Phoenix mission [Archive] - Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum

ToSeek

03-June-2005, 02:14 PM

NASA's Phoenix Mars Mission Gets Thumbs up for 2007 Launch

NASA has given the green light to a project to put a long-armed lander onto the icy ground of the far-northern martian plains. NASA's Phoenix lander is designed to examine the site for potential habitats for water ice and to look for possible indicators of life, past or present.

Today's announcement allows the Phoenix mission to proceed with preparing the spacecraft for launch in August 2007. This major milestone followed a critical review of the project's planning progress and preliminary design since its selection in 2003.

Phoenix is the first project in NASA's Mars Scout Program of competitively selected missions. Scouts are innovative and relatively low-cost complements to the core missions of the agency's Mars exploration program.

"The Phoenix Mission explores new territory in the northern plains of Mars analogous to the permafrost regions on Earth," said the project's principal investigator, Dr. Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson. "NASA's confirmation supports this project and may eventually lead to discoveries relating to life on our neighboring planet."

Phoenix is a stationary lander. It has a robotic arm to dig down to the martian ice layer and deliver samples to sophisticated analytical instruments on the lander's deck. It is specifically designed to measure volatiles, such as water and organic molecules, in the northern polar region of Mars. In 2002, NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter found evidence of ice-rich soil very near the surface in the arctic regions.

Like its namesake, Phoenix rises from ashes, carrying the legacies of two earlier attempts to explore Mars. The 2001 Mars Surveyor lander, administratively mothballed in 2000, is being resurrected for Phoenix. Many of the scientific instruments for Phoenix were built or designed for that mission or the unsuccessful Mars Polar Lander in 1999.

"The Phoenix team's quick response to the Odyssey discoveries and the cost-saving adaptation of earlier missions' technology are just the kind of flexibility the Mars Scout Program seeks to elicit," said NASA's Mars Exploration Program Director, Doug McCuistion.

"Phoenix revives pieces of past missions in order to take NASA's Mars exploration into an exciting future," said NASA's Director, Solar System Division, Science Mission Directorate, Dr. Andrew Dantzler.

The cost of the Phoenix mission is $386 million, which includes the cost of launch. The partnership developing the Phoenix mission includes the University of Arizona; NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.; Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver; and the Canadian Space Agency, which is providing weather-monitoring instruments.

"The confirmation review is an important step for all major NASA missions," said JPL's Barry Goldstein, project manager for Phoenix. "This approval essentially confirms NASA's confidence that the spacecraft and science instruments will be successfully built and launched, and that once the lander is on Mars, the science objectives can be successfully achieved."

Much work lies ahead. Team members will assemble and test every subsystem on the spacecraft and science payload to show they comply with design requirements. Other tasks include selecting a landing site, which should be aided by data provided by the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter launching in August, and preparing to operate the spacecraft after launch.

JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, manages Phoenix for NASA's Science Mission Directorate.

For information about NASA and agency programs on the Web, visit http://www.nasa.gov/home/index.html . For information about the Phoenix Mission to Mars on the Web, visit http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu

ToSeek

05-April-2006, 05:45 PM

Phoenix Mars Lander: Getting Down and Dirty On the Red Planet (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/060404_phoenix_tech.html)

The next Mars lander is undergoing assembly and testing, being readied for departure next year to explore the martian arctic. This probe is equipped to dig deep, quite literally, into an ongoing mystery—the history of water on Mars and the planet’s potential as an extraterrestrial address for life.

NASA’s Phoenix Mars mission is the first in the space agency’s Scout series, a class of spacecraft designed to be inventive but relatively low-cost in furthering Mars exploration.

Phoenix is headed for liftoff in August 2007, cruise across the vacuum void for 10 months and set itself down on the red planet in late May 2008. This time there’s no bouncing to full-stop on air bags. It will come to a soft touchdown using controlled thrusters.

VenusROVER

05-April-2006, 11:02 PM

The thing will fail on landing

Hamlet

05-April-2006, 11:11 PM

The thing will fail on landing

What leads you to that conclusion?

antoniseb

05-April-2006, 11:25 PM

The thing will fail on landing
For someone really pushing for accelerated exploration, you seem pretty pessimistic about this one.

VenusROVER

05-April-2006, 11:44 PM

its kinda a stupid mission

Hamlet

05-April-2006, 11:47 PM

its kinda a stupid mission

Care to expound on this? This is not much of a reason.

VenusROVER

05-April-2006, 11:49 PM

All it does is stand in the same place

Lord Jubjub

06-April-2006, 12:21 AM

If you land in an interesting enough place, you don't need to go anywhere else.:naughty:

Just as long as all agree to use the same measuring system.:evil:

Hamlet

06-April-2006, 12:26 AM

All it does is stand in the same place

So? Why does that makes it stupid? Were the Viking and Surveyor missions stupid because they stayed in one place?

Phoenix is a low-cost mission reusing parts from the cancelled Mars Surveyor Program and is meant to complement other major missions. We've never been to the poles of Mars and this should give us a good introduction. There are 7 different instruments that will be used to collect data for the nominal 3 month mission.

Knowledged gained from this mission will point to where we should concentrate future polar missions.

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 12:52 AM

Yes but this does not point out that no man could eat fifty eggs

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 12:52 AM

So? Why does that makes it stupid? Were the Viking and Surveyor missions stupid because they stayed in one place?

Phoenix is a low-cost mission reusing parts from the cancelled Mars Surveyor Program and is meant to complement other major missions. We've never been to the poles of Mars and this should give us a good introduction. There are 7 different instruments that will be used to collect data for the nominal 3 month mission.

Knowledged gained from this mission will point to where we should concentrate future polar missions.
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 12:53 AM

not

A'a

06-April-2006, 01:01 AM

Yes but this does not point out that no man could eat fifty eggs

I think you're losing us here (at least me).

At this point in planetary exploration, no mission is a stupid mission. There is so much that can be learned. Why so negative on this one?

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 01:09 AM

PHoenix is stupid they should have called it YOUR MOM

Omicron Persei 8

06-April-2006, 01:42 AM

Bye bye and good riddance.

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 01:59 AM

what??

Omicron Persei 8

06-April-2006, 02:02 AM

You're insulting everyone here with your childish behavior. It will probably get you banned. Even if you're younger act a little more professional in this forum could you?

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 02:04 AM

what you guys cant take a joke relax man

Omicron Persei 8

06-April-2006, 02:06 AM

what you guys cant take a joke relax man

There is playful joking and then there is inappropriate behavoir...

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 02:06 AM

Relax take a big breath in and out

VenusROVER

06-April-2006, 02:07 AM

wow i'm glad he's not a moderator

ToSeek

26-April-2006, 08:43 PM

Latest press release:

News Release: 2006-066 April 26, 2006

Pieces of NASA'S Next Mars Mission are Coming Together

NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander, the next mission to the surface of Mars, is beginning a new phase in preparation for a launch in August 2007.

As part of this "assembly, test and launch operations" phase, Phoenix team members are beginning to add complex subsystems such as the flight computer, power systems and science instruments to the main structure of the spacecraft. The work combines efforts of Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver; the University of Arizona, Tucson; and NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.

"All the subsystems and instruments from a wide range of suppliers are tested separately, but now we are beginning the vital stage of assembling them together and testing how they will function with each other," said JPL's Barry Goldstein, project manager for Phoenix.

Phoenix will land near the red planet's north polar ice cap to analyze scooped-up samples of icy soil.

"We know there is plenty of water frozen into the surface layer of Mars at high latitudes. We've designed Phoenix to tell us more about this region as a possible habitat for life," said the University of Arizona's Peter Smith, principal investigator for the mission.

Phoenix is the first mission of NASA's Mars Scout Program of competitively proposed, relatively low-cost missions to Mars. The program is currently soliciting proposals for a 2011 Scout mission.

The Phoenix proposal, selected in 2003, saves expense by using a lander structure, subsystem components and protective aeroshell originally built for a 2001 lander mission that was canceled while in development. The budget for the Phoenix mission, including launch, is $386 million.

The spacecraft will land using descent thrusters just prior to touchdown, rather than airbags like those used by the current Mars Exploration Rovers. As Phoenix parachutes through Mars' lower atmosphere in May 2008, a descent camera will take images for providing geological context about the landing site.

The robotic arm being built for Phoenix will be about 2 meters (7 feet) long, jointed at the elbow and wrist, and equipped with a camera and scoop. It will dig as deep as about 50 centimeters (20 inches) and deliver samples to instruments on the spacecraft deck that will analyze physical and chemical properties of the ices and other materials. A stereo color camera will examine the landing site's terrain and provide positioning information for the arm. The Canadian Space Agency is providing a suite of weather instruments for Phoenix.

"The propulsion system and the wiring harness have been added to the vehicle," said Ed Sedivy, Phoenix program manager for Lockheed Martin. "We will be loading flight software onto the flight computer in the next few days. The flight software is much more mature than typical for a planetary program at this stage. As soon as the flight computer is mated up, we can apply external power to the vehicle."

Navigation components, such as star trackers, and communication subsystems will become part of the spacecraft in coming weeks, followed by science instruments in the summer.

Phoenix will be shipped to NASA's Kennedy Space Center, Florida, in May 2007, for final preparations leading up to launch. Before that, testing in Colorado will subject the spacecraft to expected operational environments. This includes thermal and vacuum tests simulating the 10-month trip to Mars and conditions on Mars' surface. Meanwhile, the mission is preparing a test facility in Tucson for practicing and testing procedures for operating the spacecraft on Mars.

JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology, Pasadena, manages Phoenix for NASA's Science Mission Directorate.

For information about NASA and agency programs on the Web, visit http://www.nasa.gov . For information about the Phoenix Mission to Mars on the Web, visit http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu.

ToSeek

20-June-2006, 05:26 PM

Engineering Science Payload Delivered to Mars Phoenix Mission "PIT" (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.rss.html?pid=20116)

The stage is built.

The lights are in.

The computer "brain" that simulates the workings of the Phoenix Mars Lander spacecraft and runs its science payload and telecommunications system is ready for action.

Now a team at the Phoenix Science Operations Center (SOC) at The University of Arizona in Tucson has begun adding engineering models of science payload instruments to a mock lander.

The mock lander is central to the Payload Interoperability Testbed, or "PIT." SOC and the PIT will be the theater of operations for the Phoenix Mission, both for pre-landing practice and post-landing science surface mission operations.

tlbs101

21-June-2006, 05:11 PM

I got my print version of Military & Aerospace Electronics on Monday. The online version is a month behind, so I can't link to this article, just yet.

This article is about integrating components onto the actual spacecraft at JPL in Pasadena.

Electronic pieces of NASA's next Mars mission are coming together

Designers of NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander, the next mission to the surface of Mars, is beginning a new phase in preparation for a launch in August, 2007.

As part of this assembly, test, and launch operations phase, Phoenix team members are beginning to add complex subsystems such as the flight computer, power systems, and science instruments to the main structure of the spacecraft. The work combines efforts of Lockheed Martin Space systems in Denver, the University of Arizona in Tucson, Ariz., and NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif.

The article goes on to say that the flight software will be loaded for the first time, this week, and the science instruments will start to be added later this summer (as was indicated in the article ToSeek ToSeeked yesterday). Star trackers, navigation and comm systems will be added in the coming weeks.

ToSeek

21-July-2006, 05:05 PM

Sunning Frozen Soil (http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2028&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

The answer to the question about life on Mars may very well come from analyzing an unsuspecting source - the soil, specifically the icy layer of soil underneath the red planet's surface. By analyzing the properties of Mars frozen layer of soil during NASA s next lander mission, scientists will be able to better understand and theorize about life on Mars.

A synopsis of the project was presented by Douglas R. Cobos on Monday, July 10, 2006, during the 18th World Congress of Soil Science in Philadelphia.

By exposing this frozen soil layer to the sun, researchers are hoping to measure the properties of the liquid water before it turns to a vapor. According to Cobos, the discovery of this liquid water would be a big finding and best case scenario for the Martian research community. This liquid water the pre-cursor for life says Cobos could even point to life in a dormant state on Mars.

ToSeek

04-August-2006, 06:42 PM

One Year to Launch! (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/features/weblogs/peter_smith.php)

Today, the countdown clock reads T - 1 year to launch and counting. Time has rushed by since our selection as the first Scout mission 3 years ago. Overall we are in an excellent position to meet our launch schedule with high probability of success, while living within our budget.

ToSeek

15-November-2006, 05:42 PM

Piecing Together Life's Potential (http://www.astrobio.net/news/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=2145&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0)

In this interview, Carol Stoker describes what the Phoenix Lander can expect to find when it lands in the martian northern plains. She also explains why astrobiologists have such high hopes for finding the signs of life there.

Launch window

21-November-2006, 08:30 PM

The Phoenix is perhaps most enticing when you consider the astrobiology perspective

ToSeek

06-December-2006, 05:12 PM

Detailed Look at the Next Mars Lander (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/061206_mars_lander.html)

NASA's next mission to the red planet—the Phoenix Mars Lander—is a true wedding of technology with planetary exploration: Something old, something new…something borrowed and something blue.

Named after the resilient mythological bird, Phoenix is based upon a lander that was meant to fly in 2001, but administratively mothballed by NASA. It is also outfitted with instruments that are improved variations of gear carried onboard the ill-fated Mars Polar Lander.

ToSeek

19-December-2006, 05:25 PM

EDL animation:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/multimedia/videos/phoenix_animation.php

MaDeR

19-December-2006, 09:10 PM

01101001

19-December-2006, 09:55 PM

My 0,02 cents... why Phoenix is stationary lander? In NASA? To Mars? In 2007?

Cost.

NASA Future Mission: Phoenix Overview (http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/missions/future/phoenix.html):

The Phoenix mission is the first chosen for NASA's Scout program, an initiative for smaller, lower-cost, competed spacecraft. Named for the resilient mythological bird, Phoenix uses a lander that was intended for use by 2001's Mars Surveyor lander prior to its cancellation. It also carries a complex suite of instruments that are improved variations of those that flew on the lost Mars Polar Lander.

University of Arizona: Phoenix Mars Lander Overview (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/overview/):

The Phoenix Mars Mission, scheduled for launch in August 2007, is the first in NASA's "Scout Program." Scouts are designed to be highly innovative and relatively low-cost complements to major missions being planned as part of the agency's Mars Exploration Program. Phoenix is specifically designed to measure volatiles (especially water) and complex organic molecules in the arctic plains of Mars, where the Mars Odyssey orbiter has discovered evidence of ice-rich soil very near the surface.

djellison

20-December-2006, 07:56 AM

My 0,02 cents... why Phoenix is stationary lander?

Because it doesn't need wheels to do the science it's designed to do. A grab-bag spot anywhere in the hydrogen-rich soils of the northern latitudes is enough. A rover designed to carry the instrument payload of Phoenix would have to be the size of the 2009 rover, MSL, which will cost more than twice as much.

Doug

Cugel

20-December-2006, 08:12 AM

Which brings up the question, why was Mars Polar Lander a stationary lander?
I think partly it's because it is build by the University of Arizona.
Rovers and airbags are typical JPL inventions, not everybody is convinced of their usefulness. For instance, the mobility of a rover comes at a great price, it takes a big piece out of the payload mass. That's why the 2 MER rovers only have that small science package at the tip of a robotic arm. Besides that, Phoenix is not a geology mission, it just looks for water(ice) in the ground. That ice layer should be everywhere in that region of Mars, so there is no need for driving to it. Theoretically, that is.

Cugel

20-December-2006, 08:13 AM

Good morning Doug,
Nice to see someone in the same timezone around here!

JonClarke

20-December-2006, 08:58 AM

My 0,02 cents... why Phoenix is stationary lander? In NASA? To Mars? In 2007?

This contraption should be a great toy to learn landing on Mars for boys and girls from ESA (considering their wet dreams about ExoMars), but why NASA would do that joke? Hello? We have XXI century now...

As others have said, you don't need mobility for the mission it is designed to perform. Mobility is technical difficult, costly in terms of payload, and expensive to produce. You only provide it if you have to. There is lots of excellent science to be done using stationary landers.

Your comment about the innovative and exciting ExoMars mission is derogatory, unneccessary and should be retracted.

Jon

Doodler

20-December-2006, 01:56 PM

Amazing how fast we get spoiled, isn't it? Give'em a couple rovers, and suffenly those stationary landers look like the Model T.

A little thought for y'all remarking about the lack of mobility.

Spirit and Opportunity were designed to look for traces of water in Martian geography. They had to be mobile, because quite frankly, no one had a clue where those signs of water might be found, if they were even there to be found at all.

With Pheonix, we know what we want, we know where it is, we don't have to go fishing for it, so mobility isn't an advantage to the mission criteria.

Please, folks, a little thought before releasing that knee-jerk, alright?

MaDeR

24-December-2006, 01:50 AM

Cost.
If you talk about cost restrictions in Scout type missions, I seen more interesting mission proposals for Martian Scout missions than Phoenix.

There is lots of excellent science to be done using stationary landers.
What else? I can think only about meterological station - but doing ONE fot that much money is waste. Mission a la NetLander would be nice. In other words, if we must go with stationary landers, make bunch of them.

Your comment about the innovative and exciting ExoMars mission is derogatory, unneccessary and should be retracted.
I will retract when they succesfully get their ExoMars on Martian ground fully operational (no craters like Beagle-2 please). And you know why? Because this mission is too innovative and too exciting for inexperienced folks from ESA. In my opinion, ESA have far, far less experience in space and surfaces of other planets than NASA. They should not begin with so big project right away.

Amazing how fast we get spoiled, isn't it? Give'em a couple rovers, and suffenly those stationary landers look like the Model T.
Heh. Yeach, this is true.

With Pheonix, we know what we want, we know where it is, we don't have to go fishing for it, so mobility isn't an advantage to the mission criteria.
Hmmm. This is somewhat convincing, but still one mobile rover = new stationary lander in new place every week. And you would use two, three, ten, more Phoenix landers, right? At least for comparing different drill sites.

JonClarke

24-December-2006, 02:51 AM

If you talk about cost restrictions in Scout type missions, I seen more interesting mission proposals for Martian Scout missions than Phoenix..

That's your opinion. The review panel when Phoenix was approved obviously thought differently, selecting the misison over some extremely attractive comptetitors. Phoenix will address a wide range of outstanding issues of surface chemistry that have been awaiting answers since the Viking missions, questions of key importance to astrobiology, gobal atmospheric dynamics, and future missions.

What else? I can think only about meterological station - but doing ONE fot that much money is waste. Mission a la NetLander would be nice. In other words, if we must go with stationary landers, make bunch of them...

Meteorological and geophysical networks are very attractive missions, and I hope they will fly in the not too distant future. But they will not address the questions that Phoenix will address.

I will retract when they succesfully get their ExoMars on Martian ground fully operational (no craters like Beagle-2 please). And you know why? Because this mission is too innovative and too exciting for inexperienced folks from ESA. In my opinion, ESA have far, far less experience in space and surfaces of other planets than NASA. They should not begin with so big project right away...

ESA and its member nations have been building space probes for more than 20 years. Helios, 1 & 2 Giotto, Cassinni-Huygens, Smart-1, Venus Express, Mars Express, Ulyessys, Rosetta... They are highly experienced and very capable with an excellent success record. There is no reason what so ever that they should not be able to have a successful Mars Rover and are well able to take on such a project.

one mobile rover = new stationary lander in new place every week. And you would use two, three, ten, more Phoenix landers, right? At least for comparing different drill sites.

