate objects in the same manner as humans. They weren't exactly at the top of the list for intelligence either. ;)

According to the following definition of humanoid though, it appears that nearly any bipedal animal would qualify.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanoid

The term "humanoid" refers to any being whose body structure resembles that of a human. In this sense, the term describes Neanderthals and most non-human primates. The term is often used in the context of science fiction and fantasy fiction, where it usually refers to a humanoid creature, whether it be natural or robotic (i.e. an android), and is usually sentient.

Usually, a fictional humanoid species has the same basic body outline as a human, being bipedal, but differs in details such as coloring, ear form, presence of hair, average height and weight, size of nose, form of skin, "extras" such as horns, plates, claws, tails or multiple appendages, and taxonomic lineage (being descended from reptiles, fish, rodents, marsupials, or a phylum not evolved on Earth, perhaps, instead of primates). Reptilian humanoids are a common conceit.

Most of the aliens in television and movies are humanoid, since it is easier for a fictional character to be a disguised human actor. However, there are various methods for presenting non-humanoid characters, for example computer graphics, creative costuming, and puppetry.

Some fans find that it rings false to have a universe populated by creatures that look human, although other people (including some biologists) believe a species would naturally drift towards bipedalism when achieving sapience as we know it (e.g. Russell's troödon-descended sapient). Occasionally, shows present a reason for this to be the case. For example, the episode "The Chase" of Star Trek: The Next Generation explained the humanoid denizens of the Star Trek universe by advancing the story of a primordial humanoid civilization, the Progenitors, that seeded the galaxy with genetically-engineered cells that guide evolution toward humanoid life. In most cases, however, the reason for the similarity is not explained, and it is regarded simply as a dramatic convention.

The examples in the last paragraph are speculation of course, but you get the idea. ;)

[Ilya]

so, what are you saying Ilya?

humanoid design is a very bad design?

No. What I am saying is:

a) bipedal design (and I include intelligent Velociraptor in that definition) is a likely outcome from the "swimmer with internal skeleton" start

b) it is an extremely unlikely outcome starting from any other aquatic body plan

c) evolution does not create perfect designs, but adapts existing structures for new purposes (e.g. swim bladder becoming lung). In some cases the old structure is so badly suited for new conditions (e.g. fish spine for an upright land walker), no amount of adaptation will make it more than a kludge; truly appropriate solution would be a fundamentally different body plan, and evolution seems incapable of making such a radical change

[Ilya]

IIRC, most (all?) bipedal dinosaurs didn't make much use of their upper limbs either. At least this was the case for the tyrannosaurus. Some major evolutionary changes would have to be made for them to get any use out of their upper limbs to be able to manipulate objects in the same manner as humans. They weren't exactly at the top of the list for intelligence either. ;)

Sorry, no. Tyrannosaur did not use its upper limbs much, but other bipedal dinosaurs did, both herbivorous and carnivorous. As for intelligence... bones of very large herbivors were found with velociraptor tooth marks. That strongly implies the latter were pack hunters. Cooperative group action requires quite a bit of intelligence - note that all pack hunters in existence today are (fairly smart) mammals or (very smart) birds.

[Wally]

Biped aliens are possible since being biped has some advantages. But humonoid aliens are very very unlikely. The chances of aliens having features like dual eyes, two years, nose etc is next to impossible.

I tend to lean towards dvb's thinking here. Just take a look at all the more advanced species (including reptiles, etc.) here on earth. They all tend to have the same basic facial structure (2 eyes. Nose in between, above the mouth. Ears off to either side), regardless of other differences. This has to be the result of natural selection, which one would expect to carry over to any planet harboring advanced life forms. At least those living on dry land anyways. . .

[Ilya]

Just take a look at all the more advanced species (including reptiles, etc.) here on earth. They all tend to have the same basic facial structure (2 eyes. Nose in between, above the mouth. Ears off to either side), regardless of other differences.

I would say octopi and squids are MORE advanced than reptiles. Certainly smarter. But they too have two eyes and the mouth near the brain. Of course, their manipulative appendages are arranged around the mouth...

This has to be the result of natural selection, which one would expect to carry over to any planet harboring advanced life forms. At least those living on dry land anyways. . .

Yes and no. The selection for the features you mentioned happened BEFORE dry land - fish have them, and land vertebrates inherited them. But yes, there are definite advanteges to having sense organs clustered in the forward section, and to have the brain as close to them as possible. But "having a definable head" does not make a humanoid. Lobster has the same arrangement :) Please see my above posts for the likelyhood of four limbs/two legs.

[Platinum Rhymer]

so Ilya, do YOU think there are humanoid aliens out there humanoid in terms of having 2 legs, 2 arms, a torso, a head?

[Ilya]

so Ilya, do YOU think there are humanoid aliens out there humanoid in terms of having 2 legs, 2 arms, a torso, a head?

Yes.

