Irish Bookmakers Take Bets on Next Pope

[Candy]

Irish Bookmakers Take Bets on Next Pope (http://dailynews.att.net/cgi-bin/news?e=pri&dt=050404&cat=strange&st=stranged898oms o0&src=ap)
While the world discusses the passing of one pope and imminent election of another, Ireland is putting its money where its mouth is _ and having a bet on Pope John Paul II's successor.
"Who will be the next pope?"

Cardinal Dionigi Tettamanzi of Milan
Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria
Cardinal Oscar Andres Rodriguez Maradiaga of Honduras
Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger of Germany
Cardinal Claudio Hummes of Brazil
Cardinal Jaime Lucas Ortega y Alamino of Cuba
Cardinal Ennio Antonelli of Florence
Cardinal Christoph Schoenborn of Austria
Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re of Italy
Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos of Colombia
Cardinal Crescenzio Sepe of Italy
Cardinal Giacomo Biffi of Italy
Father Ted <--- I'm not sure he's supposed to be on the list. :lol:
Father Dougal Maguire <--- Nor this guy. :P

[Candy]

My money's on this guy - Cardinal Francis Arinze of Nigeria!

[Andromeda321]

Father Ted?!? SO betting for him! :D

[Gullible Jones]

As am I... :lol:

[mike alexander]

My first thought was that Ted Hesburgh is a little old, and not a cardinal.

[Candy]

Father Dougal Maguire has been added to the list. 8-[

[Enzp]

Father Guido Sarducci

Pretty much my money is on him being Catholic, and I bet he will not be of a minority.

[Candy]

Good Grief, look at the list (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&category=SPECI ALS&ev_class_id=45&id=520).

PaddyPower is even doing Next Pope's Papal Name (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&selectvcgrp=23 733&category=SPECIALS&selected_bir_index=). I don't gamble, so I don't know how to tell who has the better odds. 8-[

[kucharek]

Good Grief, look at the list (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&category=SPECI ALS&ev_class_id=45&id=520).

PaddyPower is even doing Next Pope's Papal Name (http://www.paddypower.com/bet?action=show_type_by_main_market&selectvcgrp=23 733&category=SPECIALS&selected_bir_index=). I don't gamble, so I don't know how to tell who has the better odds. 8-[

AFAIK, a quote of e.g. 11 - 4 means: You'll get 11 bucks for every 4 bucks you waged if you win.

What's the catholic church's opinion on gambling? Gambling is fun and money and AFAIK, catholic doctrine isn't were well on these things. And isn't Ireland pretty catholic?

[Candy]

And isn't Ireland pretty catholic? Don't tell the Protestants. :wink:

[Lycus]

Twenty bucks on Hummes.

[Sticks]

I'm betting it will not be me :lol:

[A Thousand Pardons]

"Who will be the next pope?"
You didn't list Bergoglio, but that's my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110). Your Paddypower link shows him at 20-1 odds. The only thing he don't have going for him is the avuncular mien.
And isn't Ireland pretty catholic? Don't tell the Protestants. :wink:
But Northern Ireland, where they do have a Protestant majority, is not now a part of the country of Ireland. Ireland itself (Encyclopedia Britannica) is 88.4% Catholic, and only 4.6% protestant (Irish Anglican 3%, other Christian 1.6%, other 3.5%, nonreligious 3.5%).
My first thought was that Ted Hesburgh is a little old, and not a cardinal.
There's always someone who will bet on Notre Dame

[jfribrg]

My grandmother said she figured that sooner or later a pope would take the name of Urban. The way she figured it, it had been several hundred years since there was a pope Urban, so that name was overdue.

I remember the way the John Paul I was the bookie's delight. Everyone who bet on the new pope's name lost.

[farmerjumperdon]

I'd have to go with the center for North Carolina, May. Did you see that guy demolish the inside defense of Illinois? I mean, the Illini came back nice a couple times with their superior outside shooting and guard play, but over the course of the game May just punished them relentlessly.

[Candy]

I'd have to go with the center for North Carolina, May. Did you see that guy demolish the inside defense of Illinois? I mean, the Illini came back nice a couple times with their superior outside shooting and guard play, but over the course of the game May just punished them relentlessly.
For Pope? :lol:

[Argos]

There´s an old saying: he who enters a conclave as pope exits as a cardinal. :wink:

[Zachary]

250-1 for Dougal as pope? What kind of odds are those! :evil:

[Argos]

The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D

[Fram]

The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D

Well, you are supposed to take on a new name when you are the new pope, so I guess Tettamanzi might just call himself Argos I, but I doubt it :lol:
But it's true, you don't have to be a cardinal to become the pope, it's just tradition.

