Incident's in London (CNN-now)

[banquo's_bumble_puppy]

Incidents in London??? Breaking news....anyone know anything?

http://edition.cnn.com/

[worzel]

No casaulties reported - three tube lines suspended. Apparently someone's rucksack exploded on the tube but didn't hurt anyone, not even the person wearing it. Apparently there are other incidents as well, but it's all pretty vague at the moment. A friend of mine has an incident with a bus going on outside his flat on the corner of Hackney Road and Columbia road and has been told by the police to stay inside.

[Reactor]

One injury (not serious) - two arrests (possibly not even related to the attempted blasts).

The pattern is similar to that of 2 weeks ago - three tube stations and one bus targetted. Devices appear to have been small, and reports are that either only the detonators exploded, or the devices werent intended to cause widespread casualties/damage (still in the speculation phase though).

(police conference going on at the moment - commissioner states it appears "some of the devices failed to explode" - open to interpretation though)

[electromagneticpulse]

I think it's copycat; Al Qaeda doesn't have a history for messing up as it exposes the ladder. 4 bombers can point fingers to the leader of their group, who usually runs other groups, and knows the specialists, and knows the people at the level above him. Highly suspicious to me.

I do find it disgusting how the ITV news said a nail bomb had gone off which gives panic, especially when the last nail bombs (1999) were by a neo-nazi injuring 30 and the other 39, 3 died from them. They've been doing horrible news coverage making everything sound as bad as possible, I couldn't watch the original ITV reports as they kept saying X people murdered and all the words they could that have a psychological effect. They also keep reporting 7/7 as suicide bombings when the police haven't confirmed that yet as they clearly intended to come out of it alive. It makes me feel sick that they appear to be trying to get ratings off of a terrorist attack, again.

[01101001]

They also keep reporting 7/7 as suicide bombings when the police haven't confirmed that yet as they clearly intended to come out of it alive.
Latest news has it that the backpacks and bombs used July 21 were the same sort as the July 7 bombings. Do you suppose this second group was also expecting to come out of their experience alive?

[electromagneticpulse]

Can't comment on this one but the last one they supposedly bought return tickets, why? I mean you're going to london and you don't get a return ticket isn't suspicious. They also left their car parked with bombs in the back so they possibly planned to come out of the first ones alive and get a second bombing off in the aftermath.

I think they planned to get out of there before the bombs went off or they wouldn't have tried to cover it up by return tickets etc and in Al Qaeda style would most likely have worn a jacket if they were suicide bombers as the jackets carry more weight up to 40lbs IIRC. I'm sure there are people here who could tell us how much damage 40lbs of RDX would do, if I remember right the terrorist version simply contains less HMX but isn't significantly weaker.

The bombers also carried identification, which gave links back when they could have left all that in the car. They could have been lied to about the timing on the bomb so they didn't get away in time or something. If they were timed the bus bomber was supposedly fidgeting with his bag a lot, which is a bad move with a detonator. I have a friend in the local mine who says the detonators can be set off by hitting them against the corner of a desk or even by crimping the metal onto the detonator. If he'd hit the pack too hard or into his lap it could have set if off easily depending on the material contained in the detonator.

I'm not saying they could have been suicide bombings, but until the police say so the media shouldn't be reporting it as that because it brings a level of fanaticism to england we've never had before. Not to mention it breaks the journalist’s code of ethics as I never once heard them say alleged in front of suicide bombers, which is an awful thing to do to the families, they still have rights which people seem to forget and one had a daughter (another reason to come home). Personally I would rather grow up the son of a mass murderer instead of the son of a religious fanatic that had been brain washed.

[George]

FWIW, we are thinking of ya'll and wishing the best for you. Doesn't sound near so bad. It is strange to hear of ineptness.

[banquo's_bumble_puppy]

Police shoot man dead- today

http://edition.cnn.com/

[Reactor]

I posted a theory on another thread about this - pure speculation from me, but I have seen reports that claim traces of TATP (a form of acetone peroxide) were found in yesterday's devices which points to a link with those from two weeks ago - if all devices were mixed and constructed from the same batch then it would seem possible that the four devices from yesterday had experienced some form of seperation or degradation over the past two weeks leading to just the detonators exploding (as heard by various eye witnesses) - I would be interested to know if the recent heat wave in England could have contributed to a breakdown of the compound.