What proportion of intelligent aliens are built that way, my guess is... less than 50%, more than 1%.

[Platinum Rhymer]

so anywhere from 49% to 2%?

any chances of humanoid alien races similar to us in structure and chemistry but are a bit bigger possesing greater speed, strength, quickness, agility, power, etc?

[R.A.F.]

any chances of humanoid alien races similar to us in structure and chemistry but are a bit bigger possesing greater speed, strength, quickness, agility, power, etc?

...And perhaps the name of their home planet is Krypton? :lol:

[gzhpcu]

Parallel or convergent evolution is a possible explanation for the humanoid appearance of UFO occupants.

There are certain directions in which life tends to evolve due to the constraints imposed by the (presumably) universal laws of physics, chemistry and biology.
For example, whales and fish have some similar characteristics since both had to evolve methods of moving through the same medium: water.
Convergent evolution is a powerful concept that advocates for evolution leading to broadly similar biological propeties


Parallel evolution occurs when two species evolve independently of each other, maintaining the same level of similarity. Parallel evolution usually occurs between unrelated species that do not occupy the same or similar niches in a given habitat.

Convergent evolution is a powerful concept that advocates for evolution leading to broadly similar biological propeties

[gritmonger]

Parallel or convergent evolution is a possible explanation for the humanoid appearance of UFO occupants.

There are certain directions in which life tends to evolve due to the constraints imposed by the (presumably) universal laws of physics, chemistry and biology.
For example, whales and fish have some similar characteristics since both had to evolve methods of moving through the same medium: water.
Convergent evolution is a powerful concept that advocates for evolution leading to broadly similar biological propeties


Parallel evolution occurs when two species evolve independently of each other, maintaining the same level of similarity. Parallel evolution usually occurs between unrelated species that do not occupy the same or similar niches in a given habitat.

Convergent evolution is a powerful concept that advocates for evolution leading to broadly similar biological propeties

It's not really evolution with direction, but constraints placed on evolution by physical properties. Movement through water is easier for particular shapes for solid inflexible bodies moving at high speed. Movement through air is best achieved with large surface area to mass ratios. Non-infinite speed of transmission favors fast resolution of input signals; whether it's autonomics or brain close to complex sensors.

These are physical properties that constrain the boundaries of what is possible with what is effective, and so it happens that given random evolution the same solution will arise more than once. The head. The wing. The hydrodynamic form. But you'll also note the solutions, while "convergent," are not always the same. Arthropods have joints, a head, and in some cases wings, but their "solutions" are vastly different in detail from those of a bat, which has many of the same "convergent" features. While many wing shapes are similar, the material, method, and resiliency of each is quite different. There are feathered, bat-winged, rib-winged, fin-winged, carapace-winged and even leaf-winged (thinking maple trees here).

The constraints on intelligence, as near as we can determine, are not nearly so clear-cut with regard to body shape or configuration. The primary requirement appears to be a complex brain and rich sensory input. Even a manipulator is questionable as a requirement, as dolphins do not have nearly as dexterous an appendage as say elephants, squids, or humans. The convergence would probably be in manipulators and brain function, so beyond that their physical properties would be determined by their environmental variables regarding effective locomotion, heat transferrence, and so on.

[edited once for spelling]

[gzhpcu]

there's no reason why separately evolved species based on the same genetic template should diverge too radically. Author Isaac Asimov argued that the basic human frame--two legs and arms with a head--is a practical shape with lots of room for deviation

[gritmonger]

there's no reason why separately evolved species based on the same genetic template should diverge too radically. Author Isaac Asimov argued that the basic human frame--two legs and arms with a head--is a practical shape with lots of room for deviation

But by the same token, there's no reason why a humanoid biped would necessarily be intelligent, or why a biped based more on the dinosaur design could not be intelligent. It would still balance on two legs, have two free for manipulation, and have an advantage in balance and turning. Nor is there a compelling reason why squidlike, elephantlike, and so on shapes could not be intelligent.

You see what I'm driving at? One solution to "grasper" and "brain" is not the solution for all, and given those rather loose constraints allows for a lot of body types.

[Platinum Rhymer]

any chances of humanoid alien races similar to us in structure and chemistry but are a bit bigger possesing greater speed, strength, quickness, agility, power, etc?

anybody?

[Musashi]

Sure, why not?

[Gullible Jones]

Parallel or convergent evolution is a possible explanation for the humanoid appearance of UFO occupants.

How do we even know that these aliens exist? How do we know that UFOs are aliens spacecraft, as opposed to natural phenomena, false memories, illusions, hoaxes, or just ordinary flying objects that no one identified properly? Why would they all look like Martians from cheesy 50's movies?

[Ilya]

any chances of humanoid alien races similar to us in structure and chemistry but are a bit bigger possesing greater speed, strength, quickness, agility, power, etc?

