the X factor

[jest]

In my opinion (in other words, I'm Just Saying), every time a media body such as CNN or another network news cast mentions anything about astronomy, they do so with barely enough information to actually make sure everyone understands how preliminary it really is. I seem to recall a few years ago hearing of a report about the discovery of planet x. Actually it was probably over ten years ago now but I can't recall exactly. It was actually Astronomy Magazine if I remember right. This object was smaller than Pluto and was figured to be an object of the Oort Cloud, which used to be theorized as being a cloud of cometary objects in an orbit outside of Pluto's orbit. It turned out to be a fairly insignificant body.

Here's what bothers me. People (I have to admit even my dad) hear these reports and their imagination goes absolutely off the charts. "A tenth planet?! This is unorthodox! There must be people on it, or maybe it's not supposed to be there in the first place?! It's not right. What will we do?"

Put that sort of hysteria into the hands of a conspiracy theorist, and the sparks fly.

No offense is meant to those who go out there and create all this hysteria, as they may not realize what they're doing to people, but I believe that this is a form of terrorism. Going around and telling, TELLING, people that in May 2003, 90% of the population on Earth will die because of a planet (that doesn't exist) which is scheduled to make a pass by Earth causing all sorts of mayhem. This is creating terror. Remember those guys who walked up and down the streets saying "The end is near"? They were harmless because they weren't on the Internet writing up elaborate (though flawed) stories about what they think will happen. It's amazing to think that this sort of thing is actually very old; not new in the least.

But like others, I am not sending out a personal attack against anyone who believes in these hoaxes. What I want to say to those who don't understand the reality of things, is this: Before believing something this incredible, ask someone whose career involves the study of these very things (planets, stars, physics). Don't put people at risk for something that is clearly not proven.

My only wish is that most of the people who currently believe in this alledged future catastrophe end up realizing the hilarity of it all and just let it go. It's ok to admit you were wrong, I've spent most of my life admitting to being wrong about something at some point, though usually something insignificant compared to this sort of thing.

[GrapesOfWrath]

On 2002-11-07 12:26, jest wrote:
No offense is meant to those who go out there and create all this hysteria, as they may not realize what they're doing to people, but I believe that this is a form of terrorism.
Welcome to the board, jest, but I think the extension of terrorism to "nontraditional" values can be taken too far. Is saying "Life is short, we'll all die eventually," a form of terrorism?

[jest]

I can understand your view, in fact I suppose it is too extreme to use the term "terrorism" with regards to someone who makes a threat to someone else. I disagree that saying "we all die eventually" is a form of terrorism since we already know (apart from those who believe they will live forever) that we'll eventually die from old age, at best. I think the reason why I said it seems like a form of terrorism is that people are being told they will die from someone that isn't factual. Example - someone from Al Qaeda stating that they will attack a certain target. I could be wrong (I'm always one to admit being wrong) but to me that puts terror into the hearts of those who could be affected by the threat. To me, something that seems made up (some would agree that at some point the whole Planet X thing was made up) which makes people worry about their immediate future (some build bomb shelters or the like), that's terror. I believe that since 9/11, the word Terror has smacked us in the face whereas before, I don't think most people in North America in general really understood what terrorism really meant to them. The city where I live *could* be a terrorist target since we have so many refineries in the area, but so far terrorism hasn't affected me on a personal level.

I'm probably just rambling here but I don't think I'll actually take back my statement about doomsday people creating terror. I will, however, say that there is a difference in the way that it's being broadcast. A terrorist doesn't care about your life, as far as I'm concerned. The doomsday people probably do care about your life, but their misleading information is causing a similar reaction with those who don't realize what's going on.

I trust I'm more understood now with that clarification. Thanks for bringing it up though, it's good that someone prompted me to make myself more clear instead of just randomly plugging a "heavy" word.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jest on 2002-11-07 14:28 ]</font>

[GrapesOfWrath]

On 2002-11-07 14:23, jest wrote:
The doomsday people probably do care about your life, but their misleading information is causing a similar reaction with those who don't realize what's going on.
And they're not shooting and bombing people. They got enough problems as it is, without being called terrorists. Just look at the Heaven's Gate (http://www.heavensgatetoo.com/) folk.