[farmerjumperdon]

It makes sense that you would have to move up the heirarchy to become Pope. The Catholic Church has become much like any other political entity, except with not much of an army.

Of course, in other places the heirarchy is falling apart, including the US. Used to be you had to have held some sort of serious political office to get the attention and experience to be President. Now you can be a grade B movie actor, then Governor of California, then President.

There are even people trying to remove the born-in-residence requirement so that Ahnold can follow in Reagan's footsteps.

Minnesota tried it another way: a Wrestler (the fake kind) who then became a grade B actor, then became governor. Initially there was speculation he might follow Reagan. This was very quickly forgotten (like in 3 days) as his term immediately devolved into a Lucy skit as the Gov became fixated on choo-choos and spent the state into everlasting debt by building an extremely underutilized and financially draining transit system so tourists could easily get back and forth between downtown and the Mall of Amazingly Bad Taste.

But I digress. Ahnold is a nice guy who's steroid use doesn't seem to be effecting him - yet, Jesse was good for a few laughs (how could having a cartoon character for Governor not be good for a few laughs), the choo-choo is very satisfying in a nostalgic sense, and the Mall of America is, well . . . the tourists like it.

[jfribrg]

It makes sense that you would have to move up the heirarchy to become Pope. The Catholic Church has become much like any other political entity, except with not much of an army.

Of course, in other places the heirarchy is falling apart, including the US. Used to be you had to have held some sort of serious political office to get the attention and experience to be President. Now you can be a grade B movie actor, then Governor of California, then President.

There are even people trying to remove the born-in-residence requirement so that Ahnold can follow in Reagan's footsteps.

Minnesota tried it another way: a Wrestler (the fake kind) who then became a grade B actor, then became governor. Initially there was speculation he might follow Reagan. This was very quickly forgotten (like in 3 days) as his term immediately devolved into a Lucy skit as the Gov became fixated on choo-choos and spent the state into everlasting debt by building an extremely underutilized and financially draining transit system so tourists could easily get back and forth between downtown and the Mall of Amazingly Bad Taste.

But I digress. Ahnold is a nice guy who's steroid use doesn't seem to be effecting him - yet, Jesse was good for a few laughs (how could having a cartoon character for Governor not be good for a few laughs), the choo-choo is very satisfying in a nostalgic sense, and the Mall of America is, well . . . the tourists like it.

How this relates to the name of the next pope is beyond me.....

[farmerjumperdon]

I did acknowledge the digression, and will now formally apologize. But it was a well-linked digression - don't you think? I mean, it follwed some comments about what you had to be before becoming pope, which turned out to be mostly tradition - since you only have to be a baptized male. It reminded me of how tradition has fallen by the wayside here, with examples of Reagan, Schwarznagger, and Ventura; which then led me to a couple relevant observations of why such traditions are valuable.

Sorry, won't do it again - today.

[Argos]

The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D

Well, you are supposed to take on a new name when you are the new pope, so I guess Tettamanzi might just call himself Argos I, but I doubt it :lol:

Pity.. It would be a cute Greek name for a Roman 'emperor'. Nothing´s perfect...

[TriangleMan]

The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D
For example Celestine V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V) wasn't a Cardinal when he was elected Pope, he was a hermit who lived in a mountain cave under a vow of poverty. He initally refused the Papacy when told of the Cardinals' decision. He didn't reign long, one of his decrees was to allow a Pope to abdicate - which he then did.

[fossilnut2]

There was a twelve year old Pope.

Perhaps school children around the world (girls excluded of course) can write a 500 word essay on why they should be Pope.

'Dear God'

My name is Bobby and I live in .... My favorite television show is...

[Argos]

The Catholic canonic code establishes that any baptized male is eligible for pope. So, an Argos I is theoretically possible. :D
For example Celestine V (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pope_Celestine_V) wasn't a Cardinal when he was elected Pope, he was a hermit who lived in a mountain cave under a vow of poverty. He initally refused the Papacy when told of the Cardinals' decision. He didn't reign long, one of his decrees was to allow a Pope to abdicate - which he then did.

