The Secret Societies Debunking thread

[collegeguy]

I have agreed with some members in other forum to start a thread to debunk the claims some people are making related to secret societies (Skull and Bones, Illuminati, Bohemian Grove, Knight Templar, Freemasonry, etc). The reason is this: I have been requested to explain why I don't believe in it. They say they want to show me that I am wrong, but have promised to be open-minded to my arguments, (not that I trust them, but oh well). I would really appreciate if you could post any links that debunk or show info against these conspiracies. I am going to post also some links:

http://www.greatseal.com/mottoes/coeptis.html

http://www.skepdic.com/illuminati.html

[collegeguy]

A link with some reasonable points about "skull and bones", not decisive evidence but it is okay:

http://www.rotten.com/library/conspiracy/skull-and-bones/

[collegeguy]

Whoa, it looks like this thread was a bad idea.

[Archer17]

You might've been better off posting this in BABBling collegeguy. I'm not up on all that 'secret society' stuff but I think you're on the right track researching some skeptic sites. Just remember .. the burden of proof is on them, not you.

Good luck.

[A.DIM]

I agree; this topic is more appropriate in ATM or BABBling.

Collegeguy, secret societies and conspiracy are irrefutable facts of History.
My questions would be more aimed at what particular purpose they might('ve) serve(d) and how well whichever claims made about them hold up to scrutiny.

And to be objective, I think, it is necessary that you not limit yourself to "skeptical" sites in your quest to debunk secret socieites....


Francis Bacon Secret Societies (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/b/bacon_francis.html).
I enjoyed studying Bacon in school and was very keen on his "secret society."

History and Prupose of the Freemasons and other Secret Societies (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masons.htm).
Aside from the "lucifer" woo, I find this to be an interesting perspective with good references for further research.

Triad Society (http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/T/TriadSoc.html).
I think there's a "Triad" secret society in Japanese history as well?

Indian Secret Societies (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/history/secretsoc.htm).
I never knew....


Any help? :)

[collegeguy]

I agree; this topic is more appropriate in ATM or BABBling.

Collegeguy, secret societies and conspiracy are irrefutable facts of History.
My questions would be more aimed at what particular purpose they might('ve) serve(d) and how well whichever claims made about them hold up to scrutiny.

And to be objective, I think, it is necessary that you not limit yourself to "skeptical" sites in your quest to debunk secret socieites....


Francis Bacon Secret Societies (http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/b/bacon_francis.html).

I enjoyed studying Bacon in school and was very keen on his "secret society."

History and Prupose of the Freemasons and other Secret Societies (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masons.htm).
Aside from the "lucifer" woo, I find this to be an interesting perspective with good references for further research.

Triad Society (http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/T/TriadSoc.html).
I think there's a "Triad" secret society in Japanese history as well?

Indian Secret Societies (http://www.accessgenealogy.com/native/tribes/history/secretsoc.htm).
I never knew....


Any help? :)

Thanks for the links. I am checking both: sites that support and debunk certain secret societies. The reason why you saw me doing research specially in "skeptical" sites is that I am trying to prove some people in other forum that there are no conspirators controlling our government and trying to bring about a new world order. Thanks for the links, the freemasons one is evidently biased, but I will still compare with others. Thanks anyway.

[collegeguy]

Anybody has got any links that debunk the conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assasinations? I could really use those links.

[Kesh]

Triad Society (http://reference.allrefer.com/encyclopedia/T/TriadSoc.html).
I think there's a "Triad" secret society in Japanese history as well?

The Triads are the Chinese equivalent of the Mafia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triad). Basically, organized groups of thieves, extortionists and murderers. They were originally secret societies attempting to overthrow the government of the time, but have devolved into little more than organized crime.

[Kesh]

Anybody has got any links that debunk the conspiracy theories of the Kennedy assasinations? I could really use those links.

Not links, but this is a good summary of the official version (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennedy_assassination).

[A.DIM]

Although I'm no creationist, I find it interesting that they, too, make claims about secret societies, occultism, "new world orders" and such.

This article on Masonic Origins (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masonic.htm) from biblebelievers.org shows a simple diagram that traces occultism, or secret societies, to the pantheism of mesopotamia and neighboring regions.

Now, I can't help but think all this, as much else, Religion itself included, points to the sumerian anunnaki - "those from heaven to earth came" - as being behind all this secret society stuff and a controlling one world government. :wink:

[Gillianren]

I recently found an excellent lone gunman site. disproves the "pristine" quality people say the bullet had, shows the actual trajectory of the "magic" bullet--everything. also worth reading is the link to the 100 factual errors in JFK.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/home.htm

[Kesh]

Now, I can't help but think all this, as much else, Religion itself included, points to the sumerian anunnaki - "those from heaven to earth came" - as being behind all this secret society stuff and a controlling one world government. :wink:

Let's not get into that again! You've already had one thread! ;)

[Maksutov]

Now, I can't help but think all this, as much else, Religion itself included, points to the sumerian anunnaki - "those from heaven to earth came" - as being behind all this secret society stuff and a controlling one world government. :wink:

Let's not get into that again! You've already had one thread! ;)
Right. I get the impression A.DIM has a macro for his keyboard that, when any key is struck, inserts the term "Anunnaki" somewhere in the typing.

BTW, why is when I read that term I think of the Alan Sherman song Sarah Jackman, which was sung to the tune of Frère Jacques. I guess the "older" version would go something like this:

Anunnaki, Anunnaki,
How's by you?
How's by you?
How's your brother Yahweh?
And your sister Gaia?
She's nice too.
She's nice too.

