Energy

[TiMeTell]

New Ideas on generating energy

I am looking for different types of ways in generating energy. Any kind of ideas would be wonderful.

Even crazy ideas would be nice.

The reason is because even the most crazy idea could work like when the light bulb was created. :P

[bigsplit]

Using the diurnal heating and cooling of the earth to expand and contract mercury and generate electricity. It would work best if the structure would follow the seasonal path of the sun maintaining the most direct sunlight. Further, a controlled environment with zero humidity that would allow maximum terrestrial cooling. But you could generate a lesser effect in your own back yard, mechanically I do not know how much energy you could produce. But, theoretically it is possible.

[ASEI]

Burying giant elongated solenoids in the ice of Ganymede, and using the moon as an anchor draw orbital energy via Jupiter's magnetic fields.

What is the magnetic field strength of Jupiter's field at Ganymede's orbit? Wasn't it enough that electromagnetic radiation washed the surface? Given the speed at which the moon orbits it's parent planet, this might not be all that infeasable.

[piersdad]

A long black pipe set up as a chimbley and as the sun heats it the air inside will rise up the tube and a turbine in the pipe will turn and create some power.

You have to realise that all energy on earth comes from the sun ether as stored energy ie oil or direct energy wind, waves, direct electric power, solare heating.

tidal power comes from the moon and theoretically using the tidal power will eventually slow the moon down. ( but we could still use it for a few thousand years)

another slow but sure power but small is using the changes in atmospheric pressure to perpetually drive a small thing such as a clock.

use earth currents thast are leakages from the power grid system where the system has an earth return power grid.
use widely spaced earthing rods with a wire betwen them ans a small current some times flows
thats my two cents worth

[Moseley]

Hi, Piersdad, you may find this remarkably similar to your long black pipe-dream:

http://www.visionengineer.com/env/solar_flue.shtml

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/08/21/aus_power_020821

is about the plan to build a bigger one in Australia, can't seem to find much info on how it is progressing so perhaps got scrapped in favour of a war.
Anyone who has been to Oz will testify what a truly sunny place it is and it seems eminently sensible to utilise that energy. I don't know what you could grow in the greenhouse though - it would be about 100 degrees C and presumably fairly windy.

[Nereid]

Find a way to induce dark matter to collide (in a carefully controlled, small region of space), extract the resulting energy - which is just gravitational converted to something else, hopefully useful.

[TiMeTell]

Originally posted by ASEI@Mar 30 2005, 07:57 PM
Burying giant elongated solenoids in the ice of Ganymede, and using the moon as an anchor draw orbital energy via Jupiter's magnetic fields.

What is the magnetic field strength of Jupiter's field at Ganymede's orbit? Wasn't it enough that electromagnetic radiation washed the surface? Given the speed at which the moon orbits it's parent planet, this might not be all that infeasable.
What you’re talking about sounds more like ZPE (Zero-Point Energy) even a little handful of ZPE could power New York for a full day. I am thinking there could possibly be a way to turn it into a battery a very high powered battery (rechargeable of course)
:unsure:

[Nereid]

Originally posted by TiMeTell+Apr 3 2005, 02:17 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TiMeTell @ Apr 3 2005, 02:17 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-ASEI@Mar 30 2005, 07:57 PM
Burying giant elongated solenoids in the ice of Ganymede, and using the moon as an anchor draw orbital energy via Jupiter's magnetic fields.

What is the magnetic field strength of Jupiter's field at Ganymede's orbit? Wasn't it enough that electromagnetic radiation washed the surface? Given the speed at which the moon orbits it's parent planet, this might not be all that infeasable.
What you’re talking about sounds more like ZPE (Zero-Point Energy) even a little handful of ZPE could power New York for a full day. I am thinking there could possibly be a way to turn it into a battery a very high powered battery (rechargeable of course)
:unsure: [/b][/quote]
TiMeTell, you might like to read up a bit on ZPE; ASEI's idea is pure classical physics, no different in principle from somehow setting up a giant cogwheel at the north pole of the Earth to drive a 'stationary' cogwheel; or some configuration of 'stationary' wires to move through the Earth's magnetic field. More practically, these are similar to various space tethers (http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap050328.html).

"ZPE" is a fascinating topic, but to extract energy from it - without some new physics - is somewhat of a challenge, wouldn't you say? I mean, it's not called zero point energy for nothing!

