Dark Sky Nightmare

[jsc248]

:( Hi All,
I'm touching on a subject that I've covered before, but I'm seriously getting very angry about. I live in the outskirts of Liverpool here in the U.K. and I am both tired and fed-up of trying to get something done about the street lighting in my area. I have tried local and national government but all to no avail. Has anyone out there got any suggestions that I could try, I would be most grateful for the help.
Thanks all!!
jsc248.

[damienpaul]

Unfortunately, talking to the authorities can be useless, you may want to consider trips to less affected areas.

[Manchurian Taikonaut]

yeah much of Europe is going out of control

http://www.balticuniv.uu.se/beids/LightPollution.jpg

its also a big problem in the US but its getting worse like Neon covered Seoul and Osaka .




There are a number of active groups on the subject, but in order to get your message across you should also point out some other issues


Contact lobby groups in the EU and see if they can put outside pressure on England to consider an alternative.

Point out other issues. Such as the attention that has been directed toward the environmental and economic costs of light pollution. Almost 30 percent of all outdoor nighttime lighting ends up in the night sky, which is equivalent to almost a billion kilowatt-hours of electricity, more than the individual electrical production of many countries. Question have been asked like how does light pollution harm the environment?

Light pollution harms the environment the Urban sky glow hinders professional and amateur astronomy and deprives the public of its view of the night sky.
The bulk of Coal, oil, and nuclear fuels are mined and consumed in large amounts merely to light the night sky. The efforts spent on unproductive lighting of the night sky arc not available for more worthwhile uses for us. The fossil fuels burned to produce harmful lighting also contribute to air and water pollution. Thus, it seems rather short-sighted for the country to allow its dark skies to be senselessly degraded by the consumption of non-renewable resources whose gathering and burning contribute nothing to the public good but further stress the environment an the earth.

Light pollution cost the community. It directly costs the country millions of dollars and Euro a year in unnecessary electricity charges, in addition to the associated environmental harm from the mining and burning of fossil fuels to generate this wasted electricity.

have a look at darksky . org and AOLs light pollution Internet Links, there are groups in Australia, Germany, the USA and many other places.

http://www.darksky.org/links/enviro.html

http://members.aol.com/ctstarwchr/LiteLynx.htm

You might find a group close to Liverpool

[astromark]

:rolleyes: [FONT=Courier
[/I] Light polution is not going to go away.. get over it. So what can you do? Involve the local print medea ( news papers ) aspecialy if impending local alections. works a treat if they think there's votes in it... Angle your argument from a cost efficancy program... shielded lighting can be much cheaper than aluminating the under body of aircraft... and so on. Put together a photo comparison of good and bad lighting. and be persistant. good luck. :ph34r:

[DanCoy]

Here in Fort Bend County Texas we attacked the Light Polution issue on an economic basis. Full cut off fixtures and Sodium bulbs are much cheaper to buy and operate than the Mercury Light bombs folk around here have been using. The argument swayed the County Court and we now have a Light Ordinance. You might try to attack the problem that way.

[morddred]

Hi There is the campaign for dark skies in the uk.. dont know their web site but I am sure a search will find it.
I once took my telescope round to a friends house, he wanted to know what all the fuss was about. I set my scope up in the dark then he went and put his 50000000000 watt outside light on so we could see better!!!! I think its a case of educating people.



Fergal

[camkill]

It would be nice if at least we could have an annual celebration, whereby all street lighting was shut off for a time, but it would probably result in an increased crime rate ( or am I just pessimistic ? ). So many city dwellers today have no idea what the sky really looks like, it's such a shame.

I remember being awestruck when I had my first real view of the sky during a powercut, I would even say it was a life changing event.

[kashi]

Are there light pollution maps like that for other countries? I'd be very curious.

[damienpaul]

Well a bit of searching has yielded a couple nice maps including Texas (http://users3.ev1.net/~glennlray/Astro/lightpollution.html) and a few links from The Dark Sky Association (http://www.darksky.org/) that may yield some maps.

Incredible stuff!

[Manchurian Taikonaut]

good links damienpaul

here are some more pictures

http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0108/18lig...pollute/usa.jpg (http://spaceflightnow.com/news/n0108/18lightpollute/usa.jpg)
such Energy being wasted and zapped into the sky
http://www-kpno.kpno.noao.edu/glaspey/KP/L...21_01light1.jpg (http://www-kpno.kpno.noao.edu/glaspey/KP/Lighting/Images/8_21_01light1.jpg)



Korea and Japan
http://www.pietro.org/images/LightPollutionJP.jpg
is it any wonder all those star gazers are buying homes in Hawaii

[Tom2Mars]

I'm trying to do my part in reducing light pollution by leaving the planet. B)

[Lomitus]

Hi all, just wanted to toss my $.02 worth in here....