[jest]

You're correct. The terrorism that we know involves guns, bombs, and box cutters (more recently). The actual definition of terror though, is the inspiration of fear. Putting fear into peoples' lives. But then again terrorism is also quite successful. Perhaps I'm totally wrong in calling it terrorism since I don't think too many people are scared about this Planet X. How about that?

/phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif

[GrapesOfWrath]

Alan Greenspan causes me to be terrified, but I don't consider him a terrorist. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

I looked up terrorism in Ame.Her.Dic., and here's their definition:
ter·ror·ism n. The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

I just don't think that the Planet X folk fit the definition.

[jest]

I see the problem. I used the Webster dictionary... Perhaps too vague. Ok, without actually backpedalling (because a backpedaller will try to flip-flop and say they didn't mean it that way), let's change "terrorist" to just "terror." Instilling terror on people isn't cool. I honestly believe that, though they may not mean it this way (I don't know what they're thinking), they are adding terror into the lives of those who don't know much about astronomy. You can convince a lot of people, without the use of images, that they have officially discovered that there is a small civilization of 2-foot-tall people living on the far side of the moon, and explain to them that we haven't seen them yet because we only passed by the back side of the moon a couple times back in the Apollo days, and didn't explore it close up. Even better, this person making the statement can be doing so based on information that he thought he heard somewhere. Obviously this isn't terrorism. It's not even terror. Terrible story, yes. To walk up to someone and tell them, "In May of 2003, a planet will pass by Earth killing off 90% of the population," big deal. I'm sure that person will laugh at them. When you get a large enough group of people banded loosely together telling a similar story, that is where terror can take root. People tend to panic when uncertanty enters the picture. A big mob of people being controlled using a firehose always causes panic because they don't know if they're about to get hurt of if they're going to escape without injury. Planet X is that cosmic firehose. Well, except that it doesn't appear to exist. But if it were real, you can just imagine how that would strike terror in the hearts of everyone. "Will I be in the other 10% that survives? What about my family? What will happen?" That's terror.

A co-worker just made a good comment. War of the World. We all remember that little radio show. I'm positive they didn't mean to cause so much panic and terror when they broadcast that show. Just like the PXers, they probably don't even realize the terror they could be causing.

So like I said, let's take that first post of mine and take it for what it is, a good idea except for one point which I am now admitting is not entirely accurate, which is terrorism. We'll leave the terrorism to those with the weapons in their own hands, not the weapon which is supposedly Planet X (and we don't know who would use Planet X to destroy this planet - certainly isn't anyone from here).

[Psychostar]

Okay, I know this couldn't happen, but someone COULD have a magnet ray thingy that shoots a single ray of a magnet forward so strong, everything caught by it, even if it only contains 0.000000000001% of any metal attractable by a magnet, would be pulled forward, and if it was on Earth in a desert where no one would know... well, let's just say if it was possible, Earth would have a one way ticket to oblivion.

[jest]

Yup, in Star Trek speak that's possible. But I have a feeling no one would really bother. Now, would we call that person a terrorist or induct them into the Darwin Awards for killing themselves in a very creative way? hehe..

[Psychostar]

They should do both. Then they'd have a new (although stinky and slightly dead) member or something...

_________________
"Down with the cotton gin!!! Down with the cotton gin!!!" Poor Mr.Dickson... Getting more and more senile every day...

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Psychostar on 2002-11-07 16:34 ]</font>

[jest]

I would also like to point out, based on blowing things out of proportion as I mentionned in the first post, that Mr Hazelwood provided an example of what I meant regarding imagination.