Rovers are expensive and provding mobility costs payload. There is no point having a rover to test hypotheses that do not require mobility.

Jon

Launch window

24-December-2006, 06:22 AM

Detailed Look at the Next Mars Lander (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/061206_mars_lander.html)

great link, thanks for that

MaDeR

24-December-2006, 12:41 PM

ESA and its member nations have been building space probes for more than 20 years. Helios, 1 & 2 Giotto, Cassinni-Huygens, Smart-1, Venus Express, Mars Express, Ulyessys, Rosetta...
No mission involved mobile rover on surface for now. Two missions involved stationary lander - one succes, one crater. I would do more stationary landers (mission a la Phoenix would be ideal) before trying mobile rover. This can be very costly new Martian crater with lack of that kind of experience.

BTW... I know about Rosetta, but:
1. Mission is on way, not deployed. Main mission even not begin!
2. Their rover will be deployed in completely different enviroment and is not certain that this would work anyway - see Hayabusa.
In other words, this mission don't count for now.

Rovers are expensive and provding mobility costs payload. There is no point having a rover to test hypotheses that do not require mobility.
In other words, if you had avaliable many stationary landers a la Phoenix for price of two, you will throw these away? Strange. Oh, well.

djellison

24-December-2006, 01:17 PM

Hmmm. This is somewhat convincing, but still one mobile rover = new stationary lander in new place every week. And you would use two, three, ten, more Phoenix landers, right? At least for comparing different drill sites.

No - one new rover = not one phoenix lander as you could not accomodate the Phoenix payload on a current rover design.

I can see why people want to bolt wheels onto everything, but you have to think about these things sensibly. Phoenix is a highly focused, short life mission. 6 months down the line, Phoenix will be dead because of the sun setting for several months. It's a short lived, focused science goals mission. It doesn't need wheels, and to deliver its payload on wheels would cost as much as say....MSL...and wheels would be madness because yeah, you could move from here..to here... but the northern polar plains are not like Meridiani or Gusev - there will not be much to rover to anyway - and you only have a few months before the sun sets for months and your mission is over.

Phoenix is the right mission for the right job in answering the issue of volitiles in the Martian soil

And you asked this of someone else.... yes... if Phoenix works I would rather it were done than two more MER's in its place ( infact, it would be impossible to do a single MER on the Phoenix budget according to MER PI Steve Squyres ) - and after Phoenix, I would rather we had one MSL rather than another two MER's. I am possibly the biggest 'fan' of MER around - I started a web forum dedicated to them three years ago ( which has now grown to something else ) - I've given talks just about the rovers to astronomy societies etc etc etc - but I also understand that they are designed for a specific job, and that the question of polar ice is not it.

More is better...but my definition of more is more science, not just the number of wheels on the ground.

I'm seing the same argument all over the place - put out by people who just don't understand the principles of putting payload on the surface, and by people who seem to think that the best way forward, is to do more of the same....which is just wrong.

Doug

MaDeR

24-December-2006, 03:57 PM

No - one new rover = not one phoenix lander as you could not accomodate the Phoenix payload on a current rover design.
Someone mention here that MSL-like (to accomodate payload, RTG etc) Phoenix would cost twice. So for price of two Phoenix mission we would have a new stationary Phoenix lander every, say, two weeks (drilling, taking measures and un-drilling would take some time). Assuming lifetime same as original MSL, this would be a lot of drills. A lot of stationary Phoenix landers for price of two of them.

For me, it is no-brainer, but oh well.

djellison

24-December-2006, 03:58 PM

Assuming lifetime same as original MSL,

And how do you propose to operate MSL in the six month north polar night? Are you actually proposing a $1B rover that will have a mission of only 3 months before the long night sets in and kills it? For me, it's a no brainer. What you propose is both a waste of a rover and/or a waste of half a billion $ - depends how you look at it. But given that Phoenix is deep into ATLO, the majority of its budget is already spent, and to cancel it now would be a waste of something like $400M. What you are suggesting makes no scientific, financial or systematic sense.

Phoenix is the best way to go an answer the question of the north polar deposits. Doing it with a $1B rover would be a waste of a rover and a waste of money. I would put a lot of money on your initial response once a rover landed at the Phoenix site being "why did they send a rover here - it's all the same!"

Doug

ToSeek

24-December-2006, 04:52 PM

Someone mention here that MSL-like (to accomodate payload, RTG etc) Phoenix would cost twice. So for price of two Phoenix mission we would have a new stationary Phoenix lander every, say, two weeks (drilling, taking measures and un-drilling would take some time). Assuming lifetime same as original MSL, this would be a lot of drills. A lot of stationary Phoenix landers for price of two of them.

For me, it is no-brainer, but oh well.

I doubt that's the case. One of the reasons Phoenix was possible for a Scout price is that most of it was built already as part of an earlier landing program that was canceled. Building a rover with the same science capabilities would likely cost five or six times as much, not twice.

MaDeR

24-December-2006, 05:36 PM

And how do you propose to operate MSL in the six month north polar night?
You know what powers MSL, right? Right? But yes, polar version of MSL would be different from your regular MSL. And would be done after succesful use of first, regular MSLs. Remember that NASA engineers plans to use basic MSL design in all future rover missions.

long night sets in and kills it?
You think that MSL is powered on solar panels? Or that version of MSL can't have more heaters and other small modifications? Or what?

But given that Phoenix is deep into ATLO, the majority of its budget is already spent, and to cancel it now would be a waste of something like $400M.
Cite me. Where I talk about cancelling Phoenix? I talk about sense of that mission. In other word, that mission should never be started. As I said before, these are more interesting propositions within constraints of Scout money budget.

I would put a lot of money on your initial response once a rover landed at the Phoenix site being "why did they send a rover here - it's all the same!"
You suggest that comparing different drill sites is not important? Or you just know that ground is all the same over whole Mars polar cap?

To you all:
Decide how much would this cost. Two Phoenixs? 1 bln $? 5 Phoenixs? I would go with price tag for original MSL (considering that would be n-th MSL-class rover, so lower costs, but cost of doing modifications for polar enviroment would make this up).

djellison

24-December-2006, 06:05 PM

Ohhhhhhhh K - we have another gaetanomarano amoungst us who confuses opinions with facts. Ho hum.

Doug

Omicron Persei 8

24-December-2006, 06:40 PM

MaDeR,

The MSL was a pipe dream when the Phoenix mission was already in full force, using equipment already well suited for use on the MPL-type vehicle bus. I don't even see how this is an issue with you. So we should just have spent millions redesigning the MSL bus to incorporate the instruments or even spend millions more redesigning the instruments for the MSL bus? And in the process delaying the mission for years? Hey, I've got a $4,000 dollar toilet seat you might be interested in...

MaDeR

24-December-2006, 09:23 PM

Ohhhhhhhh K - we have another gaetanomarano amoungst us who confuses opinions with facts.
So point where I commit mistakes and confuse something. And no, suggesting things that I never wrote (like cancelling Phoenix mission) don't count. :naughty:

So we should just have spent millions redesigning the MSL bus to incorporate the instruments or even spend millions more redesigning the instruments for the MSL bus?
Not again suggesting things that I never wrote... :mad:

Where I wrote about redesigning Phoenix to MSL? I said that I would choose other Scout mission to launch in 2007 (obviously now is too late, but assume that for sake of discussion) and start Phoenix-type mission using polar version of MSL after succes of first MSLs. Instruments would be build from scratch, of course.

djellison

24-December-2006, 09:33 PM

.....Not again suggesting things that I never wrote... :mad:.....

So we should just have spent millions redesigning the MSL bus to incorporate the instruments or even spend millions more redesigning the instruments for the MSL bus?

Umm - you're busted - I never said that, OP9 did.

However putting your suggesting things that I never wrote to one side for a moment - by suggesting that MSL would be a better thing than Phoenix - by saying that for the price of just 2x Phoenix you could have MSL going there instead, by saying that a rover would be better than Phoenix - by suggesting that MSL could and should be going to the Martian polar regions - you are insinuating in the strongest possible way that Phoenix should not fly...it is the only logical assumption based on your argument, if you think something else, then what is your argument about....but hey...at least I didn't put actual words into your mouth that you never spoke like some around here.

:wall:

Bottom line :

Phoenix is the best spacecraft - in ATLO or just the drawing board - to investigate the polar regions for several reasons. 1) It has the right instrumentation to answer the questions we need to answer. 2) It has the arm of sufficient size and ability to do the digging required. 3) It is a comparatively cheap lander appropriate for a short life mission that will end with the arrival of the long dark polar winter. 4) The landing site in question does not require mobility as the terrain and science is such that any one spot is good for the science required.

MSL would be totally wasted by sending it to polar regions...it would be an utter disgrace, a waste of time, money, and 18 months of the vehicles life. And yes, I do know that MSL is RTG powered and thus doesn't require sunlight to operate - but the requirement of floodlighting on the vehicle, inability to image long rage, and indeed the fact that it would be slowly frosted over during winter whilst wandering around terrain that's the same as the place it landed and the same as anything it could go and visit.

http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/PSP/PSP_001337_2480/ - THAT requires a cheaper, short life, volatile focused static lander to ground-truth an orbital observation

http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/PSP/PSP_001468_1535/
http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/TRA/TRA_000873_2015/
http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/TRA/TRA_000861_1530/ - THOSE require a highly mobile, geologically equpied long-life rover.

Right tool for the right job.

Doug

JonClarke

25-December-2006, 03:35 AM

No mission involved mobile rover on surface for now. Two missions involved stationary lander - one succes, one crater. I would do more stationary landers (mission a la Phoenix would be ideal) before trying mobile rover. This can be very costly new Martian crater with lack of that kind of experience..

Irrelevant. ESA have demonstrated that they can run highly complex missions successfully. It is no more difficult landing a rover on Mars than a stationary lander. So if they decide to do a rover mission, that is there decision.

BTW... I know about Rosetta, but:
1. Mission is on way, not deployed. Main mission even not begin!
2. Their rover will be deployed in completely different enviroment and is not certain that this would work anyway - see Hayabusa.
In other words, this mission don't count for now.

OK, that just leaves Venus Express, Mars Express, Giotto, Smart-1, Helios 1 & 2 , Ulysseys, and Cassinni-Huygens as just some of th successful deep space missions that ESA and its member countries have successfully achieved. This diverse suite of missions and the depth of aerospace technology that ESA can call out is every reason to think they can achieve a rover mission on Mars. Against this we just have your prejudice that they cannot.

In other words, if you had avaliable many stationary landers a la Phoenix for price of two, you will throw these away? Strange. Oh, well.

This makes no sense at all. What are you trying to say?

Jon

JonClarke

25-December-2006, 03:52 AM

Some people just don't realise that Phoenix and MSL are two very different missions, designed for very different goals.

MSL is designed for long range, long duration field geology with a secondary astrobiology mission, and is an expansion of what the MERs have done. Phoenix is designed to test very specific hypotheses about soil physics and chemistry. MSL cannot test them, it does not carry the right payload.

Trajectory considerations limit MSL to +/-45 degrees of the equator. MSL would not be able to be sent to the regions that Phoenix can reach (~70-80 degrees N). MSL would be useless through the polar night and would be a wasted mission for much of the time, even if it could be sent to the polar regions

Phoenix will cost US$284 million, MSL of the order of US1.2 billion, more than four times as expensive. For the specific questions that Phoenix is designed to answer, it is the superior probe. There were hopes to test the Viking hypotheses about the nature of the martian regolith hypotheses with MPL, Beagle 2, and Mars 96, so there are a lot of people waiting on this. Plus those who had hoped to see their instruments fly on the 2001 lander.

Phoenix is an excellen mission that will provide some long overdue information on aspects of the Martian surface, will explore hithertoo unvisited regions of Mars, and so so very cheaply.

Jon

MaDeR

25-December-2006, 12:45 PM

you are insinuating in the strongest possible way that Phoenix should not fly...

I wrote about this already. No any contradiction exists.
I talk about sense of that mission. In other word, that mission should never be started.
If you all did not agree with me, fine. But please, read what I said first.

Phoenix is the best spacecraft
Because it is mostly already done. I agree that contraption is better that nothing, because now is too late to change anything.

wandering around terrain that's the same as the place it landed and the same as anything it could go and visit.
How do you know that's all same? You seem to know very much about Mars. More than NASA. If you can provide reference or cite any scientist that say "all these polar plains are same everywhere, boooring" or something like that...

http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/PSP/PSP_001337_2480/ - THAT requires a cheaper, short life, volatile focused static lander to ground-truth an orbital observation

I seen here (http://hiroc.lpl.arizona.edu/images/PSP/release_005.html) much more northern plains and they're more diverse that you suggesting. And you can't see underground in these photos.

OK, that just leaves Venus Express, Mars Express, Giotto, Smart-1, Helios 1 & 2 , Ulysseys, and Cassinni-Huygens (...) This diverse suite of missions (...)
This is your only revelance of these missions to mars rover mission? That they are soo diverse? I repeat: these missione features no mobile rover. ESA have no experience with missions with mobile rovers. And they have 50% success rate in landing anything on any alien surface for now. And their faliure was on Mars - same place where they want send rover. Not very... assuring.

MSL would be useless through the polar night
Tell me why. It is not possible to build polar version of MSL with instruments similiar to Phoenix suite?

Summary:
Phoenix is almost complete, so cancelling it now make no sense, is too late. I hope that this mission will be succesful, because Phoenix is better that nothing in 2007. I critique not concept of mission, but lack of mobility. Your biggest argument is that polar plains are all same. Considering that I hear it from Mars enthusiasts, it is very strange argument.

So, how I would done it? Many years ago, I would pick different mission for 2007, and after 2009 I would go to polar region with MSL modified to withstand polar enviroment and with Phoenix-like payload.

That's all. If you do not like it, well. These are your opinions, like mine.

mgrodzki

25-December-2006, 04:44 PM

Omicron Persei 8

25-December-2006, 06:02 PM

i was thinking the same thing about phoenix, with the rovers moving all over the place and lasting 1000 days longer than expected… it will be a bit of a buzz kill to see the phoenix land and too us non-scientists, it will seem over and done with comparitively.

Ah and therein lies the issue. Phoenix, like all planetary probes are designed for science, not just for pretty pictures (though I'll agree it's good for PR). Why spend billions more on an MSL-type mission for scientific goals when we have a perfectly capable landing craft for the job? If there is indeed something that requires further investigation (and that's always the case) then a mission can be properly planned in the future.

djellison

25-December-2006, 06:46 PM

I would go to polar region with MSL modified to withstand polar enviroment and with Phoenix-like payload.

And floodlights I presume - to illuminate the terrain in the long dark polar night for months on end - and of course extra heaters to survive through the winter....and er...well...perhaps Connect 4 or something to pass the time during the polar winter when you can see nothing and thus do nothing.

I can not believe you would take MSL away from the terrain for which it is required, and send it to the terrain where it is not - complete and utter madness.

Doug

JonClarke

26-December-2006, 10:43 AM

This is your only revelance of these missions to mars rover mission? That they are soo diverse? I repeat: these missione features no mobile rover. ESA have no experience with missions with mobile rovers. And they have 50% success rate in landing anything on any alien surface for now. And their faliure was on Mars - same place where they want send rover. Not very... assuring.

ESA's overall success rate on deep space missions is higher than NASA, who in the last 20 years have had the failures of Mars Observer, Mars Climatology Orbiter, Genesis, Contour, Mars Polar Lander, and Deep Space 2, and major failures effecting Clementine and Galileo. How much experience Did NASA have of landing on Mars when when Viking was launched? ExoMars is a far lower risk mission than Viking given that many of the unknowns about Martian EDL and the surface have already been solved. By your logic NASA should not have send Viking to Mars until they had sent something much simpler.

Your position might have merit if ESA was just beginning the deep space exploration business, like China and India. However they are not, they have been doing it for more than 20 years. Nor are they neophytes at EDL systems, member countries have been building EDL systems for 40 years. Nor are the technical issues unknown. Thanks to the various successful orbiter and flyby and lander mission it is possible to design precisely for known conditions.

Why can't MSL cope with the polar night?

1) MSL can't reach the poles. A fact you consistently ignore. To make MSL reach the poles you would need either a bigger earth departure stage - not possible with the selected booster - or to shed mass, you would also need to modify the guidance system. Do0 this and it's no longer MSL

2) MSL is not designed to operate at polar temperatures. You would need to redesign the heating system and power system. Do this and it is no longer MSL,

3) MSL has no night driving system. You could provide it with headlights or an image intensifying system, or thermal IR imaging system to navigate. All of which would cost power and mass. Thus either a bigger rover or unloading some of the payload would be required. Wither way it's no longer MSL

[QUOTE=MaDeR;891096]It is not possible to build polar version of MSL with instruments similiar to Phoenix suite?

Of course it is possible to build a polar rover. There has been at least one study, for a MER-like rover designed, like Pheonix, to last for the Martian summer. But for reasons already explained, it is not possible to put a MSL lander into the polar regions. It would be a completely new rover.

Why would you want to put the Phoenix instruments onto MSL? They are optimised for a stationary mission, MSL's instruments are optomised for a mobile mission. Why MSL instruments would you leave off for the Phoenix instruments?

Phoenix is almost complete, so cancelling it now make no sense, is too late. I hope that this mission will be succesful, because Phoenix is better that nothing in 2007. I critique not concept of mission, but lack of mobility. Your biggest argument is that polar plains are all same. Considering that I hear it from Mars enthusiasts, it is very strange argument.

Because the science questions that Phoenix is designed to anwer about the physics and chemistry of the Martian surface do not need mobility. Some background is obviously neccessary.

The Viking astrobiology experiments discovered that these areas had identicial peculiar surface properties indicating gasesous exchange with the atmosphere, nutrient binding and oxidation. These were superficially suggestive of biology, but the detailed reaction patterns and the absence of detectable organics meant that the most likelyc ause was unusual surface chemistry involving the presence of reactive clays and super oxides and peroxides.

This was done at two widely separated localities with identical results. Combined with data from other missions, most significantly Phobos 2 that the surface dust has the same composition globally (confirmed by later missions), the evidence is that these properties occur right across Mars.

These conclusions are dominated our understanding of Martian surface chemistry and physics for 30 years and are long overdue for testing. There have been four previous attempts to test them, all unsuccessful - MPL and Beagle 2 crashed, Mars 96 did not leave LEO and the NASA 2001 lander was cancelled. A detailed physiochemical understanding of what causes the chemical activity of the martian surface will have major implications for instrument slection of future astrobiology missions, how we understand glocal interactions between the atmosphere and the surface, the possibility of present life on Mars, whether Mars could ever have supported life, the liklihood of terrestrial organisms streading on the surface, and what sort of materials should be selected for future probes.

Because the suspected properties are globally distributed they need only need to tested in one spot. Since the northern high latitudes of Mars are attractive for many reasons - the presence of near surface water ice, the existance of pressures, temperatures, and humidities high enough on occasion to sustain liquid water - by sending the probe there would kill two birds with one relatively cheap stone.

So they only need in situ measurements in one locality to test these hypotheses. What is it about this that you fail to understand?

So, how I would done it? Many years ago, I would pick different mission for 2007, and after 2009 I would go to polar region with MSL modified to withstand polar enviroment and with Phoenix-like payload.

We all have wish lists for how things should have happened. Mine would not have a 20 year hiatus in US unmanned exploration and a continuation of Soviet missions from 1974. Even better the US would have maintained the peak imputus of the Apollo pogram and have had people on mars in the mid 80's. But this is all wishful thinking as none of this happened. In the fiscally constrained reality we live in Phoenix will still, God willing, deliver us very usefu, indeed essential science, long over due, for almost a third the price of the MER mission and less than a quarter that of MSL.