[piersdad]

It never ceases to amaze me at the lack of understanding of basic electrical theory,

In an experiment nasa tried to run a long wire from a satellite and generate power using the earths magnetic field as the source.

if you drag a wire through a magnetic field and extract energy from it then it will experience a magnetic drag (just like a car generator) and the satellite will slow down and de orbit.

In other words the energy required to lift the satellite into geo synchronous orbit will be used up by slowing the satellite down and bringing it crashing to earth

Moseley
thanks for the links

[imported_Traveller]

Install punchpads on the gas pumps for people to work out their frustrations with the price of gasoline and convert the impact energy into something useful.

[biknewb]

Build excercise equipment with electric generators instead of weights. Turns a gym into a powerplant.

(a google search for alternative energy gives more than 21 million hits. If you really have lots of free time, look into 'free energy'- 56 million hits)

regards

[wjwduke]

Hello Piersdad,
Your an electrical engineer, how about this idea? Consider the completely wasted kinetic energy potential of the millions of vehicles rolling on the highways of the world 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I once had this idea awhile back and bikneb's gym idea brought it to mind again; Remember the "old" (yes I'm dating myself) footpedal driven flywheel generators? Ok, lets install footpedals on the surface of the highways of the world; "lots" of them!

Picture a hinged narrow steel plate (the foot pedal) no more than 6 or 8 inches wide and it's length spanning the width of one or more lanes in a roadway. The hinged edge secured in place at just below the surface of the road and the opposite edge on an inclination of an optimum angle of degress above the road surface. Attached to the underside of this inclinded edge is a system of (pneumatics/ hydraulics?) with of course a "quick" position return mechanism. The plate (footpedal), which when driven over, provides the downward force to actuate the pneumatics/hydraulics creating the pressure necessary to drive a "flywheel" driven generator located along the roadside. This generated energy output could then be transfered via existing power lines along the highways, "backdoor approach?", into our local utility power stations or auxiliary stations, or maybe just floating waiting for its use in lieu of the power stations output (conservation) and even power the highway lighting systems.
These plates and the pneumatic/hydraulic mechanisms could be pre-fabricated and ready to set into a narrow shallow cut across the width of one or more lanes in the road. This should minimise road construction and traffic downtime and allow for easy removal and replacement for maintanance. The systems could be distributed almost infinately across the worlds highways and can be engineered into our future highway expansion projects.
As far as the commuters complaints, I see none. Driving over these plates at high speed should go virtually un-noticed and at lower (traffic jam) speeds, it should be like driving over a small speed bump in the road. My answer to that is; sorry folks, but we all have to pay a price for the sake of conservation. This implementation is the one I envisioned and maybe its not the right one but, I'm pretty sure the mechanical engineers will consider this a challenge at the undergraduate level of difficulty. As to the cost vs. energy benifit, I can't see it any greater, and probably much less than hydro or wind, however, the return on investment I leave to the engineers and bean counters. Of course, if civilization survives, there will come a time when surface driven crafts will eventually overcome gravity and take to the air, but probably not in our lifetime however, at the rate technollogy is going, maybe not.
Sorry for the long post, whatcha think?

Kashi, hows this for a conservation effort? Maybe you could put a bug in someones ear in your country. ;)

[wstevenbrown]

Piersdad:

The experiment that you describe was proof-of-concept only. In the full-blown version, electrically separate wires are extruded both in the up and down directions. The magnetic effects cancel, and the rocking movement caused by parts of the spacecraft being at different orbital radii, alternately leading and lagging resulted in a small net upward thrust. I believe the full-scale version was canceled for two reasons:

1) For a practical amount of power, the total cable length was more than 3 miles, which was at the extreme limit of tensile strength of materials at the time. No overdesign possible (then).

2) A vertical structure of that size was reckoned a hazard to navigation, out of proportion to its utility.

The concept worked. The full concept was proven sound.

