Now what am I supposed to do?

[space cadet]

I've been working towards a college degree in education for the past five years. This summer I did my student teaching. I just finished yesterday. I was under the impression that I was doing quite well. It was challenging since most of the students I was working with (fifth graders) were ESL students or problem students, and had been referred to summer school by their teachers during the school year. However, under the circumstances I felt like I did quite well. But apparently my cooperating teacher thought otherwise, and gave me the lowest score possible on my evaluation. When I asked her about it, she said it was just a lot of little things that added up, but she wouldn't give me any specifics. Now my professor and the guy in charge of the education program at USU are suggesting that "maybe teaching just isn't for you."

I don't know how the professor could make that conclusion when he only saw me working with the students for a total of 15 minutes. I was completely devastated and made an idiot of myself by breaking down and crying like a baby in front of him and the cooperating teachers.

For the last five years the only goal I've been working towards is being a teacher. Now I'm really afraid that I might have just blown it. Even though they said they'd consider giving me a second chance at student teaching, I'm not sure if I can work with these people after I embarrassed myself so much in front of them. But I don't know what else to do with myself. I just want to be a teacher, but I'm getting so disillusioned with the way the system works I'm just not sure I can deal with it. And now my whole family is disappointed in me.

Anyway, I'm through whining. Hopefully I can sweep up the peices and figure out what I'm going to do with myself. Have you ever heard of anyone changing their major when they're only one semester from graduation?

[N C More]

This guy observes you for 15 minutes and makes that determination? There's something not *right* here. The fact that your professor can't give you any specific reasons for this also really bothers me. I'd go and see your academic advisor as soon as you can.

Maybe the age group you were working with isn't a good fit for you? Maybe you were just too nervous being observed? Request a different professor to work with during your next time student teaching (it's very possible that this entire issue was a personality conflict). Request that the previous professor give you very specific areas where he/she felt you need improvement. You're paying for your education and unless they can very specifically tell you why they don't think you should become a teacher then they aren't doing their job very well, are they?

[R.A.F.]

You're paying for your education and unless they can very specifically tell you why they don't think you should become a teacher then they aren't doing their job very well, are they?

I agree...

And I'll add that I just don't see how you are suppose to "improve" (with a 2nd chance) if they can't tell you what you've done "wrong" to begin with.

[Jpax2003]

Well, crying in frustration and disappointment doesn't sound like the teachers I grew up with. I think they were made of sterner stuff. I've noticed a recent trend over the last couple decades: both educators and parents alike want to be friends to their charges. I think this has lead to the current crises in american children. Children will respect authority when their authorities act in a way that demands respect.

I'm not suggesting that you didn't act this way or that ESL and problem students aren't a challenge even to an exemplary and veteran educator. I would expect a reviewing teacher to be a good observer and communicator who should be able to tell you where and how you failed -- anything less should be suspect. The fact that your cooperating teacher didn't give any specifics should be reason enough to retry student teaching. However, you may really want to think about whether teaching is right for you.

[tofu]

you know what, when I think about all the teachers I had growing up, they seem to fall into just two categories: very bad and very good. I don't think I ever had a teacher who was anything other than very bad or very good. But here's the thing, what differentiated the two wasn't so much what they did in the classroom, it was their attitude toward me.

I specifically remember two teachers in particular that I would call "bad" teachers. The reason I remember these two is that at one time or another, both of them mentioned the fact that they had gone into education because they had no other choice, or because a parent did it, or something like that. So, I got the impression that they really didn't want to be there, that they were just cruising along, looking forward each day to when they could go home.

The absolute best teacher I had in high school was my physics teacher. She loved what she did, and her enthusiasm was contagious. A close second was the history teacher. He loved everything about history and he loved talking about it and teaching it. What made these teachers good wasn't how they conducted class, or how they designed their curriculum. It wasn't that they were easy teachers or hard teachers. What made them great was their attitude.

I think that what happened to you was, a "professional" teacher observed you for 15 minutes and didn't see you say the right things or do the right things, you know, the "right things" that they teach you college. But in my humble opinion, those things have absolutely no bearing on your actual value as a teacher. What's more important, in my opinion, is that you actually want to be a teacher.

So what I'm saying is that even though I don't know you, I can already tell that you're going to be one of the good teachers. You're not going to be just punching the clock, looking forward to going home, doing the minimum necessary to get by. You are going to be one of the ones who care. So I say, don't let this guy get you down. Do whatever you have to do to graduate and then find a job doing what you love. Years from now, the kids whom you have a positive affect on will thank you for it.

Good luck.

[R.A.F.]

Children will respect authority when their authorities act in a way that demands respect.

Trust and respect are things that you earn...you can't "demand" respect.

[Gillianren]

Well, crying in frustration and disappointment doesn't sound like the teachers I grew up with. I think they were made of sterner stuff.

how often did you see your teachers just after they'd had their life's goal shattered? not often, I suspect. frankly, I think that if you don't cry after something like that, you've got issues.

I agree that there's something fishy about the fact that they won't tell you exactly what you did wrong. even if it is a lot of little things, the person should be able to say what they are.

besides, I'll about guarantee you weren't as bad as the student teacher I helped get fired once. I mean, you didn't tell your ESL kids that they should go back where they came from, did you?

[Jpax2003]

Children will respect authority when their authorities act in a way that demands respect.

Trust and respect are things that you earn...you can't "demand" respect.