A kind of religious Cincinnatus (http://www.dl.ket.org/latinlit/historia/people/heroes/cincinnatus01.htm) (apologizing for a brief thread hijacking)

[fossilnut2]

I'm eligible too! :lol:

but celibacy? :o

I think I'll pass on applying at this time and take a stab at it in a few decades.

(is there a sign on the Vatican lawn 'Pope Wanted'?)

[jofg]

What's the catholic church's opinion on gambling? Gambling is fun and money and AFAIK, catholic doctrine isn't were well on these things.

For the most part Catholic's have no problem with gambling (Bingo anyone?) Many of the Protestant religions, however, view gambling in a very poor light, basing it in part anyway on the Roman guards "casting lots" for Christ's clothing as He was on the cross.

[Enzp]

Something I did not know about - not being remotely Catholic - was that a person who is married and then converts to Catholicism can then become a priest but will not be required to give up his marriage to do so. So there are married priests. So it is even possible to have a married pope.

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr and Mrs Pope George IIXVI.

It could happen...

Maybe not right away...

[A Thousand Pardons]

I did acknowledge the digression
Yes, but usually the words "But I digress" are followed by an attempt to steer back to the topic. :)

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr and Mrs Pope George IIXVI.

It could happen...
No, "IIXVI" is not a legal numeral :)

[A Thousand Pardons]

"Who will be the next pope?"
You didn't list Bergoglio, but that's my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110). Your Paddypower link shows him at 20-1 odds. The only thing he don't have going for him is the avuncular mien.
And, now, he has a scandal:
Just days before Roman Catholic cardinals begin meetings to select a new pope, a human rights lawyer filed a criminal complaint against an Argentine mentioned as a possible contender, accusing him of involvement in the 1976 kidnappings of two priests.

Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio's spokesman on Saturday called the allegation "old slander."

So, I guess he was the front runner after all :)

[Candy]

When is the day of the Pope announcement? I've been studying/practicing for my VB.NET final, so I'm getting behind on the thread readings.

[kucharek]

When is the day of the Pope announcement? I've been studying/practicing for my VB.NET final, so I'm getting behind on the thread readings.
Today, in the afternoon, they will begin. The new Pope will be announced when he is elected. Each day, they have some four runs. A 2/3 majority is needed during the first 30 or 34 runs. Then the cardinals can agree that an absolute majority would be sufficient.
Most people expect that a new pope is quickly elected. JP II didn't die suddenly, so there was much time to prepare.

Harald

[Eroica]

Tettamanzi to become Pope Gregory XVII

At 175-1 against, it's surely worth a flutter. :D

[jofg]

When is the day of the Pope announcement? I've been studying/practicing for my VB.NET final, so I'm getting behind on the thread readings.
Today, in the afternoon, they will begin. The new Pope will be announced when he is elected. Each day, they have some four runs. A 2/3 majority is needed during the first 30 or 34 runs. Then the cardinals can agree that an absolute majority would be sufficient.
Most people expect that a new pope is quickly elected. JP II didn't die suddenly, so there was much time to prepare.

Harald

It would be surprising if they do not choose a new Pope this week. And with the heavy media coverage of the conclave, I think the new Pope will be a big news story....

[Maksutov]

I'm eligible too! :lol:

but celibacy? :o [edit]
Don't worry about it. History records the many illegitimate children and mistresses the popes have had. The "celibacy" thing is, ah, how shall we say, a "non-issue".

Onan, heal thyself! :D

[kucharek]

It would be surprising if they do not choose a new Pope this week. And with the heavy media coverage of the conclave, I think the new Pope will be a big news story....

There are times where it is easy to be a visionary... :D

[TriangleMan]

It would be surprising if they do not choose a new Pope this week. And with the heavy media coverage of the conclave, I think the new Pope will be a big news story....
Over 100 Cardinals, all eligible, and you need a 2/3 majority. Even the media usually point to 4-5 frontrunners. That sounds tough to rectify quickly . . .
Looks like I was wrong and jofg was right, that was pretty quick, 2 days.

[Makgraf]

My grandmother said she figured that sooner or later a pope would take the name of Urban. The way she figured it, it had been several hundred years since there was a pope Urban, so that name was overdue.