If we ever get around to building a space elevator, we're going to have to figure out how to dissipate the vertical charge gradient gradually and usefully, at precisely the same rate that the leaky dielectric (our atmosphere and its radiation belt overcoat) does in our absence. If the charges were allowed to equalize suddenly (by stupid, fully-conductive construction), we would lose, not only the ozone layer, but the Van Allen Belts, the first line of defense against cosmic rays. ;) Best regards-- Steve

PS Working from old memories here-- I may have got some of the details wrong, and I can't remember the Project name, in order to check the facts. :huh:

[Jacques.Moret-Bailly]

Originally posted by Nereid@Apr 3 2005, 02:38 PM

"ZPE" is a fascinating topic, but to extract energy from it - without some new physics - is somewhat of a challenge, wouldn't you say? I mean, it's not called zero point energy for nothing!
Unhappily, the mean value of the ZPE was found by Nernst using thermodynamics... and all attempts to find energy breaking the second law of thermodynamics fail !

[piersdad]

Your an electrical engineer, how about this idea? Consider the completely wasted kinetic energy potential of the millions of vehicles rolling on the highways of the world 24 hours a day 7 days a week. I once had this idea awhile back and bikneb's gym idea brought it to mind again; Remember the "old" (yes I'm dating myself) footpedal driven flywheel generators? Ok, lets install footpedals on the surface of the highways of the world; "lots" of them!

wjwduke

When designing electric cars i had to keep the rolling resistance of the road/ tires to a minimum.
and that meant the harder the road the better,
a very heavy truck on a tarsealed road or shingle road will need more power than on a concrete highway
due to what you described.
as the tire moves over the road it deflects the soft sealing downward a very small amount and this is disapated in heat.
What you describe would be equivalent of having a very soft road that would create drag on any car that went over it so the energy you retrieve from it would come from the vehicles travelling over it and eventually from their lower M P gallon of gass.

it would be like a road toll in gas consumption and you would not be populkar


wstevenbrown

The experiment that you describe was proof-of-concept only. In the full-blown version, electrically separate wires are extruded both in the up and down directions. The magnetic effects cancel, and the rocking movement caused by parts of the spacecraft being at different orbital radii, alternately leading and lagging resulted in a small net upward thrust

thanks for that info theres a lot of things we have not thought/ anticipated when thinking of new concepts

[Paul21]

Energy is generated when larger scales of interaction degerate to smaller ones. For instance you may consider water power station, transforming the energy of the falling water into electricity. You should read theory of interaction to know which is larger. Then you'll know everything. Think carefully if you can always say which is larger then
you'll know everthing.

[ASEI]

It never ceases to amaze me at the lack of understanding of basic electrical theory,

In an experiment nasa tried to run a long wire from a satellite and generate power using the earths magnetic field as the source.

if you drag a wire through a magnetic field and extract energy from it then it will experience a magnetic drag (just like a car generator) and the satellite will slow down and de orbit.


While it may not work without de-orbiting a sattelite, perhaps the Ganymede idea could work by the same principle. Theoretically, it would eventually de-orbit Ganymede, and in that sense it is "non-renewable", but the orbital energy of the entire moon is huge, so you can draw a whole whopping lot of energy out of it before it crashes into Jupiter.

So it's great for Ganymedians, but I guess it would be a bit of a trick to transport that power back to Earth. sigh.

[wjwduke]

Thanks for commenting Piersdad...I am not very good at elaborating but I think you missed the point. The fact remains that we "must" harness every single available potential to "conserve" and I truely believe the automobile is the biggest "waste" of kinetic potential at this time (and I do emphisize "waste")! The implementation of the mechanism described should be next to "zero" extra fuel consumption by the individual motorist given, that up to a hundred vehicles (x number of axles) per minute would be actuating the pneumatic/hydraulic system. i.e. the elevation of the trailing edge would be at a "very" slight inclination above the road surface; kinda like rolling over the millions of small peaks and valleys in every highway we travel upon. IOW the travel of the "piston(s) would be minimal given the "constant" flow of traffic to keep the pressure high enough to keep the flywheels turning. I understand that the actual design is beyond my engineering realm i.e the size/weight of the flywheels, generator size/output, drive pressure etc. etc. but, I can;t believe it would be any more of a challenge than what is being developed for hydro or wind generating systems.
I wasn't to fixed on this years ago when I considered it but, since the topic was brought up and given the worlds energy crisis that we face, I belive this is not too "out of the question". Sure would like some institution to investigate>>> ;)

[ASEI]

Use nuclear fuel to drive the expansion of gas through a turbine powering your car. :lol: You could get something like 10^12 miles/gallon. :lol: :lol: As long as you can develop the power to haul around a sturdy lead engine container, you're good.