(For a "round", second person starts singing first line when first person reaches "How's by you?", third person starts singing first line when first person reaches "How's your brother Yahweh?", fourth person starts singing first line when first person reaches "She's nice too." and so on until everyone runs out of breath.)

[A.DIM]

Hey, I know what you mean. I think it's a conspiracy or some "secret society's" attempt to expose me as a "woowoo." :D

And cute jingle; I like the mix of Sumerian, Hebrew, and Greek deities... oh so fitting. :wink:

Seriously though: Yes, I often bring up "those from heaven to earth came," but only because I continuously come across items, such as this topic, that point to mesopotamia as the place of origin or "genesis."
And what did the sumerians say? It was the Anunnaki.

[Fram]

It looks more like you come across a topic, then you look for a link with mesopotamia, and then of course you link that again to the annunaki. Of course, every time you trace things back to the beginnings of civilization and/or writing, mesopotamia is one of the regions that will appear. So it isn't to hard to plug your ideas (to put it mildly) on a regular basis.

[A.DIM]

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.

[Archer17]

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.And your point?

[Fram]

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.
Not all scholars agree on those 'firsts', though, as e.g. Egypt has a lot of claims to make as well, and Israel (first city?), and probably other regions and countries as well.

[a7304757]

Oh?

Well, the fact of the matter is that of the tens of thousands of cuneiform tablets unearthed in mesopotamia, only a few thousand have actually been translated. Granted, that's been enough for scholars to proclaim that it was in sumer where we find most of the "firsts" that comprise advanced civilization. Further understanding of the sumerians - who they were, where they came from, who their "anunnaki" were, etc. - is utterly fascinating to me. So many of their influences remain extant in today's world, whether in astronomy, religion, music, art, literature or what have you, and IMHO, you must know where you've been to know where you're going.

Adim,
http://www.zeitreiseheldenberg.at/
(klick through Kreisgräben popups)
is a 2005 main stream exhibition which gives some clues to pre sumerian origins which could be interesting to you
highlights are are large numbers of wooden circles (Kreisgräben, stonehenges) along the Donube river
erected acc. to present dating practises around 4800–4500 BC,
while some of the gates are oriented crosslike i.g. four gates of the the sun: longest, shortes and equal day/night
another circle has the gates according to stars: descent of antares, ascent of deneb, descent of rigel of orion
and ascent of pleiades( as has been investigated sofar by astronomers)
One can see from the pottery ware at the site it is similar to later sumerian. It is striking that baking ovens for grains like spelt were uncovered there, which proves that bread was imported to mid east. Sofar it was believed that the oldest bread baking ovens known were found in cappadocia (turkey) from where they were imported into sumeria. It is one more hint that pre sumerians entered from central europe.

[Disinfo Agent]

Hey, a7 is back! It's been a while... :D

[collegeguy]

Does anybody know of any info I could find to study about the Rothschild and the Rockefeller? I need to know some info to disprove their plans of New World Order. People believe international bankers like them, have plans to bring about a New World Order. Also any info related to the Federal Reserve. They claim it is privately owned and their stockholders create debt out of nothing to make money. Some even claim the Federal Reserve even runs the US, meaning the international bankers do.

More importantly, I have to find a way to prove that this is not true:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/how.htm

[a7304757]

Hey, a7 is back! It's been a while... :D
thx for the welcome, but I am afraid nothing much new to say :oops:
Recalling the conversations we had years ago about a mesopotamian cylinder seal showing sun, moon and other unidentified objects I found that the socalled skydisk, Nebra disk of about 1600 BC
see picture at
http://www.neara.org/MiscReports/12-08a-03.htm
http://www.astro.uni-bonn.de/~dfischer/mirror/243.html
and many other links

is well documented now by various scholarly researchers ( even a BBC documentary was made) and resembles those early mesopotamian seals, so to assume a common source. It is regarded by some as a bible of early astronomy and seems to be the outcome of observations gathered from hundreds of wooden or stone circles unearthed sofar.

collegeguy, I know of a forum
where you can get different views on the topics you requested.
I think its in the General Chatter section
http://www.ickedownload.com/Forum/

[Gillianren]

for reasons on which I'm not entirely clear, the Kennedy site I gave you earlier also features a link to a site debunking some National Reserve woo-woo. (I think it's debunking the belief that they killed Kennedy, but only because I'm relatively sure that someone, somewhere, believes that anyone you can name killed Kennedy.)

[Disinfo Agent]

There were two threads about the Nebra sky disk, a7304757. See here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10340&highlight=star+chart).

[a7304757]

There were two threads about the Nebra sky disk, a7304757. See here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=10340&highlight=star+chart).

Thx again for the links, gazing at the Nebra sky disk of say 1600 to 700 BC one could assume an influence of even older mesopotamian astronomy. But since elements of the picture have been discovered recently at say 4600 BC in the area, it could be possible that mesopotamian astronomy was influenced by this.
I found this when reading
http://www.zeitreiseheldenberg.at/
quote:
The positioning of the gate areas has provided the basis for theories that have aimed to demonstrate that the circular ditch systems were places of astronomical observation or temples to the sun. One striking feature of systems with two entrances is their consistent alignment along an east-west axis. Although any orientation based on the heavens would be susceptible to considerable variation, an observed tendency towards positioning in certain directions may be indicative that these early rural cultures observed a sun calendar. In many cases, orientation followed not only the main heavenly axes, but also the sunrise and sunset points at the summer and winter solstices and certain other times of the year. In other instances, positioning may follow astronomical lines (i.e. linked to star patterns such as the vivid star cluster of the Pleiades or particularly bright stars in the constellation of Orion).
End of quote.

It also states that these systems were centers of conspiracies, perhaps dark places, this is indicated by the many sacrifical activities that have been unearthed within the ditches.

[Morrolan]

Does anybody know of any info I could find to study about the Rothschild and the Rockefeller? I need to know some info to disprove their plans of New World Order. People believe international bankers like them, have plans to bring about a New World Order. Also any info related to the Federal Reserve. They claim it is privately owned and their stockholders create debt out of nothing to make money. Some even claim the Federal Reserve even runs the US, meaning the international bankers do.

More importantly, I have to find a way to prove that this is not true:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/how.htm

well, as a international banker with 25 years of experience, all i can say is that that claim is highly unlikely, if only for the totally incompetent way in which most banks are and have been managed... bankers only look mystical to some because the commodity they (mis)manage is (other people's) money, but in all reality they're nothing more mystical or exciting than a chartered accountant. 8-[

[pteranodon]

History and Prupose of the Freemasons and other Secret Societies (http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/masons.htm).
Aside from the "lucifer" woo, I find this to be an interesting perspective with good references for further research.

#-o

Nonsense! My fiancé is a freemason and he is not into anything but their own rituals and local community help. I can assure you they do not have to worship Satan or Babylon or anything said to be demonic to join Freemasonry. The only religious belief required is to believe in God, not the christian God, but with a more neutral idea.

[collegeguy]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

[Fram]

Censoring the internet happens now in a number of countries (China, some arab countries, I presume North Korea, ...), and the internet gets watched (for terrorist activities, child porn, ...) routinely in most countries. Shutting down the internet inside a country can be done, normally, but I don't think it would be very easy in the USA. And it would disrupt the economy on a very large scale.

[Outcast]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

[Fram]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

He didn't say that they were woo-woo's because they made that claim, just that there are woowoo's (let's say, moon hoax believers, or the royal family are reptiles believers, or Zeta-followers) who also make such a claim. Huge difference, and jeez yourself [-(

[collegeguy]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

Fram is right. I didn't say they were woowoos because of that, but because of their illuminati beliefs, which I am trying to debunk.

[Heid the Ba']

Does anybody know of any info I could find to study about the Rothschild and the Rockefeller? I need to know some info to disprove their plans of New World Order. People believe international bankers like them, have plans to bring about a New World Order. Also any info related to the Federal Reserve. They claim it is privately owned and their stockholders create debt out of nothing to make money. Some even claim the Federal Reserve even runs the US, meaning the international bankers do.

More importantly, I have to find a way to prove that this is not true:

http://www.themoneymasters.com/how.htm

The site states:

The development of fractional reserve banking practices in the 17th century brought to a cunning sophistication the secret techniques initially used by goldsmiths fraudulently to accumulate wealth.

This is buying the use of depositors money at x% and lending it at x+2%, and paying your bills etc on the 2%. The cunning sophisticated technique employed by your local shopkeeper. I believe it is a form of capitalism.

With the formation of the privately-owned Bank of England in 1694, the yoke of economic slavery to a privately-owned "central" bank

Although initially privately owned it was nationalised in 1946, which would suggest it wasn't really enforcing its will on the politicians.

Quoting Carroll Quigley, a historian and sociologist "The apex of the system was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations"

The BIS (www.bis.org) was set up to control reparation payments after the Great War. It opened up its archives to the public in 1998. Either a great double bluff, or they aren't hiding anything. No part of this statement is true. I am also curious when this statement was made, Quigley died in 1977.

That yoke inevitably grows heavier with ever-compounding interest, and totals over $20 trillion of debt owed by the American people today ($80,000 per American) ultimately to these bankers

There is no link shown between debts to a limited company, and a central bank. I am deeply in debt to the Royal Bank of Scotland and RBS Group in various forms. RBS is not in debt to the Bank of England, therefore there is no conspiracy. Increasing debt is generally covered by increasing assets and increasing income, so does not grow heavier.

Ask for any link, any evidence whatsoever that this conspiracy exists, or even evidence that they understand how banking works, and I'll happily go through it.

[collegeguy]

Thanks for offering to help :wink: One of these link may be alittle big, but I would really be thankful if you could at least give some pointers in each:

http://www.nader.org/interest/021500.html

specially this one:

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/reserve.htm

[collegeguy]

Also check this:

Q: Who owns the stock of the Federal Reserve Banks?

A: The dynastic families of the ruling World Order, internationalists who are loyal to no race, religion, or nation. They are families such as the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, the Schiffs, the Rockefellers, the Harrimans, the Morgans and others known as the elite, or "the big rich".

Is there a website where I can check who "owns" the banks that own the federal stock?

[Gillianren]

you know, it's funny that the Rothschilds are on that list of people not loyal to anything but themselves (and, presumably, accumulating as much money as possible), since they're also used as proof of a worldwide Jewish conspiracy.

(side note: the Baron Rothschild of the 1860s said the North would win the Civil War because it had "the largest purse.")

[Outcast]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

Fram is right. I didn't say they were woowoos because of that, but because of their illuminati beliefs, which I am trying to debunk.

funny, i knew you would say that. my point was that if you could not understand a simple fact like the technical possibility of censoring the internet how on earth are you expecting to "debunk" the complexity of conspiracy theories. most of which are based on bits and pieces of information and also theories that go millenia into the past.
undestanding the roots of some of these ideas either to defend or debunk them implies a deep knowlledge on many fields, specialy of history. but here you are, a priori, casting woowoo accusations and claiming you want to "debunk" conspiracy theories.
oh well, good luck.

[Outcast]

A revolutionary American creation, the Great Seal is composed of
natural elements (eagle, olive branch, stars, cloud, light rays, eye)
and universal symbols (pyramid, arrows, shield).

http://www.greatseal.com/symbols/index.html

humm, how naive. most if not all of the symbols employed in those seals are masonic or have masonic connotations. most notably, the all seeing eye, the pyramid, the six pointed star, the thirteen stars and the other groups of thirteen. the number thirteen is very important in freemasonry for some obvious reasons (and others less obvious).

The nine signatories [of the American declaration of independence] who can now be established as proven Freemasons, and the ten who were possibly so, included such influential figures as Washington, Franklin and, of course, the president of the Congress, John Hancock. The army, moreover, remained almost entirely in Freemasonic hands...As we shall see, it is in the Constitution that the influence of Freemasonry is most discernible.

At last, on 25 May 1787, the Constitutional Convention opened in Philadelphia and commenced its efforts to devise the machinery of government for the new nation. The first voice to make itself heard in any significantly influential way was a characteristically Freemasonic one, that of Edmund Randolph.. Randolph...a member of a Williamsburg lodge, had become Washington's aide-de-camp. Subsequently he was to become Attorney-General, then governor of Virginia and Grand Master of Virginia's Grand Lodge. During Washington's presidency, he was to serve as the first Attorney-General of the United States, then the first Secretary of State.

There were ultimately five dominant and guiding spirits behind the Constitution - Washington, Franklin, Randolph, Jefferson and John Adams. Of these, the first three were active Freemasons, but men who took their Freemasonry extremely seriously - men who subscribed fervently to its ideals, whose entire orientation had been shaped and conditioned by it. And Adam's position, though he himself is not known to have been a Freemason was virtually identical to theirs. When he became president, moreover, he appointed a prominent Freemason, John Marshall, as first Chief Justice of the Supreme Court. - The Temple & The Lodge

[Fram]

I am embarrased to say it, but my knowledge of how the internet runs is little. Could someone tell me if it is possible for the government to shut down or censor the internet? Some woo-woos say the government will do this and I want to know to what extent that can be done.

if dont even know that such a thing is actually technicaly possible to do howcome you're accusing others of being woowoos just for making such claim. jeez... #-o

Fram is right. I didn't say they were woowoos because of that, but because of their illuminati beliefs, which I am trying to debunk.

funny, i knew you would say that. my point was that if you could not understand a simple fact like the technical possibility of censoring the internet how on earth are you expecting to "debunk" the complexity of conspiracy theories. most of which are based on bits and pieces of information and also theories that go millenia into the past.
undestanding the roots of some of these ideas either to defend or debunk them implies a deep knowlledge on many fields, specialy of history. but here you are, a priori, casting woowoo accusations and claiming you want to "debunk" conspiracy theories.
oh well, good luck.
There's a difference between not knowing something (yet), and not understanding something.

[TriangleMan]

Also check this:
Q: Who owns the stock of the Federal Reserve Banks?

Here is the website for the US Federal Reserve Bank (http://www.federalreserve.gov). It would be a good place to start to learn about banking regulation in the US.

Bermuda's banking regulator, the Bermuda Monetary Authority (http://www.bma.bm) was founded in 1969. I guess the Illuminati were late in arriving here. :lol:

[Heid the Ba']

Also check this:

Q: Who owns the stock of the Federal Reserve Banks?

A: The dynastic families of the ruling World Order, internationalists who are loyal to no race, religion, or nation. They are families such as the Rothschilds, the Warburgs, the Schiffs, the Rockefellers, the Harrimans, the Morgans and others known as the elite, or "the big rich".

Is there a website where I can check who "owns" the banks that own the federal stock?

The term privately owned in these websites is deliberately misleading. It doesn't mean owned by a person or family, it means owned by people and organisations in the private sector. I doubt there is a website giving the information on all of them. As an example, simply because it is the one I know best, check the RBS (www.rbs.com)website (RBS is the fifth largest bank in the world by capitalisation, top 10 by any measurement), it gives breakdowns of who owns the shares by region, and by type. Anyone with a holding larger than (I think) 5% has to be named in the annual report, I can't find those on the website. IIRC no individual owns that much in RBS, only other financial institutions.

There are a number of major problems with the websites you linked to:

1. US banks aren't big by world standards
2. The Fed is essentially government owned
3. Banks don't need to be corrupt to make money, they simply have to be well run.
4. some banks make cripplingly bad business decisions; Barings, most japanese banks, Natwest and others. As Morrolan pointed out, they can't run themselves, nevermind the world.

RBS is run by a guy called Fred Goodwin, he does want to take over the world but is doing it legally and obviously by tried and tested business methods. RBS shareholders (including me and Mrs B) are not ultra-rich conspirators but simple investors.