That's all. If you do not like it, well. These are your opinions, like mine.

Of course this is all our opinion. But it is preferable that opinion be informed. In your case I would hope you would constrain yours by a somewhat better understanding of relaities, be they the capabilities of ESA, how goals of different space missions effects their design, and the resulting operational constraints. After all, that is why people copme here, I hope, to learn from each other.

Jon

MaDeR

26-December-2006, 07:02 PM

deep space missions
I repeat again: I'm interested in missions involving mobile rover, not any "soo wonderfully diverse deep space" missions. Tell me, how many these mobile rover missions NASA preformed, and how many these mobile rover missions ESA preformed?

and major failures effecting Clementine and Galileo.
This is rubbish. These missions was highly succesful, in spite of all faliures. Especially Galileo.

Your position might have merit if ESA was just beginning the deep space exploration business,
ESA IS novice in planetary surface exploration business. I already told that I don't care with experience in deep space - I agree that ESA can deliver their ExoMars to Mars. But landing and surviving on alien surface is completely different story.

no longer MSL
This is not important, how it is named. Most important question is different: are changes feasible? I think that you would answer "no".

It would be a completely new rover.
Maybe. Unfoturnately. If "polar version" of MSL (with minior changes only) is not possible, my proposition is not possible.

Why would you want to put the Phoenix instruments onto MSL?

Phoenix-like payload.
This answers your question?

So they only need in situ measurements in one locality to test these hypotheses. What is it about this that you fail to understand?
I do not understant that you're so sure about "one locality". I would not be surprised if after Phoenix scientists will propose another mission to pole, but with mobile rover.

djellison

26-December-2006, 09:12 PM

But landing and surviving on alien surface is completely different story.

Err - Huygens?

Look - it's very simple. There is orbital evidence for hydrogen in polar regions. We need a ground truth to find out what form it is. The cheapest and quickest way to do that is to send a comparatively cheap lander up there to have a dig around. That's what we're doing.

http://marsoweb.nas.nasa.gov/landingsites/msl/memoranda/MSL_Eng_User_Guide_v2.pdf

"As the latitude increases (north or south), several conditions begin to develop that will naturally reduce rover operational efficiency. When the latitude approaches 50-60°N or S, these can in some cases be significant. For example, reduced illumination and the presence of CO2 frost may degrade the quality and interpretability of images used for science or rover operations, such as arm motions or driving. Persistent cold temperatures may reduce the energy available to operate the science instruments. Finally, the short duration or absence of Earth view will impede direct to/from Earth communications."

MSL design can do +/- 60 degrees latitude. You couldn't take MSL to the polar regions without a dramatic redesign, without a bigger more expensive LV, without different thermal design, without a means to opperate for many months in total darkness. It wouldn't be MSL any more. It would be complete redesign, perhaps using the MSL landing system of a decent stage and the Skycrane manouver.

What you're basically saying is "wouldn't it be nice to send a rover to the north pole of Mars"

Yes - it would - it's be great to send 50 MSL's to all over Mars...but that sort of money isn't around - Phoenix will answer the first level questions we want answering for the least money, and the abilites of a rover are far far better sent to the layered outcrops that the 40 or so landing site proposals are all about. Given our current understand of Mars, and the observations taken by MGS, MEX, MRO and MODY, a cheaper static lander to the poles and a mobile vehicle to equatorial layered outcrops is the best next step.

MaDeR

27-December-2006, 01:30 AM

Err - Huygens?
Yes, that was a success. Unfoturnately, ESA still have 50% faliure rate involving landing on anything. And that faliure was on Mars, not Titan. So better they be prepared.

What you're basically saying is "wouldn't it be nice to send a rover to the north pole of Mars"
Yes. :neutral:

best next step.
You're convincing, but... what later? When you would send any rover (MSL or no MSL, not important) to polar regions?

djellison

27-December-2006, 08:27 AM

Yes, that was a success. Unfoturnately, ESA still have 50% faliure rate involving landing on anything. And that faliure was on Mars, not Titan. So better they be prepared.

Actually, Beagle 2 was not an ESA project, it was classified on an instrument on an ESA spacecraft - ESA's involvement was minimal and indeed that is one of the main recommendations from the B2 accident investigation documentation - that ESA's involvement should have been more extensive throughout development.

When you would send any rover (MSL or no MSL, not important) to polar regions?

I don't know - it depends what Phoenix tells us. I can't imagine the polar regions justifying a rover ( fundamental reasons, the long polar nights of several months, and little change in terrain over rover scale - 5-50km - distances ) in the near future if ever - even the Phoenix PI admits "After all, this may be the last mission to the exciting polar region for a long time."

I would put a dozen of the MSL proposed landing sites higher up a list of "scientifically justifiable" for an MSL type vehicle before the polar regions - both from a position of scientific justification, and operational limitations...you only get six months before the dark comes - better to spend another 150kg on instruments to work the hell out of the reachable terrain, than 150kg putting wheels on the thing to do half a job on a dozen km of similar terrain

When you look at the HiRISE images of the Phoenix sites - you look at them....then look at one side, compare it to the other side...there would be no new science to be gained by traversing that. Looks at Gale crater - there would be new scince in moving 1 metre up the outcrop - same at a lot of Meridiani sites, and other sites. These are sites that REQUIRE mobility to do the best science - that is where the money should be spent on wheels.

I would rather send a static deep drill than a rover to either pole in actual fact - that would be the next interesting spacecraft in the MSL mass-scale vehicle ( 750kg on the ground ). Land anywhere within a 20km diameter circular landing site - take the remote drilling and analysis hardware that's been on the drawing board for a few years - and do the science with mobility in the vertical, not the horizontal...particularly given that where we see the layers from orbit - we're seing these layers both contaminated by current martian environmental conditions AND often on steep slopes that a rover could not navigate. Better to go 'high' and drill down through those layers ( and oh wow - the science from that would be amazing! - Martain climate records!)

In terms of a bigger picture - I don't think were at a point where we are able to send the mass of a payload that would justify mobility (a deep drill type instrument ) AND the means to move it a scientifically significant ( hundreds of km ) distance within one landing. I'd still pick something like a static deep drill over an MSL type vehicle as the next polar mission - simply from a 'best science per $' perspective.

Doug

MaDeR

27-December-2006, 06:17 PM

Actually, Beagle 2 was not an ESA project
Oh, now we renunciate ESA involvement, eh? Well, success have many fathers, faliure no one. Not very convincing... :whistle:

it was classified on an instrument on an ESA spacecraft
Mistake of ESA. On their head will be it.

deep drill type instrument
Yep, deep drill MUST be immobile. But I think that first kind of this drill will be preformed with human assistance. Looooooooooong time to wait, even if NASA own wet dream of sending humans to Mars fulfill at period mentioned in Bush Vision (chances like snowball in hell - only discovery of life can change that).

JonClarke

28-December-2006, 01:32 AM

I repeat again: I'm interested in missions involving mobile rover, not any "soo wonderfully diverse deep space" missions. Tell me, how many these mobile rover missions NASA preformed, and how many these mobile rover missions ESA preformed?

Only being interested in rover missons is your loss. Mars researchers on the other hand are interested in learning about Mars. There are some very important questions that can only be answered by stationary landers, others than be be most cheaply aswered with such a lander. Phoenix addresses these questions. Not understanding this displays for your ignorance of the goals and purpose of Mars missions. It is the opinions of the resarchers that count in mission selection, not the desires of the public.

This is rubbish. These missions was highly succesful, in spite of all faliures. Especially Galileo.

Read your history. Clementine achieved its primary lunar mission. It failed to achieve its secondary mission to the asteroid Geographos. It was a great mission that could have been better.

Galileo was a great mission. But the failure of the high gain antennae had serious implications for data return rate. In particular studies of Jovian atmospheric dynamics were impacted, since the aim of high resolution time lapse imagery of the clouds could not be achieved. Another great mission but one that could have been still greater.

ESA IS novice in planetary surface exploration business. I already told that I don't care with experience in deep space - I agree that ESA can deliver their ExoMars to Mars. But landing and surviving on alien surface is completely different story.

They are not novices. they have had one successful (Huygens) and one failed (Beagle 2) lander. While unsuccessful, Beagle was very instructive with many lessons on both to do and how not to do things. The EDL issues for Mars are much better understood environment now than when Beagle 2 was designed. With this knowledge and experience, much greater than NASA had when Viking landed, I find it reasonable to think they can achieve it.

This is not important, how it is named. Most important question is different: are changes feasible? I think that you would answer "no".

The changes neccesary to land MSL at high latitudes are so great that it would be better to design a whole new rover.

I do not understant that you're so sure about "one locality". I would not be surprised if after Phoenix scientists will propose another mission to pole, but with mobile rover.

It depends what you want to do. To test the current questions reactive physics and chemistry on the surface of Mars a single landing with the right instrument package anywhere on Mars would suffice.

To explore the polar environment of Mars would need many missions, including rovers. And ultimately humans. Phoenix is only the start. Its findings will constrain future missions. But its going to be a long time before we get another mission to the polar regions. NASA won't be flying such a mission until the 2013 window. ESA until 2015 or later.

Jon

JonClarke

28-December-2006, 01:48 AM

I can't imagine the polar regions justifying a rover ( fundamental reasons, the long polar nights of several months, and little change in terrain over rover scale - 5-50km - distances ) in the near future if ever - even the Phoenix PI admits "After all, this may be the last mission to the exciting polar region for a long time."

Geoff Landis did a conceptual study of a small, MER type rover with a vertical solar panel for use in the Martian poles. the panel would be sun tracking and perfortaed to reduce wind resistance. MER experience of averaging 8 metres per day suggests that such a rover would cover 1.4 km in 6 months. This could be very useful if it could traverse finely layered terrain. It would need a somewhat different set of instruments to MER though.

I would put a dozen of the MSL proposed landing sites higher up a list of "scientifically justifiable" for an MSL type vehicle before the polar regions - both from a position of scientific justification, and operational limitations...you only get six months before the dark comes - better to spend another 150kg on instruments to work the hell out of the reachable terrain, than 150kg putting wheels on the thing to do half a job on a dozen km of similar terrain

When you look at the HiRISE images of the Phoenix sites - you look at them....then look at one side, compare it to the other side...there would be no new science to be gained by traversing that. Looks at Gale crater - there would be new scince in moving 1 metre up the outcrop - same at a lot of Meridiani sites, and other sites. These are sites that REQUIRE mobility to do the best science - that is where the money should be spent on wheels.

Definitely!

I would rather send a static deep drill than a rover to either pole in actual fact - that would be the next interesting spacecraft in the MSL mass-scale vehicle ( 750kg on the ground ). Land anywhere within a 20km diameter circular landing site - take the remote drilling and analysis hardware that's been on the drawing board for a few years - and do the science with mobility in the vertical, not the horizontal...particularly given that where we see the layers from orbit - we're seing these layers both contaminated by current martian environmental conditions AND often on steep slopes that a rover could not navigate. Better to go 'high' and drill down through those layers ( and oh wow - the science from that would be amazing! - Martain climate records!)

Deep drilling in the martian poles would be very difficult from an engineering, instrumentation and robotics perspective, even though very desirable. Not only do you need to drill and clear the hole, you would need to case the bore, collect and log the samples. Power demands would be high and would would need to operate through the polar night be you wanted to go to a useful depth (10's, 100's of m). A standard terrestrial drilling rig capable of drilling several hundred metres on Earth masses in at 20-30 tonnes and needs several kilowatts to run. Even with clever engineering, advanced materials, and lighter construction because of lower gravity I can't see the rig coming in at less than several tonnes, and a couple of kilowatts. MSL's EDL system wouldn't work, an RTG would not supply enough power, and solar would be ineffective. You would need a small reactor.

So, all in all, this might be something best done with a human crew. The recent JBIS Project Boreas report, about a Mars polar station, explores this (and other matters), and is well worth a read :).

In terms of a bigger picture - I don't think were at a point where we are able to send the mass of a payload that would justify mobility (a deep drill type instrument ) AND the means to move it a scientifically significant ( hundreds of km ) distance within one landing. I'd still pick something like a static deep drill over an MSL type vehicle as the next polar mission - simply from a 'best science per $' perspective.

I agree we are a long way from achieving such a mission. I don't think drill mobility is practical, if you want to drill more than a couple of metres you would drill where you land. I'm coming from a position where I used to supervise up to 20 km of drilling a year (admittedly in rock, not ice), usually 50-300 m holes, but occasionally deeper.

I would like to see a small polar rover to a carefully selected site in the polar layered terrains as the next rover mission after MSL and ExoMars. Sadly this won't be happening until after 2011 for NASA (there isn't a rover in the 2011 Scout proposal list that I am aware of) and after 2020 for ESA (their MSR mission is next cab of the rank after ExoMars, and that won't launch until 2015, at the earliest).

But maybe the Japanese, or Chinese, or Indians will be in the Martian exploration game by then. I hope so!

Jon

MaDeR

28-December-2006, 04:37 PM

Only being interested in rover missons is your loss.
You lost. Context. I was talking about ESA experience with mobile rovers here. And their experience in that area is nil.

It was a great mission that could have been better.(...)Another great mission but one that could have been still greater.
You said "major faliures" before. For me, it reads "these missions went almost straight to trash". Thanks for word play.

They are not novices. they have had one successful (Huygens) and one failed (Beagle 2) lander.
As I said: 50% success rate. With stationary landers (mobile will be somewhat harder). I still think that they need at least one stationary lander mission on Mars before ExoMars. NetLander would be very nice, but was cutted long ago. :(

I find it reasonable to think they can achieve it.
Will see.

JonClarke

28-December-2006, 11:02 PM

You lost. Context. I was talking about ESA experience with mobile rovers here. And their experience in that area is nil.

First it was ESA had no experience, then it was no experience with landers and now its no experience with rovers. That's moving the goal posts.

How are they to gain experience except by sending a rover? There is a first time for everyone, even NASA. Before Sojourner, NASA had not done a planetary rover either.

You said "major faliures" before. For me, it reads "these missions went almost straight to trash". Thanks for word play.

I don't play games with words. Both Galileo and Clementine suffered major techical problems. Galilleo's problem early in the mission nearly doomed it, and it was salvaged by heroic efforts by mission team. CLementine's failure killed the second phase of the mission entirely. A great shame, Geographos is an interesting object.

As I said: 50% success rate. With stationary landers (mobile will be somewhat harder). I still think that they need at least one stationary lander mission on Mars before ExoMars. NetLander would be very nice, but was cutted long ago. :(

How many successes did NASA have in landing probes on the Moon before Surveyor? None. There were three failures to hard land simple seismometers Range 3, 4 & 5). All failed. Surveyor was, by the standards of the day are large and very sophisticated mission. Given it's use of the (then) recalcitrant Centaur upper stage it was a very risky mission. By your logic they should have done simple missions until they were successful.

Take Giotto, ESA's first deep space mission. Nobody had ever sent a probe to a comett before when the mission was authorised. Not only that, Giotto was going to a very active comet, not a dead hulk, and thus very hazardous. Giooto would make a very close approach, not a distant flyby. Comet Halley is also a very diffucult target in a retrograde, high inclination orbit. All in all a very difficult mission. Giotto proved to be a very successful mission and not onlu survived (with some damage) its encounter with Halley but used a gravity assist (another first for ESA) to visit a second comet (a first for anyone). But by your logic they should have done something simple, like a lunar orbiter.

Compared with Huygens, ExoMars is in many respects low risk. It will not be in space as long to get to its target (months not years). It will not haze to face hazards like the ring plane crossing. The atmospheric structure of Mars is much better understood than that of Titan, thanks to seven succesful entries (Mars 3 and 6, the Vikings, Pathfinder, and the MERS. The nature of the martian surface is much better understood than that of Titan (5 sites, thanks to the Vikings, Pathfinder, and the MERs). With Titan they had no idea whether it was doing to be hard or soft, solid or liquid. We even have traficability information from three sites on Mars, thanks to Sojourner and the MERs, plus the geotechnical studies of Viking. If Phoenix succeeds, the ExoMars team will have even more data for planning purposes. In contrast, using your logic, landing on Titan should not have been attempted until much more was known about the conditions.

The main risk for ExoMars is its complexity, in complex mission little details might get overlooked that can cause major failures - like the gummed lubricant that nearly doomed Galileo. However ESA has been involved in many highly complex projects, and the instrument packages have been under development for the past 6 years. So has the rover, and with six years to launch, the prototype has already had very successful field trials. As you say, we will see. But the evidence is that ESA have the background knowledge from previous Mars missions and the in-house experience to make this mission a success and it is not (to quote your insulting phrase) a "wet dream". Not that such confidence means assured success, there is always the chance of launch (Mars 96) or Earth departure (CONTOUR) failure or unexpected enviromental conditions (Beagle 2) dooming an otherwise excellent mission.

Getting back to the subject of this thread, which is Phoenix, is your silence on the subject and indication that you now recognise that this mission is not (in your original terms) a "toy" but a valid mission that will generate very useful and long awaited data?

Jon

MaDeR

29-December-2006, 10:25 AM

First it was ESA had no experience, then it was no experience with landers and now its no experience with rovers. That's moving the goal posts.

"Moving goal posts", eh?
This contraption should be a great toy to learn landing on Mars for boys and girls from ESA (considering their wet dreams about ExoMars)
I talked about ESA (in)experience with landers (stationary and mobile) on Mars or anywhere from beginning. Apparently you seen only "wet dream" part. Ah well.

How are they to gain experience except by sending a rover?
By, for example, sending stationary lander (as simpler, faster, less expensive, not that delicate as mobile rover etc)? But without Pillinger, please.

There is a first time for everyone, even NASA. Before Sojourner, NASA had not done a planetary rover either.
First, there was Vikings. Secondly, it was combo - lander with small rover. Now, we have MERs. This is gatherning and gaining experience with landing and operating landers and mobile rovers. I do not see this with ESA - they want their own mobile super-duper-rover now. And they haven't land even one small, simple lander on Mars succesfully. This would be not that bad (as you said, "there is a first time for everyone" and I agree fully with that), but fate of Beagle 2 convince me that they need another stationary lander mission before mobile rover mission...

How many successes did NASA have in landing probes on the Moon before Surveyor? None. There were three failures to hard land
Impact, not "hard land". Playing words again?

simple seismometers Range 3, 4 & 5). All failed.
I checked what you said on Wikipedia.
First Ranger was in '61, last in '65 (in total nine). Last three (block 3) was full success (launched and impacted as designed).
First Surveyor was in '66...

So, what you said was false. :naughty:

By your logic they should have done simple missions until they were successful.
Looks like "my logic" was known in NASA, because it was exactly that they do.

Take Giotto, ESA's first deep space mission. Nobody had ever sent a probe to a comett before when the mission was authorised.
"Authorised"? Another word play. I do not know when Vega 1, Vega 2, Suisei, Sakigake and ICE was authorised, but in my opinion this is not important. Existing of "Halley Amada" (and implications in this context) is important. At least you got one fact right - this was a first ESA deep space mission.

...All in all a very difficult mission.
Yes. They risked and win. All better for them, but I do not like risking every time and taking harder (and more costly) tasks than neccessary.

But by your logic they should have done something simple, like a lunar orbiter.
This is not "deep space" mission.

In contrast, using your logic, landing on Titan should not have been attempted until much more was known about the conditions.
Really? I looked in archives on BAUT some time ago about Huygens, there was some folk that "predicted" crash of Huygens because of some crackpot physics. But my point is: you all declared that this mission was meant to be atmospheric probe, surviving landing was only a nice bonus. So it was not too ambitious mission. You choose bad example.

(in your original terms) a "toy"
Most degoratory term what I used was "contraption", not "toy". This is normal on this board to accuse people about things that they never said? This happens again and again... :mad:

valid mission that will generate very useful and long awaited data?
Yes, I'm convinced. Unfoturnately, not from you. Djellison explained this much better. You have instead false claims and sometime interesting choice of words.

djellison

29-December-2006, 05:59 PM

But without Pillinger, please.

You must have been gutted when Richard Cook ( who headed up MPL ) was involved in MER...but...whadda you know.. MER worked! The very best way to recover from a failure is to take the same team - make SOME changes - but leave those with the important experience in place to carry forward.

The mistake Pillinger made was to try and do too much, with too little, in too short a time. He didn't design the Beagle 2 landing system, he's a scientist. The instrumentation he headed up for Beagle 2 was, and remains, exceptional. It forms the basis of the Pasteur payload for Exomars - and again, that is a good think. The experience of building a payload for the surface of Mars is a valuable one - and that experience is valuable in trying again.

Meanwhile, ESA have done everything that it should in a prelude to a Mars lander - they did deep space, they did Mars orbit - and now they're trying Mars Landing. To be honest, the content of that Mars Lander doesn't actually matter. You seem to be mixing the difficulty in landing ( which has little relation to the actual payload itself ) and the difficulty in building a functioning rover. As a Brit who pays taxes that fund ESA - I am glad that ESA is doing ExoMars and have as much confidence in the ESA team as I do in the JPL team in such a task.

Doug

JonClarke

29-December-2006, 09:24 PM

By, for example, sending stationary lander (as simpler, faster, less expensive, not that delicate as mobile rover etc)? But without Pillinger, please.

See Doug's comment, which I concur with completely. Pillinger is a brilliant scientist who deserves your respect. Many of the people involved with Beagle 2, both at the Open University and in industry, are also involved with ExoMars, as they shoul;d be. Pillinger has MS, so I hope he lives long enough to see his experiments working on Mars. Since you condemn the Beagle 2 team after a single failure, I assume you woudl similar condemn the NASA team that built the ranger missions, with 6 straight failures before their first success. or the Russians, who got data from the surface of Venus on their 17th attempt.

First, there was Vikings. Secondly, it was combo - lander with small rover. Now, we have MERs. This is gatherning and gaining experience with landing and operating landers and mobile rovers. I do not see this with ESA - they want their own mobile super-duper-rover now. And they haven't land even one small, simple lander on Mars succesfully. This would be not that bad (as you said, "there is a first time for everyone" and I agree fully with that), but fate of Beagle 2 convince me that they need another stationary lander mission before mobile rover mission...

The Vikings were not simple missions. They were the largest and most complex missions ever to land on Mars. And they were first up. NASA decided to do a complex mission right from the start. Pathfinder and Sojourner were simple because the management philosophy at that time was for faster cheaper better.

Impact, not "hard land". Playing words again?

Like I have told you before, I don't play with words. There is a difference between a hard lander probe and an impact one. A hard lander id designed to survive its landing and return data from the target surface. An impact probe returns data up to the moment of impact.

I checked what you said on Wikipedia.
First Ranger was in '61, last in '65 (in total nine). Last three (block 3) was full success (launched and impacted as designed).

So, what you said was false. :naughty:

What I said was correct. If you had read the wikipedia article in more detail you would have seen that the Block 1 rangers were Earth orbit test craft, block 2 was designed to hard land a seismometer on the Moon (and thus return data after landing), and block 3 were impact probes 9designed to return data up to impact). Different missions all together.

Looks like "my logic" was known in NASA, because it was exactly that they do.

They didn't. Even though their simple hard lander missions were complete failures they went ahead with a more complex series of missions - and succeeded.

"Authorised"? Another word play. I do not know when Vega 1, Vega 2, Suisei, Sakigake and ICE was authorised, but in my opinion this is not important. Existing of "Halley Amada" (and implications in this context) is important. At least you got one fact right - this was a first ESA deep space mission.

No playing with words. When ESA committed to building Giotto nobody had sent a probe to a comet. This is fact. There was no cometary mission experience or close up data to build on. Unlike ExoMars where there is a wealth of experience available on building mars landers and rovers and what sort of conditions to expect during EDL and when traversing the surface.

This is not "deep space" mission.

Most people would regard any lunar probe as a deep space misson because it is beyond both low and high earth orbit. The propulsive, communication, and tracking issues involved with a lunar mission are essentially the same as those needed for other deep space missions and different to those required for a spacecraft in Earth orbit. Furthermore a lunar orbit mission requires capture by the graviational well of another body and orbit insertion bruns, exactly as required on any other deep space mission.

Really? I looked in archives on BAUT some time ago about Huygens, there was some folk that "predicted" crash of Huygens because of some crackpot physics. But my point is: you all declared that this mission was meant to be atmospheric probe, surviving landing was only a nice bonus. So it was not too ambitious mission. You choose bad example.

Huygens not a simple descent probe. Itwas designed to survive landing on a wide range of surfaces and carried a experiment package designed to analyse a wide range of surface materials. So it is you who are wrong, not me.

Most degoratory term what I used was "contraption", not "toy". This is normal on this board to accuse people about things that they never said? This happens again and again...

Your exact words in post 43 were:

My 0,02 cents... why Phoenix is stationary lander? In NASA? To Mars? In 2007?

This contraption should be a great toy to learn landing on Mars for boys and girls from ESA (considering their wet dreams about ExoMars), but why NASA would do that joke? Hello? We have XXI century now...

So I have quoted your words exactly.

Yes, I'm convinced. Unfoturnately, not from you. Djellison explained this much better. You have instead false claims and sometime interesting choice of words.

The important thing is that you have learned. I don't care who you have learned from. To the best of my knowledge and ability I have made no false claims.

Now, since you now recognise the value of Phoenix, I strong suggest you take opinion of ExoMars to this (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=41889&highlight=ExoMars) thread if you wish to continue the discussion. Either that or a kind moderator and split off the ExoMars discussion into a new thread, perhaps with a title like: "Is ExoMars a good idea?". That way this thread can stay focussed on Phoenix.

Jon

01101001

09-January-2007, 03:38 AM

Too bad for some, the next Mars scout mission (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/jan/HQ_07003_Mars_missions.html) has these to choose from, for probable launch 2011:

1) Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution mission, or MAVEN
2) The Great Escape mission

The orbiters would study atmosphere, climate, habitability. Anyone see any rovers? Any landers?

===

Edit: See also topic NASA Selects Proposals for Future Mars Missions and Studies (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=51978).

MaDeR

10-January-2007, 12:07 PM

Nice missions, especially regarding habitalibity. I would add to competion this (http://www.dailypress.com/news/local/dp-24441sy0jan09,0,203293.story?coll=dp-news-local-final), but ah well. Looks like for this price (scout class mission) no rover is possible.

I would be most interested in sampling upper atmosphere of Mars and return this to Earth, but I don't know if budget of Scout mission allow this...

ToSeek

10-January-2007, 03:09 PM

Too bad for some, the next Mars scout mission (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2007/jan/HQ_07003_Mars_missions.html) has these to choose from, for probable launch 2011:

1) Mars Atmosphere and Volatile Evolution mission, or MAVEN
2) The Great Escape mission

The orbiters would study atmosphere, climate, habitability. Anyone see any rovers? Any landers?

Hard to do even a stationary lander on a Scout budget - Phoenix only managed it because most of the hardware was built and ready to go.

djellison

10-January-2007, 03:49 PM

I spoke to Squyres about this very issue at the DPS conference in Sept '05...MER on a Scout budget....and he said no.

ToSeek raises THE main point - Phoenix had about $100M's worth of hand-me-down from the '01 lander - without it, it couldn't be done in a Scout budget.

Doug

Doodler

10-January-2007, 06:43 PM

You lost. Context. I was talking about ESA experience with mobile rovers here. And their experience in that area is nil.

Yeah, and the US has the almighty advantage given they're currently using rovers number 2 and 3 respectively.

Get off the high horse, MaDeR, NOBODY has a great deal of experience with rovers. Despite the US being 3 for 3 at the moment, the record of success and failure with Mars related spacecraft means the statistical beast is going to bite us on the butt eventually. Not a matter of if, but when.

Rovers are virgin territory for everyone, the US is just off on a good foot. There's nothing to say the ESA can't pull one off when its appropriate to the mission.

MaDeR

11-January-2007, 07:00 AM

Yeah, and the US has the almighty advantage given they're currently using rovers number 2 and 3 respectively.
You try to be ironic, but it is actually true. Having experience with three rovers is infinitiely better than experience with zero rovers. ;)

I see that followers of Spiritual Ways of ESA downplays differences with experience, possibilities and assets (money, money, money) between ESA and NASA. Folks, this is different league and wordplays and prayings will not change this.

ToSeek

11-January-2007, 06:16 PM

Phoenix Mars Lander: The Search For A Safe Haven (http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/070110_mar_phoenix_landing.html)

As NASA prepares its Mars Phoenix spacecraft for an August launch, program officials are still trying to find a suitable landing site.

Using data from two spacecraft – Mars Odyssey and the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter -- already orbiting the red planet, mission managers are searching for a landing zone near the northern polar region where there is a permanent ice cap.

Finding the right spot has not been easy. One favored area, for example, has already been vetoed because too many large boulders with spacecraft-eating potential were spotted there.

Doodler

11-January-2007, 06:22 PM

You try to be ironic, but it is actually true. Having experience with three rovers is infinitiely better than experience with zero rovers. ;)

I see that followers of Spiritual Ways of ESA downplays differences with experience, possibilities and assets (money, money, money) between ESA and NASA. Folks, this is different league and wordplays and prayings will not change this.

We started somewhere, and I wouldn't doubt that some of the US's rover eggheads wouldn't be on the phone or on a plane in a heartbeat if they wanted advice.

galacsi

11-January-2007, 07:31 PM

Ah and therein lies the issue. Phoenix, like all planetary probes are designed for science, not just for pretty pictures (though I'll agree it's good for PR).

Just a remark :

I love pretty pictures of Mars and many people in the world share my opinion. Sending a rover on Mars is no more money than a hollywood blockbuster. So science is not the only valuable payload.

And this science is about digging question already asked. A rover can discover new questions.

This said , I have nothing against PHOENIX.
Seems quite sensible and serious.

01101001

11-January-2007, 07:46 PM

Sending a rover on Mars is no more money than a hollywood blockbuster.

Estimated record production cost, Superman Returns, $260 million. Mars Pathfinder launch and operation, estimated: $265 million.

Pretty good. Different generations and dollars, but pretty good.

MER missions, 2 rovers, estimated $820 million. Cheaper by the pair. $410 million per. About a movie-and-a-half.

Doodler

11-January-2007, 07:52 PM

Estimated record production cost, Superman Returns, $260 million. Mars Pathfinder launch and operation, estimated: $265 million.

Pretty good. Different generations and dollars, but pretty good.

MER missions, 2 rovers, estimated $820 million. Cheaper by the pair. $410 million per. About a movie-and-a-half.

The MERs could effectively be considered separate projects, given that they're not exactly tripping over each other in terms of what they're studying.

01101001

11-January-2007, 10:45 PM

The MERs could effectively be considered separate projects, given that they're not exactly tripping over each other in terms of what they're studying.

Certainly. I still have to think their unit cost is cheaper because we sent two. I think a single MER would have cost more than half the pair -- for purposes of comparing movie production costs and Mars rovers.

djellison

11-January-2007, 11:15 PM

The second rover added about 50% - from about $600m to about $850m - very very roughly.

Doug

ToSeek

17-January-2007, 07:44 PM

Phoenix landing site woes (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000830/)

Aviation Now (http://www.aviationnow.com/avnow/news/channel_space_story.jsp?id=news/PHOE01107.xml) and The Rocky Mountain News (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5284271,00.html) have reported on two problems facing the Phoenix (http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/phoenix/) Mars lander, which is supposed to launch this summer: a $10 to $35 million cost overrun (which, though not at all trivial, does have an easy enough fix, though the future consequences to other Mars missions may be tough to stomach) and a serious hazard within the planned landing region (which is harder to fix).

ToSeek

31-January-2007, 06:11 PM

Mars mission clears hurdle
Phoenix project proceeds despite cost overruns (http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/local/article/0,1299,DRMN_15_5317599,00.html)

NASA's Colorado-built Phoenix mission to Mars just dodged a lethal bullet.

Mission leaders survived a "termination review" in Washington, D.C., on Friday and gained approval to proceed toward an August launch despite cost overruns, said lead mission scientist Peter Smith of the University of Arizona.

Launch window

17-February-2007, 08:28 AM

I hear it will be launched by the Delta II, a number of instruments from the cancelled 'Scout' and 'Surveyor-2001' will be making a comeback

djellison

17-February-2007, 03:17 PM

Something of a mix of missions there. Phoenix is the first of the Mars Scout program missions (every other opportunity - in the $400M ish range)

It takes the 'chassis' of the cancelled 2001 lander - but the instruments are mainly ones designed for the failed 1998 Mars Polar Lander. The instruments for the 2001 Lander ( called APEX.. Athena Precursor Experiment as a Mossbauer, Mini-TES and Pancam ) ended up as MER's Athena Payload .

Doug

Launch window

23-February-2007, 06:02 PM

ToSeek

13-April-2007, 07:26 PM

Undergraduate paves way for NASA Mars mission (http://news-info.wustl.edu/tips/page/normal/8985.html)

A team led by Raymond E. Arvidson, Ph.D., James S. McDonnell Distinguished University Professor in Arts & Sciences, has been analyzing images taken from a NASA instrument to make sure that the Phoenix spacecraft lands in a spot on the Red planet's northern plains that is relatively rock-free.

"The craft has to land in a place unlikely to have slopes more than 16 degrees relative to horizontal, and it shouldn't have very many rocks higher than 30 to 40 centimeters (roughly one foot high)," said Arvidson, who also is chair of the Washington University earth and planetary sciences department. "We've been looking for locations big enough and homogeneous enough for a high probability of a successful landing. The issue isn't slopes. The issue is rocks."

foreignkid

20-April-2007, 03:35 AM

I am SO excited about this mission. I have just sent my application form for the Student Interns Program (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/edu_psip.php). Hopefully, nothing will go wrong, and I will be picked to spend a year and a half on this project. Yeah!!

OneHotJupiter

26-April-2007, 03:59 PM

Wow , I feel sorry for Venus Lander It would be awful to live like that:eh:

On the other hand I cannot wait for those Martian Polar pics , I have waited far too long for them , and I believe it WILL revolutionize our understanding of Mars.

It will NOT fail and is only the first of the scout missions that will lead us to the greatest adventure in space exploration history , Another giant leap and a human on Mars!

OneHotJupiter

26-April-2007, 04:00 PM

suntrack2

26-April-2007, 05:18 PM

I heard that during the phoenix mission a dvd will be leave on mars, and if it is found to the spacies of mars then it will be more remarkable and amazing one. :)

ToSeek

26-April-2007, 07:34 PM

I heard that during the phoenix mission a dvd will be leave on mars, and if it is found to the spacies of mars then it will be more remarkable and amazing one. :)

The Phoenix DVD (http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/messages/phoenix_dvd.html)

Launch window

27-April-2007, 04:23 PM

The Phoenix DVD (http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/messages/phoenix_dvd.html)

Did you put your name on it ?

ToSeek

27-April-2007, 06:06 PM

Probably. Not sure any more. I've put my name (and my friends') on lots of these thing.

ToSeek

08-May-2007, 07:40 PM

Phoenix has arrived at KSC (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00000963/)

NASA's next Mars mission, the Phoenix lander (http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/phoenix/), has winged its way to Florida aboard a C-17 transport plane, according to Leonard David (http://www.livescience.com/blogs/2007/05/07/moving-day-to-mars/), who apparently got to hitch a ride with the spacecraft yesterday. He says the landing was smooth, so Phoenix should be good to go for its final assembly and testing before its planned August launch. It's going to be an exciting summer, bracketed by the launch of two small but capable missions, Dawn to the asteroid belt (http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/dawn/) and Phoenix to Mars (http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/phoenix/)!

Launch window

09-May-2007, 02:02 AM

Emily sure is great for keeping up to date with this stuff, are any baut members going to be at Canaveral for the launch ?

suntrack2

09-May-2007, 12:27 PM

I heard that a "dvd" will be place on mars of "space enthusiasts of the world" by embossing their names on this dvd? during this mission, the phoenix mission is going to leave a special dvd on mars ? :)

01101001

09-May-2007, 01:02 PM

I heard that a "dvd" will be place on mars of "space enthusiasts of the world" by embossing their names on this dvd?

Planetary Society: Phoenix DVD (http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/messages/phoenix_dvd.html)

Thousands of people from around the world, joined our age's visionaries of space exploration by adding their names to this remarkable message to the future! The Planetary Society collected names, which will travel to Mars on the Phoenix DVD.

(But, it's too late to add a name now.)

suntrack2

10-May-2007, 11:20 AM

Planetary Society: Phoenix DVD (http://www.planetary.org/programs/projects/messages/phoenix_dvd.html)

(But, it's too late to add a name now.) thanks, I am too late to add the name in the dvd. if the same dvd found to alien of mars, then will they capable to read it!! :)

sunil

suntrack2

26-May-2007, 05:21 PM

What I learnt from the news that most probably in coming months the journey will start towards mars by a phoenix mission, I think it will remarkably great achievement by the concerns (viz. canandian space agency, Arizona states University, nochatel University Switzerland, nasa, ) combine. I have also heard that a CD will be leave on the surface of the mars, its a great idea.

So what we are expecting from this mission on mars? a. water search, b. oxygen search, c. dwelable place or not.

Today the world's eyes are raised towards this important mission.

How many days it will take to reach there on mars! This is the sort of mission which kept the people(the concerns) more accurate, more early after the last mission, this will assist in performing the goal which was set by them towards the different researches.

The scientists and team as whole there are greatly doing the things differently and this commendable for all of us.

sunil

01101001

26-May-2007, 06:11 PM

I have also heard that a CD will be leave on the surface of the mars, its a great idea.

It's not exactly a new idea. Among the earliest, second-sol images Mars Exploration Rover Spirit sent back to Earth were images of the CD carried on its lander base: from Spirit :: Panoramic Camera :: Sol 002 (http://marsrovers.jpl.nasa.gov/gallery/all/2/p/002/2P126556804EFF0200P2205L1M1.HTML)

Many big missions carry/will carry/carried CDs/DVDs/microchips, by recollection, among them: Beagle II, Cassini, Dawn, Deep Impact, Huygens, Mars Polar Lander, MER-A, MER-B, New Horizons, Phoenix, SELENE, Stardust.

The idea probably goes back to the Pioneer plaques (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pioneer_plaque) and Voyager record (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyager_Golden_Record), though not all major missions did it.

So what we are expecting from this mission on mars? a. water search, b. oxygen search, c. dwelable place or not.

I don't know what we are expecting, but the mission page (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/mission.php) describes the mission:

Phoenix is designed to study the history of water and habitability potential in the Martian arctic's ice-rich soil.

How many days it will take to reach there on mars!