Marty: "Holy ****, this puppy's nuclear?!!!" :D

[piersdad]

ASEI

perhaps a long wire un coiled from an orbiting redundant satelite would actually deorbit it and the power generated will drive the essential deorbiting controlls.

wjwduke

I se a use for your idea in powering any remote devise such as a electrical sign in a remote area of the highway.

the devise would be simple Just a small tube of oil set in the highway and as each vehicle goes over it the oil in the tube will drive a small turbine and a generator.
this would provide charging current to a battery powered sign for instance.

to use this on a larger scale would be very noticable to the motorists as even if the car is decelerated at a rate of 1 foot per sec per minute the motorist will notice it and complane about it.

so thats my free invention for the day

[wstevenbrown]

Just make the second layer of the highway piezoelectric. Rectify and store. And don't forget my royalty check! :P Steve

[wjwduke]

Thanks again for the reply..you do seem to be very concerned about the pocketbook of the wastefull "behemoth" owners; my interest is energy conservation. The intent of my post was only to point out the "huge" kinetic potential that could/should be harnessed. There must be 101 ways to do it. Getting the energy back into the power grid would be the biggest challenge however, even using it for highway lighting, or whatever needs power near the highway would be beneficial...nuff said, I'll go away. :(

[piersdad]

Just make the second layer of the highway piezoelectric. Rectify and store. And don't forget my royalty check! Steve

Another good idea again use a small band across the road of piezoelecrtics that charge a capacitator and sent the power to a small LED light a hundred meters or so ahead and act as warning lights for a sharp bend or something.

[TiMeTell]

Originally posted by Nereid@Apr 3 2005, 02:38 PM
TiMeTell, you might like to read up a bit on ZPE; ASEI's idea is pure classical physics, no different in principle from somehow setting up a giant cogwheel at the north pole of the Earth to drive a 'stationary' cogwheel; or some configuration of 'stationary' wires to move through the Earth's magnetic field.
aww, I Do agree. But on the other hand. This idea was presented to President Bush and was turned down due to the fact that If ZPE was able to be made possible or even allowed funding to look more into it then all the OIL and Gass and such will no longer be a main energy supply. I found a letter that was written to President Bush about ZPE and was turned down. :angry:

The world does not want Free energy this would turn things upside down for the whole world. I really believe that ZPE is possible I have done lots of reading up on it and from my point of view it's all about funding.

[Nereid]

The world does not want Free energy this would turn things upside down for the whole world. I really believe that ZPE is possible I have done lots of reading up on it and from my point of view it's all about funding.
Well, there's no doubt that "ZPE" is 'real'; the challenge is how to extract net, usable energy from it (other than on a scale comparable to the size of the universe)!
This idea was presented to President Bush and was turned down due to the fact that If ZPE was able to be made possible or even allowed funding to look more into it then all the OIL and Gass and such will no longer be a main energy supply.
Conspiracy theories are jolly good fun, aren't they? However, you aren't suggesting that there's a suppression of ideas, are you? Perhaps you could give us a link to a paper about how to extract net, usable energy from the "ZPE", published in a peer-reviewed physics journal?

[GOURDHEAD]

Well, there's no doubt that "ZPE" is 'real'; There is some doubt; part of it resides with me. If I am proven wrong, I agree harnessing will be difficult.

[Nereid]

Originally posted by GOURDHEAD@Apr 15 2005, 04:47 PM
Well, there's no doubt that "ZPE" is 'real'; There is some doubt; part of it resides with me. If I am proven wrong, I agree harnessing will be difficult.
Semantics perhaps, but "ZPE" 'comes with the package' in QM ... one reason why you can't do anything with it, is the "Z" - unless you go beyond QM :P

[TiMeTell]

See my idea about the ZPE is that we are thinking about this in a totally wrong way. “Turning ZPE into electricity”. Everything we do uses Electric energy. Lets twist our minds and think about energy in a totally different way and how that can be used. If there are other advanced civilization out in space I don’t think they are using electricity to power there ships, they have found some other way to use energy in a totally different way. Let’s open up our minds and find it. :blink:

[TiMeTell]

I have several links about ZPE. But I believe they are all going the wrong direction on how to get it.

http://www.halexandria.org/dward154.htm

http://users.erols.com/iri/ZPEpaper.html

http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/zpe/


This link is a very good link on energy…
I think everyone should look it up.

http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/links.html

:D

[TiMeTell]

This is what I Found:

writes: Attention environmentalists! If you care about the Earth, you must come to the realization that the environmental crisis is really a crisis about energy. Methods we now use to extract energy are a major cause of environmental problems. Solving the energy crisis now would provide the economic stimulus needed to address our most pressing environmental concerns and reduce tensions worldwide.

