The Pope is Dead!

Sad news everyone. It now seems that His Holiness has passed on... :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

I'm sure that such a GREAT MAN will be missed by those of ALL religions as well as those of none...RIP JP II

:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

[Maksutov]

Goodbye...

I see no need for weeping, since, per Catholic dogma, as an heir to Saint Peter, he is now with Christ and God in Heaven.

Perhaps the next one will be more in tune with what is scientifically accurate about the current world.

Nevertheless, I remember the joy in the machine shop, where I worked back in the 1970s, among the Polish guys (about 70% of the workforce) when he got elected. It was nice to see Catholicism showing its ability to choose other than an Italian Pope.

May the acknowledgment of the validity of science prosper under the new Pope.

[Tuckerfan]

Actually, this Pope wasn't so bad about science. He did issue an official apology for what happened to Gallileo, said that evolution was how God worked, and in general had a more enlightened attitude about it than some of the fundamentalist Protestant leaders out there. That he didn't go as far as he could have is fact, but considering how backwards some of his predecesors and other religious leaders have been, he was progressive. I only hope that his successor is more open to social matters than he was.

[Sticks]

Link to BBC site (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4399715.stm)

[Glom]

You can also add he had a healthy interest in the space program. He was more scientific than a lot of those urban atheists out there.

[Candy]

After 26-year reign, pontiff dies at 84 (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/02/pope.dies/index.html)
A profoundly conservative leader, he reaffirmed many of the church's stances on issues such as abortion, homosexuality and the role of women in the church.
I do agree on 1 (or 2) out of 3 of his (Catholic) positions in this paragraph.

[Maksutov]

You can also add he had a healthy interest in the space program. He was more scientific than a lot of those urban atheists out there.
Oh, really?

Care to provide some evidence?

(this post is from a pro-nuclear urban atheist...)

[tmosher]

You can also add he had a healthy interest in the space program. He was more scientific than a lot of those urban atheists out there.
Oh, really?

Care to provide some evidence?

(this post is from a pro-nuclear urban atheist...)

http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP970111.HTM

[fossilnut2]

Hopefuly this is a good day for the environment. Perhaps the word 'condom' won't be a dirty word under the reign of the next Pope.

Strange how a bunch of old male cardinals elect another old cardinal who then dictates to an impoverished Third World woman whether or not she can ask her husband to use a piece of rubber.

[Andromeda321]

He funded the Vatican Observatory (http://clavius.as.arizona.edu/vo/R1024/VO.html) as well, affectionately known as the "Pope Scope."
RIP

[Russ]

You can also add he had a healthy interest in the space program. He was more scientific than a lot of those urban atheists out there.
Oh, really?

Care to provide some evidence?

(this post is from a pro-nuclear urban atheist...)

Over the years, several articles have appeared in both Astronomy Magazine and Sky & Telescope, that were authored by vatican astronomers. I'm not going to take the time to research them for you but know if you go looking you will find. :D

[Parrothead]

RIP. I was watching a biography on him on CBC Newsworld this afternoon. All I'll say is, he'll likely be remembered more for his political stance.

In regards to the Vatican Observatory, there was an article/interview "Coyne of the Realm" in the March 2005 issue of Astronomy.

[gethen]

I suspect he will be remembered as much for his advocacy of the poor and his stance against war for as much as anything. I didn't agree with some of his ideas, but was refreshing to have a "world leader" who spoke for the part of the world still living in abject povery, without regard for nationality--a social conscience, if you will.

[Sticks]

How long before someone claims he was bumped off by GWB, the CIA over oil :roll:

[Evan]

Religion give me a headache. Why is it if you hear anyone other than god talking to you that no one else can see they lock you up? But, if it is god then you are a holy man. Still, no one sees.

[Tuckerfan]

How long before someone claims he was bumped off by GWB, the CIA over oil :roll:I can't find a link at the moment, but someone was claiming that the Pope's actually been dead since before Easter, and the Vatican's been covering it up.

[frogesque]

How long before someone claims he was bumped off by GWB, the CIA over oil :roll:I can't find a link at the moment, but someone was claiming that the Pope's actually been dead since before Easter, and the Vatican's been covering it up.

And it belong right there beside the conspiracies of Elvis, JFK, Apollo, Roswell and all the other woo conspiracies. There is no reason to believe there is any difference between the time of his passing and the official announcement. No possible motive and nothing to be gained by a mistruth.

He had been ill for some time, It was fairly obvious that it was serious and he was 84. People die, kings die, queens die and Popes die. Let his flock grieve with peace and let him lie in dignity. His natural time had come.

[Tuckerfan]

How long before someone claims he was bumped off by GWB, the CIA over oil :roll:I can't find a link at the moment, but someone was claiming that the Pope's actually been dead since before Easter, and the Vatican's been covering it up.

And it belong right there beside the conspiracies of Elvis, JFK, Apollo, Roswell and all the other woo conspiracies. There is no reason to believe there is any difference between the time of his passing and the official announcement. No possible motive and nothing to be gained by a mistruth.

He had been ill for some time, It was fairly obvious that it was serious and he was 84. People die, kings die, queens die and Popes die. Let his flock grieve with peace and let him lie in dignity. His natural time had come.Oh, I quite agree. I can understand a slight delay while they get things organized at the Vatican, but that wouldn't take more than a couple of hours, since they had to know that this was coming.

[frogesque]

Religion give me a headache. Why is it if you hear anyone other than god talking to you that no one else can see they lock you up? But, if it is god then you are a holy man. Still, no one sees.

Plenty people have been locked up because, "God made me do it!"

[01101001]

How long before someone claims he was bumped off by GWB, the CIA over oil :roll:

Coast to Coast AM (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2005/03/16.html) a couple nights ago had a Father Wingate on, claiming knowlege of the Pope's, and our, futures:

The Pope will be cured of a serious illness, but shortly after that he will go into exile for eight months, though the world will be told he has died. During this period he will "bilocate" and communicate with various religious communities. Around the time of the exile, the United States will be invaded by a united Russian and Chinese army, aided by additional communist forces. The US will already be fighting a war on three fronts when this happens.
Unfortunately for his "vision", the faked death was supposed to happen after the Communist-Muslims invaded the Vatican.

It's such a bother when reality goes and screws up a prediction.

[Lycus]

How long before someone claims he was bumped off by GWB, the CIA over oil :roll:

Coast to Coast AM (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/shows/2005/03/16.html) a couple nights ago had a Father Wingate on, claiming knowlege of the Pope's, and our, futures:

The Pope will be cured of a serious illness, but shortly after that he will go into exile for eight months, though the world will be told he has died. During this period he will "bilocate" and communicate with various religious communities. Around the time of the exile, the United States will be invaded by a united Russian and Chinese army, aided by additional communist forces. The US will already be fighting a war on three fronts when this happens.
Unfortunately for his "vision", the faked death was supposed to happen after the Communist-Muslims invaded the Vatican.