Cruise-phase page (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/phases03.php):

The cruise phase lasts for approximately 10 months as Phoenix makes its way to Mars.

For details, see University of Arizona/NASA Phoenix Mars Mission Pages (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/mission.php).

ToSeek

26-May-2007, 07:34 PM

Threads merged.

01101001

06-July-2007, 12:28 AM

(Just) One Image Planned During Descent of Phoenix (http://mars.jpl.nasa.gov/spotlight/20070705_PHX.html)

Extensive testing of NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander in preparation for an August launch has uncovered a potential data-handling problem in time to modify plans for use of a camera during the final minutes of arrival at Mars.

The testing results led to a decision to take just one photograph with the spacecraft's Mars Descent Imager. The mission will still be capable of accomplishing all of its science goals.

===

Phoenix Mission Page (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/): 28 days to launch

3488

10-July-2007, 12:25 AM

Possible landing site chosen?

Andrew Brown.

01101001

10-July-2007, 12:28 AM

Possible landing site chosen?

Green Valley? The more excitable woo-meisters won't need false colors to incorrectly conclude Mars is lush with plant life if NASA sends a lander to Green Valley.

January, 2007, Planetary Society Planetary News: A Green Valley for Phoenix (http://www.planetary.org/news/2007/0125_A_Green_Valley_for_Phoenix.html):

One tool that the landing site working group used to determine the safety of the landing regions painted each region in green, yellow, or red depending on whether the site was safe, contained potential problems, or was too hazardous. And the Box 1 valley "is so green that it's been labeled 'Green Valley,'" Smith said.

3488

10-July-2007, 12:39 AM

Hi there, hopefully the woo-woos will not latch onto that. I do not know why that valley in Scandia Colles is called Green Valley?

It will be anything but green. Minus 140 Celsius Winter, frigid cold still in Summer, very little atmosphere.

No doubt the woo-woos will make capital out of it.

Unfortunately.

Andrew Brown.

JonClarke

10-July-2007, 01:05 AM

Hi there, hopefully to woo-woos will not latch onto that. I do not know why that valley in Scandia Colles is called Green Valley?

Hi Andrew

It's not listed in the planetary gazetteer as a formal name. So I assume it is somebody's idea of irony.

Incidently there is a crater on Mars called Green, after the British astronomer Nathan Green (1823-1899). It's at 52.7 degrees S and 8.4 degrees W. Next to Roddenberry. :)

Jon

01101001

10-July-2007, 01:15 AM

It's not listed in the planetary gazetteer as a formal name. So I assume it is somebody's idea of irony.

I think I may have solved that with the Planetary Society reference above (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/16616-phoenix-mission-4.html#post1026977), probably edited in after Andrew Brown replied.

3488

11-July-2007, 12:55 PM

I am really looking forward to this mission immensely.

It matters not that Phoenix is a static lander. The potential of a first successful landing at a very high latitude on Mars is very exciting. The previous, Viking 2 at 48 North in Utopia, watched as the seasons changed, etc.

Of course with Phoenix, that will not be possible, due to the solar power requirements & the fact that CO2 snow is likely to be about 1 to 2 metres deep, come the Winter / Spring.

Phoenix, assuming & hoping for a successful landing, will answer many first level questions, such as the current hydration levels in high latitude soils, Summer high latitude temperature swings, IR imaging will reveal much about the surface composition, trenching will reveal much about the possible organic chemistry in the surrounding soils.

Regarding pictures. There will undoubtably be many great ones, even if the surface does seem rather featureless from orbital altitudes.

One thing that has not escaped my attention, is that Phoenix will be in the land of the Martian Midnight Sun. I hope that images will be put together to show the Sun approaching, then rising from the northern horizon!!!!

Also there may be some interesting cloud formations & weird atmospheric effects. Hopefully Phoenix may even last well into the Autumn as sunlight will still be fairly plentiful till just before the equinox.

Perhaps we may even witness the accumulation of some CO2 'snow', before the intense cold kills the craft off?

At the Mid Winter Solstice at this site, the Sun does not rise at all, but does come to about 2 degress of the southern horizon at noon. If Phoenix is still alive then, there could be some spectacular atmospheric glows & twilights. It is a moot point, because that cannot happen with Phoenix, but is an interesting thought, or at least I think so anyway.

There are other things that we could all wish for. I would like to see a seismometer added, recording Marsquakes. However that is not included, but that does not mean that I will go off in a sulk & say that Phoenix is a crappy mission.

If everybody had everything included that they wanted, Phoenix will be more like Battlestar Galactica!!!!!! Huge, very heavy, even under the Martian 38% surface gravity, not to mention a huge launcher to launch it from Earth.

Phoenix if successful will be one for the books. It is a great, highly capable craft, the product of dedicated people at JPL / NASA & some of the comments earlier in this thread did seem unrespectful.

I for one & I know Jon Clarke is also, really looking forward to this one.

Image below is the central portion of a MRO HiRISE image of the favoured landing site in Green Valley, Scandia Colles.

Andrew Brown.

01101001

14-July-2007, 07:22 PM

In the countdown thread:

So the lander uses rockets to retard its rate at landing, but then it doesn't move. Won't the rockets contaminate the soil it's analyzing?

(Might as well keep the mission discussion here.)

University of Michigan press release: U-M scientists simulate the effects of blowing Mars dust on NASA's Phoenix lander (http://www.ns.umich.edu/htdocs/releases/story.php?id=5903)

Gusting winds and the pulsating exhaust plumes from the Phoenix spacecraft's landing engines could complicate NASA's efforts to sample frozen soil from the surface of Mars[...]

Renno and U-M doctoral candidate Manish Mehta said there are several concerns about the Phoenix thrusters. They said the supersonic exhaust jets could: buffet the spindly, three-legged probe during the critical final seconds before landing; scour the landing site and strip it of loose soil; and possibly contaminate the martian soil with hydrazine, the liquid fuel used in the thrusters.
"These experiments are mainly run to provide insight to the Phoenix team, so they know what to expect and can somewhat prepare for it," said Mehta, who will use the results in his doctoral dissertation. U-M aerospace engineering senior Neal Rusche and other students from Renno's Multidisciplinary Engineering Design course also are on the team.

3488

16-July-2007, 03:42 PM

I have heard of this as being a potential problem.

JPL does not think so. The arm probably reaches far enough away to miss any 'blast zone' from the retro rockets.

The only way we will know for sure, is after landing.

Was this a problem with Viking 1 & Viking 2?

Andrew Brown.

01101001

16-July-2007, 04:29 PM

Was this a problem with Viking 1 & Viking 2?

Read National Academies of Science Press, Project Openbook, Preventing the Forward Contamination of Mars, p. 148 (http://books.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11381&page=148)

(I don't get what this source is -- perhaps a machine OCR'd catalog entry for ordering the material. They say it's for search engines and not to cut and paste, so I'll summarize.)

In Viking testing they found a contamination problem, so they redesigned the nozzles to lessen contamination, and that reduced erosion too. Tests showed traces of HCN and that was attributed to a fuel impurity which was eliminated, using purified hydrazine -- used hence, though that still gives small contamination of ammonia, nitrogen, and a bit of water, which must be taken into account.

Seems like there's always some contamination and you test your equipment beforehand to know what to expect.

3488

16-July-2007, 05:52 PM

Thank you for your reply.

I would have thought as much. As the composition of the fuel of the retrorockets is known, all that needs to be done
is if there is touchdown contamination, just deduct those readings from the total. What is left, is obviously martian.

Relly, that is where a air bag landing would be better, but of course the reach of the arm is given the reason not to use them in this case.

I do not see this contamination issue, being such a big deal.

However, this does not dent my enthusiasm for this mission one bit.

Andrew Brown.

ToSeek

30-July-2007, 03:42 PM

Two articles from Florida Today:

Phoenix to taste Mars water (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070730/NEWS02/707300326/1007/rss06)

After its launch, cruise through space and suspenseful descent, NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander will do what no other spacecraft has done: drink Martian water.

"We're going to be able to go and, if we're successful at doing it, actually be able to taste the water on another planet," said project manager Barry Goldstein of the Jet Propulsion Laboratory in California.

Entombment would be cool ending for lander (http://www.floridatoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070730/NEWS02/707300314/1007/rss06)

If Phoenix Mars Lander survives its primary three-month mission and a whole lot of cold afterward, it may get to witness its own frigid death.

Eventually, the spacecraft will be encased in ice.

01101001

30-July-2007, 09:27 PM

NASA Ames news release: NASA Scientists to Discuss Phoenix Mission to Mars (http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/news/releases/2007/07_46AR.html)

During a televised mission science briefing originating in Florida, Wednesday, Aug. 1, at about 11:40 a.m. PDT [1440 EDT, 1840 UTC] NASA Ames Research Center will provide local reporters an opportunity to ask questions of NASA scientists about the Phoenix spacecraft's mission to Mars. Phoenix is scheduled to lift off Friday, Aug. 3, from Cape Canaveral Air Force Station, Fla.
[...]
Phoenix scientists available at NASA Ames will be:

Chris McKay, Phoenix co-investigator, biological interpretation, from NASA Ames
Aaron Zent, Phoenix co-investigator, soil-atmosphere interaction, from NASA Ames
Richard Quinn, Phoenix research, NASA Ames and SETI Institute, Mountain View, Calif.
John Marshall, Phoenix co-investigator, soil science, geological studies, SETI Institute, Mountain View, Calif.

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

01101001

30-July-2007, 10:51 PM

The Planetary Society's Library for Mars Ready for Launch (http://www.planetary.org/about/press/releases/2007/0730_The_Planetary_Societys_Library_for.html)

The Planetary Society's silica-glass DVD is ready to launch to Mars on board Phoenix, NASA's newest Scout mission led by Principal Investigator Peter Smith at the University of Arizona. Attached to the deck of the Phoenix lander, the DVD includes Visions of Mars, a collection of 19th and 20th century stories, essays and art inspired by the Red Planet, as well as the names of over a quarter million inhabitants of Earth. The disk will appear in some of the calibration images that Phoenix sends back from the Martian surface.

"Since The Planetary Society's disk should last for centuries on Mars, we hope astronauts at some future date will enjoy the visionary works we have sent in this first Martian library," said Louis Friedman, Executive Director of The Planetary Society, who conceived the idea for Visions of Mars. "These tales and images have inspired generations about the wonder of space, including many men and women who are now researchers and engineers in the space program."

This first library on Mars contains materials that represent 20 nations and cultures. Visions of Mars includes works by The Planetary Society's co-founder Carl Sagan, Isaac Asimov, Ray Bradbury, Kim Stanley Robinson, Arthur C. Clarke, Percival Lowell and many more.

Cugel

31-July-2007, 03:27 PM

Launch attempt for Friday scrubbed, bad weather preventing second stage fueling.

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/070716windows.html

01101001

31-July-2007, 05:40 PM

Launch attempt for Friday scrubbed, bad weather preventing second stage fueling.

http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/070716windows.html

That was a table of launch windows.

Oh, here's the news: Mission Status: TUESDAY, JULY 31, 2007 (http://www.spaceflightnow.com/mars/phoenix/status.html)

Anticipated stormy weather in the Cape Canaveral area this afternoon has caused a ripple effect in preparations to launch the Phoenix lander bound for Mars, forcing NASA to postpone the liftoff aboard a Delta 2 rocket by 24 hours.

Originally set for early Friday, the launch has been rescheduled for Saturday morning. Liftoff will be possible during a pair of one-second launch windows at 5:26 and 6:02 a.m. EDT.

I think I'll put this in the countdown thread, seeing as how it's...

ToSeek

02-August-2007, 02:21 PM

I'd suggest putting launch information in the launch thread and save this thread for general mission information.

01101001

04-August-2007, 02:58 PM

And, now, after an oh-so-smooth launch (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/61963-phoenix-mars-mission-countdown-launch-thread.html), the Phoenix Mission has entered cruise stage.

NASA Phoenix Mars Mission news: Phoenix Heads for Mars, Spacecraft Healthy (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/)

The Phoenix spacecraft has separated from the Delta II rocket and ground controllers at NASA's Deep Space Network have acquired its signal and begun assessing its health. The solar panels that will power the mission's cruise phase will be deployed and Phoenix will be pointed to best receive solar power and communicate with Earth.

On to a safe Mars entry, descent and landing in May 2008!

...

...

Are we there yet?

01101001

05-August-2007, 05:55 PM

Are we there yet?

Not yet, but in a look forward...

NASA Phoenix Mission, Feature: Helping Phoenix Land (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/mission/phoenix-edl.html)

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/183937main_phoenix-landing-330.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/mission/phoenix-edl.html)

"[NASA] Langley's contributions are in a number of areas," said Prasun Desai, senior engineer and Entry, Descent and Landing (EDL) lead engineer. "Our role is to help with the development of the EDL system. We're supporting JPL and Lockheed Martin by defining the requirements for Phoenix's design so that it can meet what it needs to do when it gets to Mars to land safely."
[...]
As Phoenix makes the nine-month journey to Mars, the workload of the Langley engineers will intensify as they prepare for a successful entry, descent and landing -- the period lasting three hours before the spacecraft enters the Mars' atmosphere until it safely reaches the ground.

"Three months before landing is when things will really get busy for us," said Desai.

During the "cruise phase," or Phoenix's flight, Langley will explore different scenarios of possible extreme conditions on Mars to get an idea of how the system will respond. According to Desai, exploring such scenarios enables engineers to fine-tune the system and make it as "robust as possible."

(A tad old, but interesting, but I confess I do this mainly to bump the mission topic above the launch topic.)

01101001

06-August-2007, 04:27 PM

A new countdown clock!

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown:
292 Days 22 Hours 33 Minutes 00 Seconds

RGClark

08-August-2007, 11:22 AM

An archive of Phoenix science and launch news conferences as well as other NASA news conferences is available here:

Space-multimedia.
http://www.space-multimedia.nl.eu.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=category&sectionid=1&id=1&Itemid=2

Bob Clark

01101001

08-August-2007, 02:45 PM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown:
291 Days 00 Hours 16 Minutes 00 Seconds

(No. Don't intend to do this frequently. I'm just try to keep this topic more alive than the countdown and launch thread which won't seem to gracefully retire.)

01101001

10-August-2007, 02:41 AM

Nothing new, really.

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown:
289 Days 12 Hours 20 Minutes 00 Seconds

This is pre-launch old. Phoenix landing ellipses (http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/183675main_ra3-ellipse-label-hires.jpg). It will be a northwest to southeast ellipse, for the launch early in the range. The Phoenix team probably already has refinements on this.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/183679main_ra3-ellipse-unlabel-th.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/ra3-ellipse.html)

Google Mars (http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=68.35&lon=-127&zoom=7) for context, about the same scale. Heimdall crater is prominent mid-right.

MRO image: Sweet spot for landing (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/ra5-hirise.html)

One hopes in about 10 months MRO may re-image this area and spy a tiny little Phoenix lander sitting there.

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/183685main_ra5-hirise-th.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/ra5-hirise.html)

Other Phoenix images (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/index.html)

01101001

11-August-2007, 12:41 AM

NASA JPL Phoenix press release: NASA's Mars-Bound Phoenix Adjusts Course Successfully (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-088)

http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/images/phoenix/phoenix-capsule-th.jpg (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-088)

NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander today accomplished the first and largest of six course corrections planned during the spacecraft's flight from Earth to Mars.
[...]
"All the subsystems are functioning as expected with few deviations from predicted performance," said Joe Guinn, Phoenix mission system manager at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.

Key activities in the next few weeks will include checkouts of science instruments, radar and the communication system that will be used during and after the landing.

01101001

12-August-2007, 08:52 PM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown:
287 Days 06 Hours 10 Minutes 00 Seconds

Where is Phoenix? (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/where_phoenix.php) (JPL Solar System Simulator (http://space.jpl.nasa.gov/) now includes Phoenix spacecraft.)

5999

ToSeek

05-September-2007, 08:35 PM

Phoenix Mars Lander Status Report: Radar and Other Gear Pass Checkouts (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/news/news.cfm?release=2007-094a)

Two crucial tools for a successful landing of America's latest mission to Mars, the radar and UHF radio on NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander, have passed in-flight checkouts.

01101001

02-November-2007, 06:31 PM

NASA Phoenix Mars Lander Status Report: Tasks En Route to Mars Include Course Tweak, Gear Checks (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20071030.html)

NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander, launched on Aug. 4 and headed to Mars, fired its four trajectory correction thrusters Wednesday for only the second time. The 45.9-second burn nudged the spacecraft just the right amount to put it on a course to arrive at the red planet seven months from today.
[...]
Initial in-flight checks of all the science instruments were completed with Oct. 26 testing of the Canadian-provided weather station, which includes a laser-reflection device called a lidar. "With the activation of Canada's weather station, the testing of the precision lidar instrument and the temperature and pressure sensors, we will be receiving our first space weather report from Phoenix as it continues its voyage to Mars," said Alain Berinstain, Director of Planetary Exploration and Space Astronomy at the Canadian Space Agency.

KaiYeves

02-November-2007, 07:52 PM

Phoenix rising, up to Mars.

01101001

16-November-2007, 03:44 AM

Planetary Society Weblog: No descent images or sounds from Phoenix (http://planetary.org/blog/article/00001234/)

Not one MARDI image.

It's got to be incredibly frustrating to have spent the thousands of hours on designing, building, and testing an instrument for a space mission -- not to mention the much less fun thousands of hours writing and wrangling over documentation and endless meetings -- and see your instrument launch toward Mars, only to be told that it's going to be turned off. I understand why the mission team made the decision that it did, but that doesn't decrease my chagrin. Especially because MARDI was also equipped with a microphone that could have returned sounds from the descent.

djellison

16-November-2007, 12:17 PM

But - the trade is that we get MARDI on MSL. A hard choice, but the right choice has been made.

01101001

27-December-2007, 10:36 PM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown:
150 Days 00 Hours 00 Minutes 00 Seconds

Lands May 25, 2008

Total cruise duration is 295 days, so Phoenix is very close to mid-voyage.

01101001

26-February-2008, 04:44 AM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing countdown:
89 days 18 hours 00 minutes 00 seconds
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_69.jpg (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Lands May 25, 2008

Phoenix has less than one-third of its voyage to go.

EndeavorRX7

26-February-2008, 04:46 AM

May 25th nice...Memorial Weekend.

KaiYeves

26-February-2008, 09:42 PM

May? I thought they said summer. Oh well, sooner is cooler!

3488

26-February-2008, 10:23 PM

Good point KaiYeves, late Spring is before the Summer, so less of a wait. :lol:

83 Days, 0 hour, 21 minutes, 50 seconds to landing. Not too long now.

Oxymoron is, that the Martian Northern Summer Soltice is on Tuesday 24th June 2008, just three days after the equivalent on Earth.

Mars Phoenix will spend the main part of the primary mission under continuous sunlight.

At the local midnight, the Sun will dip to about 2 degrees of the northern horizon (assuming level ground) as seen from Mars Phoenix.

Approx three months (sol 87) after landing, the Sun will set very briefly from the landing site, but the nights will lengthen quicky.

Assuming MarsPhoenix is still operational at this point, hopefully we will get to see the first frosts, etc.

I hoe Mars Phoenix operates well past the Autumn Equinox, but that I know will probably not happen.

Andrew Brown.

KaiYeves

26-February-2008, 10:37 PM

I always think of May as Star Wars month, but this is easily as cool!
Go Phoenix!