Of course this just means the RBS accounts are fakes and I'm in on the conspiracy. :roll:

[Gillianren]

humm, how naive. most if not all of the symbols employed in those seals are masonic or have masonic connotations. most notably, the all seeing eye, the pyramid, the six pointed star, the thirteen stars and the other groups of thirteen. the number thirteen is very important in freemasonry for some obvious reasons (and others less obvious).

gosh, and here I've spent the last 20-plus years thinking all those 13s represented the 13 original colonies . . . .

[collegeguy]

Check this out:

Free from the possibility, more and more each day, that any of the world’s 191 other sovereign nations will ever hinder the United States’ plans for humanitarian based global conquest.

The United States is in high gear, working to prevent the lesser cultures of the world from amassing power.
Massive U.S. spending on the war on terrorism pushed global military expenditure above $1 trillion in 2004, the sixth successive year the total has risen, a leading research institute said on Tuesday.

World military expenditure rose 5 percent to $1.04 trillion, still 6 percent below a Cold War peak in 1987-88, but up sharply since 1998, the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute (SIPRI) said in its latest yearbook.
In recent news, the Sino Nippon clashes and the fall of the EU again simply underscore why the duty of all high level social engineering falls to the capable shoulders of the United States.

To the rest of the world, there is no need to fear this, for it is inevitable.
The person becomes the family
The family becomes the village
The village becomes the nation
The nation becomes the world, and the U.S. will show you the way.

With an ever expanding population placing increased demand on global resources (with the exceptions of SUV’s, which are exempt), insurgency has become a luxury that we, as a species, can no longer afford.
"World military spending...is again approaching its level at the height of the Cold War," the think tank said. "
"The major determinant of the world trend in military expenditure is the change in the United States."

U.S. military spending accounted for nearly half the global figure, rising 12 percent last year to $455 billion, the Swedish government-funded institute said.
That was more than the combined total of the 32 next most powerful nations, SIPRI said. The figure was set to rise still further to $502 billion in 2010.

U.S. spending "has increased rapidly during the period 2002-2004 as a result of massive budgetary allocations for the 'global war on terrorism', primarily for military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq," SIPRI said.

By February 2005 the total amount of extra spending requested for the 'global war on terrorism' since Sept. 11 2001 had reached $346 billion, the institute said.
"While U.S. military spending is still lower than during the Cold War in terms of its share of GDP, the sustainability of the current levels is being increasingly questioned," SIPRI said.

U.S. military spending increased to 3.9 percent of gross domestic product (GDP) last year from 3.0 percent in 1999, but remained well below its Cold War peak of more than 6 percent.

The top five countries by military spending -- the United States, Britain, France, Japan and China -- spent nearly two-thirds of the world total last year, according to the institute whose database contains officially reported military spending for 159 countries.

Growth in China's military spending slowed to 7 percent -- $35 billion -- while Russia's 2004 national defense budget increased almost 5 percent to $19 billion, SIPRI said.

In terms of the impact created by the spending gap, SIPRI believes that the large technology advantage enjoyed by the U.S. today will continue to widen at an increasing pace, and that by 2025, will likely result in the U.S. possessing the only cash of effective weapons found anywhere in the world.

Is there anyone left who doesn't see this as a better, more humanitarian path for civilization ?

Conversely, based on data for the past five years, Russia has overtaken the United States as the world's leading supplier of low and mid grade conventional weapons.
Russia, the United States, Britain, France and Germany accounted for 81 percent of all conventional weapons delivered in 2000-2004.
China and India were the two main recipients of conventional arms in 2004, the institute said.

Oh yes, the fact that the US is spending a whole lot of money in the war on terror means that they want to conquer the whole world. :roll:

[TriangleMan]

How dare that US military actually use its budget to research and develop better weaponry! They should be continuing in the time-honoured tradition of training recruits in how to use bayonets and muskets. :P

Yep, military spends money on weapon research - clear proof of the existance of Illuminati Overlords. :roll:

[philojones]

On a small scale, my uncle was a 32nd degree Mason and he knew 5 years in advance the route of a new highway through town (before it was officially decided). So he simply went and bought up the choice land at discount prices along with other members of the order. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina

[philojones]

1.) If congress has the power to coin money and the issue thereof, just who the hell do we owe the national debt to? If we owe it to ourselves as some would have us believe, then why are we charging ourselves interest?

2.) Where the hell is all the silver that was pulled out of circulation in the past 50 years for cheaper coin materials?

[TriangleMan]

1.) If congress has the power to coin money and the issue thereof, just who the hell do we owe the national debt to? If we owe it to ourselves as some would have us believe, then why are we charging ourselves interest?
The majority of debt owed by a developed nation such as the US is to the holders of government issued bonds. The US is one of the largest producers of government bonds, their AAA rating makes them safe investments. Even other governments invest in US bonds! Here is a website (http://www.publicdebt.treas.gov/opd/opd.htm) which has a lot of detail on the debt.

Governments can't just print money at will to cover their expenses, it will lead to hyperinflation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperinflation) and a major devaluation of the currency.

[XNBLVR1]

2.) Where the hell is all the silver that was pulled out of circulation in the past 50 years for cheaper coin materials?

I bet the US Government is using all that silver to pay off the Zetans for their excellent cover-up of Planet X. :o
I mean it probably costs a lot of money to keep that "Planet" dancing and swirling all over the solar system...

[collegeguy]

Philojones,I have a question for you. Do you believe in a secret evil power elite like the illuminati or only that greedy businessmen run America and the world? I ask you this because I have noticed there are these two groups who believe in cabals.

[philojones]

Philojones,I have a question for you. Do you believe in a secret evil power elite like the illuminati or only that greedy businessmen run America and the world? I ask you this because I have noticed there are these two groups who believe in cabals.

The personages that I've dealt with in this area span a gap from atheistic money hungry to so-called Christian money hungry to crystal skull occultic money hungry. It depends on who you are as to whether or not these powers are evil. For example: If you want a Pan American Union with no borders and combined Social Security systems from Canuckland to Tierra Del Fuego, then it's not so very evil. I have a feeling that Central and South Americans are in love with the idea. They have everything to gain and we have everything to lose. Europe has had some countries vote to not join the European Union. Guess what? You won't get to vote on any of that here. It will go through congress and barely pass with a lot of Replicrat posturing.

There's definitely a lot of disinfo and misinfo out there. I read a doomsday article by Al Martin of almartinraw.com that claims Julian Robertson (hedgefund king known as "Never Wrong Robertson") said that he's moving to New Zealand because of the coming global economy catastrophe of biblical proportions. I viewed the CNBC video and all Robertson said was that he had been spending time in New Zealand and that he feels many people could lose their homes due to the speculative housing bubbles in certain areas of the country. Lots of money to be made by fearmongering. Lies are lies. However, facts are facts. A Someone obviously wants unchecked illegal immigration. It's not the average American in Cal where hospitals are going broke and schools went from near 1st to 45th and dropping and are having trouble keeping the doors open because there isn't enough money. "But they take jobs we won't & do it for cheaper." The net cost to the taxpayer is in the billions. There is NO savings anywhere. THEY ALL GET FREE HEALTHCARE! It's all a lie. So ask yourself, why? WHY!? Evidence of self serving cabals is everywhere. Don't take my word or anyone else's. Look around, do your own research and think for yourself.

[Gillianren]

um . . . wow.

about the health care thing: not paying for health care is, long term, a bigger drain on any economy, in that epidemics tend to start in poor communities and spread. trust me, you're much happier having even illegal immigrants being treated for virulent diseases.

[TriangleMan]

um . . . this took a decidedly odd turn . . . and getting political so I'm outta here.

[collegeguy]

I am sorry, guys. I didn't mean for this thread to get political :(

[philojones]

I am not an effective communicator except to the other wormhole thinkers that work for me. I'll just shut up.

[Herodotus]

. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina



As far as the statue to Albert Pike goes, it was put up by the Freemasons, not by the government as a tribute to some secret ruler of the country, which is what the implication is. Information on it can be found here:
http://www.kittytours.org/thatman2/search.asp?subject=93
It didn't take very long to find that information either.
And losers do get statues in the enemy land, a trip to the Stanislaus County Courthouse would show a statue to the Native-American leader Estanislaus whom the county is named after and fought against the Spanish and Mexico armies in this area.

[Floyd_the_astronomer]

. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina



As far as the statue to Albert Pike goes, it was put up by the Freemasons, not by the government as a tribute to some secret ruler of the country, which is what the implication is. Information on it can be found here:
http://www.kittytours.org/thatman2/search.asp?subject=93
It didn't take very long to find that information either.
And losers do get statues in the enemy land, a trip to the Stanislaus County Courthouse would show a statue to the Native-American leader Estanislaus whom the county is named after and fought against the Spanish and Mexico armies in this area.

Politcally incorrect people don't get national statues. The pol. inc. state statues are being torn down. I don't see Robt. E Lees being forced upon us by the sons of the Confederacy. Washington liked Pike and supported the statue or it wouldn't be there. You can't fart in that town without them demanding to smell it. If you've worked there, then you know.... Why they like Pike? I dunno for sure but congress has it's share of Masons. Maybe it's as simple as the wisdom of statesman Iggy Pop In butt town you gotta get down

[Gillianren]

I'm cruising that site, and there's a statue to the "discoverer" of homeopathy in Washington, too. and Alexander Pushkin. and Taras Shevchenko, who I'd never even heard of until I read this site. St. Jerome the priest.

there's a plaque commemorating poor Mary Surratt, too. I'm not sure why she doesn't count as a Confederate, given that she was executed for allegedly participating in the conspiracy that assassinated Lincoln. still, maybe it's because she wasn't a soldier--and wasn't necessarily guilty.

it is true that statues in Washington, DC, are more closely controlled than in other places. still, the fact that there's a statue of a hippo doesn't mean the government is run by aquatic African mammals, either.

[Kesh]

I am not an effective communicator except to the other wormhole thinkers that work for me. I'll just shut up.

It's always easier when you can just make statements without having to prove them. "Preaching to the choir," so to say.

I do think for myself, philo. You've provided nothing of substance to back up the existence of these "cabals."

[Disinfo Agent]

It depends on who you are as to whether or not these powers are evil. For example: If you want a Pan American Union with no borders and combined Social Security systems from Canuckland to Tierra Del Fuego, then it's not so very evil. I have a feeling that Central and South Americans are in love with the idea. They have everything to gain and we have everything to lose. Europe has had some countries vote to not join the European Union. Guess what? You won't get to vote on any of that here. It will go through congress and barely pass with a lot of Replicrat posturing.
I'm not sure what you're talking about, exactly, but if you're concerned about the future policies of your country, isn't the answer to consider carefully who you vote for?