I remember the way the John Paul I was the bookie's delight. Everyone who bet on the new pope's name lost.
A Pope Urban might not be the best signal to send to the Muslim world, what with Urban II. My personal favourite possibilities: Lando II or Conon II. Conon The Pope-arian!

What's the catholic church's opinion on gambling? Gambling is fun and money and AFAIK, catholic doctrine isn't were well on these things.
Well, interestingly enough, Catholics aren't allowed to gamble on who will be the next Pope.

Josef Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be in the lead, so if his supporters can hold out until no majority is needed it looks like he wins. He actually has his own online fan club (http://www.ratzingerfanclub.com/) who says about him (and remember these are his supporters):
As Grand Inquisitor for Mother Rome, Ratzinger keeps himself busy in service to the Truth: correcting theological error, silencing dissenting theologians, and stomping down heresy wherever it may rear its ugly head.
:o

[SeanF]

Josef Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be in the lead, so if his supporters can hold out until no majority is needed it looks like he wins.
I don't think there's ever a time where no majority is needed . . . they start out requiring a super-majority and eventually retreat to a simple majority, but I don't think there's a procedure for electing a Pope by a plurality . . .

[kucharek]

First smoke:

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=680577

[Makgraf]

Josef Cardinal Ratzinger seems to be in the lead, so if his supporters can hold out until no majority is needed it looks like he wins.
I don't think there's ever a time where no majority is needed . . . they start out requiring a super-majority and eventually retreat to a simple majority, but I don't think there's a procedure for electing a Pope by a plurality . . .
Yeah, I meant to say "no supermajority". Thanks for catching that one.

[sarongsong]

Looks like a new Pope along with a new Italian government to boot:
April 18 (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=apZgGw_hh9H4&refer=top_world _news)
"Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi plans to resign to form a new government for the final year of the parliamentary term..."

[kucharek]

More black smoke...

Do they've a special permission by the environmental authorities...? ;-)

Livestream at
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/television/

[Candy]

More black smoke...

Do they've a special permission by the environmental authorities...? ;-)

Livestream at
http://www.vatican.va/news_services/television/
We had a meeting at work today. I work in Operations, so we have CNN or MSNBC on at all times. It comes with the territory.

I kept looking at the TV before the meeting started. I'm not religious, but I found it very impolite of a Black Male Baptist to comment on the stupidity of the Catholic Ritual for introducing a new Pope. I didn't say anything, but my impression of this said person is just deteriorating day by day.

Sorry, just wanted to throw in my two cents. I find myself getting prejudice to certain ethnic backgrounds when they say things like this. I don't mean to, but I do. 8-[

[A Thousand Pardons]

I find myself getting prejudice to certain ethnic backgrounds when they say things like this. I don't mean to, but I do. 8-[
Baptists?

[kucharek]

White smoke!

Let's see who got it.

[A Thousand Pardons]

Weird. CNN is reporting white smoke and bells, but this article (http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/04/19/pope.tuesday/index.html) says this morning's ballots were burned at 11:30am (5:30 EDT), and the afternoon ballots were scheduled to be burnt at 7pm (1:00 EDT). They're early?

PS: That link has now changed to indicate the appearance of white smoke. It still has "As black smoke billowed Monday from a chimney atop the Sistine Chapel, the crowd of thousands outside cheered. "

[Candy]

I find myself getting prejudice to certain ethnic backgrounds when they say things like this. I don't mean to, but I do. 8-[
Baptists?
You forgot the Black Male part, and yes.

[A Thousand Pardons]

I figured it wasn't males, but I dunno

[Candy]

I figured it wasn't males, but I dunno :P

[A Thousand Pardons]

Ratzinger!

Benedict XVI

[CTM VT 2K]

Benedict XVI

[kucharek]

That will be interesting...

[A Thousand Pardons]

They'll probably just have to do it again in a couple years

[TriangleMan]

Ratzinger!

Benedict XVI

Figured as much since they were done so quickly.

[Candy]

Does he speak English? 8-[

[kucharek]

Does he speak English? 8-[

German, Italian, French, English and Spanish.

[Candy]

:-k

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?

[TriangleMan]

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?Maybe you had money bet on someone else? :wink:

[kucharek]

Well, he is very conservative, but as the old Vulcan proverb says, 'Only Nixon could go to China', he may be in for some surprises.
And it was widely said that after JP II an interims Pope would be good who consolidates the Vatican and prepares the next Pope.