It's such a bother when reality goes and screws up a prediction.
Well, obviously the prediction was really speaking of the next Pope. And if not him, then it was definitely talking about the Pope after him. And so forth...

[kucharek]

Some German tv station is currently getting some flak for not changing its program last evening. Shortly after the Pope's death was announced, they started their scheduled movie.

Die Hard

[Candy]

Some German tv station is currently getting some flak for not changing its program last evening. Shortly after the Pope's death was announced, they started their scheduled movie.

Die Hard
Priceless. :lol:

[Evan]

Plenty people have been locked up because, "God made me do it!"


So true. But, it was not taken as a delusional state, merely one that did not agree with the locker-uppers.

I'll stop now.

Religion give me a headache. Why is it if you hear anyone other than god talking to you that no one else can see they lock you up? But, if it is god then you are a holy man. Still, no one sees.

Me too, Evan... #-o

Pope JP II was still a great man, in my eyes, though. :o

[Glom]

(this post is from a pro-nuclear urban atheist...)

You're not a New Age greeny type, are you?

[Evan]

There does seem to be a fair number of self admitted atheists on the board, including myself. While religion and science are not mutually exlusive I have a feeling that a strong knowledge of science tends to discourage mysticism.

[Kullat Nunu]

There does seem to be a fair number of self admitted atheists on the board, including myself.

Count me in. :)

While religion and science are not mutually exlusive I have a feeling that a strong knowledge of science tends to discourage mysticism.

I'm sure it really does that. It's painful to see how narrow-minded religions often seem to be. In my point of view, there is no greater "blasphemy" than speak of religion in the scale of the universe. It sounds so terribly human-centered. But if the feeling I get when I watch the distant space is similar to what people have in their religious experiences, I can almost understand them.

[fossilnut2]

Ding Dong the Pope is dead. Ding Dong the wicked Pope is dead.

It's 2005 and humans gloat over how advanced we are! Oh well, any alien observers will get a kick out of our naivity.

The Pope does what! Talk to God? In a world in which we have proposed Relativity and the Quantum a billion humans still worship the equivalent of the Easter Bunny.

[jrkeller]

Ding Dong the Pope is dead. Ding Dong the wicked Pope is dead.


Wicked? How?

[AGN Fuel]

I'm sure it really does that. It's painful to see how narrow-minded religions often seem to be. In my point of view, there is no greater "blasphemy" than speak of religion in the scale of the universe. It sounds so terribly human-centered. But if the feeling I get when I watch the distant space is similar to what people have in their religious experiences, I can almost understand them.

I completely and utterly agree. Looking at the Omega Centauri globular cluster through a large telescope yet remaining so anthropocentric is a feat of mind-boggling mental gymnastics.

[Inferno]

It will be strange to have a new pope who's not some cranky old man who doesn't speak english.

Hopefully the next guy to get the job will be a little more nicer to homosexuals as well.

[Fortis]

It will be strange to have a new pope who's not some cranky old man who doesn't speak english.
Well, the last one could speak English (as well as French, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Portugese, and of course Polish.)

[The Supreme Canuck]

Ding Dong the Pope is dead. Ding Dong the wicked Pope is dead.

It's 2005 and humans gloat over how advanced we are! Oh well, any alien observers will get a kick out of our naivity.

The Pope does what! Talk to God? In a world in which we have proposed Relativity and the Quantum a billion humans still worship the equivalent of the Easter Bunny.

Look, whatever your views on religion, the Pope was a very good man who tried to (and did) make a difference in the world. I don't think that it's appropriate to mock him, especially right after his death.

I'll leave it at that as I don't want to get any nearer to topics discouraged on this board.

[Evan]

I agree. The "ding dong" etc comment was very inappropriate and shows a callous disregard for the feelings of those who do believe the Pope was something beyond merely a good man, which I believe he was, regardless of the disagreement I may have had with some of his former policies.

Fossilnut2, I would appreciate it if you would delete your post. I find it offensive.

[frogesque]

It will be strange to have a new pope who's not some cranky old man who doesn't speak english.
Well, the last one could speak English (as well as French, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Portugese, and of course Polish.)

Not to mention Latin

Edit: typo.

[Jpax2003]

I wrote this and posted it on FWIS Saturday.

Eulogy for Pope John Paul II
April 2, 2005 by JPax2003

Go now, O Holy Friend of mine,
And look not back to Rome.
Forsake this world for the divine,
With God, go to your home.

I did not know you on this earth,
Our paths were not the same.
Perhaps my acts detract my worth:
My path was walked in shame.

My head is bowed with due respect
And honor at your life.
Yet never would I thus suspect
My heart would be in strife.

I feel that I must strike a chord
In harmony with yours.
And sing a song unto our Lord
Upon these mortal shores.

Now go, O Holy Friend of mine,
No longer will you roam.
Forgiven, blessed, by the divine,
Eternally at home.


I'm not a Catholic and so that is the perspective in the poem. The church and other religious institutions may be off the mark per science, but I think that we all can take this as an opportunity for self-reflection and an examination of our lives.

[frogesque]

fossilnut2:

Could we keep this thread factual and respectful please?

[TriangleMan]

It will be strange to have a new pope who's not some cranky old man who doesn't speak english.
Well, the last one could speak English (as well as French, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Portugese, and of course Polish.)

Not to mention Latin
Are we missing a language? I heard he could speak nine languages. German?

[kucharek]

It will be strange to have a new pope who's not some cranky old man who doesn't speak english.
Well, the last one could speak English (as well as French, Italian, Russian, Spanish, Portugese, and of course Polish.)

Not to mention Latin
Are we missing a language? I heard he could speak nine languages. German?

Yup.

[Moose]

Could we keep this thread factual and respectful please?

Agreed.

Fossilnut2, that comment was in very poor taste.

[Candy]

This guy really put some thought into selecting the next Pope. :o

Job Description for the Next Pope (http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=2444&page=0)
To ensure the vitality of the Catholic Church, the successor to John Paul II must embrace science, reject globalization, reach out to the Islamic world—and brush up on economics.

MEMORANDUM:
TO: The College of Cardinals, Roman Catholic Church
FROM: R. Scott Appleby
RE: Selecting the Next Pope

In the 21st century, Your Eminences, the Catholic Church must vigorously address three related and pressing challenges that threaten the vitality and relevance of Christianity.

I refer, first, to a new and aggressive secularization, borne into the heart of modern societies by the dynamics of globalization. In traditional as well as developed societies, increasing materialism opens the way to a form of secularism that is indifferent or hostile to religious faith. A second critical development bearing directly upon Catholicism's future is the fierce internal contest for the soul of Islam, the great world religion that is both the Church's main rival for adherents and its potential ally against a purely materialistic concept of human development. And finally, the advent of genetic engineering and related forms of biotechnology underscores the need to upgrade dramatically Catholic education and expertise in the sciences and in bioethics.