I was reading up on what our Bad Astronomer had to say about Mr Hazelwood, and stumbled across something that actually did fool me until I read what the image was that I saw before me (then I began laying the boot upon myself). The image of the Jovian moon Io. It just seemed to me that Mr Hazelwood's imagination was on auto-detect when he saw the "tail" behind the "planet" which was factually a volcanic eruption on Io. Ok, in this case it wasn't something he saw on the news and instantly came to a conclusion based on what he was told by the news. This was something that was e-mailed to him, whether it was a cruel joke or something that someone else truly believed was what he thought it was. Many of us have had e-mails sent to us like that, some of us believed what we read or saw, some of us tossed it. He was unfortunate enough to make something of the image, but I guess we were fortunate enough to have a Bad Astronomer quickly make the diving catch.

So why do they just take random bits of knowledge and construct "facts" based on nothing? What do they get out of it? (Seinfeld) "What's the DEAL with Planet X?" If he or his sort of thinkers are warning us to head for the hills (see "terror"), how is heading for the hills going to save us from a bloody huge planet?

[Smaug]

On 2002-11-07 14:23, jest wrote:
I can understand your view, in fact I suppose it is too extreme to use the term "terrorism" with regards to someone who makes a threat to someone else. I disagree that saying "we all die eventually" is a form of terrorism since we already know (apart from those who believe they will live forever) that we'll eventually die from old age, at best.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jest on 2002-11-07 14:28 ]</font>


I would have lived longer if it weren't for that terrible Bilbo. He had to go and tell that thrush my secret! Then Bard with his black arrow, that reallly hurt!!!

P.S. Elves are immortal

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Smaug on 2002-11-09 13:55 ]</font>

[Kaptain K]

P.S. Elves are immortal
Only in the sense that they don't die of old age. They can be killed.

[Psychostar]

Actually, some elves can reasemble themselves from their broken body parts and/or their blood has magical powers that, whenever put on sacred ground, can grow into the elf. Well, in... ummm... could you call that a theory since it can't be proven??? I have no idea, but thats what I read.

[Smaug]

On 2002-11-09 16:11, Kaptain K wrote:
P.S. Elves are immortal
Only in the sense that they don't die of old age. They can be killed.



Yeah, thats what I meant. Heh if they were completely immortal then they wouldn't have the problem with Sauron now would they?

[Kaptain K]

On 2002-11-09 21:17, Psychostar wrote:
Actually, some elves can reasemble themselves from their broken body parts and/or their blood has magical powers that, whenever put on sacred ground, can grow into the elf. Well, in... ummm... could you call that a theory since it can't be proven??? I have no idea, but thats what I read.

We are discussing the Elves of Tolkien's Middle Earth, not "fairies".

[Jerod S.]