[fossilnut2]

:-k

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?

Probably because the way the crowd all started to shout 'Sieg Heil'.

Badastronomy is a science forum and in 2005 the world is still focused on a bunch of old men who elect another old man to get directions from God on what young women should do with their own bodies.

This time next week the focus will be off the Pope and back on to Michael Jackson.

[collegeguy]

We can get ready for all the woo-woos now. Benedict XVI had been mentioned as the next pope in Saint Malachy prophecies.

[A Thousand Pardons]

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why.
aha. You are prejudiced against males.

[Candy]

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif

[kucharek]

:-k

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why. :-?

Probably because the way the crowd all started to shout 'Sieg Heil'.

Thank you very much for showing your objectivity as it is necessary for a science orientated board like the BABB. Maybe you want to greet me, too? :evil:

[Candy]

Not feeling good about this choice. Not sure why.
aha. You are prejudiced against males.
I am only prejudice against what someone says, so yes, you are correct. :wink:

[The Supreme Canuck]

fossilnut2:

I also have to say that that is a singularly offensive comment. Please edit it.

[Candy]

Call me Candy, but what does 'Sieg Heil' mean?

[fossilnut2]

This new Pope was a Hitler Youth.

Sorry, but the immaturity is on the side of the Pope groupies who accept that old men should be telling young women and couples not to use condoms...especially in places like black Africa with millions (yes millions) infected with AIDS.

(a policy this new Pope agrees with)

[Candy]

This new Pope was a Hitler Youth.

Sorry, but the immaturity is on the side of the Pope groupies who accept that old men should be telling young women and couples not to use condoms...especially in places like black Africa with millions (yes millions) infected with AIDS.

(a policy this new Pope agrees with)
You do know that most kids now a days don't even remember the Nazi's?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Candy:

"Sieg Heil" was said by Nazis while saluting.

fossilnut2:

The issue here is not the validity of the Pope or of his doctrines. That should not be discussed on this board at all. The issue is your use of insulting language toward the Pope and his followers. I would be equally outraged if you used this language in describing other religions or groups. Please edit your post.

[Candy]

Candy:

"Sieg Heil" was said by Nazis while saluting.


OMG. I thought they were saying 'Hi el' Hitler!

I still don't know what 'Sieg Heil' means. :oops:

[edited]

[fossilnut2]

"The issue here is not the validity of the Pope or of his doctrines"

Huh?

Hitler's issue doesn't include his doctrines? Osama's not his doctrines? The Catholic church not it's doctrines?

Then what's it all about, Alfie? It is very much about doctrines. A bunch of old guys who have impact on the daily lives of millions of people around the world.

'Take off that condom! The Pope says so!'

'You' can get caught up in the hero worship as did the the followers of Osama, the Nazis, Stalin and others. I prefer to listen to the message. It is very much about the doctrine. I wouldn't hae given Hitler a 'pass' just to be nice on his inaugural day in office.

[TriangleMan]

This new Pope was a Hitler Youth.
Considering his age in the late 1930s I'd have been more surprised had he not been. Anyway, from the Times online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-1572667,00.html)
In 1937 Ratzinger’s father retired and the family moved to Traunstein, a staunchly Catholic town in Bavaria close to the Führer’s mountain retreat in Berchtesgaden. He joined the Hitler Youth aged 14, shortly after membership was made compulsory in 1941.

He quickly won a dispensation on account of his training at a seminary. “Ratzinger was only briefly a member of the Hitler Youth and not an enthusiastic one,” concluded John Allen, his biographer.
Forced to join HY then quickly got out of it. What's the big deal?

He also served in the army:

Two years later Ratzinger was enrolled in an anti-aircraft unit that protected a BMW factory making aircraft engines. The workforce included slaves from Dachau concentration camp.

Ratzinger has insisted he never took part in combat or fired a shot — adding that his gun was not even loaded — because of a badly infected finger. He was sent to Hungary, where he set up tank traps and saw Jews being herded to death camps. He deserted in April 1944 and spent a few weeks in a prisoner of war camp.

Gee, a German youth serving in the army during WWII. Not particularly shocking either.

[A Thousand Pardons]

I prefer to listen to the message. It is very much about the doctrine.
Me too, but you are distorting the message. Take it somewhere else.