Well in my context it means that same thing as I imply that teachers should act in that manner. Respect should be earned, even with children, but obediance should also be demanded either way. Or perhaps command is the better word. In any event, maintaining an emotional distance would seem preferable, since those who were either too friendly or too angry at their students were the least effective, in my experience.

[space cadet]

No, I would have never said anything like that. :( And neither do I believe in letting my students walk all over me. I didn't tolerate that kind of stuff in the classroom, but I wasn't mean either. I just wish I knew where I went wrong.

[Moose]

Well in my context it means that same thing as I imply that teachers should act in that manner. Respect should be earned, even with children, but obediance should also be demanded either way. Or perhaps command is the better word.

Tyrrany demands obediance. Leadership leads in such a way that one wants to follow, even if the task is unpleasant and/or dangerous.

I've had teachers who were tyrants. And I've had teachers who were leaders, and to this day, I think I would be willing to follow these teachers anywhere they needed me to go.

[Jpax2003]

Well, crying in frustration and disappointment doesn't sound like the teachers I grew up with. I think they were made of sterner stuff.

how often did you see your teachers just after they'd had their life's goal shattered? not often, I suspect. frankly, I think that if you don't cry after something like that, you've got issues.

Well, I seem to remember by 3rd grade teacher crying after they found the body of her missing teenage daughter who was kidnapped and murdered by her ex boyfriend. I think my high school computer teacher cried at the funeral of his 20 year old son after he finally succumbed to brain cancer after beating the odds in 8th grade and making it past graduation to college. But these events are a little different than getting a bad review, which is kinda my point. Crying in public after a personal tragedy is one thing, crying over a professional misstep or disappointment is another. If someone is going to break down after being told she is not a good teacher by other teachers, then how well will she respond after being told that by angry parents who just know it can't be their kid's fault for bad grades? I'm not saying that is a description of Space Cadet, just that it might be something to think about.

[Musashi]

Wow JPAX.

Anyhow space cadet, I also think it is fishy that your reviewer(s) won't tell you what you did wrong. I don't know what kind of things you can do to fix the situation, but if they continue to bs you, there must be some way to go over their heads?

[Jpax2003]

Well in my context it means that same thing as I imply that teachers should act in that manner. Respect should be earned, even with children, but obediance should also be demanded either way. Or perhaps command is the better word.

Tyrrany demands obediance. Leadership leads in such a way that one wants to follow, even if the task is unpleasant and/or dangerous.

I've had teachers who were tyrants. And I've had teachers who were leaders, and to this day, I think I would be willing to follow these teachers anywhere they needed me to go.

I guess we just disagree. I think teachers are in the business of tyranny. The ability to exercise free will to choose to follow a teacher/leader is an adult trait. While some children may exhibit this trait and prefer to follow their teacher, they really don't have the option of not doing so. Children aren't simply little versions of adults. I think Heinlein explains this well in Starship Troopers.

[Jpax2003]

Wow JPAX.

Anyhow space cadet, I also think it is fishy that your reviewer(s) won't tell you what you did wrong. I don't know what kind of things you can do to fix the situation, but if they continue to bs you, there must be some way to go over their heads?

Was that wow about what I am saying or about what happened to some of my former educators? Those were real stories. I apologize if some of what I said was harsh, but I am being the devil's advocate. Space Cadet is probably a capable teaching candidate who ran into a reviewer with a chip on his/her shoulder. I am sure perseverence will count for something if she opts to try again.

[space cadet]

I frankly don't care if they think I'm not competant as a teacher because I know otherwise; my students' comprehension of the subject matter shows that I'm at least getting the message across, and the great majority of them did at least 30% better on the post-test than they had on the pre-test. The thing that makes me so upset is the fact that this bad review is going to force me to postpone my graduation, affect the way everyone in the education department interacts with me.

But I think JPAX is right, crying in public over something like that is really lame. I don't cry very often, but when I do I simply cannot control it no matter how hard I try. Its the worse thing in the world.

Tuesday I'm going to try to talk to my counselor and see what can be done, but I'm worried now what all these people think of me after I cried so hard. If they had a bad impression of me before, they must think I'm completely incompetant now. I feel so awful I just want to disappear.

[Jpax2003]

Was there anything else going on in your life that might have had an effect on your emotions? That would be a mitigating factor in an emotional outburst. It also might depend on how a person cries. Tears from shock and frustration are probably more acceptable than uncontrollable sobbing.

Do they send you to a different school to student-teach at? It might make a do-over that much easier. Maybe they could place you in a general curriculum class instead of special needs, unless that is your specialized field.

[Melusine]

I would be angry/perturbed that specific reasons weren't given to you. That makes it seem like the evaluator's opinions are just subjective feelings, and some of the feelings could be based on teaching style preferences (something I see at work, because we all interact with the public in different ways). If my boss gave me a review with vague comments like that, I'd be ticked off--that's just not professional. You chose to be there, you deserve the courtesy of honest and direct feedback.

So, I'd pick up your chin, and like you say, go to talk to her and tell her some of what you said here:

-For the last five years the only goal I've been working towards is being a teacher.
-my students' comprehension of the subject matter shows that I'm at least getting the message across, and the great majority of them did at least 30% better on the post-test than they had on the pre-test.