The pontiff who succeeds His Holiness John Paul II (Karol Wojtyla) must address these three challenges boldly. In some cases, the new pope will draw on the example of John Paul II, but he must also define new horizons of understanding for the Church. Unless the next pope perceives the links between these challenges and their roots in the context of a historic debate over the relevance of religion to humanity, Catholicism will be unable to provide a viable alternative to the extremes of intolerant religious militancy and the self-absorbed materialism of a global consumer society.

The Challenge of Secularism

The notion that the human experience can be understood through purely empirical and social-scientific analyses, without reference to humankind's transcendent origins and orientation, is certainly not new. The reduction of the human being to an object is the abiding temptation of the modern world; witness the degradation of life in the wars, genocides, torture chambers, and social inequalities of the 20th century. But this erroneous view of humanity has found a powerful counterpart in the robust new form of globalization that now dominates economic, political, and cultural interactions among peoples. The commodification of social relations that turns individuals into cogs in the wheels of industry and politics now shapes virtually all forms of human interaction—even religion…

The Challenge of Islam

“There is no compulsion in religion,” says the Koran, and the world of Islam today seeks to avoid compelling and being compelled. This reality must influence the papal selection you may soon be asked to make. Certainly, the next pope must preserve and extend the Catholic realignment inaugurated by the Second Vatican Council and advanced by John Paul II—the realignment from state to civil society, from theocracy to democracy, from religious exclusivism to religious freedom. In addition, however, the next pope must take full measure of Islam as the most powerful global rival to Christianity for the hearts and souls of millions of Africans, Asians, Europeans—and, perhaps, Americans…

The Challenge of Science and Bioethics

The defense of human life in its sanctity and dignity, along with a rationale for Christianity as a key voice in the debate on scientific research and experimentation, must be central themes of the next pontificate…

Qualities of the Next Pope

In order to address these challenges, what qualities must the next pope possess? Oh, nothing more, really, than a capacious intellect formed by disciplined reading and study, not only of Catholic philosophy and theology but also of modern politics, economics, and science; a deep knowledge and personal experience of the languages, cultures, religious laws, and customs of the Islamic world; and a shrewd grasp of the state of Catholic institutions of higher education, especially a willingness to enhance their capacity to absorb new learning and insights from the world of biotechnology...

I have placed a tall order: You must select a pope who can proclaim the gospel to secularized and religiously agnostic political leaders, economists, World Bank officials, genetic engineers, and esteemed panels of ethicists who recommend decisions on questions of life and death. You must select a pope who can preserve the Catholic Church's hard-won political independence and resist the temptation to forge alliances with secular powers. And you must select a pontiff who recognizes the affinities of Catholicism with Islam in such a way that he can avoid entrapment with extremists while forging a working alliance with moderates who, like the Catholic Church, seek to influence culture and education over the long term rather than take power directly.

Some of you possess one or more of these qualities; finding the person with a combination of them in abundance will certainly require the assistance of the Holy Spirit. You have my best wishes, in addition to my prayers.

R. Scott Appleby is professor of history and the John M. Regan Jr. director of the Joan B. Kroc Institute for International Peace Studies at the University of Notre Dame. He is the coauthor of, most recently, Strong Religion: The Rise of Fundamentalisms Around the World (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 2003).

[Sigma_Orionis]

While I disagreed with a few of Pope John Paul II's views I openly admit that he handled to the best of his abilities the great responsability he had on his shoulders (the religious leader of one of the world's most important religious movements).

I feel is a good thing he can rest now, he was definetely a tough cookie, coping with a murder attempt and its consecuences, Parkinson's Disease and old age while being a leader and a very public figure is not exactly a bed of roses.

Just in case anyone forgot, I am an atheist too :)

[Fram]

Can anyone tell me why Italy (and Brazil) have announced a period of national mourning?

[papageno]

Can anyone tell me why Italy (and Brazil) have announced a period of national mourning?
Italy: tradition, I guess. After all, the Vatican is in Rome.

Wait a minute...
I knew it! This is the first step to get Berlusconi on the papal throne. The presidency is next, then (a little change of shedule).

And I thought it was a joke. [-(

[SeanF]

Can anyone tell me why Italy (and Brazil) have announced a period of national mourning?
President Bush has ordered US flags to be flown at half-staff until the Pope is interred . . .

Ding Dong the Pope is dead. Ding Dong the wicked Pope is dead.

It's 2005 and humans gloat over how advanced we are! Oh well, any alien observers will get a kick out of our naivity.

The Pope does what! Talk to God? In a world in which we have proposed Relativity and the Quantum a billion humans still worship the equivalent of the Easter Bunny.

What nonsense, fossilnut!! :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

[fossilnut2]

"Look, whatever your views on religion, the Pope was a very good man"

No he wasn't. Tens of millions of the poorest of the poor in Third World countries were told not to use condoms. Heard of overpopulation? AIDS?

I'm glad he's dead. I'm glad for the poorest of the women in the barrios of Sao Paulo and AIDs-ravaged villages of Zimbabwe.

UN worker: "here's what AIDS is...here's how to use a condom...here's how to prevent AIDS and having your 9th child"

Priest (as directed by the Pope): "You will not use condoms'

It's too bad this self-righteous Pope hadn't been more concerned about the poorest people's day to day miserablre lives than the plight of condom-ravaged souls.

[Fram]

Can anyone tell me why Italy (and Brazil) have announced a period of national mourning?
President Bush has ordered US flags to be flown at half-staff until the Pope is interred . . .

Would any of those countries do the same if e.g. the dalai lama dies? If not, why the preferential treatment of the pope (well, Italy probably has a closer relation, but even that is strenuous at best)? The mixing of religion (and 'friendly' religion at that) and politics is getting out of hand in some countries, and that is rather frightening.
I don't mind that much that many politicians and leaders are going to the interment (spelling?) of the pope, they do that for many leaders of another country (they'll all be there for Rainier of Monaco as well). But a period of national mourning? They won't do that for good old Rainier, I bet...

[Candy]

"Look, whatever your views on religion, the Pope was a very good man"

No he wasn't. Tens of millions of the poorest of the poor in Third World countries were told not to use condoms. Heard of overpopulation? AIDS?

I'm glad he's dead. I'm glad for the poorest of the women in the barrios of Sao Paulo and AIDs-ravaged villages of Zimbabwe.

UN worker: "here's what AIDS is...here's how to use a condom...here's how to prevent AIDS and having your 9th child"

Priest (as directed by the Pope): "You will not use condoms'

It's too bad this self-righteous Pope hadn't been more concerned about the poorest people's day to day miserablre lives than the plight of condom-ravaged souls.
I agree with most of what you say. You just need to word it more diplomatic. Otherwise, you will get people riled. :wink:

[Fram]

"Look, whatever your views on religion, the Pope was a very good man"

No he wasn't. Tens of millions of the poorest of the poor in Third World countries were told not to use condoms. Heard of overpopulation? AIDS?