[Candy]

Huh?
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/liebe/h030.gif

[TriangleMan]

Hitler's issue doesn't include his doctrines? Osama's not his doctrines? The Catholic church not it's doctrines? Then what's it all about, Alfie? It is very much about doctrines.
Then why the Hitler Youth remarks?

I'm not thrilled with the stance of the Catholic Church on numerous issues but to say the Pope is evil because of his abstinence-only stance seems to me to be analogous to blaming the Surgeon General for all smoking deaths because he tells everyone to quit smoking rather than use nicotine patches. I don't get it.

[The Supreme Canuck]

fossilnut2:

It is not about the doctrine. You are free to disagree with it. I won't and can't stop you.

What I am taking issue with is twofold:

First, doctrine simply should not be discussed on this board. Read the FAQ.

Second, you are expressing your disagreement with this doctrine in a very insulting way. I urge you to watch your language.

Added: You may be surprised to hear that I agree with some of your views, particularly concerning the use of contraceptives. You would just get a better response if you worded your objections more diplomatically.

[fossilnut2]

Evil?

Where did I say evil? Evil is a religious concept. I don't believe in a god.

I think this new Pope, as did the last pope, as did Hitler, will do great harm to millions. Especially the poor and most vulnerable. They are told NOT to use birth control and especially condoms. Millions will continue to get infected with AIDS. That's the real world of science. Nothing to do with 'evil'. There is a virus and it passes via body fluids. No spirits or spooks involved. The AIDS virus is not 'evil'.

Put someone in a gas chamber and they will die. Tell young women in Mozambique they can't use condoms and they will get AIDS and die. The 'evil' is just the overlay that religious groupies put over top of it. Both actions result in death...death perpetuated by ignorance. This new Pope perpetuates that ignorance. Millions will suffer and die because of some old man's belief in mythology and even sadder is the acceptance of that ignorance by otherwise compassionate people.

[WHarris]

I'm finding your bigotry against Catholics very tiresome. :evil:

[fossilnut2]

fossilnut2:

. You would just get a better response if you worded your objections more diplomatically.


You wouldn't have responded and would have went about your merry way praising the virtues of the new Poppe...caught up in the cultural fanfare as long as CNN kept in on the front page. A month from now the Pope would be settled behind his desk writing memos to bishops in Africa instructing the village priests to preach against the use of condoms. All, however, would unnoticed by those of us in the West who would go about our daily lives not giving it a second thought.

Yes, you are a fellow Canadian. Like white bread and vanilla ice cream. Deference to authority. Virtuous as long as nothing rocks the boat and everyone holds hands and sings Kumbaya... I'd even hazard to guess you live in Ontario.

[Candy]

I'm finding your bigotry against Catholics very tiresome. :evil:
I don't think he's a bigot. He just doesn't like what our previous leaders have done to shape humanity. He just happens to be lumping Hitler in with the Pope.

[A Thousand Pardons]

I'd even hazard to guess you live in Ontario.
Did you guess that because his location says Ottawa?

The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board. We do not avoid them, we just hold them somewhere else.

[TriangleMan]

The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board.
Good point. I'll stop now.

[Candy]

Where's Dr. Brian Cox to calm the waters? 8)

[Lycus]

The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board. We do not avoid them, we just hold them somewhere else.

Such as >>> FWIS (http://www.loresinger.com/FWIS/index.php)

[A Thousand Pardons]

Where's Dr. Brian Cox to calm the waters?
Don't you mean "loopy the waters"? :)

[Candy]

Where's Dr. Brian Cox to calm the waters?
Don't you mean "loopy the waters"? :)
Oh, Men Tock (talk)! :wink:

[The Supreme Canuck]

The point is, that heated discussions about religion and politics are not allowed on this board.
Good point. I'll stop now.

Yes. I'm done with this too.

(Content edited to discourage further debate)

[jofg]

OK, at the risk of extending this doctrine hijack and getting myself a warning, I feel it's important to explain something in regard to the Catholic Church's stance on birth control.

Yes, the church teaches against the use of "man-made" birth control. But it also teaches that pre-marital sex and adultery are sins. So, if a Catholic is following the no condom teaching, AND the no pre-marital sex and no adultery teachings, then there should be no concern about AIDS.

If the Catholic is following the no condom teaching but ignoring the no pre-marital or adultery teaching, then yes, AIDS would be a concern. But don't blame the church, because the person is picking and choosing which teachings to follow and putting himself at risk.