I remember a documentary we saw in my Student Teaching class about this young teacher who went home crying all the time in her first year--and she wasn't even at one of the tough schools. She ended up being a great teacher, winning awards, and such. After my field work, I can understand why many student teachers cry, but no, I don't think crying in front of supervisors is a good thing, but what's done is done. You can dignify that by being honest and firm with her, (this was your first evaluation, and the subsequent comments surprised you, and the lack of specifics were frustrating, especially since your students showed improvement), and seriously, the counselor needs to know she did a disservice by not offering specifics. The other comments about "maybe teaching isn't for you" are useless if unsupported, too. The young teacher wanted to give up so many times, but she honestly felt it was her path, and kept plugging on. I, otoh, determined I would probably butt heads too often with administrators, and parents who won't take responsibility for or interest in their kids. Some people just shouldn't have kids. These are things you can only come to decide on over time. These people sound discouraging!

But, I feel for teachers; unlike other jobs where one is expected to do their job well, teachers are also expected to be inspirational to their students, and nowadays they also have to play the role of social worker to a large degree. In grammar school, I was expected to do well no matter what my teacher was like--some were boring, some mean, some special, most were mediocre or average. Parents instilled this in me--in real life, you will not always have a boss you like, but you still have to do well. Yes, I regret some of my teachers in highschool were less than inspiring, but those are the breaks; we put a lot of pressure on teachers, and compared to the other professions, they start off with low salaries. Not every doctor becomes a doctor because they have this passionate love of medicine or even people. It's unrealistic to think that teachers, say after 20 years of teaching, will have this unbridled enthusiasm that many others in other professions don't have. It's also pretty darn difficult for a teacher to not be frustrated when it's a good day when some students just show up after being out so much. They need to do their job well, but not everyone should be expected to "super-teacher."

We expect a lot from teachers, and then dump on them, when I believe most of the problems start with home. Jpax, I don't know what all you mean by "teachers are in the business of tyranny," I disagree with that, but I do agree that teachers shouldn't be "friends," and should maintain a healthy distance of authority while encouraging a student to feel he/she can come to the teacher with questions (problems are for guidance counselors). I think the biggest problem I noticed in school were students who were just missed or not paid close attention to, i.e. students who should have been challenged more, challenged less, or needed a good pep talk, but didn't get one. Now, all I hear is tests, tests, tests in the paper, and it's getting ridiculous (ok, I ended up ranting).

Good luck Space Cadet, and don't give up until you're sure teaching isn't for you. :)

[R.A.F.]

Was there anything else going on in your life that might have had an effect on your emotions? That would be a mitigating factor in an emotional outburst.


Oh for the love of...Jpax2003, let me give you some friendly advice...

Quit while you're ahead, with each post you're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper...

[Jpax2003]

Was there anything else going on in your life that might have had an effect on your emotions? That would be a mitigating factor in an emotional outburst.


Oh for the love of...Jpax2003, let me give you some friendly advice...

Quit while you're ahead, with each post you're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper...

Get thee thine shovel out of thine own hands.

[sarongsong]

... I know otherwise; my students' comprehension of the subject matter shows that...the great majority of them did at least 30% better on the post-test than they had on the pre-test...Well, there you go! =D> =D> =D>

[Krevel]

Consider this, Space Cadet: They may just be testing your mettle. Perhaps your teachers are just testing your devotion. Maybe they're just trying to prepare you for some of the second-guessing that you WILL encounter when you actually begin teaching.

Perhaps, though, they also need a lesson in good teaching. Telling someone that they are incompetent, but not explaining why, is hardly a good teaching method. This would, of course, mean that the people who are teaching you education are not really up to the task. Maybe you just need to find a new school.

Either way,don't give up on your dream. Teaching, like any skill, requires not just expertice and desire, but practice as well. You didn't ride a bike on your first try, there's no reason to think that you'll be 'teacher of the year' on your first training session.

[Roving Philosopher]

I have a hard time seeing how "a lot of little things" could add up to the lowest evaluation score possible. I would press for a better explanation. If the teacher thought things were going that bad (even if they were little things), you should have been made aware of them early on. You might remind the teacher, and your professor for that matter, of the "student" part of student teaching. I would expect them to provide a little more than "lots of little things" and "maybe teaching isn't for you".

I'd give it another go if I were you. If you find it too difficult to work with the same people, you can also consider transferring to another school. I know it kinda sounds like you're shopping around for a school that will give you what you want, but if you are honest with the new school about your reasons for transferring, it's more like getting a second opinion. It might take a little longer to graduate (depending on how many credits transfer).

And about changing majors...

although my circumstances were nothing like yours, 3/4 of the way through my junior year as a computer science major, I lost all interest in my classes. I went less and less frequently, until I stopped attending classes altogether. I formally withdrew a week or two before the end of the semester, and transferred to a school at the other corner of the country to study philosophy. Most of my credits transferred, so it only took an extra year to finish (and that was as a half-time student).

One nice thing is that you'll have all of your basic requirements out of the way, so your class schedule will be full of classes related to your major. If you enjoy your major, this will be heaven.

So it can be done. But as you sound like you really want to teach, I would exhaust all of your options pursuing that before thinking about changing majors.

[mickal555]

Jpax said:
The ability to exercise free will to choose to follow a teacher/leader is an adult trait.
No It isn't, the more I get yelled at the less likly I am to follow someone- or improve my behaver(e.g if my dad is yelling at me about not taking the dog for a walk because I'm tired). I am thinking- well if I improve my behaveor now, he'll think that that's because of the yelling, and the argument, I'm not going to let him win just because he can yell louder...

While some children may exhibit this trait and prefer to follow their teacher, they really don't have the option of not doing so.
I can say that we do- even when I was younger (e.g grade 5[10])- I would be more likly to follow a teacher I liked more, say for example a teacher told me to pick up some rubbish depending on my mood and on the teacher I will pick it up (In actuall fact, I hardly ever picked up rubbish when I was younger- I thought it wasn't fair as it seemed like a punishment and I hadn't done anything wrong at the time). If I didn't agree with the teachers actions or demands, I would argue and argue the point. "why use it as a punishment if you make people do it anyway?"


Children aren't simply little versions of adults. I think Heinlein explains this well in [i]Starship Troopers.

true but they arn't blank slits either.

[W.F. Tomba]

Did she actually say "a lot of little things that added up"?

[space cadet]

Yeah, pretty much :(

I said, "what did I do that was so bad?"

she said, "you didn't do anything horrible, it was just a lot of little things that you need to improve on."

I said, "if they're just LITTLE things, why did I get the worst possible score? If I had done something big, that would warrant the worst possible score, but how can you give me such a bad score when I didn't do anything that was really, really bad??"

I can't remember exactly what she said to that, she didn't give a straight answer. Something about "it's for your own good" and "I can't in good conscience let you go on to level four because you just aren't qualified."

Maybe I should have been more persistant about getting a straight answer but I didn't want to risk making them angry too. :(

[W.F. Tomba]

Yeah, pretty much :(

I said, "what did I do that was so bad?"

she said, "you didn't do anything horrible, it was just a lot of little things that you need to improve on."

I said, "if they're just LITTLE things, why did I get the worst possible score? If I had done something big, that would warrant the worst possible score, but how can you give me such a bad score when I didn't do anything that was really, really bad??"

I can't remember exactly what she said to that, she didn't give a straight answer. Something about "it's for your own good" and "I can't in good conscience let you go on to level four because you just aren't qualified."

Maybe I should have been more persistant about getting a straight answer but I didn't want to risk making them angry too. :(
It sounds as if perhaps you took the discussion onto an argumentative tack. Not having been there, I can't tell whether her manner may have goaded you into that. (Some people have a way of making everything they say sound like a challenge to your honor.) But if your memory of the conversation is correct, you never actually asked her for specifics. Right after she mentioned "a lot of little things" would have been a good time to ask for specific examples, rather than challenge her conclusion on the basis of vague information. That could have completely changed the course of the conversation. I don't mean to berate you for mistakes that you can't go back and change; I just mean that this episode can, at the very least, serve as a powerful object lesson in why it's important to keep your head long enough to get good information before you get mad.

As for crying in front of others: if you feel it coming on, you can always say, "excuse me, I need to use the bathroom". That gives you a few minutes alone to compose yourself. They may suspect the reason, but what are they going to do? Just making a move like that suggests a certain level of composure and self-control, plus they may be pleased that you spared them the discomfort of watching you lose it.

Jpax said he thought his teachers wouldn't have cried in disappointment because they were "made of sterner stuff". I might say the same thing about my teachers--- but I never saw my teachers in their private moments, and I'll wager neither did he. Teacher is a mask you put on when you walk in the school doors. I have no idea why your cooperating teacher flunked you (she may not have had any good reasons, unfortunately), but if I had to guess at why your professor thinks that "maybe teaching just isn't for you", I would say it's because in your handling of this situation you also failed a test of your ability to keep that mask on.

OK, I'm done lecturing you. That's just my assessment of the situation based on what you've said about it; take it or leave it as you will.

[space cadet]

Yeah, I know. :( You're completely right, I blew it. I was so unprepared for this situation that I reacted in a way that probably only made things worse and now I'm kicking myself.

[Tensor]

Yeah, I know. :( You're completely right, I blew it. I was so unprepared for this situation that I reacted in a way that probably only made things worse and now I'm kicking myself.

I know I'm late to this, but I'm sorry to hear about this and hope things work out for you Space cadet.

[N C More]

Ok, I've read everyone's take on this. Who here is a teacher? Well, I am. I am, and I have over 30 years experience in teaching various subjects. Now, I say that something just isn't right here. These professors wait until right before Space Cadet's final semester to suddenly *spring* all of this on her? And to boot, they can't even give her specifics on what she needs to do to improve her performance?

Frankly, my internal alarm is going off loud and strong. Something here just isn't *right*, in my opinion. So what if she cried? If you rip someone's dream from them without even a reason for doing so what do you expect? Good Grief, that was a very unprofessional thing for them to have done in such a callous manner. Shame on them!

The most important things that one needs to teach others are willingness to do so, dedication, caring and perseverance. Space Cadet, go to your academic advisor and tell him just that. Tell him you want specific help in identifying your areas of weakness. Tell him you want to be taught how to best teach others. As for right now, I'm giving your professors a failing grade as they have not done their job!

I'm finished ranting now but this entire incident strikes me as very *wrong* to say the least.

[MrObvious]

I agree with you 100% N C More and yes I did teach for quite a few years before moving on.

Don't give up Space Cadet, don't give them the satisfaction of pushing aside yet another great potential teacher in favour of a robot.

[W.F. Tomba]

Ok, I've read everyone's take on this. Who here is a teacher? Well, I am. I am, and I have over 30 years experience in teaching various subjects. Now, I say that something just isn't right here. These professors wait until right before Space Cadet's final semester to suddenly *spring* all of this on her? And to boot, they can't even give her specifics on what she needs to do to improve her performance?
I've been thinking about this. space cadet, it sounds from your description as if the cooperating teacher graded you with just a single number. This seems bizarre, since teaching is an obvious example of a discipline that requires many discrete skills. Is there really no checklist? No sub-scores added up to form the main score? Do they just watch you and assign you a number? Is that the normal way they do things? Do other universities' teaching departments do it the same way? It just doesn't seem right that you would have to depend on the goodwill of the grader to find out why they gave you the score they did.