All these things require food, especially when the organism grows. If an animal is too big for local food supply, it starves - or its offspring starve. Same thing if it has too much muscle mass ("strong") or too fast metabolism ("quick"). Our ancestors evolved to match available food - keep in mind that growth of a large brain requires incredible amount of food. Human child needs more food than a cougar kitten.

I actually had thought about this matter from the viewpoint of genetic engineering. Many people think that human body is already perfectly designed, and any possible "improvement" would lead to a disaster. But it is not "perfectly designed" - it is perfectly balanced between demands of hunter-gatherer life and available limited resources. There is a lot of room for improvement in a human body - faster, stronger, quicker-healing, stronger bones, etc. - but they all require added caloric intake. The beauty is that modern society is no longer limited in its calorie intake - if anything, too many people eat too much. I suggest you read "Drakon" by S.M.Stirling. He describes a race of genetically engineered supermen - Homo drakensis, - who are physically immensely superior to ordinary Homo sapiens. The drawback is the drakensis must eat at least 7,000 calories a day, and without food can starve to death in less than a week. But in an industrial society that's rarely a problem. (The fact that drakensis stomach is bioengineered to handle anything a hyena can handle also makes starvation unlikely.)

So to answer your original question - yes it's possible, but only in an ecosystem where a) food is more abundant than on African savannah, and b) competition is really vicious. African rain forest is a rather benign, food-rich environment, hence gorillas can grow big as, well, gorillas, but they have no natural predators and no need for big brains.

So even shorter answer - yes, but only where everything is bigger, faster, and more vicious. If I ever met a naturally-evolved alien anywhere close to S.M.Stirling's drakensis, I WOULD NOT want a stroll on its native planet. Just think of what predator it evolved to avoid...

[Morrolan]

I suggest you read "Drakon" by S.M.Stirling. He describes a race of genetically engineered supermen - Homo drakensis, - who are physically immensely superior to ordinary Homo sapiens. The drawback is the drakensis must eat at least 7,000 calories a day, and without food can starve to death in less than a week. But in an industrial society that's rarely a problem. (The fact that drakensis stomach is bioengineered to handle anything a hyena can handle also makes starvation unlikely.)

So to answer your original question - yes it's possible, but only in an ecosystem where a) food is more abundant than on African savannah, and b) competition is really vicious. African rain forest is a rather benign, food-rich environment, hence gorillas can grow big as, well, gorillas, but they have no natural predators and no need for big brains.

So even shorter answer - yes, but only where everything is bigger, faster, and more vicious. If I ever met a naturally-evolved alien anywhere close to S.M.Stirling's drakensis, I WOULD NOT want a stroll on its native planet. Just think of what predator it evolved to avoid...

that is actually an excellent, if disturbing series of books. Stirling describes an alternate reality from our own, based on a radically different history after the US Civil War. the biological, social, cultural and especially ethical differences between homo drakensis' society and ours are fascinating.

the first book in the series is called Marching through Georgia and starts in 1941, when the Draka invade Georgia (USSR) in their fight against Nazi Germany.

[Platinum Rhymer]

So even shorter answer - yes, but only where everything is bigger, faster, and more vicious. If I ever met a naturally-evolved alien anywhere close to S.M.Stirling's drakensis, I WOULD NOT want a stroll on its native planet. Just think of what predator it evolved to avoid...

thats true, i am going to have to check that book out

[gzhpcu]

Parallel or convergent evolution is a possible explanation for the humanoid appearance of UFO occupants.

How do we even know that these aliens exist? How do we know that UFOs are aliens spacecraft, as opposed to natural phenomena, false memories, illusions, hoaxes, or just ordinary flying objects that no one identified properly? Why would they all look like Martians from cheesy 50's movies?

Of course, we do not know they exist. Just speculating, that if they did exist, it might not be incredible that they have some similarities to humanoids...

[Doe, John]

Stirling describes an alternate reality from our own, based on a radically different history after the US Civil War. the biological, social, cultural and especially ethical differences between homo drakensis' society and ours are fascinating.

nitpick. The actual divergance began after the American Revolutionary War when the Hessian mercenaries and British sympathizers were relocated to what is now South Africa and was then the Dutch Boer colony. I remember something in the second book, I think it was, about Draka steam-powered ironclads running the union Blockade, so technology, at least, had diverged considerably by that point.

[Platinum Rhymer]

i looked into this drakon novel, i dont get are drakons humans?, because they look human, exactly like humans, they possess superhuman physical abilites and they are more vicious and fierce

[Morrolan]

Stirling describes an alternate reality from our own, based on a radically different history after the US Civil War. the biological, social, cultural and especially ethical differences between homo drakensis' society and ours are fascinating.

nitpick. The actual divergance began after the American Revolutionary War when the Hessian mercenaries and British sympathizers were relocated to what is now South Africa and was then the Dutch Boer colony. I remember something in the second book, I think it was, about Draka steam-powered ironclads running the union Blockade, so technology, at least, had diverged considerably by that point.

yikes! :o you're right.. sorry, got my history mixed up there. the Domination was indeed set up from that period... my bad. #-o

[Morrolan]

i looked into this drakon novel, i dont get are drakons humans?, because they look human, exactly like humans, they possess superhuman physical abilites and they are more vicious and fierce

yes, the Draka are human, however raised from young and ultimately bioengineered to be more than that. the penultimate Übermensch. 8-[

i think Ilya was using them as an example how a super-humanoid intelligence could only evolve in an energy-rich environment.

that said, the books are a good if disturbing read anyway...

[Platinum Rhymer]

oh i thought they were aliens from another planet

so a race like drakans exist (as aliens on other planets i mean)?

[Musashi]

no

[Platinum Rhymer]

so a race like drakans exist (as aliens on other planets i mean)?

anybody?

[Gullible Jones]

The existance of a race of alien "super-humans" is unlikely in the extreme.

Edit: Well, maybe it would be possible if they came from a high-gravity planet, but then they probably would not look so humanoid!

[Musashi]

so a race like drakans exist (as aliens on other planets i mean)?

anybody?

Maybe. That is the best anyone can say, what more do you want?

[Platinum Rhymer]

Maybe. That is the best anyone can say, what more do you want?

maybe?, maybe is good enough for me, just as long there is a possibility

[Musashi]

Why?

[Platinum Rhymer]

just because

[Platinum Rhymer]

hey, for an alien species to be tall and big does the planet have to be farther or closer to the star

[Musashi]

either would work.

[freddo]

Answer = Data Insufficient to Provide Answer.

[Platinum Rhymer]

oh, either

[Wally]

A smaller planet would probably tend to lead to taller life forms (lesser gravity to overcome). Of course, you could also speculate they would be weaker due to the same reason. Maybe we should be on the lookout for tall, weak aliens or short, strong ones. . .

[Platinum Rhymer]

i think there could be some tall, strong ones too

[dvb]

i think there could be some tall, strong ones too

Or purple flying elephants.

Truth is, we don't know. We can speculate all we want, and in this case, anything is possible, so nothing can be discounted.

[Platinum Rhymer]

lol yeah basically

[ToSeek]

hey, for an alien species to be tall and big does the planet have to be farther or closer to the star

I think the planet's gravity would be the most significant factor. not the distance to its sun.

[Platinum Rhymer]

is it possible for an alien race to transform? like transform to something different for a period of time then go back to its original form?

[Musashi]

Sure, why not? As long as we are making stuff up, that doesn't seem too difficult.

[electromagneticpulse]

theres glasses that can do it, why not aliens :D

[Platinum Rhymer]

for real?

and Mushashi, why do you have a grudge against me, it seems like you hate me for some reason

[electromagneticpulse]

well lizards grow back their tails, it could possibly be a form of this. If the life evolved on a highly changing planet this could be a survival method to keep it ahead of the game so to speak. Changing in a couple of seconds wouldn't happen it would have to grow into it but it would be quicker then evolution by millions of years. If the organisor cells where linked with the brain the body would be able to adapt to how the brain wanted the body to be.

[Platinum Rhymer]

that is so cool man, and can't a chamillion (sp?) change colors? so i guess it is possible

[Musashi]

I don't hate you, I just think you ask strange questions that don't have any real answers.

[Platinum Rhymer]

how can this not have a real answer, i asked if something can transform for a period of time and go back to its original form, yet electromagneticpulse answered it

[Musashi]

Is it possible that aliens could have lasers that shoot from their fingertips and be able to lift fifty tons with one hand and run 200 mph for days without resting?

[Gullible Jones]

Not unless their metabolism involves deuterium, with helium as a waste product... :P

[Platinum Rhymer]

no, but it is possible for aliens to have superhuman physical abilities such as strength, speed, stamina, quickness, etc, AND generate chi/ki btw your a smartass

[Musashi]

Are you sure, I mean, we are talking about aliens here, maybe they use alien elements? ;)

[Platinum Rhymer]

i think its possible if their planet has more gravity

[Musashi]

The lasers too?

What about an alien that can travel through hyperspace?

[Platinum Rhymer]

well maybe not lasers but chi/ki, like tai chi X 1000 or something

[Musashi]

why not lasers? I like lasers.

[Platinum Rhymer]

well maybe in some other quasi-verse where the physical laws are different, why dont you try going there, and leave here :evil:

[Stinger]

Maybe there are aliens, maybe even humanoid ones, but then again, maybe not. We might land on a planet with silicon-based life and not even recognize it for what it is. It's also possible that alien life could be something like Clarke's intelligent blimps that inhabit the atmosphere of a Jupiter-type planet or an aquatic species that live in an alien ocean. If this ocean was covered by ice, it's possible these "beings" are unaware of the universe around them. Speculation is fun but don't take it too seriously because the truth often times is a lot less "cool" than the imagination. There's a good chance that if/when we meet ET, they'll be just like us .. with all our curiosities, dreams, fears, virtues, and flaws.