So the Catholic Church teaches NO sex outside of marriage, and in a marriage there should be no man-made birth-control used. Follow these teachings and AIDS isn't an issue.

OK, hope that made sense. And I'm NOT saying this is right or wrong nor do I want to see a huge debate about these policies...just thought to be fair it was important that the no birth control teachings were put in perspective....

[Fram]

OK, at the risk of extending this doctrine hijack and getting myself a warning, I feel it's important to explain something in regard to the Catholic Church's stance on birth control.

Yes, the church teaches against the use of "man-made" birth control. But it also teaches that pre-marital sex and adultery are sins. So, if a Catholic is following the no condom teaching, AND the no pre-marital sex and no adultery teachings, then there should be no concern about AIDS.

If the Catholic is following the no condom teaching but ignoring the no pre-marital or adultery teaching, then yes, AIDS would be a concern. But don't blame the church, because the person is picking and choosing which teachings to follow and putting himself at risk.

So the Catholic Church teaches NO sex outside of marriage, and in a marriage there should be no man-made birth-control used. Follow these teachings and AIDS isn't an issue.

OK, hope that made sense. And I'm NOT saying this is right or wrong nor do I want to see a huge debate about these policies...just thought to be fair it was important that the no birth control teachings were put in perspective....

I can follow all the directives I want and still get AIDS (through sex, I mean), if my husband/wive (as a hypothetical good Catholic, I would of course be married) didn't. How am I to know if he/she cheats on me?

Apart from that: what if catholic politicians, apothecaries, whatever, forbid the sales of condoms because the Church is against it and the country is in majority catholic? Aren't they guilty then of every sinner that dies of AIDS because he couldn't buy a condom of the good Catholics?

I know many catholics that do sell condoms etcetera, I'm just pointing to problems with the Catholic stance and the influence it has in some countries.

[jofg]

I agree Fram.

[SeanF]

I can follow all the directives I want and still get AIDS (through sex, I mean), if my husband/wive (as a hypothetical good Catholic, I would of course be married) didn't. How am I to know if he/she cheats on me?
Make your husband wear a condom not for birth control but because you don't know where the filthy so-and-so's been?

That's a PSA I've never seen.

[fossilnut2]

"So the Catholic Church teaches NO sex outside of marriage, and in a marriage there should be no man-made birth-control used. Follow these teachings and AIDS isn't an issue."


Good grief. I know you mean well but your disregard for the most vulnerable is startling. You are a babe in the woods.

The young 18-year-old mother in some African village should allow her husband to infect her with AIDS because? Because what? Her husband SHOULD HAVE not visited pristitutes in Nairobi and SHOULD HAVE not have had sex with 10 other prostitutes?

This isn't about Western women in affluent societies who have control of their own lives and bodies. This is about young women, already with 2 or 3 or 5 children who have no power over their own lives. Young women who are semi-literate who have nothing in life but the protection of their husbands in male dominated clans. Do you think they have any power over what is done to their bodies. do you think that when they get AIDs they just drop into the MAYO clinic foir their drugs? Do you think their orphaned children all collect survival benefits to put them through college?

People try to help. People come into the villages and teach birth control and condom use. Then the local priest is directed by the Pope to tell those same woman not to use condoms...tells their husbands it is a sin.

[A Thousand Pardons]

You are a babe in the woods.

This is about young women, already with 2 or 3 or 5 children who have no power over their own lives. Young women who are semi-literate who have nothing in life but the protection of their husbands in male dominated clans. Do you think they have any power over what is done to their bodies. do you think that when they get AIDs they just drop into the MAYO clinic foir their drugs? Do you think their orphaned children all collect survival benefits to put them through college?
Are you going to make them use condoms?

People try to help.
People try to help in a lot of ways. Not everybody agrees with that way of "helping."

It's a political and religious issue.

[fossilnut2]

"Are you going to make them use condoms?"

No, but I'm not going to accept that a 70 something old guy in Rome should be telling them it's a sin to use a condom. I will speak out against such a despicable policy that brings misery to the most vulnerable.

[A Thousand Pardons]

You

are a babe in the woods

but I mean that in a nice way

[SeanF]

No, but I'm not going to accept that a 70 something old guy in Rome should be telling them it's a sin to use a condom.
Not even if it is a sin? :)

[Charlie in Dayton]

Ladies and gentlemen, Mr and Mrs Pope George IIXVI.
It could happen...
Maybe not right away...