[Gillianren]

the longer this discussion goes, the more uneasy I feel about what you were told.

and you know what? I had a lot of teachers who were friends, starting with my orchestra teacher in sixth grade and continuing through my English/journalism teacher when I was a senior. most of the teachers who were also my friends got better/more work out of me than the teachers who just told me what to do and ignored me. heck, one of 'em could probably still get work out of me, and I graduated from high school ten years ago. (we're still in touch; she's in touch with a lot of her former students. she's a great woman and a great teacher.)

I don't know; maybe I'm more understanding of the crying because of the manic depression, which means I actually start crying in public for no good reason sometimes. you had a very good reason, as far as I'm concerned, and I probably would have been more convinced of my evaluation's being negative if you hadn't shown some kind of emotional reaction. again, to me, the fact that you got upset shows your great love of teaching.

I've had a wide range of teachers, from the excellent Mrs. Nicholson to the truly horrible ones (like my psych teacher in high school, who called me psychotic in front of the whole class). in fact, I've actually had a few mediocre teachers. it sounds to me like you have a great love of the job, and it sounds like you were actually teaching something. what "lots of little things" could be more important than that?

[Izunya]

A datapoint:

I am a teacher. Something similar to this happened to me.

JPax, even relatively tough-minded teachers will cry when they are threatened, even in sweet tones, with failing college, being denied licensure, having a note attached to their academic record saying that the professor thinks that they are too emotionally unstable to work in a field that requires extensive human contact--none of these happened, you understand, but all of them were mentioned to me at one time or another. A bad professor can really work you over, believe me. And even those stern old women you may remember were young eager idealists once. This is the sort of thing that hits young eager idealists pretty hard.

Also, I've noticed that teachers, social workers, and artists of all kinds don't think of their job as "just a job." It's a vocation. Even before you start, even if you get too sick to continue (like I am, temporarily, I hope) it becomes part of you. Being told you can't be a teacher is kind of like being told that you can't have your name, you don't deserve it, pick another one. It's a blow straight to the identity, and before you realize, yes, the professor could really do this to me, and start panicking, there's a split second when you almost want to laugh in her face. "Can't be a teacher! Yeah, that's a good one." It's absurd. You are a teacher.

On to the stuff that matters to Space Cadet: when this happened to me, it was unfair. It also happened mid-semester, so I pulled it out by keeping my nose clean and my head down. For me, there were plainly several factors operating, which led my intern supervisor to assume that I was directly challenging her authority. Some of these, obviously, apply only to me, but some of them may give you ideas, so I thought I'd give a brief list:

1. I was from Oak Ridge. I found out later, from an Oak Ridger who took the program previously, that this woman objected to the very idea of Oak Ridge. (Hey, I'm not too crazy about the bombs myself, but I also know that some very decent scientific research is going on around there.)

2. I suggested that my professor might be slightly mistaken when she talked about a field that I had some background in. I thought I was questioning her respectfully. Apparently, with her, there was no such thing as a respectful question.

(Oh, and for anyone who is interested, I was right, too. She was trying to tell me that stories for children always need to teach something useful (arguable and hard to quantify) and that they shouldn't contain "nasty" things, meaning not adult biology, but people being rude, violence or threats of violence, unhappiness, or in fact any tension whatsoever. And their heroes or heroines should not be "bad children" in any way, and . . .

I pointed out, rather mildly I thought, that books like Harry Potter are extremely popular with children and break almost all those rules. I was told that (a) just because children enjoyed certain books didn't make the books Good For Them, and (b) when I earned as much as J.K. Rowling, I could "come back and try to pick a fight with her." I apologized profusely, and I hope she didn't notice that I was basically apologizing for the fact that she thought I was trying to pick a fight.

And she was so wrong that wrongness itself looks on in awe and wonder. But, that's another rant.)

3. I did not display the right markings--I think of this as "representin'" gang colors. I did not share her political leanings or political bumper stickers. Neither did I share her religious beliefs; she stood up in class at one point and opined that to be a good teacher, a person needed first and foremost to be a good Christian believer. I don't want this thread locked for religion, but I trust that if I drop the word "Unitarian," many people will be able to figure out that I wasn't exactly what she was looking for. And I should probably leave it at that.

4. She disliked the students I worked with. I ended up with an eighth grade last-ditch summer school make-up kind of class, which contained some--interesting--characters. If they were removed from the summer school, for any reason, they would have to repeat eighth grade. My supervisor explicitly instructed us to expell as many of these students as possible, because "half of them are drug addicts and the other half are punks," and she didn't want them in her school. (She was slightly less complimentary to the girls; in her opinion, the clothing that they generally chose was indicative of, shall we say, early adult activity, and she would be unsurprised if some of the young women had chosen to turn a lifestyle choice into a private business venture.) She wanted them gone, under any pretext.

Me, I was there to teach, and I didn't have a particular problem with teaching punks. Perhaps I would be The Teacher who changes it all, who gives them a new goal and a new direction :wink: or, rather more realistically, perhaps I might get them mildly interested in something and prove, if only for one afternoon, that school is not something you sleep through and that's not a bad thing.

And, you know what, I liked these kids. Yes, they defied me, and yes, they tested me, and yes, once they had forgotten my name four or five times for real, it started being really funny so they kept doing it. But all in all, they were good kids. None of them were really hardened--I know the difference, I've been threatened by a hardened kid--they were just teenagers, maybe hitting the big roller-coaster a bit rougher than most.