ToSeek

29-February-2008, 01:56 AM

JPL press release:

Spacecraft at Mars Prepare to Welcome New Kid on the Block

Three Mars spacecraft are adjusting their orbits to be over the right place at the right time to listen to NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander as it enters the Martian atmosphere on May 25.

Every landing on Mars is difficult. Having three orbiters track Phoenix as it streaks through Mars' atmosphere will set a new standard for coverage of critical events during a robotic landing. The data stream from Phoenix will be relayed to Earth throughout the spacecraft's entry, descent and landing events. If all goes well, the flow of information will continue for one minute after touchdown.

"We will have diagnostic information from the top of the atmosphere to the ground that will give us insight into the landing sequence," said David Spencer of NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif., deputy project manager for the Phoenix Mars Lander project. This information would be valuable in the event of a problem with the landing and has the potential to benefit the design of future landers.

Bob Mase, mission manager at JPL for NASA's Mars Odyssey orbiter, said, "We have been precisely managing the trajectory to position Odyssey overhead when Phoenix arrives, to ensure we are ready for communications. Without those adjustments, we would be almost exactly on the opposite side of the planet when Phoenix arrives."

NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is making adjustments in bigger increments, with one firing of thrusters on Feb. 6 and at least one more planned in April. The European Space Agency's Mars Express orbiter has also maneuvered to be in place to record transmissions from Phoenix during the landing. Even the NASA rovers Spirit and Opportunity have been aiding preparations, simulating transmissions from Phoenix for tests with the orbiters.

Launched on Aug. 4, 2007, Phoenix will land farther north than any previous mission to Mars, at a site expected to have frozen water mixed with soil just below the surface. The lander will use a robotic arm to put samples of soil and ice into laboratory instruments. One goal is to study whether the site has ever had conditions favorable for supporting microbial life.

Phoenix will hit the top of the Martian atmosphere at 5.7 kilometers per second (12,750 miles per hour). In the next seven minutes, it will use heat-shield friction, a parachute, then descent rockets to slow to about 2.4 meters per second (5.4 mph) before landing on three legs.

Odyssey will tilt from its normally downward-looking orientation to turn its ultrahigh-frequency (UHF) antenna toward the descending Phoenix. As Odyssey receives a stream of information from Phoenix, it will immediately relay the stream to Earth with a more capable high-gain antenna. The other two orbiters, Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter and Mars Express, will record transmissions from Phoenix during the descent, as backup to ensure that all data is captured, then transmit the whole files to Earth after the landing. "We will begin recording about 10 minutes before the landing," said JPL's Ben Jai, mission manager for Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter.

The orbiters' advance support for the Phoenix mission also includes examination of potential landing sites, which is continuing. After landing, the support will include relaying communication between Phoenix and Earth during the three months that Phoenix is scheduled to operate on the surface. Additionally, NASA and European Space Agency ground stations are performing measurements to determine the trajectory of Phoenix with high precision.

With about 160 million kilometers (100 million miles) still to fly as of late February, Phoenix continues to carry out testing and other preparations of its instruments. The pressure and temperature sensors of the meteorological station provided by the Canadian Space Agency were calibrated Feb. 27 for the final time before landing. "The spacecraft has been behaving so well that we have been able to focus much of the team's attention on preparations for landing and surface operations," Spencer said.

The Phoenix mission is led by Peter Smith of the University of Arizona, Tucson, with project management at JPL and development partnership at Lockheed Martin, Denver. International contributions are provided by the Canadian Space Agency; the University of Neuchatel, Switzerland; the universities of Copenhagen and Aarhus, Denmark; the Max Planck Institute, Germany; and the Finnish Meteorological Institute. Additional information on Phoenix is online at http://www.nasa.gov/phoenix and http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu . JPL, a division of the California Institute of Technology in Pasadena, manages Mars Odyssey and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington. Additional information on NASA's Mars program is online at http://www.nasa.gov/mars .

- end -

3488

29-February-2008, 12:22 PM

Thank you very much ToSeek.

An excellent update. :D

It is very interesting to see that the Mars Orbiters are deliberately having their orbital properties altered, so they can listen in to the landing of Phoenix in Scandia Colles.

Also it is very encouraging to see ESA do likewise with Mars Express. If Phoenix crashes, we should know why very quickly, but also hopefully the landing will succeed & of course we will want to know, what went well, so that can be transferred to future landers.

I hope that MRO will image the landing site with the HiRISE, post Phoenix arrival. This will of course help pin piont the exact spot. :cool:

My gut felling is that this is going to go well. Phoenix had such a tough & rigorous prelaunch testing regime, that any bugs that crashed the ill fated Mars Polar Lander are non existent.

Also the fact that there have been no real problems during the cruise thus far, also shows how beautifully built & engineered Phoenix is.

Lets hope that Mars does not think otherwise (inclement weather & / or large boulders). :eek:

This mission will reveal much new information & insights, the landing site in particular & the high latitudes in general. :razz:

Andrew Brown.

ToSeek

29-February-2008, 01:01 PM

After the dual fiascoes with the Mars Climate Orbiter and the Mars Polar Lander, NASA is dead set against something similar happening again. I'm sure they've taken huge pains to be as confident as possible that it won't.

3488

29-February-2008, 01:26 PM

I agree ToSeek,

It was a double fiasco of the highest order, made worse by the fact that the Mars Climate Orbiter, was a fully functioning craft & was lost due to two teams who could not communicate the simple fact that one was working in imperial measurements & the other in Metric measurements. Talk about not getting your sums right. :confused:

Mars Polar Lander, should never have launched without having that vital piece of software checked. How the hell could that happen?

We can accept failure due to natural causes, such as large boulders, steep slopes tipping the craft over, etc, these things are part of the risk associated with these endeavours, still upsetting, but it can be said, that we did our utmost.

But that double fiasco, was due to carelessness, lack of communication & in my opinion, a very shoddy way of management. Both missions could have & should have succeeded.

But looking more recently, beginning with Mars Odyssey, every NASA Mars craft has been spectacularly successful (the MERs for instance, lasted some 15 times their design life & continuing to operate very well).

Phoenix has been built with the same mindset as the MERs, thoroughly tested, well managed & beautifully engineered. More like the NASA we know & love.

I am quietly optimistic that Phoenix will land successfully.

Once again ToSeek, thank you very much.

Andrew Brown.

N!ck

29-February-2008, 01:32 PM

So hold on.

What will the benefits from Phoenix's mission be exactly?

Is it something to do with dormant life on Mars?

I'm a little cold on the details.

antoniseb

29-February-2008, 01:39 PM

What will the benefits from Phoenix's mission be exactly?

I'm guessing by the name of the mission that it is looking for ashes that smell like cinnamon.

You can read more details on the official website here (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science.php).

N!ck

29-February-2008, 01:51 PM

Just had a tiny read.

Something about curiosity.
Which is good ;)

Although will this ever compliment the idea of colonising Mars?

I mean, I've heard we'll have to in due time.

antoniseb

29-February-2008, 01:59 PM

will this ever compliment the idea of colonising Mars?

We need to know things about Mars, and we are picking the low hanging fruit right now. The Phoenix mission is looking for solid water on Mars. Hopefully what it tells us will help paint a bigger picture when joined with everything else.

Will it help to colonize Mars? Yes. Will the Mars Phoenix data be all that important by the time we actually do colonize Mars? probably not.

ToSeek

29-February-2008, 02:44 PM

It was a double fiasco of the highest order, made worse by the fact that the Mars Climate Orbiter, was a fully functioning craft & was lost due to two teams who could not communicate the simple fact that one was working in imperial measurements & the other in Metric measurements. Talk about not getting your sums right. :confused:

The worst part of it for me was that the navigation team had some evidence that something was wrong, but management wouldn't listen to them.

That being said, it's worth keeping in mind that MCO and MPL combined cost significantly less than one rover - they were very cheap missions, so not nearly as much was lost as if an MRO or MER had failed.

ToSeek

29-February-2008, 02:50 PM

So hold on.

What will the benefits from Phoenix's mission be exactly?

Is it something to do with dormant life on Mars?

I'm a little cold on the details.

Here (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science03.php) and here (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/science02.php) are the best discussion of the Phoenix science goals. However, I think the main thing to point out is that Phoenix is going to visit a Martian polar icecap, a part of Mars we've never investigated before. If you're concerned about colonization, one of the issues is how much water ice there is in the icecaps, and Phoenix will go a long way toward figuring that out.

3488

01-March-2008, 01:32 AM

The worst part of it for me was that the navigation team had some evidence that something was wrong, but management wouldn't listen to me.

That being said, it's worth keeping in mind that MCO and MPL combined cost significantly less than one rover - they were very cheap missions, so not nearly as much was lost as if an MRO or MER had failed.

Hi ToSeek.

I did not realise that you were personally involved. Your statement backs up what I said, that management was weak. You noticed an error was made. Did anyone in management listen to you? No, they did not.

I can understand that they were very cheap missions, but were perfectly capable of successfully completing their missions, if management, listened to those, such as yourself in the know.

A shame that you were not management. If you were, I am sure we would have had two successful missions.

Are you involved with Phoenix? I was involved in the campaign to get Phoenix approved, after the loss of Polar Lander & I was also involved in the campaign in getting DAWN on the way to 4 Vesta & 1 Ceres.

I find it quite sad when members have to question the scientific value of this mission. This mission will reveal an enormous amount of new information, regarding the Martian arctic area in general & the landing site in particular.

Soil to ice ratios, composition, deposition history, general environment from ground level of the Martian high northern latitudes (something never done before), did life ever arise there, before the conditions became too harsh?

Not to mention the PanCam images showing the landscape. These will reveal the form of the surrounding area, clues as to what has happened there, monitoring clouds, hopefully filming the Martian Midnight Sun dipping to 2 degress above the northern horizon before rising again (good PR observation, but also scientifically useful regarding pinpointing the exact location of Phoenix & further information regarding the movements of Mars), etc.

This is a superb mission. Lets hope it works, fingers crossed, but Pheonix is a beautifully built, well tested & engineered craft, so I am quietly hopeful.

Andrew Brown.

ToSeek

01-March-2008, 03:59 AM

Hi ToSeek.

I did not realise that you were personally involved. Your statement backs up what I said, that management was weak. You noticed an error was made. Did anyone in management listen to you? No, they did not.

I can understand that they were very cheap missions, but were perfectly capable of successfully completing their missions, if management, listened to those, such as yourself in the know.

A shame that you were not management. If you were, I am sure we would have had two successful missions.

Are you involved with Phoenix? I was involved in the campaign to get Phoenix approved, after the loss of Polar Lander & I was also involved in the campaign in getting DAWN on the way to 4 Vesta & 1 Ceres.

I find it quite sad when members have to question the scientific value of this mission. This mission will reveal an enormous amount of new information, regarding the Martian arctic area in general & the landing site in particular.

Soil to ice ratios, composition, deposition history, general environment from ground level of the Martian high northern latitudes (something never done before), did life ever arise there, before the conditions became too harsh?

Not to mention the PanCam images showing the landscape. These will reveal the form of the surrounding area, clues as to what has happened there, monitoring clouds, hopefully filming the Martian Midnight Sun dipping to 2 degress above the northern horizon before rising again (good PR observation, but also scientifically useful regarding pinpointing the exact location of Phoenix & further information regarding the movements of Mars), etc.

This is a superb mission. Lets hope it works, fingers crossed, but Pheonix is a beautifully built, well tested & engineered craft, so I am quietly hopeful.

Andrew Brown.

Sorry, that was a mistake on my part - I meant to type "them" not "me" (and have since corrected it) - I can only plea a bad cold! I do work on space missions, but at Goddard, not JPL.

KaiYeves

01-March-2008, 07:47 PM

I do work on space missions
And that's why you're the coolest guy on BAUT besides the BA.

ToSeek

02-March-2008, 05:46 PM

And that's why you're the coolest guy on BAUT besides the BA.

Why, thank you, but I'm far from the only space professional here. NGC3314 (may have the number wrong) even helps to decide what Hubble should target.

KaiYeves

05-March-2008, 11:23 PM

Can it get any better? Phoenix is planned to touchdown on Mars on International Day of the Jedi! Star Wars and NASA! May the Force be with you, Phoenix!
Hey, "Phoenix Force"! Sweet, now we've got X-Men, too!

3488

05-March-2008, 11:43 PM

Hi every one,

I think you will all be interested in this.

MRO HiRISE view of frosted ground in Phoenix landing ellipse (http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007207_2485).

I am really looking forward to this mission immensely. :cool:

Andrew Brown.

01101001

06-March-2008, 03:22 AM

MRO HiRISE view of frosted ground in Phoenix landing ellipse (http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/PSP_007207_2485).

Patterned ground (http://www.uspermafrost.org/images/permafrost.jpg) on a planet most of you are more familiar with (from US Permafrost Association glossary (http://www.uspermafrost.org/glossary.php))

01101001

26-March-2008, 11:38 PM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown
60 days 00 hours 00 minutes 00 seconds

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/207019main_phoenix-cruise-226.jpg (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

If you liked the crusty old Daniel Maas MER Mission CGI animation movie(s), there are some similar animations by Maas Digital (http://www.maasdigital.com/) of these more current Phoenix Mission events at: Phoenix Mission Gallery :: Videos and Animations (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/videos.php) (QuickTime, some in 100-megabyte HD versions, from last year or earlier). I think the still image above is from one of the animations.

Phoenix Launch Animation
Phoenix EDL Animation

Landing time (approximate):
May 25, 1637 PDT
May 25, 1937 EDT
May 25, 2337 UTC

60 days to landing

antoniseb

27-March-2008, 01:44 PM

Landing time (approximate):
May 25, 1637 PDT
May 25, 1937 EDT
May 25, 2337 UTC

Out of curiosity, do you know if that is the landing time, or the time that we will find out about the landing here on Earth (several light-minutes away)?

01101001

27-March-2008, 03:36 PM

Out of curiosity, do you know if that is the landing time, or the time that we will find out about the landing here on Earth (several light-minutes away)?

No idea. It is extracted from the University of Arizona Landing Countdown clock (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/).

My guess is that it is actual time, a moment in mission elapsed time, extracted from a timeline schedule, and we'll get our confirmation later at whatever lightspeed allows.

But, in brief searches I haven't found a mission event timeline, so that countdown clock was all I could estimate a landing time on. It all depends on how they decided to implement that feature.

Code includes
so.addVariable("label","LANDING");
//so.addVariable("yr",2008);
//so.addVariable("mon",5);
//so.addVariable("day",25);
//so.addVariable("hr",16);
//so.addVariable("min",36);

But, like you asked, what is that time? (And my estimate is a second off because my computer clock was not well-synced when I was figuring.)

matthewota

01-April-2008, 01:50 AM

I recently watched JPL's latest video on the Phoenix. My impression is that it is such a high-risk entry and landing procedure, that they spent a lot of time explaining what can go wrong, not what can go right. Then again, the last time we landed successfully on Mars using the rocket method was with Viking in 1976...

01101001

01-April-2008, 02:33 AM

My guess is that it is actual time, a moment in mission elapsed time, extracted from a timeline schedule, and we'll get our confirmation later at whatever lightspeed allows.

I found a confirmation. University of Arizona Phoenix FAQ (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/faq.php)

Phoenix will land at approximately 4:36pm Pacific Daylight Time (7:36pm Eastern Daylight Time). We hope to receive the first signal from the lander approximately 17 minutes later at 4:53pm PDT (7:53pm EDT).

01101001

01-April-2008, 02:43 AM

Then again, the last time we landed successfully on Mars using the rocket method was with Viking in 1976...

I believe I read that airbags were ruled out because of the greater mass of Phoenix, over MER and Pathfinder.

Landing thrusters worked decades ago. There's no reason they should work worse using more recent technology.

That's not to say landing on Mars is easy. It's not, evidenced by the failures, and highlighted by the recent topic The Mars Landing Approach: Getting Large Payloads to the Surface of the Red Planet (http://www.bautforum.com/universe-today-story-comments/62240-mars-landing-approach-getting-large-payloads-surface-red-planet.html), summarized: enough atmosphere to make it dangerous; not enough atmosphere to make it easy.

(Oh, original video cited was probably the dramatic Phoenix Mars Lander: Entry Descent and Landing, with interviews, at NASA Video Gallery (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/videogallery/index.html). Interesting is the pure CGI, without talking heads, Phoenix EDL Animation video at Phoenix Videos and Animations (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/videos.php).)

01101001

11-April-2008, 04:01 AM

NASA Phoenix News: NASA Spacecraft Fine Tunes Course for Mars Landing (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080410.html)

NASA engineers have adjusted the flight path of the Phoenix Mars Lander, setting the spacecraft on course for its May 25 landing on the Red Planet.

"This is our first trajectory maneuver targeting a specific location in the northern polar region of Mars," said Brian Portock, chief of the Phoenix navigation team at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory in Pasadena, Calif. The mission's two prior trajectory maneuvers, made last August and October, adjusted the flight path of Phoenix to intersect with Mars.

NASA has conditionally approved a landing site in a broad, flat valley informally called "Green Valley." A final decision will be made after NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter takes additional images of the area this month.

Planetary Society Weblog: Phoenix Targets Green Valley (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001393/)

All previous maneuvers targeted it to Mars more generally. But now it's aimed at a specific spot on Mars, one picked out through exhaustive examination of data from Mars Global Surveyor, Mars Odyssey, Mars Express, and Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter. They still have the option to nudge the landing zone around a bit, depending upon the outcome of analysis of further Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter images to be taken this month.

For review, the Green Valley area (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/ra3-ellipse.html):
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/183679main_ra3-ellipse-unlabel-th.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/ra3-ellipse.html)

Google Mars (http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=68.35&lon=-127&zoom=7) for context, centered on landing spot, with the prominent Heimdall Crater mid-right.

NASA Phoenix multimedia page (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/index.html) highlights the landing target.

01101001

28-April-2008, 12:07 AM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Landing Countdown
27 days 23 hours 30 minutes 00 seconds

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

Planetary Society Weblog: The Phoenix landing site (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001407/)

I have just posted an update to the Phoenix section of our website giving some basic location and description information on the Phoenix landing site. Right now the landing site is a large ellipse -- an oval 100 by 19 kilometers in size.
[...]
The ellipse is stretched much more in the down-track direction than the across-track direction because of uncertainties in what Mars' weather holds in store for the incoming lander -- a tiny change in atmospheric temperature or density can cause the lander to decelerate more or less rapidly, which results in a landing seconds (and kilometers) earlier or later than the predicted time.

(So if you should eventually come to hear some BAUT member blaming a weird non-mainstream variable gravity effect for Phoenix's missing the target bullseye, remember: the answer is blowing in the wind.)

Nice countdown and milestone information may be had at an D. Muller's site: Phoenix Mars Landing Real-Time Simulation (http://www.dmuller.net/phoenix/)

Go, Phoenix!

Just under 4 weeks to landing

01101001

04-May-2008, 11:36 PM

University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

21 days 00 hours 00 minutes 00 seconds

Phoenix Mars Mission blogs: Ready? (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/blogsPost.php?bID=190)

May 02, 2008 - We have now completed our ORT10 dress rehearsal. It’s been a long road getting from taking a few days to just get through one day on Mars a year ago to being able to execute day by day the activities we need to do everyday for the mission. Are we 100% ready? I hope not! We are well prepared, I’m told by those with many missions under their belts we’re the best prepared team they’ve ever seen. But if we knew everything that would happen, knew all the answers, there wouldn’t be much point in going. This is a mission of discovery, and I hope no matter how prepared we are that Mars has a few surprises in store.[...]

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

3 weeks to landing

aurora

05-May-2008, 11:33 PM

Does anyone know if they will broadcast the landing live on NASA TV?

I looked at the schedule for special events here:
http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html
and did not see it listed. Does that mean they will not broadcast it?

I was really looking forward to watching the first signal come down.

01101001

05-May-2008, 11:38 PM

Does anyone know if they will broadcast the landing live on NASA TV?

I don't know, but I can't imagine NASA TV not covering the event. I don't think they've ever missed such something like this since NASA TV was born.

I'd bet anything.

Edit: Planetary Society: Phoenix Landing Events (http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/contests_events_and_awards/planetfest08/phoenix_events.html)

Arizona State is planning on NASA coverage:

Event Address: Moeur Building
Arizona State University
210 E. Orange Mall
Tempe, AZ 85281
Date& Time: Sunday, May 25, 2008 (time to be determined)
Cost: Free

Description: Live NASA TV feeds of the landing to be narrated by ASU's Mars Space Flight Facility engineers and scientists.

All the regional events appear to be planning on NASA coverage.

BPCooper

06-May-2008, 07:32 PM

Yes, they will. Coverage should start at 6pm EDT.

KaiYeves

06-May-2008, 08:58 PM

19 days. I've got a countdown in my assignment pad.

01101001

07-May-2008, 04:31 AM

Planetary Society Weblog: Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spots dust devils at Phoenix landing site (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001416/)

As a part of the weather monitoring campaign, the Context Camera on Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter spotted two enormous dust devils, at the dead center of the Phoenix landing ellipse.

[...] if the landing site selection committee has done its work well, the landscape should be mind-numbingly flat and devoid of large rocks. The flatness means we should see a long way, but see a whole lot of nothing. I'm envisioning west Texas without vegetation. I'm not looking forward to the underwhelmed response to the landscape from the mainstream media.

But if that flat flat flat landscape occasionally contains kilometer-high dust devils, Phoenix should be able to spot them from miles away [...]

Pictures there.

NASA Phoenix: Multimedia Feature: Phoenix Landing Area Viewed by Mars Color Imager (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/pia10634.html):

An annotated version of the image indicates the location of the landing ellipse, about 100 kilometers (60 miles) long. The Context Camera on the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter took an image of the landing area at the same time the Mars Color Imager took this image. A dot within the landing ellipse marks the location of two active dust devils visible in the Context Camera image, PIA10633 (http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA10633).

When the Mars Color Imager acquired this image, the season in Mars' northern hemisphere was late spring. A few weeks earlier, the Phoenix landing site was still covered with seasonal frost left over from the previous winter.

NASA Phoenix: Multimedia Feature: Context Camera Spots Dust Devils at Phoenix Landing Site (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/MRO/multimedia/pia10633.html)

Planetary Photojournal: PIA10634: Phoenix Landing Area Viewed by Mars Color Imager (http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/catalog/PIA10634)

http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/figures/PIA10634_fig1_thumb.jpg (http://photojournal.jpl.nasa.gov/figures/PIA10634_fig1.jpg)

===

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

dmuller

07-May-2008, 09:01 AM

Does anyone know if they will broadcast the landing live on NASA TV?

They do. I was advised by JPL that "there will be two types of programming streamed from mission control. A version with commentary and interviews mixed in will begin at 3:30 p.m. Pacific Time, on NASA TV's "Public" channel. A plain version without commentary (the way TV news editors generally prefer) will begin at 3 p.m. on NASA TV's "Media" channels. Both channels can be viewed online at www.nasa.gov/ntv"

01101001

07-May-2008, 10:24 PM

NASA press release: NASA to Discuss Phoenix Mission Upcoming Mars Landing (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/may/HQ_M08088_Phoenix_Advisory.html)

WASHINGTON -- NASA has scheduled a media briefing Tuesday, May 13, at 11 a.m. EDT, to discuss the challenges, risks and science opportunities of the scheduled May 25 landing of the Phoenix Mars Lander. Officials also will provide details on the Phoenix landing site.

The briefing will take place in the NASA Headquarters' James E. Webb Auditorium, 300 E St., S.W., Washington. It will be carried live on NASA Television and on the Web.

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

Briefing:
Tuesday, May 13 0800 PDT
Tuesday, May 13 1100 EDT
Tuesday, May 13 1500 UTC

01101001

11-May-2008, 11:36 PM

NASA Phoenix mission news: Phoenix Flying True Enough to Skip One Scheduled Adjustment (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenixs-20080509.html)

NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander continues on course for its May 25 arrival at Mars. After targeting its certified landing site with a trajectory, or flight path, correction maneuver on April 10, the spacecraft's performance has been stable enough for the mission's operators to forgo the scheduled opportunity for an additional trajectory correction maneuver on May 10 and focus on the next such opportunity, on May 17.
[...]
The first possible confirmation time for the spacecraft's landing on May 25 will be at 4:53 p.m. Pacific Daylight Time. The event would have happened 15 minutes and 20 seconds earlier on Mars, and then radio signals traveling at the speed of light will take 15 minutes and 20 seconds to cross the distance from Mars to Earth on that day.

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

Landing, Earth-received time (estimated):
Sunday, May 25, 1653 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1953 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2353 UTC

14 days to landing

===

Reminder: mission briefing Tuesday May 13, 0800 PDT (see above)

===

Anticipation:

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_69.jpg http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_19.jpg http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_20.jpg http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_70.jpg
http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_21.jpg http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_22.jpg http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_140.jpg http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/gallery/tn_66.jpg (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images.php?gID=0&cID=1)

01101001

13-May-2008, 12:45 PM

NASA press release: NASA to Discuss Phoenix Mission Upcoming Mars Landing (http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/may/HQ_M08088_Phoenix_Advisory.html)

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

Briefing:
Tuesday, May 13 0800 PDT
Tuesday, May 13 1100 EDT
Tuesday, May 13 1500 UTC

Briefing starts in 2 hours, 15 minutes.

01101001

13-May-2008, 03:01 PM

Briefing underway.

Ed Weiler, associate administrator, Science Mission Directorate, NASA Headquarters, Washington
Doug McCuistion, director, Mars Exploration Program, NASA Headquarters
Peter Smith, Phoenix principal investigator, University of Arizona, Tucson
Ray Arvidson, Phoenix landing site working group chairman, Washington University in St. Louis
Barry Goldstein, Phoenix project manager, NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, California

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

It's not a trip to grandma's house. But, we're driving grandma's car.

Before: Follow the water.
Now: Touch the water.

Associated image materials (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/index.html)

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/226779main_5296-226.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/index.html)

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/226785main_5299-th.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/index.html) http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/226794main_6406-th.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/multimedia/index.html)

They lose comm (with overhead satellite) about 1 minute after touchdown. Solar panels deploy 15 minutes after touchdown, to let dust settle. Next comm is about an hour after touchdown, so it will be some time before panel deployment is confirmed.

Barry Goldstein, I think, commented that there is 3 seconds of data he really sweats, the entry/descent/landing status communication burst to one of the overhead satellites (MRO, I think). Even should Phoenix fail, perhaps especially if Phoenix fails, that data is valuable for the lessons it would teach.

Those people are smart. The sample analyzer feed is exposed during landing, so dust may settle into it. If the arm never works, at least they'll probably have a little dust to look at.

Session now ended after 65 minutes.

01101001

13-May-2008, 08:58 PM

Phoenix Mission Ready For Mars Landing (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/05_13_news.php) (May 13)

Phoenix will enter the top of the Martian atmosphere at almost 13,000 mph. In seven minutes, the spacecraft must complete a challenging sequence of events to slow to about 5 mph before its three legs reach the ground. Confirmation of the landing could come as early as 7:53 p.m. EDT, 4:53 p.m. MST.

"This is not a trip to grandma's house. Putting a spacecraft safely on Mars is hard and risky," said Ed Weiler, associate administrator for NASA's Science Mission Directorate at NASA Headquarters in Washington. "Internationally, fewer than half the attempts have succeeded."

Rocks large enough to spoil the landing or prevent opening of the solar panels present the biggest known risk. However, images from the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, detailed enough to show individual rocks smaller than the lander, have helped lessen that risk.

NASA Phoenix Mission feature: Intense Testing Paved Phoenix Road to Mars (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20080508.html) (May 9)

When NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander descends to the surface of the Red Planet on May 25, few will be watching as closely as the men and women who have spent years planning, analyzing and conducting tests to prepare for the dramatic and nerve-wracking event known as EDL - Entry, Descent and Landing. For after all their hard work, they know that landing on Mars is not a walk in the park. Less than 50 percent of all previous lander missions have made it safely to the surface.
[...]
Here are descriptions of five examples of problematic hardware and resolutions resulting from the extensive work done by the Phoenix engineering and science team.

Radar [...]
Parachute [...]
Motors [...]
Scoop [...]
Stowaway carbon [...]

Goldstein said, "I can't guarantee success. We are in the business of taking risks, doing things that are very difficult. However, I am confident that we have a world-class team that has dug as deep as it could to find any problems."

NASA Phoenix Mission (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html)
University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

A little over 12 days to landing

01101001

14-May-2008, 06:17 AM

Planetary Society Weblog: Landing ellipses (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001425/)

To begin with, the lander is, in fact, targeting a specific latitude and longitude on Mars. But, [Phoenix landing guy Rob Manning] said, "Before landing we are not perfectly confident as to what square kilometer on Mars the lander will land in, because there are lots of variables that would cause it to move 'off target'. Uncertainty about the density of the atmosphere is among the biggest contributors to our uncertainty. And the ability of our spacecraft and navigation teams to precisely target a point above the atmosphere (at a grazing angle, no less) is another source of uncertainty. [...]"

(Prediction, if history repeats: when Phoenix doesn't hit the exact center of the landing ellipse, some BAUT members will argue that the overlooked key variable is the all-important fudge-factor their own personal non-mainstream theory of gravity demands.)

01101001

15-May-2008, 03:36 AM

Does anyone know if they will broadcast the landing live on NASA TV?

Further confirmation:

NASA TV Schedule : Live Events, News and Special Event Programs (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/MM_NTV_Breaking.html) (Eastern Daylight Time)

May 25, Sunday
3 p.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Briefing - JPL (Public and Media Channels)
6 p.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Landing Coverage - JPL (Media Channel)
6:30 - 8:45 p.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Landing Coverage - JPL (Public Channel)
9:30 p.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Briefing - First Downlink of Data - JPL (Public and Media Channels)

May 26, Monday
12 a.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Post Landing Briefing - JPL (Public and Media Channels)
2 p.m. - Mars Phoenix Lander Update Briefing - JPL (Public and Media Channels)

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

10 days, 20 hours to landing

Maksutov

15-May-2008, 04:34 AM

[edit](Prediction, if history repeats: when Phoenix doesn't hit the exact center of the landing ellipse, some BAUT members will argue that the overlooked key variable is the all-important fudge-factor their own personal non-mainstream theory of gravity demands.)Yup, just like that lack of fudge factor application that resulted in the Huygens disaster.

01101001

16-May-2008, 10:54 PM

Phoenix more probably will land outside the 1-sigma ellipse.

Again, Planetary Society Weblog: Landing ellipses (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001425/):

"The probability that Phoenix will land inside that 1-sigma ellipse happens to be only 39%. In order to find a shape on the surface that has a high probability of containing the true landing site, we typically choose three standard deviations for our landing ellipse or '3-sigma'. Our 3-sigma ellipse is centered on our target point (like the 1-sigma ellipse) and is also oriented in the same direction. However, it is three times bigger, (17 x 2 x 3 or about 100) kilometers long by (3 x 2 x 3, about 20) kilometers wide. The probability that Phoenix will land inside its 3-sigma ellipse is 98.8%. Very high.
[...]
"For the math fans out there, the probability that Phoenix will land inside "k" standard deviations (or k-sigma) is exactly:
1 - e^(-k^2 /2)
[...]
"So when you see a Mars landing ellipse, you now know that the center of that ellipse is much more likely than near its edges! Now we simply have to get ready, set, aim!

In between, inside the 2-sigma ellipse: 86.5%.

01101001

17-May-2008, 11:36 PM

NASA Phoenix mission news: Closing in on Mars (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenixs-20080516.html)

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/222203main_capsule-th.jpg (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenixs-20080516.html)

Engineers are considering a maneuver that would nudge the flight path of Phoenix toward a targeted landing spot 18 kilometers to the northwest, with the goal of hitting the center of the certified landing zone. A final decision on the trajectory maneuver will be made Saturday afternoon, with execution at 9:00 pm PDT.

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

8 days to landing

===

Edit: Just found this: Mars Phoenix Twitter Feed (http://twitter.com/marsphoenix). Sample:

Trajectory maneuver completed! Engines fired for 3 seconds to nudge course to landing site. All spacecraft subsystems are nominal. about 20 hours ago from web

8 days & 7 million miles to go until landing on May 25. Engine burn to tweak course tonite at 9pm PDT. 413 million miles traveled so far. 11:16 AM May 17, 2008 from web

01101001

19-May-2008, 06:06 PM

Phoenix Landing Events Schedule (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/landingevents.html)

Times are Pacific Daylight and some are subject to change.

Thursday, May 22
-- News briefing, 11:30 a.m. to 12:30 p.m.

Saturday, May 24
-- News briefing, noon
-- Trajectory correction maneuver opportunity (TCM6), 7:46 p.m.

Sunday, May 25
NOTE: The times below for the Phoenix spacecraft events on May 25 are for a nominal scenario. Remaining navigational adjustments before May 25 could shift the times by up to about half a minute. In addition, the times for some events relative to others could vary by several seconds due to variations in the Martian atmosphere and other factors. For some events, a "give or take" range of times is given, covering 99 percent of possible scenarios from the atmospheric entry time. For events at Mars, times are listed in "Earth-receive time" (ERT) rather than "spacecraft event time" (SCET). [...]

-- Trajectory correction maneuver opportunity (TCM6X), 8:46 a.m.
-- News briefing, noon
-- Begin non-commentary live television feed from JPL control room, 3 p.m.
-- Begin commentated live television feed from JPL control room, 3:30 p.m.
-- Propulsion system pressurization, 4:16 p.m.
-- Begin "bent-pipe" relay relay (continuous transmission of Phoenix data as it is received) through NASA's Mars Odyssey spacecraft to Goldstone, Calif., Deep Space Network station, 4:38 p.m.
-- Green Bank, W. Va., radio telescope listening for direct UHF from Phoenix, 4:38 p.m.
-- Cruise stage separates, 4:39 p.m.
-- Spacecraft turns to attitude for atmospheric entry, 4:40 p.m.
-- Spacecraft enters atmosphere, 4:46:33 p.m.
-- Likely blackout period as hot plasma surrounds spacecraft, 4:47 through 4:49 p.m.
-- Parachute deploys, 4:50:15 p.m., plus or minus about 13 seconds.
-- Heat shield jettisoned, 4:50:30 p.m., plus or minus about 13 seconds.
-- Legs deploy, 4:50:40 p.m., plus or minus about 13 seconds.
-- Radar activated, 4:51:30 p.m.
-- Lander separates from backshell, 4:53:09 p.m., plus or minus about 46 seconds.
-- Transmission gap during switch to helix antenna 4:53:08 to 4:53:14 p.m.
-- Descent thrusters throttle up, 4:53:12 p.m.
-- Constant-velocity phase starts, 4:53:34 p.m., plus or minus about 46 seconds.
-- Touchdown, 4:53:52 p.m., plus or minus about 46 seconds.
-- Lander radio off 4:54:52 p.m., plus or minus about 46 seconds.
-- Begin opening solar arrays (during radio silence) 5:13 p.m.
-- Begin NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter playback of Phoenix transmissions recorded during entry, descent and landing, 5:28 p.m. However, data for analysis will not be ready until several hours later.
-- Begin Europe's Mars Express spacecraft playback of Phoenix transmissions recorded during entry, descent and landing, 5:30 p.m. However, data for analysis will not be ready until several hours later.
-- Post-landing poll of subsystem teams about spacecraft status, 5:30 p.m.
-- Mars Odyssey "bent-pipe" relay of transmission from Phoenix, with engineering data and possibly including first images, 6:43 to 7:02 p.m. Data could take up to about 30 additional minutes in pipeline before being accessible. If all goes well, live television feed from control room may show first images as they are received. The first images to be taken after landing will be of solar arrays, to check deployment status.
-- News briefing, 9 p.m.

Monday, May 26 [more there]

JPL Podcast: Countdown to Mars Touchdown (http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/multimedia/podcast/phoenix-20080517/) (Includes transcript.)

But the bottom line is we have a lot of things going on in the span of the last 14 minutes before touchdown, we have 26 events, pyrotechnic events, separations and deployments that have to go right. And for all those things to happen autonomously in that quick period of time outside of our control, we can't react to those problems from Earth, obviously. There's a lot that has to go right in a short period of time, so it makes people nervous.

Edit: And now there is: NASA Phoenix Landing Blog (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/blogs/index.html)

Throughout the week, team members will post updates. On landing day, Phoenix's Configuration and Information Management Engineer Brent Shockley will be blogging from JPL's Mission Control.

Follow along on this blog during landing, or visit www.nasa.gov/phoenix for landing and mission updates.

aurora

20-May-2008, 02:35 AM

I saw an ad on the Science Channel yesterday, saying they would have live coverage too. So I'll have to switch back and forth between them and the NASA channel, maybe I'll Tivo one of them.

JonClarke

20-May-2008, 08:11 AM

I'll be at the Tidbinbilla tracking station, watching it on the big screen. The first pictures should be coming through there too, about lunch time. I am taking the day of work.

Jon

01101001

21-May-2008, 07:00 PM

Phoenix Mission link farm:

NASA Phoenix Mission (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html)
University of Arizona Phoenix Mars Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)
NASA Phoenix Landing Events Schedule (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/landingevents.html)
NASA Phoenix Landing Blog (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/blogs/index.html)
NASA Phoenix Twitter Feed (http://twitter.com/marsphoenix)
Emily Lakdawalla, Live Video Chat from JPL: UStream (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/emily-lakdawalla) [Edit: Emily chat at 13:30 PDT, maybe a second one later.]
Planetary Society Weblog: Gearing up for the Phoenix Landing (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001432/)
Planetary Society Weblog: Up-to-the-minute Map of the Phoenix Landing Site (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001431/)
Planetary Society landing site map schematic (http://www.planetary.org/image/phoenix_landing_site_usgs_map_20080519.jpg)
Planetary Society landing site image, with ellipses, topography (http://www.planetary.org/image/Phoenix_prelanding_base_timparker_50m.jpg)
Planetary Society Phoenix mission topic (http://www.planetary.org/explore/topics/phoenix/)
Bad Astronomer Twitter (http://twitter.com/badastronomer) the BA cancelled plan to twitter
Mars Live (A Phoenix Landing Blog) by Doug Ellison et al (http://www.marslive.co.uk/)
Phoenix Mars Landing Real-Time Simulation by D Muller (http://www.dmuller.net/phoenix/)
Google Mars landing site (http://www.google.com/mars/#lat=68.35&lon=-127&zoom=7)
[Updates and advice welcome]

Pre-landing briefing:
Sunday, May 25 1200 PDT
Sunday, May 25 1500 EDT
Sunday, May 25 1900 UTC

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

Landing time (approximate Earth-received time):
Sunday, May 25, 1653 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1953 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2353 UTC

matthewota

22-May-2008, 03:20 AM

Seven minutes of Terror....

Read my article here (http://sciencedude.freedomblogging.com/2008/05/14/matts-mars-landing-preview/)

dmuller

22-May-2008, 12:04 PM

I'll be at the Tidbinbilla tracking station, watching it on the big screen. The first pictures should be coming through there too, about lunch time. I am taking the day of work.

Jon

See you there Jon!

Daniel

01101001

22-May-2008, 11:36 PM

Planetary Society Weblog: Notes from the Thursday Phoenix press briefing (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001436/)

(Shoot. I saw this event on the NASA TV schedule yesterday, but I thought it looked like a replay of last week's similar briefing.)

Fuk Li, the manager of JPL's Mars Exploration Program, described the entry, descent, and landing period as "a very nail-biting time for us." He went on to say that most of the operations that it will be doing over the next few days, are operations it has never performed before, and never will again. Things have to work correctly the first and only time that they happen. All of this, of course, is no different that for any other Mars landing.

(I ain't saying it. I ain't saying it. I ain't saying it.)

Another issue that Peter [Smith] addressed was the fact that Phoenix is a lander, not a rover. He pointed out that the mottled terrain of the northern plains, which is caused by ice expanding and contracting with the seasons underneath the soil, is really very similar from one place to another; there's not really any point to travel from one place to another. But in another sense, they are going on a journey, a vertical journey, from the surface down, as they dig their trench.

In answer to a question about when images were going to become available, Peter said that they would be made available on the Internet as they come down. "You'll see them as I see them. We plan to operate the mission in an open manner." The first image, of the solar panels, should definitely come down in the first evening after a successful landing. Barry Goldstein, the project manager, clarified: "If everything goes perfectly, we will have the image of the solar array, we will have images of payload critical deployments, the footpads, and we will have a postcard image which would be a snippet of the horizon.

More detail there.

Just a note: at Emily's UStream channel (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/emily-lakdawalla), she has archived a video test from JPL, so that looks like it will be a go. I don't know what times she plans to chat, but it should be obvious by the time it happens. [Edit: Emily chat at 13:30 PDT, maybe a second one later.]

Don't forget to have your good-luck peanuts on hand for snacking, a JPL tradition.

Phoenix Mars Landing Real-Time Simulation by D Muller (http://www.dmuller.net/phoenix/)

And, a belated welcome to the BAUT Forum, celebrity Daniel Muller (dmuller (http://www.bautforum.com/members/dmuller.html)).

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

Landing time (approximate Earth-received time):
Sunday, May 25, 1653 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1953 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2353 UTC

72 hours to landing -- and then about 17 more minutes until we perceive it

dmuller

23-May-2008, 12:13 AM

Two additional events for your diaries (all in UTC)
21:48:30 (SCET) - 22:03:50 (ERT): Phoenix passes Deimos orbit
22:59:30 (SCET) - 23:14:50 (ERT): Phoenix passes Phobos orbit
this compares to
23:31:13 (SCET) - 23:46:33 (ERT): Entry Interface.

Planetary Society Weblog: Notes from the Thursday Phoenix press briefing (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001436/)
It's a beautiful choregraphy of spacecrafts, isnt it!

And, a belated welcome to the BAUT Forum, *** Daniel Muller
No celebrity here. Just doing what comes naturally. Thanks for the welcome!

Daniel

dmuller

23-May-2008, 06:24 AM

I though I posted something here a couple of hours ago but it seems it didnt quite make it ...

Two additional events for your diaries (all in UTC)
21:48:30 (SCET) - 22:03:50 (ERT): Phoenix passes Deimos orbit
22:59:30 (SCET) - 23:14:50 (ERT): Phoenix passes Phobos orbit
this compares to
23:31:13 (SCET) - 23:46:33 (ERT): Entry Interface.

Thanks for the welcome 01..01 :-) No celebrity here, just doing what comes naturally

EDIT - aaa look, my first post does now show up ...
EDIT 2 - having read the screen after posting another message, I know even understand why it happened ...

mugaliens

23-May-2008, 07:42 PM

Parrothead

23-May-2008, 07:45 PM

Discovery Channel (Canada) will be having a 2 hr show centering around the landing on Sunday evening.

http://www.discoverychannel.ca/content/?pid=183

01101001

24-May-2008, 02:41 AM

University of Arizona: First picture from Mars Phoenix (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/Doug_Ellison2.jpg) (really from the imagination of Doug Ellison (djellison (http://www.bautforum.com/members/djellison.html)))

More from the competition at
Blogspot: Phoenix Special :: Through the Eyes of the Phoenix Competition :: The Results! (http://spaceurope.blogspot.com/2008/05/phoenix-special-through-eyes-of-phoenix.html)

In BA Blog: Watch Phoenix land on Mars! (http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/05/23/watch-phoenix-land-on-mars/) find a short list of some places to follow the landing
(mainly Emily Lakdawalla at Planetary Society Weblog (http://www.planetary.org/blog/)).

Speaking of Emily... Planetary Society Weblog: Where to Watch Phoenix' Landing (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001439/) has lots of advice about where to look.

dmuller

24-May-2008, 06:06 AM

Announcement for those following the Phoenix Real-Time Simulation at http://www.dmuller.net/phoenix
Just in case anything goes wrong with the server, there is a backup / mirror site of the script at http://www.dmuller.com/phoenix
Enjoy watching the landing! Daniel

01101001

24-May-2008, 01:54 PM

NASA Phoenix Mission (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html)

Phoenix Mission Briefings
May 24, 3:00 p.m. (12:00 p.m. Pacific)
May 25, 3:00 p.m. (12:00 p.m. Pacific)
May 25, NASA TV coverage begins 6:30 p.m. (3:30 p.m. Pacific)
May 25, Landing on Mars at approximately 7:53 p.m. (4:53 p.m. Pacific)

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

Landing time (approximate Earth-received time):
Sunday, May 25, 1653 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1953 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2353 UTC

Less than 34 hours to landing

Eroica

24-May-2008, 02:42 PM

Live Webcast (www.marslive.co.uk), starting around 19:00 BST and hosted by Chris Lintott.

01101001

24-May-2008, 07:00 PM

May 24, 3:00 p.m. (12:00 p.m. Pacific)

Watch NASA TV (http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html)

Briefing has begun

Oh, yeah, there's a pretty, new EDL Animation Video at Phoenix Animations and Videos (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/videos.php).

Edit: Planetary Society Weblog: News from the Phoenix press briefing Saturday (http://www.planetary.org/blog/article/00001440/)

01101001

25-May-2008, 06:36 AM

NASA Phoenix Mission (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/main/index.html)

Phoenix Lander Update: No Saturday Night Maneuver
05.24.08 -- Mission controllers for NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander decided Saturday afternoon, May 24, to forgo the second-to-last opportunity for adjusting the spacecraft's flight path.

Coming up, from NASA Phoenix landing events schedule (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/landingevents.html) (times PDT, Earth-receive time):
-- Trajectory correction maneuver opportunity (TCM6X), 8:46 a.m.
-- News briefing, noon
-- Begin non-commentary live television feed from JPL control room, 3 p.m.
-- Begin commentated live television feed from JPL control room, 3:30 p.m.

Landing time (approximate):
Sunday, May 25, 1636 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1936 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2336 UTC

Landing time (approximate Earth-receive time):
Sunday, May 25, 1653 PDT
Sunday, May 25, 1953 EDT
Sunday, May 25, 2353 UTC

17 hours to landing

Tuckerfan

25-May-2008, 12:25 PM

I read CNN's Phoenix Mission article (http://edition.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/05/23/mars.lander/index.html)with interest, but balked at the following:

""I love airbags," said Weiler. "We got three success stories with airbags, but you don't invent science by continuing to do what you know how to do."

Engineers did not use airbags on Phoenix because the lander is simply too big and heavy for them to work properly. And NASA will have to figure out how to land reliably with thrusters and landing legs in order to fly even larger spacecraft in the future."

The Russians have been using parachuted palat deliver system for years whose rate of descent during it's final few feet is arrested. They simply hang a weight "depth guage" over the side, and when it touches the ground, the rockets fire, slowing the palat to a near stop by the time it touches down.

Simple side-looking doppler radar combined with a steerable parachute can easily halt sideways movement. Finally, a laser ground mapping device can be used in the parachute descent phase to find a rockless and level piece of land on which to touchdown.

This isn't rocket science - these applications have been around for years!
Technically, it is rocket science (there being rockets involved and all) and the Russian's record of successfully landing objects on Mars isn't exactly what one would call "stellar." The tricky part is figuring out something which will work reliably and consistently millions of miles from Earth. Even NASA (with their much better record of reaching Mars) hasn't quite cracked this nut.

It would be nice, however, if they looked at a standardized Mars delivery system for all their probes. That would allow economies of scale to kick in and reduce the costs of sending things to Mars.

Procyan

25-May-2008, 12:50 PM

I am confusal about something from the Saturday briefing. the panel first explained the rationale for the choice of site: The ice is likely to have preserved a record of ancient climate/life when/if Mars had a warmer past. And that Phoenix will detect. But the last question from the press about the origin of this tundra surface was explained as a refreeze of meltwater from an impact.

They didn't quite finish the train of thought. Is there a contradiction between these two things. In other words, would the impact erase the the historical evidence of life in the meltwater?

Launch window

25-May-2008, 03:23 PM

6 p.m. ET on Sunday, NASA begins live coverage of the Phoenix Lander

Bogie

25-May-2008, 06:25 PM

On the air (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/mars-live) but stream is not too good.

ToSeek

25-May-2008, 08:12 PM

I moved binary man's most recent post (with a list of all the links) to a new thread (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/74586-phoenix-edl-seven-minutes-terror-thread.html) intended specifically for coverage of Phoenix from now through landing. This thread should be reserved for discussions not associated with EDL.

Sam5

25-May-2008, 11:47 PM

NASA LIVE....

The entry info is being broadcast live on the NASA Channel right now, which is Channel 283 on Direct TV.

Sam5

25-May-2008, 11:52 PM

ground velocity 60 meters per second, in the process of landing now...

Sam5

25-May-2008, 11:53 PM

altitude 1100 meters

Sam5

25-May-2008, 11:53 PM

10 meters

Sam5

25-May-2008, 11:54 PM

touchdown signal detected

Sam5

25-May-2008, 11:55 PM

NASA says phoenix has landed.

Bogie

25-May-2008, 11:58 PM

Phoenix has landed. I wonder if there was a big welcoming crowd of little green men ... behind the rocks of course?

Gemini

25-May-2008, 11:59 PM

Wooooohooooo!!! Great Job everyone.

01101001

26-May-2008, 12:04 AM

University of Arizona:

Phoenix Has Landed!
May 25, 2008

Pasadena -- A NASA spacecraft landed in the Martian arctic today to begin three months of examining a site chosen for the likelihood of having frozen water within reach of the lander's robotic arm.

Radio signals received at 4:53 p.m. Pacific Time confirmed that the Phoenix Mars Lander had survived its difficult final descent and touchdown 15 minutes earlier. In the intervening time, those signals crossed the distance from Mars to Earth at the speed of light.

Mission team members at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Pasadena, Calif.: Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Denver; and the University of Arizona, Tucson, cheered confirmation of the landing and eagerly awaited further information from Phoenix later tonight.

Sam5

26-May-2008, 12:10 AM

Here's a live NASA feed:

http://www.nasa.gov/multimedia/nasatv/index.html

01101001

26-May-2008, 12:11 AM

Congratulations to participants mentioned (and not mentioned):

The Phoenix Mission is led by Principal Investigator Peter H. Smith of The University of Arizona, supported by a science team of CO-Is, with project management at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory and development partnership with Lockheed Martin Space Systems. International contributions are provided by the Canadian Space Agency; the University of Neuchatel, Switzerland; the universities of Copenhagen and Aarhus Denmark; the Max Planck Institute, Germany; and the Finnish Meteorological Institute.

Edit: Other participants and details of roles are here: University of Arizona Phoenix Mission (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/mission.php)

Emily Lakdawalla's live chat is up: UStream (http://www.ustream.tv/channel/emily-lakdawalla).
Edit: Emily went off air after a few questions but will return in about 15 minutes.

Tuckerfan

26-May-2008, 12:18 AM

Once the KVH-1A1 high-gain is deployed, Phoenix will immediately begin broadcasting Bob Newhart records to see if Mars has a sense of humor.

ToSeek

26-May-2008, 12:25 AM

I've started a new thread for Mars surface operations here. (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/74590-phoenix-mars.html)

01101001

11-November-2008, 08:25 PM

Yeah, now that the action on Mars is probably over, this topic is revived -- if only to note in this coda the different topics that documented the Phoenix mission.

My own preference is that the first results would go into their own special Phoenix Mars Results topic when they start to flow.

===

I've started a new thread for Mars surface operations here. (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/74590-phoenix-mars.html)

The Phoenix Mars extended mission is over. Long live the Phoenix Mars mission.

Let's see that crunched data. Where are those first papers?

AGU Fall Meeting (December 15-19, 2008) (http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm08.old/index.php/Program/SessionSearch)

RIP, sweet Phoenix. So long and thanks for all the zeroes and ones!

http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/images/news/ne_291.jpg (http://phoenix.lpl.arizona.edu/)

Index of Phoenix current-events topics:
Phoenix mission (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/16616-phoenix-mission.html) (this topic) (2005 February 28)
Phoenix Mars mission countdown and launch thread (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/61963-phoenix-mars-mission-countdown-launch-thread.html) (2007 July 11)
Phoenix EDL: The Seven Minutes of Terror thread (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/74586-phoenix-edl-seven-minutes-terror-thread.html) (2008 May 25)
Phoenix early surface activities (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/74590-phoenix-early-surface-activities.html) (2008 May 25)
Phoenix on Mars (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/74917-phoenix-mars.html) (2008 June 1)
Phoenix on Mars: Extended Mission (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/78062-phoenix-mars-extended-mission.html) (2008 August 25)
Phoenix Mars Results (http://www.bautforum.com/space-exploration/82316-phoenix-mars-results.html) (2008 December 11)

3488

19-November-2008, 09:57 PM

A few collated images.

Andrew Brown.

JonClarke

20-November-2008, 06:43 AM

The Phoenix Mars extended mission is over. Long live the Phoenix Mars mission.

Let's see that crunched data. Where are those first papers?

AGU Fall Meeting (December 15-19, 2008) (http://www.agu.org/meetings/fm08.old/index.php/Program/SessionSearch)

RIP, sweet Phoenix. So long and thanks for all the zeroes and ones!

There are also papers in press in Icarus and Science. I imagine there will be quite a few extended abstracts at the LPSC in March - or there would be if NASA staff were allowed to go to conferences (they have just been banned from doing that apparently by a Congressional ammendment).

Jon

PraedSt

20-November-2008, 07:15 AM

- or there would be if NASA staff were allowed to go to conferences (they have just been banned from doing that apparently by a Congressional ammendment).

Jon
Huh? Why is this? :confused:

JonClarke

20-November-2008, 08:05 AM

Huh? Why is this? :confused:

Apparently the congressman is/was a doctor, and since most medical conferences are jolliesrather than serious conferences, seems to think that cutting conference expenses for NASA emplyees looks like a good idea. It can then bignose himself about how much taxpayers $$ he has saved.

I have got this from three NASA employees in the past week, it is having a serious impact on their travel and conference plans.

Edit - see http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/no_nasa_conference_travel_in_2.php

PraedSt

20-November-2008, 09:01 AM

Apparently the congressman is/was a doctor, and since most medical conferences are jollies rather than serious conferences, seems to think that cutting conference expenses for NASA emplyees looks like a good idea. It can then bignose himself about how much taxpayers $$ he has saved.
That's the dumbest thing I've heard this week. Medical conferences are not jollies.

JonClarke

20-November-2008, 08:16 PM

That's the dumbest thing I've heard this week. Medical conferences are not jollies.

Not all of them. I have hear of a few at ski or tropic beach resorts whose programs have finished by midday. At least where I live. As a result the health profession regards conferences as something to be done in your own time at your own expense.

In my profession conferences are something work expects you to do and pays your expenses. The worst ones run from 8 am to 8 pm.

Jon

JonClarke

28-November-2008, 09:38 PM

http://scienceblogs.com/catdynamics/2008/10/no_nasa_conference_travel_in_2.php
It may already be biting. On the 12th I downloaded 44 Phoenix abstracts from the AGU conference web site. Now there are only six.

Jon

PraedSt

28-November-2008, 10:16 PM

You mean they've cancelled? That's sad Jon. It just seems so utterly bizarre.

JonClarke

29-November-2008, 12:43 AM

You mean they've cancelled? That's sad Jon. It just seems so utterly bizarre.

I can't think of any other reason why the titles would disappear.

I am wondering what will happen to the LPSC in March, as generally half the presentations are by NASA people.

JonClarke

29-November-2008, 01:03 AM

I can't think of any other reason why the titles would disappear.

I am wondering what will happen to the LPSC in March, as generally half the presentations are by NASA people.

Silly me! I was searching the 2007 fall meeting, not the 2008 one!

Apologies!

PraedSt

29-November-2008, 01:25 AM

That's ok. :)

So what's the status with this year's conference? (March I mean) All clear?

01101001

02-December-2008, 02:01 AM

NASA Phoenix Mission News: NASA Finishes Listening for Phoenix Mars Lander (http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/phoenix/news/phoenix-20081201.html)

After nearly a month of daily checks to determine whether Martian NASA's Phoenix Mars Lander would be able to communicate again, the agency has stopped using its Mars orbiters to hail the lander and listen for its beep.

9191

KaiYeves

04-December-2008, 11:55 PM

"Complete silence induces melancholy; it is an image of death." -Jean-Jacques Rousseau.

slang

02-January-2009, 09:50 PM

I haven't seen this new image reported here yet, apologies if I missed it.

From Spaceref.com: A Change of Seasons: A New Image of Phoenix on Mars from NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter (http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewsr.html?pid=30237)

Summer turned to autumn for the Phoenix Mars Lander on December 26, 2008. This image, taken on December 21 by the High Resolution Imaging Science Experiment (HiRISE) camera on NASA's Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter, shows the lander during the last waning days of northern hemisphere summer.

01101001

29-March-2009, 11:44 PM

01101001

29-October-2009, 03:42 AM

I was just wondering what things might be like for Phoenix now. It's been several Earth-months of Autumn for Phoenix now, since December 26, and the CO2 encasement has been underway for about 8 weeks. All-sol darkness begins around now. Winter starts May 22, and Spring October 27. Poor baby.

Ah. Spring!

Planetary Society Blog: HiRISE sees Phoenix in the Martian spring (http://planetary.org/blog/article/00002182/)

Before you look at the photos too closely, let me caution you against overinterpreting them. There's a lot of light areas and dark areas. Light areas could possibly be frost, but realize that the lighting geometry in this image is really extreme: the Sun had only crawled to one degree above the horizon when HiRISE snapped these photos. (I feel I should pause here to recognize how awesome it is that HiRISE even managed to get images showing anything intelligible under such low light.)
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Phoenix is clearly still where we left it. It's impossible to say anything about what condition its solar panels are in. I'm not sure if higher-sun HiRISE images would be able to tell us whether the panels are intact, but I am sure that the images we have aren't sufficient to determine that. Unfortunately, we won't know for sure what higher-sun images might tell us until and unless they manage to get Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter back out of safe mode and doing science again.

Ice encasement ends around November 20.

According to the Phoenix Twitter feed, it will be at least January before there will be enough hours of sunlight in the day to provide enough power for Phoenix to boot up again.