[Astrobairn]

Police shoot man dead- today

http://edition.cnn.com/

Given the Police's record for shooting people I'll reserve judgement. Remember the armed Irish terrorist who was shot dead and turned out to be a Scot with a table leg? #-o

[Sleepy]

Police shoot man dead- today

http://edition.cnn.com/

Given the Police's record for shooting people I'll reserve judgement. Remember the armed Irish terrorist who was shot dead and turned out to be a Scot with a table leg? #-oIn this case he was identified from CCTV of yesterdays incidents. He was located last night and was being followed to see if he would lead the police to the other bombers. However he entered a tube station. Police decided to take no risk of a further attack and challenged him. He fled. The police were then forced to assume the worst. He was tackled and shot by specialist SO19 officers, apparently applying an anti suicide bomber protocol.

Source Sky News (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189947,00.html)

[Astrobairn]

Police shoot man dead- today

http://edition.cnn.com/

Given the Police's record for shooting people I'll reserve judgement. Remember the armed Irish terrorist who was shot dead and turned out to be a Scot with a table leg? #-oIn this case he was identified from CCTV of yesterdays incidents. He was located last night and was being followed to see if he would lead the police to the other bombers. However he entered a tube station. Police decided to take no risk of a further attack and challenged him. He fled. The police were then forced to assume the worst. He was tackled and shot by specialist SO19 officers, apparently applying an anti suicide bomber protocol.

Source Sky News (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189947,00.html)

If that is true then I doubt they had an option. However I'll wait for an official statement.

[Sleepy]

If that is true then I doubt they had an option. However I'll wait for an official statement.
Sir Ian Blair stated in the recent press briefing that the shooting was linked directly to yesterdays incidents.

[Donnie B.]

If that is true then I doubt they had an option. However I'll wait for an official statement.
Sir Ian Blair stated in the recent press briefing that the shooting was linked directly to yesterdays incidents.
Which, if true, means they killed their best lead.

[Sleepy]

If that is true then I doubt they had an option. However I'll wait for an official statement.
Sir Ian Blair stated in the recent press briefing that the shooting was linked directly to yesterdays incidents.
Which, if true, means they killed their best lead.He was challenged by the police, and ran. Didn't leave the police much choice. I'm sure that having this subject alive and talking would have been the police's preferance.

[Donnie B.]

He was challenged by the police, and ran. Didn't leave the police much choice. I'm sure that having this subject alive and talking would have been the police's preferance.
I had no intention of implying otherwise. I simply stated a fact.

[Astrobairn]

Police shoot man dead- today

http://edition.cnn.com/

Given the Police's record for shooting people I'll reserve judgement. Remember the armed Irish terrorist who was shot dead and turned out to be a Scot with a table leg? #-oIn this case he was identified from CCTV of yesterdays incidents. He was located last night and was being followed to see if he would lead the police to the other bombers. However he entered a tube station. Police decided to take no risk of a further attack and challenged him. He fled. The police were then forced to assume the worst. He was tackled and shot by specialist SO19 officers, apparently applying an anti suicide bomber protocol.

Source Sky News (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189947,00.html)

BBC news just stated that he wasn't one of the suspects on the CCTV pictures.

[Cylinder]

This latest incident brings two questions to my mind that one of our resident-chemists could possibly shed some light on.

1. Would it seem more likely that TATP would degrade to such a state in 2 weeks that all four devices would fail or that two separate batches were concocted - one of them flawed?

2. Could clandestine TATP labs be interdicted in the same manner police use to interdict meth labs here in the US - by certain signature purchases?

Police shoot man dead- today

http://edition.cnn.com/

Given the Police's record for shooting people I'll reserve judgement. Remember the armed Irish terrorist who was shot dead and turned out to be a Scot with a table leg? #-oIn this case he was identified from CCTV of yesterdays incidents. He was located last night and was being followed to see if he would lead the police to the other bombers. However he entered a tube station. Police decided to take no risk of a further attack and challenged him. He fled. The police were then forced to assume the worst. He was tackled and shot by specialist SO19 officers, apparently applying an anti suicide bomber protocol.

Source Sky News (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1189947,00.html)

BBC news just stated that he wasn't one of the suspects on the CCTV pictures.

Unfortunately, it now seems he was a Brazilian with no connection to the bombings.

[Musashi]

Unfortunate that he chose to run.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

[Astrobairn]

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

They were plain clothes officers.

[electromagneticpulse]

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

They were plain clothes officers.

He was running onto a subway the day after a terrorist attack, police shout stop. You stop dead. You freeze and if helpful stop breathing all together. As he wasn't doing anything wrong, when a police officer shouts, "police, stop!" you have no reason to run. So personally I'd have to say it's, unfortunately, his own fault.

[W.F. Tomba]

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

They were plain clothes officers.

He was running onto a subway the day after a terrorist attack, police shout stop. You stop dead. You freeze and if helpful stop breathing all together. As he wasn't doing anything wrong, when a police officer shouts, "police, stop!" you have no reason to run. So personally I'd have to say it's, unfortunately, his own fault.
But did he know they were police? What if he thought they were terrorists?

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

They were plain clothes officers.

He was running onto a subway the day after a terrorist attack, police shout stop. You stop dead. You freeze and if helpful stop breathing all together. As he wasn't doing anything wrong, when a police officer shouts, "police, stop!" you have no reason to run. So personally I'd have to say it's, unfortunately, his own fault.

He was Brazilian so I assume they shouted "Policias!" "Parada!"

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

They were plain clothes officers.

Wouldn't really make a difference to me, but thanks for the correction. He still should have stopped when they yelled at him. Certainly it is tragic, but, well, he should have stopped. He was running around in the London Underground very soon after the attacks. He should have known better.

[captain swoop]

S ohe should be executed?
When did we become a police state? When was the punishment for looking a bit foreigh changed to five bullets in the head?
If 3 scruffy looking blokes pulled guns and starteds shouting in a tube shortly after the scares and attacks I think I would have run away as well.

The whole thing stinks. 'We were under pressure to get results' says the Met. Thats exactly what they pleaded when it turned out they beat confessions out of the Birmingham 6, they spent nearly 20 years in jail just for being Irish. And the Guildford 4, 'Under pressure for results' when the confessions were tortureds out of them.

Last year they shot a guy laid in bed on a bungled drugs raid, they claimed he was a threat to the officers. A guy was shot in the back coming out of a pub by two officers because they thought he had a shotgun in a carrier bag, they were 'under pressure'

Seems to me the statement given yesterday by the the Met Commissioner ammounted to We may shoot you in the head but it's for your own good'

[kucharek]

Well, it was his own fault. If a heavily armed police officer yells at me to stop, I'm stopping. Common sense.

They were plain clothes officers.

Wouldn't really make a difference to me, but thanks for the correction. He still should have stopped when they yelled at him. Certainly it is tragic, but, well, he should have stopped. He was running around in the London Underground very soon after the attacks. He should have known better.

No matter what happened before, running in the tube shouldn't be handled with a death penalty. Perhaps he felt threatened by the guys and ran away. Maybe he had some other business that made him act the way he did. You can shoot if you definitively know the guy is weraing explosives. But not if he just behaves suspectible.

[worzel]

Given that the Brazilian turned out not to be a suicide bomber, I think it is very unlikely that he realized they were police officers. Terrible situation for the police to be put in once they're authorised to kill like this.

[Melusine]

This is most unfortunate. They said they saw him coming out of a building under surveillance, and that he was wearing a heavy coat, which was unusual for summer. But if the police were in plain clothes, maybe he thought they were terrorists or some guys after him related to something else? Maybe he was dealing drugs or something, who knows? What if one forgets and runs to a late train? The witnesses' accounts presented on TV were not very thorough. Police said "he failed to stop when challenged." What words were exchanged? Did they identify themselves as police, you know hold up their badges? (someone saying "police" without proof means nothing to me, and I wouldn't stop or open my door, especially if they were holding a gun) Witnesses said he fell "like a cornered rabbit." Did they find anything on the guy like drugs or something that would explain why he may have "challenged" them? If not, we'll never know why he ran. And if they saw him come from the building and were tailing him to the subway, why did they wait until that point to approach him and tell him to stop. The explanation is not thorough enough.

[Lianachan]

I saw an Islamic community leader in London on the news this morning. He was saying that the "shoot to kill" policy means that people don't have to just fear terrorists, they have to fear the police too. This incident is an absolute disaster, the ripples of which are bound to last for a long, long time.

[Melusine]

You see, it's confusing, because this BBC article says:

They will be also be asking why someone lying on the floor and apparently offering no resistance was shot, according to eyewitnesses, five times in the head.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4711779.stm
So, if he at first ran, then stopped....??? There is more in the article about the 27-year old. These things happen plenty enough in the US--police getting jittery, and shooting someone too fast, and sometimes it's understandable, sometimes not. Some officers have better judgment than others. Naturally, people are on edge. But this is no consolation to his family and friends. How will they prevent this from happening again?