I'm glad he's dead. I'm glad for the poorest of the women in the barrios of Sao Paulo and AIDs-ravaged villages of Zimbabwe.

UN worker: "here's what AIDS is...here's how to use a condom...here's how to prevent AIDS and having your 9th child"

Priest (as directed by the Pope): "You will not use condoms'

It's too bad this self-righteous Pope hadn't been more concerned about the poorest people's day to day miserablre lives than the plight of condom-ravaged souls.
I agree with most of what you say. You just need to word it more diplomatic. Otherwise, you will get people riled. 8-[

Indeed. It was the 'dancing on the grave' impression you gave that was a bit over the top and insensitive. He wasn't a good man in my opinion, and I have no problem saying that before or after his death, but the way you said it... #-o

[TriangleMan]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next pope to be "pro-contraception" either. If Catholism interprets Biblical doctrine to mean that contraception is wrong, even in the knowledge of diseases like AIDS and how it is destroying communities in Africa, then that is unfortunate but ultimately they are entitled to their beliefs on the matter.

[Candy]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next pope to be "pro-contraception" either. If Catholism interprets Biblical doctrine to mean that contraception is wrong, even in the knowledge of diseases like AIDS and how it is destroying communities in Africa, then that is unfortunate but ultimately they are entitled to their beliefs on the matter.
I'm more concerned about their position on homosexuality. What do you think will happen in this respect? 8-[

[fossilnut2]

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next pope to be "pro-contraception" either. If Catholism interprets Biblical doctrine to mean that contraception is wrong, even in the knowledge of diseases like AIDS and how it is destroying communities in Africa, then that is unfortunate but ultimately they are entitled to their beliefs on the matter.

I suppose Stalin and Hitler were entitled to their beliefs. It doesn't mean we should accept them. Stalin interpreted Marx and Hitler established an Arryan philosophy...

The Pope follows the Bible. That justifies what? It no more justifies the ban of condoms than Hitler could use Nietshe to justify white supremacy.

[Candy]

I suppose Stalin and Hitler were entitled to their beliefs. It doesn't mean we should accept them. Stalin interpreted Marx and Hitler established an Arryan philosophy...

The Pope follows the Bible. That justifies what? It no more justifies the ban of condoms than Hitler could use Nietshe to justify white supremacy.
Does the Bible say to not wear a condom? I'm pretty sure it doesn't. It's my understanding that most people don't follow a faith 100%, so I don't know why this wearing of the condom bothers you so much. Especially, if you're Catholic. All you have to do is go to confession each week and all is forgiven. :P

I'm not Catholic, so forgive me for any misconceptions.

[A Thousand Pardons]

Does the Bible say to not wear a condom? I'm pretty sure it doesn't.

But the Catholic hardline does. However, the hardline also would disallow the casual sex that would necessitate the condoms--so if it were followed, there would not be the repercussions that fossilnut2 is attributing to it. A lot of people don't wear condoms, whether they are Catholic or not.
It's my understanding that most people don't follow a faith 100%, so I don't know why this wearing of the condom bothers you so much. Especially, if you're Catholic. All you have to do is go to confession each week and all is forgiven.
There's that approach too. Not that an omniscient God hasn't seen that one before.

[Candy]

There's that approach too. Not that an omniscient God hasn't seen that one before.
:lol:

I sure do like you ATP! :D

[tmosher]

Yes, but there is a major guilt factor in going to confession (at least there is for this lapsed Catholic boy).

Would you tell every nasty thing you've done to someone?

[Inferno]

Would any of those countries do the same if e.g. the dalai lama dies?

Isn't each Dalai Lama believed to be the reincarnation of the last? If so, there's no need for such ceremony when he dies, since he never will!

[Candy]

Would any of those countries do the same if e.g. the dalai lama dies?

Isn't each Dalai Lama believed to be the reincarnation of the last? If so, there's no need for such ceremony when he dies, since he never will! :D

[TriangleMan]

I'm more concerned about their position on homosexuality. What do you think will happen in this respect? 8-[
Unlikely to change, from the news articles that I've read on the "front-runners" it doesn't appear that any of them will make radical changes in that doctrine. Remember that because John Paul II was pope for so long he ordained all but a handful of the cardinals (I think only five or six out of the 100+ were ordained by previous popes) so the cardinals are generally in line with John Paul II's conservative views.

[Sticks]

I am not a Catholic

Have never been a Catholic

Will never be a Catholic

aware of instances where our church grouping has had a run in with the Catholic church's command and control structure

So by all the evidence, I should be hostile to that system, but as we do not want this thread locked, I will resist.

However on the issue of contraception, I have to point out that the Pope had a point.

If people live by the codes laid down in the Bible, Talmud or the Koran, then sexual activity is limited to within marriage.

Within a faithful marriage the need for such contraception is reduced

As for aids, the value of a male contraceptive device is debated

These things can fail
It has also been said that the HIV virus is smaller than the micro pores in the latex. Remeber how helium leaks through the skin of a childs rubber balloon. (Sorry can not remember where I heard this one, it was such a long time ago)

With regards to the female contraceptive pill

What are the long term health problems related to this medication?

It was said to liberate women, i.e from the threat of pregnancy. What happened, women were expecteded to take it so the men could have even more of their wicked way, and if a pregnancy did occur it was, "But I thought you were on the pill, how can you do this to me..."

Once again women were enslaved, by the very thing that was said to liberate them.

This is the story that the liberal intelligensia kept quiet about.

[Nicolas]

What are the long term health problems related to this medication?

In general none, as far as I know.

It was said to liberate women, i.e from the threat of pregnancy.
And in many cases it does just that and nothing more than that. There are men who don't have "wicked ways" and who are married to an equally unwicked woman and just don't feel like having 12 children.

What happened, women were expecteded to take it so the men could have even more of their wicked way, and if a pregnancy did occur it was, "But I thought you were on the pill, how can you do this to me..."

It takes two to do wicked things...


Not to hijack this topic, but if there would be a male contraceptive pill, think of the nasty situations when she is pregnant because he had forgotten to take one..

[Moose]

Not to hijack this topic, but if there would be a male contraceptive pill, think of the nasty situations when she is pregnant because he had forgotten to take one..

Responsibility is a two-way street. Having reliable (and convenient) long-term contraceptive options for both men and women means that neither partner is ever put in a leap-of-faith position in terms of consequence management.


I always thought I'd be a mom.
Sometimes I wish for a mistake.
The longer that I wait the more selfish that I get.
You seem like you'd be a good dad.
"A Simple Kind of Life" - No Doubt


(Ignore the fact that I listen to No Doubt).