[Floyd_the_astronomer]

On a small scale, my uncle was a 32nd degree Mason and he knew 5 years in advance the route of a new highway through town (before it was officially decided). So he simply went and bought up the choice land at discount prices along with other members of the order. On a larger scale, washout general and war criminal Albert Pike is the only confederate with a statue in Wash D.C. He was the head of freemasonry in the U.S. (publicly, only in the South) and wrote "Morals & Dogma", the bible of the initiates. He didn't get the statue for war prowess....losers never get statues on the terra firma of the victor. It's obvious that freemasonry held sway over the greater good of the nation - Pike never went to prison after a battlefield debacle at Pea Ridge, AR., "The Indians, delighted in their capture of the "wagon guns" commence to scalp and mutilate the dead bodies of Union soldiers." (Note: Some publications whitewash Pike's actions http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Pike to scalping the dead.) This was a big deal at the time. Others went to prison for far less offenses. Andrew Johnson pardoned Pike. That's at least a national conspiracy with international overtones (Pike was well connected in Britain). Skepticism is good but don't put your head too far in the naivety guillotine.

Here is some more thought provoking evidence:

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not
behind the scenes." --Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli of England, in 1844

"Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it." - Woodrow Wilson

This requires you to do some homework:
Tatyana Koryagina


The Tatyana quote looks like bunk to me. I want to see evidence that this really came from Pravda. Rense doesn't let the facts interfere with him.

The market will crash this fall Philo! I saw it in an issue of Baron's that's been confiscated by the authorities. You should buy gold....and I just so happen to sell it.

http://www.rense.com/general14/news.htm

[gopher65]

I understand that certain hospitals in the US have gone bankrupt because of a 'flood' of illegal aliens into their emergency rooms (that's what you get for having private healthcare by the way. Private Health care costs the economy twice as much, leaves the poor without proper care, and leaves your critical care areas open to market forces [-X ).

However, as was already stated, if you didn't treat that bad case of TB that some Mexican immigrant (legal or otherwise) brought into the country, you could potentially lose 10's of thousands, or even millions to an epidemic.

TB may not be the best example, but there are highly infectious diseases that would cause massive economic damage if left unchecked.

[Dan The Mediocre]

1.) If congress has the power to coin money and the issue thereof, just who the hell do we owe the national debt to? If we owe it to ourselves as some would have us believe, then why are we charging ourselves interest?

2.) Where the hell is all the silver that was pulled out of circulation in the past 50 years for cheaper coin materials?

1) Currency is based ultimatly on gold. If we print more currency but keep the same amount of gold, our currency loses value. Germany tried this after WWI, and it ruined their economy because the currency became virtually worthless. I'm not even sure that it was worth the paper it was printed on.

And the US government owes private institutions money, as well as certain funds like Social Security. If we default on our loans, it hurts the entire world economy, as well as making the US less likely to be given loans in the future. And we can't default on Social Security unless we eliminate it.

2) Silver was pulled from circulation because it became worth more than the coins themselve. A 10 cent coin takes 30 cents of silver? Then you gain 20 cents simply by melting the silver.

[Morrolan]

1) Currency is based ultimatly on gold. If we print more currency but keep the same amount of gold, our currency loses value. Germany tried this after WWI, and it ruined their economy because the currency became virtually worthless. I'm not even sure that it was worth the paper it was printed on.

not exactly true since. not since the collapse of Bretton-Woods in 1971. there currently is no direct gold standard.

[teddyv]

1) Currency is based ultimatly on gold. If we print more currency but keep the same amount of gold, our currency loses value. Germany tried this after WWI, and it ruined their economy because the currency became virtually worthless. I'm not even sure that it was worth the paper it was printed on.

not exactly true since. not since the collapse of Bretton-Woods in 1971. there currently is no direct gold standard.

I would say not even close to true. The US alone has printed billions, if not over a trillion dollars, with no tangible backstop to it in the last few years to fight deflation.

[Dan The Mediocre]

1) Currency is based ultimatly on gold. If we print more currency but keep the same amount of gold, our currency loses value. Germany tried this after WWI, and it ruined their economy because the currency became virtually worthless. I'm not even sure that it was worth the paper it was printed on.

not exactly true since. not since the collapse of Bretton-Woods in 1971. there currently is no direct gold standard.

I would say not even close to true. The US alone has printed billions, if not over a trillion dollars, with no tangible backstop to it in the last few years to fight deflation.

Except that the above scenario would actually cause a massive devaluation of the Dollar. On top of that, 95% of currency is used to replace old currency. (http://www.moneyfactory.com/document.cfm/18/106). So even then, the amount of new currency won't reach trillions.

On top of that, the amount of US currency in circulation is held at $380 billion (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/United-States-dollar) by the IMF.[/url]

[Morrolan]

1) Currency is based ultimatly on gold. If we print more currency but keep the same amount of gold, our currency loses value. Germany tried this after WWI, and it ruined their economy because the currency became virtually worthless. I'm not even sure that it was worth the paper it was printed on.

not exactly true since. not since the collapse of Bretton-Woods in 1971. there currently is no direct gold standard.

I would say not even close to true. The US alone has printed billions, if not over a trillion dollars, with no tangible backstop to it in the last few years to fight deflation.

Except that the above scenario would actually cause a massive devaluation of the Dollar. On top of that, 95% of currency is used to replace old currency. (http://www.moneyfactory.com/document.cfm/18/106). So even then, the amount of new currency won't reach trillions.

On top of that, the amount of US currency in circulation is held at $380 billion (http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/United-States-dollar) by the IMF.

which still isn't proof of a gold standard. the only thing that proves is that the USD has become an internationally accepted standard all by itself since it is the international trading and investing currency. it has become a backstop for other currencies even in some cases.

[Dan The Mediocre]

which still isn't proof of a gold standard. the only thing that proves is that the USD has become an internationally accepted standard all by itself since it is the international trading and investing currency. it has become a backstop for other currencies even in some cases.

I concede that it isn't a gold standard anymore. I looked it up, and you were correct.

[Morrolan]

which still isn't proof of a gold standard. the only thing that proves is that the USD has become an internationally accepted standard all by itself since it is the international trading and investing currency. it has become a backstop for other currencies even in some cases.

I concede that it isn't a gold standard anymore. I looked it up, and you were correct.

that's ok, as an international banker and Illuminatus i'm supposed to know these things... ;) :^o

[Heid the Ba']

Having read some of the websites I'm starting to think that the "secret knowledge" is knowing the difference between a debit and a credit.

[Floyd_the_astronomer]

Money printing is a conspiracy in it's own right. Fiat currency is backed by nothing other than confidence in said economy. Most of the world's currencies are considered fiat. It doesn't take a garbage collector to see the potential abuses. Inflation and deflation are much more severe under fiat systems.

[Kesh]

And how is that a conspiracy?

[Floyd_the_astronomer]

And how is that a conspiracy?

According to some guy named Mises, it's a conspiracy to overspend tax dollars among other things:

"Inflation is a policy of increasing the quantity of money in order to make it possible for the government to spend more than it collects in taxes or borrows from the public. It is first of all a way to avoid the necessity of explaining to the people why higher taxes are necessary. The government wants to spend more than the duly elected representatives of the nation are ready to permit it to collect in taxes. Out of nothing, the government creates money by fiat, and then spends it. The government's action does not add anything to the available supply of useful goods and services. It merely provides more money and thus brings about a tendency to make prices soar. Those groups of the population to whom the government gives some of this increased quantity of money are now in a position to buy more than they used to buy before. Their appearance on the market leaves a smaller share of the previously available commodities for those persons to whom the government did not give any of the increased money. Faced with higher prices, these people with no additional money are forced to restrict their purchases. Thus every inflationary action on the part of the government—and no other group or institution is able to resort to inflationary measures—results in a boon for some people and necessarily a disaster for the rest of the nation."

He has a lot more to say: http://www.mises.org/efandi/ch43.asp

I really don't know if it's true. Comments?

[Dan The Mediocre]

Considering that interest on loans to governments is often tied the current inflation rate, if that's how the government gets out of paying back their loans for the real value, they're doing a fairly bad job of it.

[Heid the Ba']

The guy is called Ludwig von Mises and he is one of the founders of one of the strands of the "Austrian School" of economic theory. This is not woowoo but it is definitely not mainstream. The definition of inflation which is quoted is fairly narrow and geared to his theory. The theory makes little sense with other definitions of inflation.

He died in the early 1970s and the inflation of the late 70s did a lot to weaken his writing. In broad terms he is the antithesis of Keynes.

I didn't read the site linked to so wouldn't like to comment in detail on the theory, but he wrote much of his work while living in Central Europe during and after the hyperinflation of the thirties and during postwar reconstruction.

I can't provide links but wikipedia searches for any of the above terms provide good background.

[Sleuter]

It's always easier when you can just make statements without having to prove them. "Preaching to the choir," so to say.

I do think for myself, philo. You've provided nothing of substance to back up the existence of these "cabals."

Philo may not have conclusive proof, but what can be conclusively proven? He has some circumstantial evidence that merits consideration. To hear you "skeptics" tell it, there is no such thing as cause and effect other than what you hear on the news. So in other words, you aren't really skeptics just the amen corner for the Associated Press. A real skeptic even evaluates objectively. So while you are demanding proof from Philo, why don't you prove that we are in Iraq due to weapons of mass destruction? You can't prove or disprove it.

Do I know whether or not secret societies are setting our course as a nation and maybe even the world? No. Is there evidence that certain forces are in play? Yes. Can I prove it? No. Is there evidence that such forces don't exist? You tell me.

[Wolverine]

Welcome to BAUT, Sleuter.

This thread was originally started on the Bad Astronomy Bulletin Board; after last year's forum merge, we now have a section dedicated to Conspiaracy Theories, where discussion of this topic would be better served.

Moved from Against the Mainstream.

[PhantomWolf]

So while you are demanding proof from Philo, why don't you prove that we are in Iraq due to weapons of mass destruction? You can't prove or disprove it.

Oh, I'm totally convinced that the US (not we cause we aren't involved :p)isn't in there due to WMD. It's all to do with GWB having a personal vendetta again Saddam cause he tried to blow up his Mummy and Daddy while they were visiting Kuwait, he just wanted an excuse to go after him and 9/11 was that excuse. It's obvious from the way he tried to shoehorn Iraq into 9/11 that he wanted Saddam from the outset. Now he's got Saddam, but he made such a mess of things he can't get out. Persoanlly I feel sorry for the families of all the people that ended up paying for GWB and Saddam's spat.

[Gillianren]

Tell me about it. (The boyfriend goes overseas any day now.)

[Wolverine]

Apologies for not having posted a caveat earlier, but please don't stray into politics here.

In terms of posting political content, I would contend it's acceptable in the Conspiracy Theories section of the forum to do so only if the focus is upon verifiable facts directly relevant to a conpiracy claim being discussed. Deviating from that into politically-fueled commentaries, rants, or engaging in forms of political advocacy isn't allowed under our ruleset.