[electromagneticpulse]

This is a terrible situation true, but I'm not sure why anyone is condoning it, yes they made a mistake but we've already got 60 dead on our hands it is unfortunate but that man could have been a terrorist and if he had people would be complaining why they didn't shoot to kill when we got the next 60 dead.

People are hypocrites plain and simple, they want one thing and when they've got it they don't like it. I prefer 1 innocent dead to 60 any day, if people don't like that then I guess they can look forward to being in the next death toll.

Personally I feel they should have tackled him early but I don't condemn what happened, I have no right to because I don't want another terrorist attack and when we have extremists in our own country I don't see why people complain. I don’t like the shoot to kill policy but if we could ask someone in 9/11 or 7/7 I’m sure they wouldn’t condemn a shoot to kill policy if it saved lives.

[Sleepy]

The BBCi (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713651.stm) have reported that his visa had expired, this may go a long way to explaining why he ran.

[captain swoop]

Our lovely Police Chief is saying that he expects more innocent people to be shot by the police but it's the price we are going to pay for increased security as they intensify their search for the bombers.

Why is he still i na ajob? has has as good as admitted that the police are going to execute innocent people on the streets of the capital.!!

Our lovely Home Secretary is still insistning the police don't have a 'shoot to kill' policy but his own employee is telling us he does have that very policy. :evil: :evil: :evil:

[Argos]

This is most unfortunate. They said they saw him coming out of a building under surveillance, and that he was wearing a heavy coat, which was unusual for summer. But if the police were in plain clothes, maybe he thought they were terrorists or some guys after him related to something else?

Days before the event he had been assaulted by a racist gang. He didn´t recognize the police at the station and ran. As to the coat, most Brazilians run to wear one as the termometer gets to 18C.

[Argos]

Days before the event he had been assaulted by a racist gang.

I got this info from sunday night shows on the two most important Brazilain TV networks and one major newspaper, "Folha de São Paulo". I learned this morning of the expired visa, and I think this explains things better.

[worzel]

This is a terrible situation true, but I'm not sure why anyone is condoning it, yes they made a mistake but we've already got 60 dead on our hands it is unfortunate but that man could have been a terrorist and if he had people would be complaining why they didn't shoot to kill when we got the next 60 dead.
Absolultely. Once the police have been given the shoot to kill policy for a suspect then they have an unknown chance of being damned whether they do or don't. But I think it is fair to question the grounds on which the police had their suspicions - it is understandable for a person terrified for their life to run from a bunch of non-uniformed men waving guns no matter what they said.

What saddens me is that despite our claims to the contrary, the terrorists have changed our way of life in central London when we see police packing MP5s everywhere and accept a shoot to kill policy as a necessity.

[The Supreme Canuck]

S ohe should be executed?

I never said that it was a good thing that he was shot. Far from it. It is terrible. I'm just saying that in light of heightened security around the London public transit system, he should have known better. Just like people should know better than to shout "Bomb!" on an airplane. You just might get downed by an air marshal.

[captain swoop]

Home Secretary was on the radio last night, he says the guy did have a valid Visa and he doesn't know why the police were claiming he didn't.

I do it's so they can deflect some of the blame for the murder onto the victim. It's standard police practice, claim hew was a 'wrong un' anyway.

Turns out he was shot 8 times in the head. No mention in qany of the British press about him being assaulted by a 'racist gang' I think that's just in the Brazilian papers.

[John Kierein]

The BBCi (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4713651.stm) have reported that his visa had expired, this may go a long way to explaining why he ran.

Why he ran. He also had a forged stamp.
http://tinyurl.com/exbqf

[captain swoop]

CCTV pictures show the guy wearing a small denim jacket, not a big overcoat as claimed and he used his travel pass to go through the ticket barrier, he didn't vault it as claimed.

[Argos]

I´ve learned that his visa was 2 years expired.

[Platinum Rhymer]

I´ve learned that his visa was 2 years expired.

Argos, dont mean to spam this thread but could you reply to my last PM...

Sorry threadmaker. :oops:

[collegeguy]

Some new claims on the incident. Conspiracy theorists are going nuts over it:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/attackonlondon/story/0,16132,1550565,00.html