I live just outside of downtown Lorain, Ohio...I have a steel mill on one side of me and a Ford plant just a few miles off on the other, as well as a Super-Kmart (that bugger lights the sky for miles alone). There's also a street light smack dab in front of my house. In addition, I'm in a residential neighborhood and a rather poor one at that. I have a number of neighbors who have "street light" like garage lights that are on all the time for security purposes. Needless to say, most nights I have trouble seeing the Big Dipper from my back yard.

Now here's my conflict....
In this neighborhood, I can't really blame people for having those bright security lights...I in fact have 3 high powered flood lights myself mounted outside. Basically this neighborhood sucks -bad-. One of my neighbor's got the crap beat out of him and was put in the hospital about a month ago just for trying to chase some young black youths out of his back yard (4 to 1, the poor guy didn't even stand a chance). I've had mucho vandolism occur over the 14 years I've lived here...2 car windows broken, property destroyed, Halloween decorations stolen right of my front porch and about 2 months ago I had some little kids...like 5-8 years old smash out my front porch storm door window....obviously the police don't care and have the time they won't even bother to respond to complaints (thats another bad issue in and of itself). Another thing is simply, again this is a very poor neighborhood...even if it wasn't so violent, it's not like I could just ask my neighbor's to replace all their out door lighting simply because I bought a telescope! Now obviously, I'd love to blow up the steel mill, the Ford plant and burn the Super-K to the ground, but I'm really caught on the issue of security lighting here.

Maybe someone here will get some use out of some of this, but what I've done is simply set up tarps on my upstairs back porch to block out the surrounding lights when I'm using my scope. Clearly this doesn't do anything about the washed out sky, but it actually does help. On a good clear night we were still able to see the Ring Nebula in Lyra with a 5" Orion Mak when it was right over head (barely, but we did see it). Another tip is to check with local parks and such. I've made arrangments with Findley State Park here in Ohio to use the park "after hours". In fact they were very kind about it...the park closes at 11:00 pm but they said they do welcome "legitamate recreational activities" after hours. This has worked out well for me as the park is only about 27 miles from my house and isn't really a -major- drive.

I'm afraid I have to agree...light pollution isn't going away any time soon unfortunatly. We still live in a world where money talks the loudest and governments tend to not listen to anything else. The only good solution I can really think of is for someone to come up with a sky friendly lighting system that can be used by places such as department stores, shopping centers, manufacturing plants etc and make it more affordable then contemporary lighting systems. Maybe its time to start putting pressure on GE and Sylvainia to start pushing such products. If it's cheaper then people will be more inclined to buy and use such systems. The only other thing I can really think of that would help is simply public awareness. Many, if not most people who arn't into astronomy really aren't aware of how bad the problem is (I certainly wasn't). I could be wrong here, but it seems to me that most people look up at night, say, "wow...theres the big dipper" and then proceed on their way to Burger King. Unless your really outdoors alot at night...activities such as camping or fishing for instance, then your not really inclined to look up for much more then a brief glance. I guess what I'm saying here is that if there is more world wide public awareness, then perhaps there might be more inclination to do something about it. Ranting about it on an astronomy forum is fine and good, but John Doe and Joe Smith that live a few houses down need to know about the problem too....and why its so important! So here's my last suggestion....I'm sure many of us are on other internet forums as well that are unrelated to astronomy....-tell people- about light pollution and why its such a problem. Tell your friends and neighbors. Talk to people at local astronomy groups and see if you can band a group together to take it to the media. Maybe even setup a protest in the local Super-K parking lot or a local shopping mall (something like that is bound to get media attention!). Most of all...be prepaired with solutions! Once you explain why light pollution is such a problem, the first thing people may ask is "yea, thats all fine and good, but what can I do about it?" Be perpaired with info on sky friendly lighting (and where to obtain it).

Good Luck to all!
Bright Blessings & Gentle Breezes,
Jim

[Betelgeuse]

This message is for the first person who actually brought this topic up.

I live in Wales - in a small town and fortunatley light pollution doesn't have much effect on me observing the night sky.