No, "IIXVI" is not a legal numeral.

Oh, he just left a space out...

Mr and Mrs Pope George II XVI...ya know, George the Second the Sixteenth...kinda like an eleventeenth-generation Prez Bush...

...that was a chilling thought...

...and ain't that nickname a hoot?...Papa Ratzi...didn't he co-star in 'Midnight Cowboy'?...

[Jules]

The lack of condom usage in africa is only partialy to do with catholtism - it is actually frowed upon by african tribal tradition.

[the_shaggy_one]

The lack of condom usage in africa is only partialy to do with catholtism - it is actually frowed upon by african tribal tradition.

not to mention that unprotected sex with a virgin is widely believed to cure AIDs...

](*,)

[Candy]

The new Pope is starting to grow on me, especially, when he smiles.

[Eroica]

We can get ready for all the woo-woos now. Benedict XVI had been mentioned as the next pope in Saint Malachy prophecies.
No he wasn't.

De gloria olivae
The Glory of the Olive.

Some say that this prediction of St. Malachy, “From the Glory of the Olive,” refers to the Order of St. Benedict, because they have a well-known group within their order called the 'Olivetans.' There is some merit to this idea. But it does not mean that this Pope will come from the Order of St. Benedict, but rather that he will take the name of Saint Benedict and will live in imitation of him.

c. The next Pope after John Paul II will take the name Pope Benedict XVI, in imitation of Saint Benedict and also of Pope Benedict XV. Just as Pope Benedict XV was an emissary of peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI be an emissary of peace. Just as Pope Benedict XV sought peace and spoke of peace and wrote papal documents seeking peace, so will Pope Benedict XVI do also. Just as Pope Benedict XV failed to achieve peace in the world, so will Pope Benedict XVI fail to achieve peace in the world. Just as the Pontificate of Benedict XV began prior to World War I, so will the Pontificate of Benedict XVI occur prior to World War III. After the Pontificate of Benedict XVI, World War III will begin. The Arab nations will threaten and attack the United States; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer Europe; they will threaten, attack, invade and conquer the northern part of Africa. It is God's will.

I wonder when that page was last updated. :wink:

[TriangleMan]

The Arab nations . . . will threaten, attack, invade and conquer the northern part of Africa. It is God's will.
North Africa? Aren't all of the North African nations Islamic already (and since the 9th century)? How old is this information?

[Argos]

Does he speak English? 8-[

German, Italian, French, English and Spanish.

A pope should speak Portuguese. There are more Portuguese speakers than German and French combined. Some 20% of his flock speaks Portuguese.

[Argos]

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif

That was superb, Candy. :D

[the_shaggy_one]

Does he speak English? 8-[

German, Italian, French, English and Spanish.

A pope should speak Portuguese. There are more Portuguese speakers than German and French combined. Some 20% of his flock speaks Portuguese.

The new pope actually speaks 10 languages, including Portugese, according to commentary I heard on CNN after his election. I'll try and find a link somewhere.

[TriangleMan]

Language ignorance here - If you know Spanish or Italian can you have a basic understanding of Portugese or are the languages too dissimilar?

[Argos]

Language ignorance here - If you know Spanish or Italian can you have a basic understanding of Portugese or are the languages too dissimilar?

I (Portuguese speaker) can understand Spanish and Italian perfectly. Not sure if the reciprocal is true.

[Candy]

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/figuren/a060.gif

That was superb, Candy. :D
Everytime I see this smilie, I can visualize the little guy speaking in Latin.

[hhEb09'1]

You didn't list Bergoglio, but that's my guess (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=447110&#447110). Your Paddypower link shows him at 20-1 odds.And he placed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050923/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_cardinal_s_diary)!

That quoted link is now this BAUT post (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=384052&highlight=bergoglio#post384052)

[Candy]

And he placed (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050923/ap_on_re_eu/vatican_cardinal_s_diary)!

That quoted link is now this BAUT post (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=384052&highlight=bergoglio#post384052)
Brunelli says he couldn't identify the author because of the vow of secrecy each cardinal took before entering the conclave. Punishment for violating the vow is excommunication.
http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/d070.gif

Why tell secrets now?

Seems like a violation.

BTW-Nice job, hhEb09'1!

[hhEb09'1]

Why tell secrets now? Politics