This verse raises my hackles every time I hear it. I don't like the idea of relinquishing my reproductive freedom, even a little, when the stakes are so high. There are too many "I lied" horror stories out there for me to feel differently.

Which means condoms, even though I'm not a big fan of "just in time" contraception. My willpower isn't reliable when I've got the proverbial "bit in my teeth".

But I sure would like the option of a reversable, long term "always there" solution. The "peace of mind" benefits would be worth managable side effects.

[Fram]

However on the issue of contraception, I have to point out that the Pope had a point.

If people live by the codes laid down in the Bible, Talmud or the Koran, then sexual activity is limited to within marriage.

Within a faithful marriage the need for such contraception is reduced

As for aids, the value of a male contraceptive device is debated

These things can fail
It has also been said that the HIV virus is smaller than the micro pores in the latex. Remeber how helium leaks through the skin of a childs rubber balloon. (Sorry can not remember where I heard this one, it was such a long time ago)



The value of condoms against AIDS (when used correctly) is only debated by religious people, as far as I know. The analogy with a balloon is false. Other conditions, other manufacturing / testing, and molecules are slightly smaller than viruses.
And you know as well as I do that the result of the Pope's action against condoms is that people still have sex outside of their marriage, but don't use condoms. Having principles is useless when you're blind for reality. Why was it so hard to say: 'the correct thing is to only have sex within your marriage, but if you don't, then please at least play it safe and use condoms'?

[TriangleMan]

It has also been said that the HIV virus is smaller than the micro pores in the latex. Remeber how helium leaks through the skin of a childs rubber balloon. (Sorry can not remember where I heard this one, it was such a long time ago)
www.unaids.org disagrees with that. IIRC this was a myth spread by some religious groups that opposed contraceptives, including some members of the Catholic Church in Africa. Latex condoms are an effective barrier against STDs, including HIV.

That said condoms are not a 100% fail-safe method. UNAIDS estimates that condoms are 97-98% effective - breakage, slippage, incorrect use and poor-quality are some of the reasons cited for the failure of this method of contraception.

[jumbo]

Im saddened by his passing in so much that i d be sadened by the death of anyone. I also have sympathy for those who have felt loss since he was the head of their faith.

However i think that in the future a dispassionate analysis of this mans actions may be possible. I doubt it will be as favourable as current news reports. Like any human being he seems to have had good points and bad. Perhaps now is a time to remember the good and in the future come to terms with the bad.

As for aids, the value of a male contraceptive device is debated

These things can fail
It has also been said that the HIV virus is smaller than the micro pores in the latex. Remeber how helium leaks through the skin of a childs rubber balloon. (Sorry can not remember where I heard this one, it was such a long time ago)

This idea came from a misunderstanding of an academic paper i believe. Its actaully not true. The micro pores are not of a size that will permit the virus to pass through. In fact when the author of the original paper quoted by the vatican sources found out what had been claimed about his work he responded saying that it had been badly misinterpreted and at worst a couple of the samples would have leaked an insignificant amount of water. No infection would have occured. Often the size of the micro pores qutoes is from the latex for making rubber gloves, which are manufactured to a different standard then contraceptives.
It should be mentioned that this inaccurate statement was spread by a vatican cardinal rather than the pope himself. Though the pope was certainly in a position to find the truth and settle the matter.

[fossilnut2]

People play down the Pope's position on condom use and birth control as a 'side issue'.

It isn't. It is the issue on which this Pope has the most influence on the daily lives of most of his followers...especially the least educated and poorest.

People praise th Pope and then add on the contraceptive issue ...'the next Pope will likely be the same'.

Any wonder why? There was no outrage. Only over the top hero worship status for an old man, elected by old men, who will be praised as 'great leaders' when they perpetuate a regimen of poverty. I found it very revealing in the year 2005 that women, especially non-Catholic women, sing the praises of a man who adamantly refused to recognize them as equals. We wouldn't praise leaders of Apartheid or southern segregationists but the Pope gets a free pass.

[Maksutov]

[edit]If people live by the codes laid down in the Bible, Talmud or the Koran, then sexual activity is limited to within marriage.
While worrying about the vast amounts of money wasted on the space program that could have been used to subsidize "poor people", did you ever read one of those tracts you referenced?

I wonder.

Meanwhile, hey, let's look at some excerpts from one of your examples: the bible.

>>>
The First Book of Moses: Called Genesis

19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after
him,

19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.

19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let
me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good
in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they
under the shadow of my roof.

19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his
two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt
in a cave, he and his two daughters.

19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and
there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of
all the earth:

19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we
will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the
firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when
she lay down, nor when she arose.

19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto
the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him
drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we
may preserve seed of our father.

19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the
younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay
down, nor when she arose.

19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
The First Book of the Chronicles

1:32 Now the sons of Keturah, Abraham's concubine: she bare Zimran,
and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah. And the
sons of Jokshan; Sheba, and Dedan.

1:33 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Henoch, and Abida,
and Eldaah. All these are the sons of Keturah.
Samuel II

3:7 And Nogah, and Nepheg, and Japhia,

3:8 And Elishama, and Eliada, and Eliphelet, nine.

3:9 These were all the sons of David, beside the sons of the concubines, and Tamar their sister.
The Book of Judges

8:30 And Gideon had threescore and ten sons of his body begotten: for
he had many wives.

8:31 And his concubine that was in Shechem, she also bare him a son,
whose name he called Abimelech.
>>>

If people live by the codes laid down in the Bible, Talmud or the Koran, then sexual activity is limited to within marriage.
Well, I could go on and on, but let's all follow the good book: polygamy, incest, prostitutes, etc. Verily I say unto thee, yee-ha!

[Sticks]

What happened, women were expecteded to take it so the men could have even more of their wicked way, and if a pregnancy did occur it was, "But I thought you were on the pill, how can you do this to me..."

It takes two to do wicked things...


But what if the man in the relationship is a right thug who uses intimidation. The wife / partner might just allow him his way to avoid another beating


www.unaids.org disagrees with that. IIRC this was a myth spread by some religious groups that opposed contraceptives, including some members of the Catholic Church in Africa. Latex condoms are an effective barrier against STDs, including HIV.

That said condoms are not a 100% fail-safe method. UNAIDS estimates that condoms are 97-98% effective - breakage, slippage, incorrect use and poor-quality are some of the reasons cited for the failure of this method of contraception

and


This idea came from a misunderstanding of an academic paper i believe. Its actaully not true. The micro pores are not of a size that will permit the virus to pass through. In fact when the author of the original paper quoted by the vatican sources found out what had been claimed about his work he responded saying that it had been badly misinterpreted and at worst a couple of the samples would have leaked an insignificant amount of water. No infection would have occured. Often the size of the micro pores qutoes is from the latex for making rubber gloves, which are manufactured to a different standard then contraceptives.
It should be mentioned that this inaccurate statement was spread by a vatican cardinal rather than the pope himself. Though the pope was certainly in a position to find the truth and settle the matter.