However, if I want to see the night sky properly, I still have to travel 10 miles into the countryside where no cars or street lights are in the way of observation!

I really do feel sorry for you and I am disappointed that there aren't any campaigns going to help with this light pollution problem - why have so many orange, unattractive streetlights when you can have so much naturaly light in all of it's glory?

I would like to know if you have a telescope, because, observing through a telescope can help block out much of this unwanted light - so I hear! But, once again, are you able to see any stars at all?

I know I'm not much help and can't come up with many solutions, but I'd like to let you know that I am backing you up in this matter!

[jsc248]

:D Thanks Rigel,
It's nice to know that there's somone "just up the road" who understands! I live on the outskirts of Liverpool and have a beautiful view of the night sky from my back garden, I can see at least 90% of the night sky at any given time. It's just such a shame about the pollution, baybe I should find out where you are and come there to observe, it sounds ideal.
Thanks
jsc248

[xXxDarkSkyNitexzxXx]

i live in singapore which is also badly affect by light pollution. singapore will never off their street lamps at night. I dunnoe why even there is its a black out. There was one major black out this year 2004 at singapore 2/3 of singapore was dark. That time i did nothing but ran downstairs to gaze at the sky that was singapore first major black out in decades. Its the first time i seen the beautiful sky in singapore. Hmmxz sometimes if u get to see the stars everyday u will not get to treasure what u see. Like me i probaly see beautiful nite skies in like decades this will make me have a deep impression on what i see and treasure that moment.
~LetNatureTakeItsCourse~ :D :P :lol: ;)

[Betelgeuse]

Every opportunity you get to observe the night sky in all it's glory should be really lapped up! It's amazing what just one little street light can do to observing the sky to it's limit. Shame really.

[jsc248]

:D I couldn't agree more Rigel, but it's like banging your head against a brick wall trying to change things!
jsc248.

[Betelgeuse]

Have you come across any establishment that tries to contribute to lowering the amount of street lights or whatever to decrease the quantity of light pollution?

[jsc248]

<_< Not yet Rigel. I have tried local and national government oficials but no-one seems to want to help!
jsc248.

[Algenon the mouse]

Originally posted by Rigel@Aug 26 2004, 06:31 PM
Have you come across any establishment that tries to contribute to lowering the amount of street lights or whatever to decrease the quantity of light pollution?
When I was 20 I lived in a small town in Germany. This villiage had goals of reducing polution of many kinds, including light pollution. Everyone turned off their lights at night. Though it was scary trying to walk home in the woods from the train station at night, it was worth it. I saw the milky way for the first time there. I lived in LA before that where you are lucky to see two stars in the sky at night. I have no idea if the village is still comitted to this goal. Crime was not a problem since everyone basically knew everyone else...

I now live in Seattle and one of the goals I have is to make sure the students can see the night stars so they can appreciate what we are losing with the increasing number of cities and light pollution. (Many of the students have never been camping before). I always take them on a night hike during the week we are at environmental camp. To see their expressions is awesome.

I like the idea of maybe suggesting that once or twice a year we shut the lights off. Maybe if more people could see what we see they would see our point...see?

[KeiZka]

Oh, if anyone looked at that light pollution pic, notice Estonia, because there's almost none light pollution in mid-Estonia. That's the place where I'd go... (mainly because I'm finnish)

Light pollution has gotten out of hand here as well. I live in downtown in city of 10,000 inhabitants, and view could be more clear. Thank god, for I live in agricultural city, so pollution is really smaller in outskirts and neighbouring agricultural communities. It's just that I don't have driving license.... Doh!

[Betelgeuse]

Light pollution is surely enough an ever growing problem. Night skies in the smallest towns with very little street lamps are being impaired on. It's a shame really. As I pointed out before, you have to go up into the heart of the countryside to get the best view and for everyone that's not possible.

I think there should be some sort of establishment against all this light pollution! But, as jsc248 explained - no one wants to help! Dead annoying!

[Gneiss]

As someone else mentioned earlier....

In the UK there is the Campaign for Dark Skies (http://www.dark-skies.org/). They have representative all around the country who are often in touch with sypathetic councillors and MPs.

It has to be said that you stand a better chance if you have a problem with a specific site in your area rather than just general light polution.

I'm lucky enough to live in North Cambridgeshire, surrounded by dark (for the UK) countryside. My girlfriends sister also owns a farm where by biggest concern is to avoid falling in a ditch because it is so b***** dark :rolleyes: