Meet another debunker: Stanton Friedman!

[junkyardfrog]

Just in case some of you have never heard of him, Stanton is basically the grandfather of ufology. Here is the link where he debunks one of the most interesting people in ufology:

http://www.v-j-enterprises.com/sflazar.html

Too bad. The story was quite entertaining....

I do hafta wonder how much of this story was disinfotainment.

[Fortis]

He never really sounded very plausible. The things that he came out with always had the air of bad sci-fi about them.

[John M. Dollan]

I was always under the impression that he had been debunked ages ago. A lack of credentials was one nail in the coffin. Being out of Federal prison after what would amount to breaking governmental security contracts (dealing with UFO's or not) is another strong indicator that most of his working knowledge probably came from dog-eared copies of "Amazing Stories".

...John...

[The Bad Astronomer]

Heh. If Friedman debunks it, then it's probably real. :-)

For those wondering, yes, I have a history with this guy (http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m18-010.shtml). And there's this, too (http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m28-013.shtml).

[R.A.F.]

If Friedman debunks it, then it's probably real. :-)

Well, Bob Lazar is a real person...other than that Lazar's a total fraud. :)

[junkyardfrog]

Heh. If Friedman debunks it, then it's probably real. :-)
[/url].

hmmm

That's an interesting can of worms you opened.

[Maksutov]

Heh. If Friedman debunks it, then it's probably real. :-)

For those wondering, yes, I have a history with this guy (http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2002/may/m18-010.shtml). And there's this, too (http://www.virtuallystrange.net/ufo/updates/2004/apr/m28-013.shtml).
Amazing how selective Friedman always is. If it's outside his sphere then his debunking seems OK. But let someone infringe on his territory, and watch out.

These two quotes are very revealing:

I would agree that the more familiar one is with the sky the
less likely to _report_ anything strange that is seen lest one
be tarred with the kook brush so often applied by the Menzels
and Sagans and Drakes and Shostaks of the world.

Their arrogance and ignorance about the subject, about deep
space travel,etc are monumental, indeed.

The former seems to reveal a persecution complex, which is not unusual in the fringe. The latter documents the usual result of the former's tendencies, with a descent into ad hominems.

It would be good if the same, albeit somewhat minimal, standards for research and critical thinking that he demonstrated in the Lazar article were also applied to his own areas of investigation.

Having followed Friedman's activities since the 1960s, it's kind of sad to see where he's wound up. One of many successors to Hynek, I guess.

At least I was to good to see Dr. Teller, even if only a photograph. It brought back memories of meeting him again (30 years after our first meeting) at a symposium in 1994 and having a pleasant chat about fusion as a future energy source. Amazingly enough he was in favor of it, but really did a number of the then-current "hot" topic of cold fusion. 8)

[scourge]

If Friedman debunks it, then it's probably real. :-)

Well, Bob Lazar is a real person...

That's depends--how are we defining 'real person?' :D

Lazar even gives cranks a bad name, heh.

[genebujold]

Hmmm... "He could not have gotten a Compartmentalized Security clearance having operated a brothel."

Are you sure? Is there anyone out there who is privy to the federal government / military requirements for ESCI clearance?

Might be true.

Might not.

More: "His W-2 form from the Department of Naval Intelligence totals under $1000.00, at most a week's pay for a scientist. You can't get a security clearance in a week."

Depends upon which year it reflects. If 1958, that's equivalent to about two months contract work done by a senior scientist these days.

Besides - the cost (or time) of conducting security clearances aren't deducted from the cost (or time) of one's time under contract...

SO! Even if the cost of hiring someone to perform work for a month was $1,000, the cost of conducting the security investigation could very easily have topped $10,000, assuming the investigation was conducted thirty or more years ago.

But I've a question - who in the world is "Bob Lazar?" I've heard of the name, but can't place the context...?

[Fortis]

But I've a question - who in the world is "Bob Lazar?" I've heard of the name, but can't place the context...?
He's this guy.
http://www.ufoarea.com/area51_lazar.html

[Gmann]

Is there anyone out there who is privy to the federal government / military requirements for ESCI clearance?

I held an SCI clearance for 7 years while assigned to Military Intelligence units. They never went into great detail about exactly what they were looking for in the backgraund investigation, but if they found something that would call your character into question, you were generally refused a clearance. The process usually takes at least 6 months, and I have seen some go up to 8-10 before the person was cleared. They do a rather extensive investigation to find out about your behavior, and character. There were 2 FBI Agents crawling around Memphis talking to almost every one I knew, and many that I didn't know. I have my doubts that an agency would go through that kind of trouble for 1 month of work, unless they intended to keep him on longer.

[scourge]

He claims that they intended to keep him around to figure out the most advanced propulsion system imaginable, despite the fact that he had no idea that the ‘element 115’ it purportedly relied on would have a vanishingly miniscule half-life, and all his lies about his credentials, residences, hobbies, and I think his dog too. I really don’t understand why this degree of fraud is not a criminal offense, sigh.

[jaeger]

Is there anyone out there who is privy to the federal government / military requirements for ESCI clearance?

I've had one for 18 years. Took 11 months on the initial clearance and get re-investigated every five years - also "no-notice" drug tests and can be "poly-ed" at any time. "They" know more about me than my family knows about me. Anything that even smells suspicious is re-investigated over and over and is adjudicated using very tough standards. There were times we'd lose 75 to 90% of our job applicants (both because of time to get clearance and failure to get a clean bill.)

Getting an SCI having run a brothel - that chance approaches zero.