I suspect it was from some one in the religious world I may have heard it from. It sounded kind of scientific and from the description I thought of the balloon analagy #-o

Is there a link to this research paper by any chance

Also I raised this earlier, is there a link to information on the long term effects of the femail contraceptive pill?

I had heard somewhere that there was a problem with too much eostrgen leaching into the environment. Probably yet another "small scarlet fish"

[Grendl]

Sticks said: With regards to the female contraceptive pill

What are the long term health problems related to this medication?

It was said to liberate women, i.e from the threat of pregnancy. What happened, women were expecteded to take it so the men could have even more of their wicked way, and if a pregnancy did occur it was, "But I thought you were on the pill, how can you do this to me..."

Once again women were enslaved, by the very thing that was said to liberate them.

This is the story that the liberal intelligensia kept quiet about.
There are some health benefits to the pill as well as detriments. It helps ward off endometriosis, irregular cycles, hormone problems, bad acne, and very painful cycles. There are bad effects to, but they can be minimized by not taking the pill if you are high risk for those side-effects. We don't really know the long-term effects of lots of medicines and or environmental factors, do we?

So, the men could have even more of their wicked way? What about me having my wicked way? Gosh, you make us women sound like we are amoeba-like and so gullible!

I have always felt it is the woman's responsibility to insure she doesn't get pregnant. That's just practical thinking, as some men aren't even capable of washing clothes properly. We are the ultimate keepers of our bodies and in my world, "He got me pregnant!" doesn't exist.

Women haven't been enslaved by contraception: quite the opposite. They have been able to act upon the same natural impulses as men without suffering the "enslavement" of a child, if they so choose. Choice is liberating. I won't bother arguing the morality of such a view, because we'll probably get locked.

I don't know what to say about your last line, but I'm a woman and I think that the "liberal intelligentsia" isn't the problem: what I see as a problem is that a lot of men have opinions on this matter and a lot of men represent us in government. That's an odd dichotomy, you know? A group of men trying to make policies about us. But that's for another Internet forum...

[Andreas]

It will be strange to have a new pope who's not some cranky old man who doesn't speak english.
Other people have commented on the language thing, I'll comment on the age thing. From one commentary I read, 26 years was a bit longer than the time one pope is in command than the church leaders wished for. A minimum age of 70 is probably considered a requirement in the elections for the next pope.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for the next pope to be "pro-contraception" either. If Catholism interprets Biblical doctrine to mean that contraception is wrong, [...]
But, AFAIK, it's the pope who decides in matters of faith. They defined themselves as being infallible in that matter, too. So it's not that "Catholicism interprets it that way" and the pope has to follow. More like the other way round.

[Nicolas]

What happened, women were expecteded to take it so the men could have even more of their wicked way, and if a pregnancy did occur it was, "But I thought you were on the pill, how can you do this to me..."

It takes two to do wicked things...


But what if the man in the relationship is a right thug who uses intimidation. The wife / partner might just allow him his way to avoid another beating

[

Then I shouldn't blame the pill, as the pill clearly is not the root of the problem here.

[Sticks]

While worrying about the vast amounts of money wasted on the space program that could have been used to subsidize "poor people", did you ever read one of those tracts you referenced?


The reference to the space spending I see is made because I have voiced the concerns that many people out the have about spending priorities. Science does not operate in a vacuum, but competes for funding with other demands and the politicians will listen to these concerns, especially if they see votes in it.



If people live by the codes laid down in the Bible, Talmud or the Koran, then sexual activity is limited to within marriage.
Well, I could go on and on, but let's all follow the good book: polygamy, incest, prostitutes, etc. Verily I say unto thee, yee-ha!

Interesting items from the Old Testament

Item 1

The first example is something that was recorded, not sanctioned. It happened and of course the Bible does put a prohibition on incest. The bible also records people going with prostitutes, (or what they think of as prostitutes Genesis 38:15-26), but clearly later condemns such practice

Item 2
Poligamy, did happen

Was it in the original plan ?

Matthew 19:3-9 would indicate not, as would 1Timothy 3:2 and Titus 1:6

Again a case of something that happened and was recorded


Item 3 people having lots of children

True, that happened even here in the west. Infant mortality was rather high in ages past and they did not have cute retirement plans and pension arrangements like we do today, with social services to pick up the pieces.

Children were the retirement plan. Still considered to be the case in the third world today.

Here in the west it is a different story, and I did say
Within a faithful marriage the need for such contraception is reduced


Note reduced not eliminated


----------------------------------


you make us women sound like we are amoeba-like and so gullible!


I apologise if I offended you here. My case here is not that women are gullible, but that some men can be demanding and selfish. Your desciption of men is one I would have to concur with. I would also add, that men on average are physically stronger and can be more violent. If they can have an excuse like "it's ok - she is on the pill " then they will take what they want.

A good reason for women to have self defence lessons here


I won't bother arguing the morality of such a view, because we'll probably get locked.


Quite a good idea

I thought I was arguing from the welfare of the women, rather from a moral stand point. And I apologise if that sounds condescending and patronising

[Sticks]

Then I shouldn't blame the pill, as the pill clearly is not the root of the problem here.

I agree

What I was getting at is that the man was kind of using "the pill" as a sort of weapon / excuse to get what he wants, and passing off his aggressive bullying behaviour onto the women.

A case of something being a double edged weapon rather than a complete protection.

[Nicolas]

I would also add, that men on average are physically stronger and can be more violent. If they can have an excuse like "it's ok - she is on the pill " then they will take what they want.

A good reason for women to have self defence lessons here

As an average man with an average women, I am a bit offended by this.
From my experience:
*the average man is physically stronger than the average woman.
*the average man is not violent.
*the average man does not force his wife to do things she doesn't want. He doesn't use violence to do such things, and doesn't need excuses for it.

Surely some men are violent and force women to do things they don't want, but again I am offended if you think this is average behaviour.

And women taking self defence lessons is not a solution in my opinion. It doesn't do anything to the cause: violent men. If you handle the porblem of violent men, there is no need for women to defend themselves against violent men. Of course they shouldn't make a witch hunt from it, as it would be too easy for some women to scream that there husband is beating them to get rid of him for whatever reason. There are groups of men who get beaten by their wife. so the problem isn't a problem of "the average man", nor of "the average woman", and self defense lessons won't help these things at all.

[Grendl]

Grendl wrote:

you make us women sound like we are amoeba-like and so gullible!