Jest,
I realize I'll be among the minority here, but I tend to agree without reservation with your initial comments about the PX crowd essentially being 'terrorists'. Not terrorists in the sense that we in America are coming to understand the term (I.e.- someone with no regard for life of any kind with a chip on their shoulder about this or that who is willing to slaughter innocent civilians wholesale) in the post-9/11 world, but rather as 'psychological terrorists'. Spreading wild ruminations about even wilder assertions about still even more wild ideas about celestial objects that don't exist cruising by and destroying everyone and everything we know and love and cherish is a form of terrorism. "A rose by any other name..."
The mere fact that these highly manipulative, money-driven con artists are out there hocking a book and a video and God knows what all else in the waning months before their alleged doomsday scenario is extremely telling of the mentality involved. They care not one whit about the genuine suffering of humanity and any claims they make to the contrary are obviously outright lies. If one were truly concerned about an event coming to pass (celestial or otherwise) that would bear life-altering consequences for an entire civilization, one wouldn't be out increasing the amount on their bank statement and generally adding to their portfolio as a direct result of this concern. What would be the point? In other words, if this sort of thing were true, no amount of money would be sufficient to save anyone, let alone the individual masquerading as the lone voice in the wilderness.
If something (anything) of this magnitude were true, yes, any decent human being with a soul not sold to the devil would wish to educate others and put them on notice about a potential problem and encourage an open and honest public dialogue about finding some kind of a solution. But one wouldn't be seeking fame and fortune and misleading others into believing that one is some sort of self-appointed Messiah who will somehow show them the way through the troubled waters ahead. This is the behavior in operation with the leading elements of the PX proponents (I don't need to name names, do I?) and there is no disputing it. They have laid their cards on the table in hopes of profiting from the irrational fears of the uninformed majority. That they are using something so fantastic to terrify people speaks volumes about them and the sort of utter human (and I use that word advisedly) refuse they would most likely associate in clear conscience with. Again, it is a form of terrorism and there's no dressing up a wolf in sheep's clothing.
I take an exceptionally mild amount of offense (I know it wasn't personal so it's hard to get too bent out of shape about it) at one comment though. I'm paraphrasing here: 'Put something like this in the hands of conspiracy theorists and watch the sparks fly.' The reasons are as follows: The word "conspiracy" has become so perverted in American culture in the last ten years that it's absurd. It ONLY means "a plot, particularly an illegal one." The basis of our English word 'conspiracy' is the Latin word "conspiritu", which simply means "to breathe together."
Today, the word 'conspiracy' suddenly conjures up automatic assumptions about a firmly held belief in aliens who are eating us alive, UFOs that are abducting everyone and their mother, and a myriad of other pop culture imagery which may or may not -as I don't personally KNOW and there is always room for new discoveries- have any basis at all whatsoever in fact/reality. People are regularly convicted in our courts of criminal conspiracy and to the best of my knowledge nothing is ever said about aliens or UFOs in the overwhelming vast majority of those courtrooms prior to, during or following the conviction.
My point here is that not all "conspiracy theories" and/or their proponents are mired in lunacy like Leider and Hazelwood (Oops, I named names!). Let me give one prime contemporary example: Gulf War Syndrome. Right now, today, there are thousands of former American service men and women who were present in the Gulf in 1990-91 who are sick and dying (and some who have already passed away) from an officially as-yet-unnamed or admitted to illness. How many hearings have there been before House and/or Senate subcommittees in the past decade on the issue? But the conclusions reached officially by the The Pentagon are that "these people are suffering from a form of post-traumatic stress disorder that has manifest in the form of physical illness." That sounds good and well, but there is one minor problem that deflates that proposition: stress experienced by one person should not transmit physical and life-threatening ailments to other people living in close quarters with them (I.e.- spouses, children, etc.). Someone is conspiring (there's that dirty word again...) to keep something quiet at the cost of the health and well being of these Americans. But none of this matters because there are no conspiracies of any kind in the "real world."

P.S.- My penchant for drifting off-topic is further confirmed...

_________________
Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jerod S. on 2002-11-10 11:05 ]</font>

[nebularain]

On 2002-11-09 13:55, Smaug wrote:
Elves are immortal

But there is a price to pay for their immortality. Where mortals have the power to chose, and even change, their own destinies, Elves are bound to a destiny that has been chosen for them (was it ever mention "who" or "what" chose their destinies? My memory is fuzzy).


On 2002-11-10 10:58, Jerod S. wrote:
I realize I'll be among the minority here, but I tend to agree without reservation with your initial comments about the PX crowd essentially being 'terrorists'. Not terrorists in the sense that we in America are coming to understand the term (I.e.- someone with no regard for life of any kind with a chip on their shoulder about this or that who is willing to slaughter innocent civilians wholesale) in the post-9/11 world, but rather as 'psychological terrorists'.
I tend to agree with the concept of such things being "psychological terrorism," too. Fear is a very powerful tool when used effectively. Nations and kingdoms usually fall from within before they fall from without. Fortunately, the Planet X scare is only believed by a tiny percentage of the population, so it does not pose much of a threat - unless someone takes it too far and goes psycho and creates some kind of havoc on account of it.

_________________
"Once again, we find that science is a two-headed beast. One head is nice, it gives us aspirin and other modern conveniences,...but the other head of science is bad! Oh beware the other head of science, Arthur, it bites!" - The Tick vs. Dinosaur Neil

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2002-11-10 11:15 ]</font>

[Jerod S.]

Nebularain,
Are you mad??!! You're going to AGREE with me about my comment about 'psychological terrorists'?!? Has the whole world gone insane?!? Someone is agreeing with me again on this board?? I can't begin to conceive of the amount of therapy that is going to require! (Laughs hysterically)

_________________
Who is the more foolish? The fool, or the fool who follows?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Jerod S. on 2002-11-11 03:06 ]</font>

[Smaug]

On 2002-11-10 11:09, nebularain wrote:

On 2002-11-09 13:55, Smaug wrote:
Elves are immortal

But there is a price to pay for their immortality. Where mortals have the power to chose, and even change, their own destinies, Elves are bound to a destiny that has been chosen for them (was it ever mention "who" or "what" chose their destinies? My memory is fuzzy).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2002-11-10 11:15 ]</font>


However, they can give up their immortality. Take Arwen for instance, remember when she gives Aragorn her locket thingy?

[nebularain]

That was because she is actually part human. You see, her father, Elrond, is really half-elf/half-human, so he and his decendents are given the choice of the Elvish destiny or the human destiny. (I let someone else borrow my Lord of the Rings series, and she hasn't returned it yet /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_mad.gif so I can't look it up for clarity - sorry.)

OH, and in the original version (the book), the locket was actually given to Aragorn by Galadriel, who is Arwen's maternal grandmother.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2002-11-13 19:55 ]</font>

[Smaug]

Must be why they call him Elrond Half-Elven eh? I'm in the process of reading ROTK, and now that I think back, you're right galadriel gave him the thing. I can't wait to see how the battle of the Pelennor will look on the movie. Not to mention Helm's Deep.

[jest]

.........struggling to see the connection between elves and PlanetX, apart from fiction. Maybe I'm missing something.

[Kaptain K]

On 2002-11-13 22:51, jest wrote:
.........struggling to see the connection between elves and PlanetX, apart from fiction. Maybe I'm missing something.

No connection. LotR is much more believable /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

[nebularain]

And the movie is even more believable, too, if you get to see the Special Edition they just released with the deleted scenes added back in /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif .

[gethen]

Yes, yes, Arwen was part human, but Luthien, to whom she was compared was all elf and also gave up her immortality for love of a mortal man. See the Silmarillion. (Although, I think she might just have pined away after Beren died.)

[jest]

Hey guys? No offence, but you should probably "get a room" for this wizard stuff. Just that this post wasn't aimed at LotR's at all...

[jest]

On 2002-11-07 13:58, GrapesOfWrath wrote:

On 2002-11-07 12:26, jest wrote:
No offense is meant to those who go out there and create all this hysteria, as they may not realize what they're doing to people, but I believe that this is a form of terrorism.

Is saying "Life is short, we'll all die eventually," a form of terrorism?


Now that I think about it a bit more, no. Saying "Life is short, we'll all die eventually" is more of a fact. Spreading rumours, in some cases causing people to alter their otherwise normal lives to suit these rumours, is what I was getting at with my nasty label. It's all about facts vs. (science) fiction. Saying that 90% of the population, which gives ME a pretty good chance of dying in May 2003 (since I'm not lucky enough to likely make the 10% cut), is simply not a fact.

[nebularain]

On 2002-11-25 15:45, jest wrote:
Hey guys? No offence, but you should probably "get a room" for this wizard stuff. Just that this post wasn't aimed at LotR's at all...

Hey, jest, I can appreciate your sentiments, but threads veer off topic all the time. Just look at what happened to this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=1887&forum=2) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif .

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: nebularain on 2002-11-25 16:03 ]</font>

[jest]

On 2002-11-25 16:02, nebularain wrote:
Hey, jest, I can appreciate your sentiments, but threads veer off topic all the time. Just look at what happened to this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?topic=1887&forum=2) /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_lol.gif .


Veer? Geologically speaking, yes, it did.
[edited as follows]

No worries though.
_________________
jest

"Don't worry, everything is getting nicely out of control."

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: jest on 2002-11-25 16:07 ]</font>