Were the London Bombers tricked?

[John Kierein]

I heard somewhere on the radio that there is theory that the bombers were tricked. They may have thought they were setting timers, but that set off the bomb instead and it killed them. This is because they used backpacks or satchels instead of the suicide bomber tactic of strapping the bombs to their body. Also it is convenient for preventing them from being caught and disclosing who were their leaders.

What is thought about this theory?

[Bob]

I also heard that the 4 bombers did some seemingly odd things like pay for long term parking and buy round trip tickets in Leeds.

[tofu]

Probably best to wait for all the facts to come out. It's easy to jump to conclusions.

In places like Israel, suicide bombers strap the bombs to themselves because obviously anyone carrying a backpack would be stopped and searched. If you buy a one-way plane ticket these days, you attract suspicion. It seems that terrorists have figured this out and have started making all tickets round-trip.

[Enzp]

Can't speak to urban transit, but on airlines, round trip tickets can cost less than one way flights in some cases.

[Taks]

one way trips by different folks arriving at the same destination is an automatic red flag in routing software. it's almost a given that you'll be noticed.

taks

[farmerjumperdon]

It is most unfortunate that we have to live with the possibility of unpredictable violent acts on the general public. But it is amazing how the evolution of the tools to combat crime have made it more difficult to pull off and get away with such acts.

It occurs to me that with our advanced forensic sciences and information technology it is virtually impossible for anybody but an expert on these matters to live life nowadays without leaving a trail or to commit a crime without leaving evidence.

Now if we could just get to the same level on the prevention side of things.

[eugenek]

Now if we could just get to the same level on the prevention side of things.

I'm sure you've heard it said before but the terrorist only need to succeed
once to cause death and destruction but those trying to prevent it need to
be successful in their efforts 100% of the time. Personally, I don't feel
100% protection is possible in the lands of the free.

I too am amazed by forensic science. I remember a past bombing where
the investigators were reading VINs off vehicle parts and reconstructing
bomb timers. Prior to that I had always assumed that it something blew
up it was pretty much gone.

[NEOWatcher]

(not exactly in the flow of the conversation, but I didn't think this warrented a new topic)

Pope blames terrorism on fanatics (http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=38196)

Understatement of the year?

I'm hoping its just the press not knowing what to say about the Pope's reactions to the latest threats. Another story without facts kind of thing.

[tofu]

Pope blames terrorism on fanatics

Understatement of the year?

Well hey, the BBC refuses to call them terrorists.

[jfribrg]

I remember flying one way about 2 years ago. I set off all of the flags. Male flying alone. One way ticket. no luggage. I arrived early because I knew that the security folks would be extra thorough with me.

I don't know if a commuter buying a one-way ticket on a local train would arouse suspicion though.

[Reactor]

To me it seems you could set a timer pretty much any time while travelling on your target train, provided you knew the detonation time - all three train blasts were at virtually the same time which seems to rule out any random timer setting though.
I agree maybe they could have been duped into thinking they were planting devices (they bought a pay and display parking ticket for their car in Luton which seems to be some kind of an indication that they were planning on returning to it)

[pghnative]

One of the features of the London tube attacks was that the explosions occured in between stops. This maximized the difficulty of rescue.

Assuming that was a planned feature, then it makes more sense that the bombers triggered the blast.

If the bombs were simply triggered by time, then maybe it was just coincidence that the trains were between stops. Any idea what the likelihood of that is? In otherwords, what proportion of time is the average train "in transit" versus "loading". At a busy time (lots of time spent loading/offloading) in a city (short distance in between stops), this might well be 50/50 for each bomb.

[Taks]

the software algorithms they use to spot suspicious flights has been in place for years, actually. keep in mind, there was a time when there were guards armed with machine guns roaming the airports (80s i think).

my boss and i flew to LA (from CO) once and met our sales rep flying in from sacramento. we all then flew down to san diego, but had differing return flights. snag-o-rama. all three of us being patted down on the wall simultaneously was humorous if you had that sense of humor. we did. :)

taks

[Disinfo Agent]

(not exactly in the flow of the conversation, but I didn't think this warrented a new topic)

Pope blames terrorism on fanatics (http://www.wkyc.com/news/news_fullstory.asp?id=38196)

Understatement of the year?

I'm hoping its just the press not knowing what to say about the Pope's reactions to the latest threats. Another story without facts kind of thing.
It might be his way of pointing out that Islam doesn't automatically make people terrorists.

Yep:

Speaking to reporters during a vacation trip to the Italian Alps, the pope said terrorism isn’t the result of a clash of civilization between the West and Islam.

The pontiff said he thinks a dialogue between the three monotheistic religions is “very important.”

[Cylinder]

In otherwords, what proportion of time is the average train "in transit" versus "loading". At a busy time (lots of time spent loading/offloading) in a city (short distance in between stops), this might well be 50/50 for each bomb.

Right. It's roughly equal for the central London stations - or at least it was when I was there 10 years ago.

[pghnative]

In otherwords, what proportion of time is the average train "in transit" versus "loading". At a busy time (lots of time spent loading/offloading) in a city (short distance in between stops), this might well be 50/50 for each bomb.

Right. It's roughly equal for the central London stations - or at least it was when I was there 10 years ago.Which would translate to ~ 1 in 8 chance that all three went off (randomly) between stops.

All of this is conjecture of course --- plus, the one on the bus doesn't make sense. Possibly a screwup. (For instance, supposedly the hijackers of flight 93 waited until after breakfast before acting. That, coupled with Newark airport's ability to be 45 minutes behind schedule on a cloudless morning meant that 93 never made it where it was going.)

[captain swoop]

They didn't all go off in tunnels, one went off entering a station, all 3 went of within 60 seconds or so of each other. In the centre of the city it's a matter of a minute between some of the stops on the central and circle lines. (Between Leicester Square and Covent Garden it takes longer to go into the station and get onto the train than it does to walk between stops, same for Tottenham Court Rd and Oxford Circus

[Donnie B.]

Re: the original topic, it seems to me that yesterday's second wave of (attempted) bombings contradicts the "tricked into suicide" hypothesis. If that were the case, why would another group of four bombers go through with their plans?

It will be interesting to see if the unexploded bombs provide enough evidence to track down the perpetrators.

[Reactor]

Pure speculation from me, but I expect the devices from yesterday to be made from the same 'batch' of acetone peroxide as the ones from two weeks ago - the chemicals having degraded or separated since then to a point where only the detonators exploded yesterday (its no coincidence all four failed to explode properly)

Back on topic, I agree as above, if the four from yesterday are linked to those from two weeks ago (and the timing seems to have been to coincide with a memorial service which was taking place at the BMA - the scene of the bus bombing two weeks ago) then it suggests the people carrying the devices knew what they were doing.