Sticks wrote:
I apologise if I offended you here. My case here is not that women are gullible, but that some men can be demanding and selfish. Your desciption of men is one I would have to concur with. I would also add, that men on average are physically stronger and can be more violent. If they can have an excuse like "it's ok - she is on the pill " then they will take what they want.
I'm not easily offended, it's just discussion, I hate being ignored more than anything! I don't agree with your making a blanket statement about the enslavement of women if this is your example. Men who will physically overpower and/or rape women don't bother to figure in whether the woman is on the pill or not. I also don't believe that most men take advantage of a woman with the thought that, "Well, she's on the pill, so who cares." If they are taking advantage of someone, and the risk of her getting pregnant is their uptmost concern, they'll use condoms. Otherwise, they don't give a scata. I don't know the statistics exactly of pregnancies occurring from drunken sex, but let's just say that's very common. In those kind of cases, I feel the woman is equally responsbile.

And it can go both ways--women do ,in fact, sexually assault men. Contraception isn't a factor in their decisions.

Again, I'll' reiterate that contraception is, in fact, liberating, because it gives a woman much more control of her body. By the same token, lack of it, can be used as a wiley way to enslave a man.

Edit: can't type

[Nicolas]

Grendl wrote:

you make us women sound like we are amoeba-like and so gullible!

Sticks wrote:
I apologise if I offended you here. My case here is not that women are gullible, but that some men can be demanding and selfish. Your desciption of men is one I would have to concur with. I would also add, that men on average are physically stronger and can be more violent. If they can have an excuse like "it's ok - she is on the pill " then they will take what they want.
I'm not easily offended, it's just discussion, I hate being ignored more than anything! I don't agree with your making a blanket statement about the enslavement of women if this is your example. Men who will physically overpower and/or rape women don't bother to figure in whether the woman is on the pill or not. I also don't believe that most men take advantage of a woman with the thought that, "Well, she's on the pill, so who cares." If they are taking advantage of someone, and the risk of her getting pregnant is their uptmost concern, they'll use condoms. Otherwise, they don't give a scata. I don't know the statistics exactly of pregnancies occurring from drunken sex, but let's just say that's very common. In those kind of cases, I feel the woman is equally responsbile.

And it can go both ways--women do ,in fact, sexually assault men. Contraception isn't a factor in their decisions.

Again, I'll' reiterate that contraception is, in fact, liberating, because it gives a woman much more control of her body. By the same token, lack of it, can be used as a wiley way to enslave a man.

Edit: can't type

It was that control of your body that made me feel it is better there is a female contraception pill instead of a male one. Not because I wouldn't be willing to take them, but because of the ontrol of your body. In the end it still is the women who get pregnant.

It is good to hear women talking about sex/getting pregnant as something 2 people do and are responsible for, instead of "men getting women pregnant". And the fact that you aknowledge that women too can sexually assault men and show violent behaviour.

[Candy]

It is good to hear women talking about sex/getting pregnant as something 2 people do and are responsible for, instead of "men getting women pregnant".
Nicolas, I don't think I've ever heard a woman say, "He got me pregnant." I'm assuming you meant on purpose. I've heard, "We got pregnant by accident." Of course, that's the world I live in. :)

And the fact that you aknowledge that women too can sexually assault men...
No comment. :wink:

[Nicolas]

It is good to hear women talking about sex/getting pregnant as something 2 people do and are responsible for, instead of "men getting women pregnant".
Nicolas, I don't think I've ever heard a woman say, "He got me pregnant." I'm assuming you meant on purpose. I've heard, "We got pregnant by accident." Of course, that's the world I live in. :)


I don't personally know them, but there are women thinking this of sex and getting women pregnant as something men do. Not that it is average behaviour :).

[Candy]

It is good to hear women talking about sex/getting pregnant as something 2 people do and are responsible for, instead of "men getting women pregnant".
Nicolas, I don't think I've ever heard a woman say, "He got me pregnant." I'm assuming you meant on purpose. I've heard, "We got pregnant by accident." Of course, that's the world I live in. :)


I don't personally know them, but there are women thinking this of sex and getting women pregnant as something men do. Not that it is average behaviour :).
I think of a man as being able to impregnate me, if I allow him to do so. I won't allow him to do so, therefore, contraceptives are a must. I prefer condoms due to my age, smoking, and the fact that I haven't dated in almost two years. :(

[Sticks]

I would also add, that men on average are physically stronger and can be more violent. If they can have an excuse like "it's ok - she is on the pill " then they will take what they want.

A good reason for women to have self defence lessons here

As an average man with an average women, I am a bit offended by this.
From my experience:
*the average man is physically stronger than the average woman.
*the average man is not violent.
*the average man does not force his wife to do things she doesn't want. He doesn't use violence to do such things, and doesn't need excuses for it.



#-o

Doing several things at once

I did not mean to say that men on "average" are violent

I just wanted to point out that men on average are physically stronger, when I used the word average

It is just that is a man chooses to be violent, he has more chance of over powering a female

May be I should put the JCB away :oops:

[Nicolas]

OK. I thought "average" referred to everything in that quote.

[jumbo]

I suspect it was from some one in the religious world I may have heard it from. It sounded kind of scientific and from the description I thought of the balloon analagy d'oh!

Is there a link to this research paper by any chance
I believe the idea was made public by Cardinal Alfonso Lopez Trujillo president of the Pontifical Council for the Family. It has been spread widely throughout religious circles and even appears in a chick tract. This group is against contraception and the claim was made in a work entitled 'Family Values versus Safe Sex'

The page http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/3845011.stm describes this claim and the work of Dave Lytle whose work has in the opinion of Lytle, been misinterpreted.

[fossilnut2]

The Catholic Church should make the most vulnerable the focus of its greatest efforts. Yes, women in western countries have a degree of self responsibility and they can held accountable for their actions. BUT...they have the means to take responsibility

Unfortunately all the debate about what a woman should or shouldn't do doesn't help a 19-year-old young mother in some remote village in Mozambique. Possibly illiterate. Possibly with a husband with AIDS. Possible already the mother of 3 or 4 children...one with Malaria and one a swollen liver from parasites.

This is who the Catholioc Church has let down. Theologic debate in Europe or Canada or the USA is largely tinkering around the edges of people's lives....questions such as 'Can a divorced woman get married in a Church if....etc'. In many Developing world countries Catholic doctrine is much more than tinkering. A Pope's decision determines whether or not a young woman can even bring up the subject of a condom with her husband and whether or not she can expect any even a shred of human dignity and hope in her life.

[Moose]

Fossilnut2, I just want to say that this was much better in tone. It's too the point, no inappropriate vitriol, and I don't think I can disagree with any of it, except possibly in shades and nuances.

One can be in polar disagreement with someone without being inappropriately disrespectful about their death.

Thank you.