Apparently, it is direct defiance if I mention politely to my supervisor that I don't think a child should be expelled. The thing is, she even asked for my opinion . . . :o

5. I just generally offended her. And it must have been on purpose, because she wouldn't take offense at an innocent mistake.

I'm going to end this post because I'm getting really sleepy and running out of coherence. But my advice is to find out if your professor has any dislikes that may interfere with her evaluation: evangelicals, people who aren't evangelical, deaf people, young people, etc. If you are black or Hispanic, or if the teacher is, you should probably spend an extra amount of time trying to analyze if cultural wires got crossed somehow. The rules on eye contact are slightly different with us Caucasian types, from what I've heard.

Anyhow, analyze, figure out if it's something professional or something personal, and if it's something personal, get a different supervising professor. Pronto.

Advice, worth what you paid for it, remember. Good luck.

Izunya

[Planetwatcher]

You know, my daughter went through something like that in her first student teaching assignment.
She appealed the decession, and did another term of student teaching.

This time she got a much better classroom and a more supportive host teacher. Knowing about my daughter's plight, at the end of that term, the host teacher had each student in the entire class write a goodbye and thank you letter to my daughter. These particular children were 3rd graders.
I got to read them and some of them were so touching they made me cry.

So my daughter selected several of the best letters, and included them in her portfolio, and quoted a few of the very best of the best in her resume.

In any occupation the best advertizement is satisfied customers.
As with potental teachers. Letters of tribute from students a teacher helped, will say way more then a dozen degrees, titles, being valavictorian, or graduating Cum Lauda.

While all are victories, Cum Lauda, titles, degrees, and being valavictorian
are personal victories and are over almost as fast as the experience;

But changing a student's life? Well that lives on in the student, and even in the people he/she will some day help.

Don't give up on your dream. If you have an appitude for it, then it will emerge, and if you don't, well that will also crop up and follow you.

[Jpax2003]

Jpax said he thought his teachers wouldn't have cried in disappointment because they were "made of sterner stuff". I might say the same thing about my teachers--- but I never saw my teachers in their private moments, and I'll wager neither did he. Teacher is a mask you put on when you walk in the school doors.

You're making my point. I didn't see my teachers cry when they were wearing their teacher mask, that's the point. When I did see it was when they weren't wearing the teacher mask, such as the funeral I already mentioned. A funeral may not be a "private moment" in your opinion but it's not a teacher moment either.

[MrObvious]

JPax I think you may have missed the mark here, she broke down in a closed room away from the students and was in the company of her professor and the co-op teachers, in other words in a private meeting. So students wouldn't have been able to see her break down so her "teacher mask" is intact as its not a teacher moment.

It was a student moment, she was being told that the the last few years of her life were a waste and by people that judged her on a single episode. For anyone to make a call like that is heartless and unprofessional. It shows me more about the lack of ability from her teachers not her own shortcomings.

To not be able to sum up why is pathetic. To assume that she can't correct a few little things and would rather see her try another vocation instead is just ludicrous.

Not only that but they can't even realise that to correct and to learn she would need to be told where her weaknesses lay. So bravo to her supervisors and proffesors, if they can so easily brush aside all the years of study and not be bothered or aren't competent enough to help her then what example are they setting......

[Jpax2003]

JPax I think you may have missed the mark here, she broke down in a closed room away from the students and was in the company of her professor and the co-op teachers, in other words in a private meeting. So students wouldn't have been able to see her break down so her "teacher mask" is intact as its not a teacher moment.

It was a student moment...

You may have a point here. But I was responding to W.F. Tomba in his terms as he wrote "Teacher is a mask you put on when you walk in the school doors."

[MrObvious]

Except she's not a teacher yet. In class she's practicing to be one. Out of class she's a student.
Thats one of the things a student teacher knows and feels and thats where the line from student to teacher changes.

Hence the name: student teacher :)

[Gillianren]

I talked the whole thing over with my friend Heather yesterday, because I wanted to make sure that my sympathy was with a person who got mistreated, not with someone I know who had a bad thing happen.

Heather agrees that this was not right. at all. even if it was "a lot of little things," that's something that should be mentioned at the time you start doing them, because otherwise, you're repeating the mistake at length.

and again, there's no way you were as bad as the worst student teacher I've ever had. a few examples:

the aforementioned "go back where they came from" remark. aside from the obvious fact that, since his ancestors could have been on this country a few hundred years at the absolute longest, he's of immigrant stock, too, there's no way you should make this comment in a public high school in urban Los Angeles County. his supervising teacher had six student aides that summer; all six were Hispanic.

we were reading The Chocolate War, which I don't think is tenth-grade reading level, but it was summer school, after all. summer school is, what, ten weeks long? we took probably five on the book, ended up watching the movie, and had a test question that asked how something would have turned out differently had not (significant plot point and spoiler) happened.

well, see, that's the thing--in the book, it didn't. this led me to strongly suspect that he hadn't finished the book, either. so I wrote a very long, very detailed answer (I write fast), and ended it with, "because that's what happened in the book." (needless to say, I got an A on that test!)

he was, as I recall, fairly sexist, too, and had a hard time reconciling that with the fact that I was the best person in the class at the subject. probably smarter than he was, too; it wouldn't have taken much.

I didn't learn anything all summer, and given my existing educational level, not surprising--but the kids who'd failed because they weren't any good at it didn't learn anything, either. I know; I'd known one of them for years, and he told me so.

now, that's a bad student teacher, and someone who shouldn't be teaching. (we were, to my understanding, his third try, too, and his last shot. this means that, wherever he is, he's not teaching now.) there is no way on Earth that "a lot of little things" is half as bad as that.

have you talked to your advisor yet? keep us posted.

[farmerjumperdon]

Just late chiming in on an earlier tangent about teachers as tyrants versus teachers as leaders.

I am a strong supporter of the Montessori methodology. I've seen it in action over the course of the last 8 years, and read quite a bit about it's history and principles. From everything I've seen, it is a fantastic method of learning (no accident that I did not say teaching). Education is about learning, teaching just happens to be one of the most common and efficient methods of learning. (No insult intended towards teachers, just that I learned a lot of valuable things in life with no teacher present).

Point is, Montessori is probably the antithesis of tyranny, and produces (IMO) an extremely positive learning environment. It just flat out produces results. Children schooled in this method rarely have disciplinary problems and almost never drop out, at least nowhere near the rate of traditional methods. They have Guides as opposed to teachers. They are allowed to learn at their own pace (within reason) which works fine because children WANT to learn. Wanting to learn is totally natural for all kids, which makes you wonder why it goes away for so many.

Believing teachers need to be tyrants to any degree is very old school. If a kid needs a tyrant for a teacher in order to learn, the problem is the kid and should be corrected. Teachers who feel they need to be a tyrant should find another job. Systems that force teachers to be tyrants need to be corrected.

The most important thing I learned from the couple tyranical teachers I had was to avoid tyranical teachers. They also provided an excellent behavioral model of how not to be.

[Jpax2003]

Just late chiming in on an earlier tangent about teachers as tyrants versus teachers as leaders.

So, you want self-deterministic and democratic teaching? Interesting.

[Maksutov]

space cadet,

I'd suggest you consider the various positive posts that have been made here. A lot of good ideas and approaches. I'd ignore the remarks of the poster who thinks teachers should be mini-Hitlers.

But remember even the best advice offered here is by persons who only know you by your writings. That must be taken into consideration.

Instead, I'd suggest primarily follow the advice of the person who knows you better than anyone else: you. Think for yourself and decide what's best.

But an important component of making an informed decision here is finding out all the details re how you were treated. Without that you have some missing pieces that will keep the jigsaw puzzle from being completed.

One thing that applies to most people is "Don't lose sight of your dreams." If your heart is set on it, things have a way of working out, even if it takes a large application of perseverance and determination.

Best of luck.

-Mak.

[Jpax2003]

I'd suggest you consider the various positive posts that have been made here. A lot of good ideas and approaches. I'd ignore the remarks of the poster who thinks teachers should be mini-Hitlers.

That was uncalled for. Why is it that I can't have an opinion different from everyone else without people making a brouhaha about it? How does suggesting that teachers should exercise ultimate authority in their classroom with regard to educational activities and behavior imply that they should be genocidal warmongerers?

[Maksutov]

I'd suggest you consider the various positive posts that have been made here. A lot of good ideas and approaches. I'd ignore the remarks of the poster who thinks teachers should be mini-Hitlers.

That was uncalled for. Why is it that I can't have an opinion different from everyone else without people making a brouhaha about it? How does suggesting that teachers should exercise ultimate authority in their classroom with regard to educational activities and behavior imply that they should be genocidal warmongerers?
Let's look at the record.

In previous posts JPax2003 wrote:

Children will respect authority when their authorities act in a way that demands respect.

...obediance should also be demanded either way...

Or perhaps command is the better word.

I think teachers are in the business of tyranny.

The ability to exercise free will to choose to follow a teacher/leader is an adult trait...Children aren't simply little versions of adults.

I didn't see my teachers cry when they were wearing their teacher mask, that's the point.

So, you want self-deterministic and democratic teaching?
You're right. What I wrote was inappropriate. It shouldn't have been so mild.

The advice you provided is very appropriate...if space cadet were preparing for a career as the warden of a prison or leader of a totalitarian government.

[Jpax2003]

Was it in BABB or FWIS that there was a thread about the overuse of the term "nazi"? I don't think invoking the name of Hitler is much different. At any rate, I don't think you answered the question. Those quotations only prove that I am consistent, not that I am incorrect. Or were you responding to the brouhaha question? I don't understand why you are suddenly interested in deriding me.

[Tunga]

SpaceCadet

If you have the soul of a teacher, then become a teacher.
Life can have a lot of hard knocks. Learn to deal with them. Overcoming obstacles is one of the greatest learning tools. Those lessons stay with you a lifetime.

[Moose]

Mak, speaking as someone who only rarely finds much common ground with Jpax's views, and none at all with his views in this instance, I have to say that the comparison to Hitler was well over the top and a pretty clear Godwinizing of this thread.

I feel you owe Jpax an apology, an honest one.

I would also ask that you both dial it back a few notches. I'd hate to see Phil be forced to intervene on regulars again.

[farmerjumperdon]

Jpax, I gotta agree with Mak - your posts say a lot about your attitude regarding education. When you say that teachers are in the business of tyranny; that's pretty strong stuff. I think they are in the business of education.

Maybe if you look at it from the perspective of the intended result - educated kids - you might see the business as being about education instead of tyranny.

Teaching is one way in which kids get educated, and tyranny is one way in which a teacher can maintain order. All kids are born with an inate hunger for information. If something happens along the way that causes a child to need a tyrannical leadership figure before they will bother to learn - then the problem is the kid. Better to remove them to an environment where the problem can be corrected than to create a system of tyrant teachers that negatively impact the learning environment just to address the few kids who for one reason or another decided to disengage from the learning process. Once you go down that path, things snowball. Tyrant teachers cause loss of interest, cause need for more tyrants, more loss of interest in learning, and so on and so forth.

I do understand the need to maintain order, but there are other ways to do it. You should visit a school that uses Montessori or similar alternative methods. A lot of schools have borrowed elements from them. The kids, who come from a variety of backgrounds, exhibit some amazing characteristics after only a short time in the environment. The kids really want to learn (which is only natural) and learn with more depth and understanding than with the usual methods; not to mention with greater speed.

As far as children as little adults. Kids actually respond most positively when treated as much as possible like little adults. There are of course limits, for health & safety reasons. But in our house, there are accomodations for kids everywhere. There are at least half a dozen stools around so they can use the sinks, get in the fridge and cabinets, reach almost all shelves, etc. It is their house too. There is very little they are not allowed to do. I'll stop and just say check it out. Go to any Montessori website and see what one method of non-tyrant led learning is all about.

[farmerjumperdon]

I didn't think the Hitler comment was that bad. We all know he did not mean Jpax is a genocidal maniac. People toss it out without that being the meaning. No different than if you call someone a Houdini. The person does not really mean you could do all the Houdini tricks. If I say someone is militaristic (almost did during this thread, glad I didn't), it doesn't mean I assign to them ALL the characteristics of being in the military.

That out of the way, I want to see what ads pop at the bottom if I use Houdini again.

[R.A.F.]

Totally off topic...:)

Was it in BABB or FWIS...

Which reminds me...I've posted a question to you, Jpax2003, over at FWIS...on the firefight forum...

[R.A.F.]

I didn't think the Hitler comment was that bad. We all know he did not mean Jpax is a genocidal maniac.


Jpax was talking about teachers being in the business of tyranny...Hitler was a tyrant...Mac spoke of "turning out" mini Hitlers.

I don't see the problem...

If Maksutov had stated that pax was a "Hitler" then that would be a problem...but that's not what he said, is it.

[farmerjumperdon]

Thanks for catching that RAF. The gist of my statements still stand, but yes, I knew he called tyrant teachers mini-Hitlers, not Jpax, but slipped in my attempt to get my ideas down quickly.

:oops:

[Melusine]

We called our chemistry teacher part of the Gestapo....she was.

People ought to relax about the use of words, and not take things so literally when it's apparent from the context how it's intended. It really makes for dull reading otherwise. These analogies are perfectly acceptable

I agree with Mak's comment, though if Jpax thinks teachers are in the business of tyranny, so be it, that's his opinion, but it didn't help me in chemistry. Authority and tyranny are two different things.

[farmerjumperdon]

To clarify: Yes, there are teachers in the business of tyranny, and they should be removed post haste along with the kids who can only learn with a tyrant standing over their shoulder.

[Maksutov]

R.A.F., farmerjumperdon, and Melusine are on target. The critiques were directed at the post content, not the poster.

More specifically, in companies where I've worked, overbearing, pompous, dictatorial supervisors and managers have been typically referred to as "mini-s". "Mini" and "Little" are the most popular prefixes re this usage. Heck, even Hollywood got in the act. Anyone remember a film called [i]Little Caesar starring Edward G. Robinson?

R.A.F., farmerjumperdon, and Melusine, thank you for your comprehension and saving me some typing. :D

[Jpax2003]

People ought to relax about the use of words, and not take things so literally when it's apparent from the context how it's intended. It really makes for dull reading otherwise. These analogies are perfectly acceptable.

Good advice. I wonder why people took my words so literally, when the context should have implied "not to be walked over" but to maintain discipline and a proper educational environment. I could be wrong, but I really don't think 6-12 year olds can structure their own multi-child learning environment.

For the record, I didn't think Mak was referring to me as Hitler.

R.A.F. Is the firefight thread related to this one? I might think that the admin might start getting tired of people moving fights from here to there for no reason. If I say something on that board that you want to fight about then that may not be an issue, but I think that starting arguments somewhere else because you can't say it here is poor form. I'll go look at the post, but I can't guarantee that I will respond with vigor as I can't imagine how anything I have said here would make someone so angry as to not be able to respond here.

[farmerjumperdon]

Actually the self-paced learning of Montessori usually begins at 2 years 9 months. And that is only because the schools don't want to deal with potty training. (The kids need to be able to consistently use the bathroom on their own before being accepted for enrollment). We began providing the materials to our daughter at 18 months, and she was writing by the time she was 2. And I mean writing - nice neat cursive. People would freak when they came over and she'd be sitting there writing full-blown stories that made sense. Sometimes the tense or punctuation was a little off, but what the heck. You really ought to check out one of their websites. Truly amazing stuff.

[space cadet]

Hey everyone, please don't bicker. :( The last thing I wanted to start here was more controversy. I just wanted some insight, that's all. Thank you for those of you who offered your help and support.

Anyway, I'm still trying to get to the bottom of the situation. I thought it was really fishy that my cooperating teacher gave me such a good score for midterms, but for the final evaluation she totally flunked me. One of my friends in the education department apparently thought so to, because when she confronted her about it, it eventually came out that she was told by the university to give me a bad score. I don't know for certain which of my professors would have told her to do that, but I suspect that it's the same guy who seemed so eager to get me to change my major. He's in charge of the summer education program, and he's also my professor for "teaching science."

Anyway, I'm not entirely sure how to fix things at this point, but I'm sure I'll figure out something.