[Musashi]

well maybe in some other quasi-verse where the physical laws are different, why dont you try going there, and leave here :evil:
Why? Why would the laws have to be different? Couldn't they have evolved natural lasers? There are animals that emit light, all I am talking about is an upgraded version of that. Maybe they could only do it once in a while, or maybe it would be a death shot, that they could only use once because it killed them. Why should I have to leave? I am just asking questions. Don't you think that it is possible that there are aliens with lasers? How about hyperdimensional travel? Like the Navigators from Dune?

[Platinum Rhymer]

well you said you wanted some laser beams shooting off from fingertips, maybe if you travelled to a quasi-verse where that is possible, it was just a suggestion

[electromagneticpulse]

why not lasers? I like lasers.

well their is glow bugs, grow them 1000 times larger and make it so their light comes out of their :roll: rectum... and you could have yourself a laser.
They could be like cockroaches and have a uranium power source :wink:

[Platinum Rhymer]

i love glowbugs, glowing humanoid aliens?

[electromagneticpulse]

possibly, deep water fish produce fluorescent like light through chemical reactions, so its safe to assume that an alien race would be able to aswell. It could just store the chemicals in glands and could release different chemicals to make different light colours through different mixs of them.
I still think a uranium power source would be a good idea :lol:

[Platinum Rhymer]

now that is some cool and crazy ish!, imagine a humanoid thats like that with all this superhuman strength, speed, agility, etc, thats my alien race right there! :P

[Richard of Chelmsford]

Actually, do you think it's possible that aliens could have tapped into our cyber-network, and are actually on this site? :-?

If so, who would you take to be an alien?

or would you own up if you were?

Come on, Gullible..
Platinum..
Cougar..
Irishman..

Even (dare I say it) The BA.

Is it any of you?

And no, it's not me, though in some senses I'd be called an 'alien' in the States, just as a foreigner.

Though I do qualify as a 'dude' don't I....DUDE 19th century word for an Eastener, or an Englishman.

But I digress.. 8-[

[Platinum Rhymer]

what the helll? :lol:

i wouldnt be shocked if there are some aliens disguised as humans

[DoktorGreg]

test

Whoops sorry I was having trouble loggin on...

[Morrolan]

... :lol: edited text

PR: with all due respect, but using bad language in the form of abbreviations is considered the same as typing it out in full. i suggest you edit the text.

[edited]

[Platinum Rhymer]

gotcha

[Morrolan]

gotcha

no worries. good on ya, mate... :)

[genebujold]

They say 2 feet is more efficient than walking on 4. So in the process of evolution, I can see it being likely provided that the conditions for life are similar as they are here on earth.

If so, why are we the only mammals on the planet who use bipedal locomotion?

Hint - for non-self-lethal animals, this is the case. We need our arms to carry our tools...

[Platinum Rhymer]

well the only prescient beings on the planet are bi-ped, so

[Musashi]

What about dolphins?

[electromagneticpulse]

Some apes are semi-bipedal, birds are bipedal, penguins are bipedal... sorry i just needed to mention them as they cant fly :cry:

Anyway it appears that sextopeds (animals with 6 limbs) are ineffective as a large animal. Probably as it would require too much mass to be carried while still being able to defend itself so never able to evolve to have manipulators. Also it would have to be fast enough to catch pray to get meat to develop a concious brain.

looks like no 4 legged 2 armed animals :(
Maybe if they had a plutonium core *shifty eyes* :lol:

[Cylinder]

looks like no 4 legged 2 armed animals

http://ohioline.osu.edu/hyg-fact/2000/images/2154_1.gif

[electromagneticpulse]

looks like no 4 legged 2 armed animals
thats an insect not an animal.

[Gullible Jones]

Insects are classified with animals (kingdom Animalia), like other invertebrates.

[Musashi]

Insects are animals.

[edit] Darnit! Beat to the punch.

Anyhow, Kingdom Animalia, Phylum Arthropoda, Class Insecta, Order Mantodea.

[electromagneticpulse]

okay sorry mammels

[Cylinder]

Yup, what they said. :) I thought you were gonna object to the the wings. :)

[electromagneticpulse]

I dont mind things with wings aslong as they dont fly into light bulbs. If they do well thats one less in the species :lol:

[Richard of Chelmsford]

Most of us are familiar with the view that the Universe must have an observer which , if true, would mean that life, however simple, would have had to have been around for much longer than we thought.

Probably in other forms. John Barrow..British scientist..has postulated a theory about why it may be that we cannot see any alien life Out There. Simply because, he says, it might be too small!

There is the other familiar concept of life which 'electronicises'..which ends up only in computers (ask Frank Tipler) or usurps ordinary carbon based life..silicon beats carbon in effect.

And in our electronic endeavours we are going for more and more minuaturisation (can't spell) which would benefot a life form because of the lesser power source it would need.

So, perhaps aliens aren't like humans. Perhaps they're like bacteria.

I'm reminded of seeing a play on telly back in the '60s in which aliens in a space craft are approaching Earth. The Earthmen discover the approach and guide them, at night, down to an airfield. Then they rush outside to welcome the visitors, and one steps on the spacecraft, which is about 5cm high.

[Platinum Rhymer]

i think aliens can range from anything to humanoids to something we cannot even fathom

[Gullible Jones]

Good point, Richard. Perhaps, in the far future, "social climber" and "computer geek" will be one and the same... :lol:

[genebujold]

i think aliens can range from anything to humanoids to something we cannot even fathom

I can fathom quite a lot, from a humanoid to non-humanoid to slime to non-DNA to energy beings to non-E=MC^2 to spirit and beyond.

I've yet to see any plausible evidence of any non-terrestial aliens.

Period.

[Platinum Rhymer]

are you implying that just because there isnt any evidence currently that means your gonna cross the possibility out?

[Gullible Jones]

Oh man, here we go again... :roll:

Platinum, you do realize that "I don't know" and "I think it's bogus" are completely different things, don't you?

[Stinger]

Who cares what anyone thinks Platinum? Why the obsession? Me thinks you need a .. telescope :wink:

[Platinum Rhymer]

okay i'll stop it now

[Platinum Rhymer]

Who cares what anyone thinks Platinum? Why the obsession? Me thinks you need a .. telescope :wink:

i could never be able to afford that, maybe not never but certainly not now

[Stinger]

Hey .. dream, we all do. But allow for less exotic ones from others. Truth is, the universe is a big place and no one here knows for sure what's "out there" as far as ET goes. Who knows? You might be on the right track .. anyway, even "eyeball' observation can be rewarding. Binoculars might be more of a realistic short-term sky-watching enhancement.

I didn't mean to come down on you for your beliefs, just wanted you to allow for some "tamer" ones. I don't believe in all your alien scenarios, but don't think I'm crazy for being a "stick in the mud" any more than I believe you're crazy for your speculation. That's my point .. the concept of ET is not universal (pardon the pun) :wink:

[Maksutov]

I don't know about humanoid aliens being among us, but there's solid evidence for the presence of alien humanoids. Ever dealt with lawyers, accountants, marketing people, or especially, corporate executives? The case is rested. 8)

[Platinum Rhymer]

you mean less-exotic aliens? theres bound to be some exotic aliens out there (of course they wouldnt consider themselves exotic)

[Excelsior]

There is a significant number of humonoid aliens in the US. They are from the planet Mexico. :)

[Tha_Pig]

When we think about possible aliens that evolved in a “parallel” way to humans on Earth, most people thinks on humanoids somehow similar to us. But even a creature very similar to humans in structure and physiology could take shapes completely different to a humanoid.

Usually, in movies and TV aliens look like humans with different skin colors, slightly different skull shape, but mostly humans (that’s of course, because they are human actors with make up) Most people somehow expect aliens to have the same basic structure than us.

But Evolution is a game of trial and error that even in a planet very similar to ours can develop completely different biology.

These are sketches I did of imaginary creatures that have the same basic structure of a human. Bipedal, erect body, free limbs for manipulation… But they are not humanoid at all.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v259/Tha_Pig/aliens.gif

[Gullible Jones]

Interesting. The one on the left reminds me of Hallucigenia for some reason...

[Maksutov]

The one on the right looks like one of stages of Zoidberg's metamorphosis.

[Platinum Rhymer]

those are some ugly aliens

[Gullible Jones]

Only ugly to us, Platinum. Remember, if they were real they would surely find humans quite grotesque...

[Musashi]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

[Platinum Rhymer]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

i knew you were gonna come back with something stupid like this and yeah Gullible, of course i know

[Musashi]

Stupid? It was just a question. I could just as easliy have called almost any of your posts stupid but I haven't. Maybe I should have asked, "Would it make you feel better if they were pretty?"

[Tha_Pig]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, or so they say. I'm sure a cockroach is very beautiful to another cockroach. Same law must apply to extraterrestrial forms of life. What we humans see as a disgusting blob of goo with tentacles may be the highest ranking super model on another planet!

[Tensor]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, ...

Which eye, they have 11.

[gritmonger]

Oooh! I've got some sketches too!
Arthropod:
http://www.pmkelley.com/eri/atlantean.jpg
"Other"
http://www.pmkelley.com/eri/monster.jpg
Kind of close: biped, arms, etc...
http://www.pmkelley.com/eri/avianalien.jpg

[gritmonger]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, ...

Which eye, they have 11.
Obviously the big anti-magic one- otherwise it would be "Beauty is in an eyestalk of the beholder..."

[Tha_Pig]

Oooh! I've got some sketches too!


Those are great! Your own design?

[Musashi]

Nice sketches guys! (or full-blown illustrations :))

[gritmonger]

Oooh! I've got some sketches too!