[A Thousand Pardons]

Well, I could go on and on, but let's all follow the good book: polygamy, incest, prostitutes, etc. Verily I say unto thee, yee-ha!
You left out the parts about murder, mayhem, rape and pillage. They're in there too. And a salt. :)
Theologic debate in Europe or Canada or the USA is largely tinkering around the edges of people's lives....questions such as 'Can a divorced woman get married in a Church if....etc'. In many Developing world countries Catholic doctrine is much more than tinkering.
The doctrine is the same no matter which country

I believe we have a ban on religious argument/advocacy on this board?

[Glom]

So condoms are safe, right?
Asking as a someone who has nothing but respect for our rubbery friends.

A few years ago we had someone from a family planning centre come in to give us a talk on sex education and stuff. She stressed the importance of the age of legal consent and said that if an underage girl came into the centre asking for condoms, which they provide for free, she would provide them. The idea being that if she didn't because the girl was underage, it probably wouldn't stop her from having sex. Given the choice, protected underage sex is better than unprotected underage sex.

Are we witnessing the new more lax BA? He seems to be allowing us more leeway to discuss more sensitive issues. The thread hasn't been locked yet.

[gethen]

I've been checking every day, expecting it to be locked at any moment as well.

[fossilnut2]

Fossilnut2, I just want to say that this was much better in tone. It's too the point, no inappropriate vitriol, and I don't think I can disagree with any of it, except possibly in shades and nuances.

One can be in polar disagreement with someone without being inappropriately disrespectful about their death.

Thank you.

I politely disagree. I'm still glad the Pope is dead just as you'd be glad if Osama Bin Laden was dead...even though OBL hasn't caused a fraction of the misery among the poor in Third World countries as the Pope's position on condoms and birth control.

The world showing en masse hysteria in 2005 for a dead old man who claims to talk to God in 2005 doesn't need my endorsement. There are enough fools to take that position. You can join them but as has often been been said... 'just because most people thought the world was flat, didn't make it flat'.

When the Pope claims that his positions are based on 'inspiration' from God just what does that mean? Is he (a) a liar or (b) self-delusional? I'll give him the benefit of the latter but the 'inspiration' that perpetuates poverty and disease on millions is real non the less.

YOU can worship him. Sing his praises. Act like one of the groupies who would kiss his ring. I'll just keep up a tradition of speaking out against mythology and the ignorance it perpetuates. I'm happy to see the demise of a culture of undemocratic old men telling young women, under pain of of the wrath of God, what to do with their own bodies.

[Moose]

I politely disagree.

That was polite? :roll:

I take back what I said. Your position appears to be entirely contemptable, and wrong on more levels than I'm comfortable contemplating in one sitting.

My interest in what you have to say is pretty much spent, but if you're dying for the details, let me know and we can head over to FWIS's flame forum and I can spell it out for you. Then "dance" on your "grave".

Or not.

[fossilnut2]

Feel free to dance on my grave. But not too hard. As a paleontologist I might just want to be dug up at some future date and become the 'type' species for homo sapiens.

All kidding aside. If nobody 'pulled your strings' to get a reaction...or the strings of the tens of thousands lined up at the Vatican to view a dead body, then nothing changes. No one notices. We treat the Pope as O.J. Jackson as Princess Di as Terry Shiavo as Michael Jackson ...who shot President Kennedy and exactly what is the real story on Laci Peterson....was she really killed by...? (meanwhile 10,000 Americans of minority races are murdered every year in the USA).

The public, and more and more the world public, is happily manipulated by CNN, Foxnews, etc. On CNN I just watched a piece on Robert Novak (arch right wing pundit) and his conversion to Catholicism. This is on CNN. Why? Is it because it is newsworthy or because it reflects an interesting story to boost the ratings.

The Iraq war? Ratings dipped. Pentagon news conferences? Talking generals? All 'old stuff'...bring on Terry Shiavo and an almost dead Pope. Next month?

At the end ogf the day none of this probably matters. As a scientist I know it doesn't change the direction that the Earth revolves around the Sun or Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle....so be it.

[mopc]

"The Pope is Dead"

So is Timothy Leary

[Grendl]

I politely disagree.

That was polite? :roll:

I take back what I said. Your position appears to be entirely contemptable, and wrong on more levels than I'm comfortable contemplating in one sitting.

My interest in what you have to say is pretty much spent, but if you're dying for the details, let me know and we can head over to FWIS's flame forum and I can spell it out for you. Then "dance" on your "grave".

Or not.
Fossilnut, Moose does have a point here. Although I can agree with many of your sentiments and am no ardent fan of any religious leaders, I can't act as if I don't live in the same world as them and those who admire them. In short, some of your comments are digressing from an objective discussion on the Pope to an attack on his religion. Attacking a religion, though I know for you it's religion vs science, is dicey here. It's great this thread hasn't been locked, but I can see how you might have offended people. Wall to wall TV coverage is annoying--I haven't watched the news in a week. I have CNN on now and they were just talking about Cornwall's opinion of Camilla and a little bit of Cornwall's history.

I see the Pope's role in the Cold War as signficant and I can appreciate that. I can appreciate his apology regarding Galileo. Other than that, my family is Greek Orthodox and they don't acknowledge the Pope, though many like my grandmother went to see him and still think he was a vital religious figure. To me, I just look at him as a man associated with a religion I don't agree with. I don't like the way the Vatican dealt with all the scandals as of late, too. I'm not glad he's dead or not--it's not his fault that millions look up to him...he was just one of many, but saying "I'm glad he's dead," isn't going to win hearts here or anywhere: some people, like my parents, believe in religion, but are not shut down to science, nor do they agree with many of the Church's positions on matters of abortion, science and marriage.

I can't type! Comma fix.

[Grendl]

I thought this ironic, in light of my comments to Fossilnut, about living with others who think the Pope was deserving of all this posthumous attention. When I got home from work yesterday, I received the official Vatican paper from my mother. She thought I would find it interesting even though she knows darn well what a "heathen" I am. My mother and I don't even communicate that much anymore.

The paper is called "L'Osservatore Romano," and is very large--24x17 laying flat. It costs EU 395 a year and a copy is EU 0,90. The pictures are huge, as well. It is interesting as far as papers go. I think my mother has become more religious in her twilight years, but mainly she saw it as a passing of time: "How fast the years pass! Imagine: he became the Pope at the same time I came to Italy."

On the back page is a full page picture of the Pope with the quote in large type: <<Non abbiate paura>> which BabelFish translates to: "You do not have fear."

I suppose, Fossilnut, that this is what I mean about having to live with those who admire him, or at least, those who associate him as a part of history passing through time.

Edit: I hate typing!

[The Bad Astronomer]

This thread is exactly the reason I don't want people talking about politics or religion in this section.

Criminy.

fossilnut2, what you have been saying may be your opinion, but it's guaranteed to stir up trouble here. Discussing the merits of religion is one thing, but saying you're glad the Pope is dead, and calling his followers "fools"?

Consider yourself sternly warned. Do anything like that again and your gone.

This thread is locked.