Those are great! Your own design?

Yeah, thanks! Nice illustrations yourself, by the way: a gritty underground-comics feel to them!

I'm a programmer for a government contractor, but I got my start in comics about ten years ago, and did some illustration for a few unknown game companies, but never the big names. I still draw occasionally- I also fiddled for a bit with a design for a "D20" type game (http://www.pmkelley.com/eri/kullene.htm) for some friends, but it fell through when they discovered "City of Heroin"

I'm something of a nerd completist I guess, and I suppose the next thing to do would be programming a computer game... or I'm open to other suggestions...

[Excelsior]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

Aliens might be thinking the same thing about humans. :)

[electromagneticpulse]

Shoudl aliens be pretty?

It does depend on the eye of the beholder really. Im guessing seeing an alien with 16 tenticle eyes, 2 heads and 3 arms would be kind of scary to most people but i find that women are pretty and they are a completly different species to men... trust me i go to college in a class full of them but im not complaining :lol:

I have several tall tree's outside my window and at about 9am they are the most beautiful sight i've ever seen, i find how water skimmers glide over the water pretty or a bird flying in the sky. I think its when we find an alien specie as attractive is the problem but well their's nechrophiliacs so im sure there'll be some people who'll want to marry an alien.

[Platinum Rhymer]

that is true ^ lol

[electromagneticpulse]

you cant deny it, jerry springer the i love my horse episode... oh well looks like theres going to be some kids between omicron persei 8 and earth :lol:

[NoXion]

Well I'm really into the idea of aliens with arms, legs, a single head but in vastly different configurations to us.
The thing is, I have little idea of any good manipulators apart from hands. Hands can do a lot more than any other kind of manipulator on Earth; I suppose tentacles could do similar things, but I have my doubts. Am I right in saying that hands evolved from paws? then what could tentacles evolve into? what could a crab's pincers evolve into? I think it's possible that you could have manipulators that are different from hands but can do the same things, but I have trouble imagining such things.

To what degree will convergent evolution happen, assuming loosely 'earth-like' planets are common?

[wackywizjr]

How about a hand in a different configuration. Say six fingered with an opposable thumb on each side. It could have full range joints and be able to grip on both sides of the hand in effect have a palm on the front and the back.

[electromagneticpulse]

Well I'm really into the idea of aliens with arms, legs, a single head but in vastly different configurations to us.
The thing is, I have little idea of any good manipulators apart from hands. Hands can do a lot more than any other kind of manipulator on Earth; I suppose tentacles could do similar things, but I have my doubts. Am I right in saying that hands evolved from paws? then what could tentacles evolve into? what could a crab's pincers evolve into? I think it's possible that you could have manipulators that are different from hands but can do the same things, but I have trouble imagining such things.

To what degree will convergent evolution happen, assuming loosely 'earth-like' planets are common?

Hands evolved from feet, i think we only have the difference of where ligaments and muscles are placed one example is im double jointed which is having loose ligaments which allows the bone below my thumb joint to move and this as far as im aware is impossible in the foot. The adaption of aposable thumbs was to grab branches in trees and over time our toes have got shorter and fingers longer as we needed to grab tools instead of having 4 limbs grabbing branches. Our feet still have almost the same range of motion as our feet as you can pick up coins and pens and things with your feet (i use this as im lazy :D).
At one time our feet (when we had 4) probably did evolve from paws as some animals still climb trees using their claws to dig in but if you scratch your claws off you can no longer get into a tree and hide from bigger pray so thats how we got our 4 feet, as pre primates we would have grown fingers with one palm. wackywizjr your idea of two palms wouldn't evolve in anything with tree's i dont think as its not exactly efficient or has anything to evolve from as grabbing a branch you only need one side of your hand to do it, we have almost 360 degree motion in our arms so we can grab a branch from any side and the muscles on the back of a hand dont get used as much as the ones on the front of the hand as we needed to grab a banch alot faster then we needed to let go. Plus the placement of ligaments in fingers that could bend both ways would be very difficult.

Crabs pincers currently have some effect as a manipulator as i've seen crabs dragging sticks out of their rock pools before but i don't have any idea what they could evolve into and i also have no idea what a tentacle could evolve into.

Oh and if anyone can just clarify this for me jelly fish dont have brains but they have to as some have optical nerves which this information has to be processed by a nerve cluster (like 70% of our active brain use IIRC) which is a brain. So what in the heck do they have to do this if they dont have a brain?

[Platinum Rhymer]

can there be a specie with no brain?

[Stinger]

:o

[Musashi]

I believe there is a whole Kingdom with no brain. Scratch that, 4 of the 5 kingdoms seem to be composed entirely of organisms without recognizable brains. I could be wrong, I am not a biologist.

[Stinger]

The EU? :P [runs]

[Platinum Rhymer]

wow, thats interesting

[electromagneticpulse]

The EU? :P [runs]

Hey Hey! now thats not fair! Im part of the EU and im also british... its only tony blair that has no brain :wink:

But if were talking about people with no brains i think Bush wins hands down with Iraq's "weapons of mass distruction", first he says its name wrong, second he halucinates probably that pot he smoked when he was younger finally kicking in :lol: , third he had to start a fight with all his friends on his side.

Hmmm do we have a new species of human being? Its standard job is politician and has no recognisable brain... or is it just a highly evolved worm? :roll:

[dvb]

How about a hand in a different configuration. Say six fingered with an opposable thumb on each side. It could have full range joints and be able to grip on both sides of the hand in effect have a palm on the front and the back.

I think that's a good example of how hands could evolve to a higher state than what they're already capable of. I'm not sure 6 fingers would be anymore useful than 5 though, so I can't see the need for an extra finger. The pinky finger as a thumb could come in handy. :)

I also can't imagine how tenticles could be as manipulative as hands are. Unless maybe the tenticles grew fingers of their own. Imagine trying to type! :o

[gritmonger]

I believe there is a whole Kingdom with no brain. Scratch that, 4 of the 5 kingdoms seem to be composed entirely of organisms without recognizable brains. I could be wrong, I am not a biologist.

No, you're correct- and even within that one kingdom (Animalia), cephalization (the having of a head and potentially brain) is not ubiquitous. Some simply have neural nets (if they are small enough) with very few middle men. Jellyfish, cnidarians, many worms, starfish, and the like. A decentralized neural network in place of a brain... perhaps at an outside chance...

[Stinger]

The EU? :P [runs]

Hey Hey! now thats not fair! Im part of the EU and im also british... its only tony blair that has no brain :wink:

But if were talking about people with no brains i think Bush wins hands down with Iraq's "weapons of mass distruction", first he says its name wrong, second he halucinates probably that pot he smoked when he was younger finally kicking in :lol: , third he had to start a fight with all his friends on his side.

Hmmm do we have a new species of human being? Its standard job is politician and has no recognisable brain... or is it just a highly evolved worm? :roll:I was only joking. I actually have a rebuttal to what you posted .. but not here. :wink:

[Tha_Pig]

can there be a specie with no brain?

A central brain has its advantages and also its disadvantages (like having the bad luck of losing your head)

I guess an organism with an un-centralized nervous system could evolve to intelligent levels. It could have a "network" of neurons that make all its body a thinking mass. Of course, this creature would have its disadvantages too, being the recipient of his intelligence and memory distributed all over his body, could happen that he forgets where he parked his car if someone steps on his foot, or something...

There could be other possibilities, where intelligence as we understand it would develop in a different direction, with structures very different of our idea of a brain. One that has been used in several science fiction stories is silicon being that "think" in a way more akin to computer chips than brains. But I'm not sure that would be physically or chemically viable.

[electromagneticpulse]

can there be a specie with no brain?

A central brain has its advantages and also its disadvantages (like having the bad luck of losing your head)

I guess an organism with an un-centralized nervous system could evolve to intelligent levels. It could have a "network" of neurons that make all its body a thinking mass. Of course, this creature would have its disadvantages too, being the recipient of his intelligence and memory distributed all over his body, could happen that he forgets where he parked his car if someone steps on his foot, or something...

There could be other possibilities, where intelligence as we understand it would develop in a different direction, with structures very different of our idea of a brain. One that has been used in several science fiction stories is silicon being that "think" in a way more akin to computer chips than brains. But I'm not sure that would be physically or chemically viable.

The human body has a response nerve system which is our spinal chord so if you put your hand on something hot with out thinking you will take your hand straight off with a quick jerk and the only time the brain notices is when you say ow. I think it would be more likely that several brains controled different parts of a body with a central processing core brain much like a hive mind that can over ride the rest so your right arm cant decide it doesn't like your girl friend and give her the finger.

im not a biologist i haven't studied what our nerve cells are made up of but i know they act as wires and i know i didn't spend half my days eating copper coins as a child to get my nerves, so wouldn't silicon only work as a replacement for carbon.

I've been looking around and it appears silicon life could occur in our atmosphere atleast i think it could as it forms similar compounds as carbon.

Silicon is important in plant and animal life. Diatoms in both fresh and salt water extract silica from the water to use as a component of their cell walls. looks like life already uses silicon :D

[Platinum Rhymer]

also would aliens have souls?, if the souls do exist (which i am confident on) then i dont see why they wouldnt

[Musashi]

Short answer, not enough data.

Longer answer:

1. Assume souls exist.
2. Decide what gets souls.
A. Every living thing. Then yes.
B. Some living things.
i. Only humans from Earth. Then No.
ii. Only beings above a certain level of sentience.
a. Do the aliens meet the criteria? If so, yes. If not, no.


So you see, if the question is wide open, there can be no real answer. Even assuming souls exist doesn't narrow the field enough. Onc