One letter sent to the President's desk may not change the future, but fifty thousand might. Then President Bush might be convinced to invest in more alternative energy research and development.

I am posting this letter drafted to President Bush about "Zero Point Energy" in hopes that open communication and sharing information will make a difference in Washington. Write your representatives and demand action be taken, and by all means, pray for our President in this time of disasters and distress around the globe.

I welcome your comments about this article. Please post your thoughts about this article at ZPEnergy.com and get involved.

__________________________________________
January 20, 2004

President George W. Bush
1600 Pennsylvania Ave.
Washington, D.C. 20501

Dear President Bush:

Every atom, whether in space or as part of a system, is radiating energy at any temperature, even at absolute zero. Known as Zero Point Energy because of this fact, this energy represents an enormous reservoir of virtually unlimited energy available to us.

The great inventor, Nikola Tesla stated that some day we would connect our machinery to the wheelworks of nature. This is exactly the opportunity that the endless energy of the atomic nature of matter presents to us. No longer will we have to contend with energy shortages and pollution. This energy source will free us as a civilization to pursue a grand vision.

How we will eventually make use of this enormous energy may be very simple - divinely simple. I believe that the universe makes use of this energy in a very simple way.

Zero Point Energy is indeed vast, but may only be useful to us at radiation frequencies because we also need energy density and the unique properties of radiated electromagnetic energy. The shell of an atom provides a small surface capacitance to store and amplify this energy and the nucleus provides a small resistance to the wave from which energy is transferred.

In other words, the atom is not unlike a power tube, or three-element transistor. We can make use of the emerging science of Nanotechnology to investigate new energy techniques.

It occurs to me that a quantum dot doped with a single impurity atom and placed in a superparamagnetic glass sphere would essentially imitate the atomic structure and utilize Zero Point Energy the same way that atoms do. The impurity atom would provide the radiant energy and the glass shell would provide amplification of this electromagnetic energy through surface capacitance and magnetic reinforcement. As the wave passed the quantum confined atom, energy would be transferred to the wave.

Essentially, this would be a resonant chamber, an inductance, and a capacitance. By first converting Zero Point Energy to light, and then to microwave and alternating electric current, we would have a complete energy system. Our system would be without fuels in the conventional form, and driven by the "Wheelworks of Nature" as Nikola Tesla once conceived.

I hope that the Department of Energy will consider this idea thoughtfully. Unlimited, non-polluting energy is what America needs most right now. An exciting future may be within our grasp if we will pursue a grand vision for America.

Thank you for your time.


Sincerely,

Ralph Randolph Sawyer

[piersdad]

mention ZPE
or Tesla
( who was a charlitan type showman who used impressive tricks to fool everyone)
and you will get no where.
write about just one provable fact and you just might get some attention.

flooding letters to the president will immediately fill large wastebaskets

[TiMeTell]

Originally posted by piersdad@May 2 2005, 10:03 PM
mention ZPE
or Tesla
( who was a charlitan type showman who used impressive tricks to fool everyone)
and you will get no where.
write about just one provable fact and you just might get some attention.

flooding letters to the president will immediately fill large wastebaskets
I believe it..
You will totally confuse people when you are talking about 2 totally different things.
The flooding part? Thats just totally dumb.. You don't send MASS amounts of the same letter to a person. You just write a very good letter. :D

[GOURDHEAD]

I put the likelyhood of the harnessing of ZPE right behind (much smaller than) that of harnessing the energy of Santa's reindeer and the Easter Bunny. Remind me what the theoretical basis of ZPE is and from whose epicycle shop it emanated. Even Hawking posited only that ZPE was the catalyst for extracting energy from black holes (as opposed to the source), the actual source of the energy.

I would welcome with great joy the knowledge that I'm wrong.

An approach with more appeal and a higher likelyhood of success with the added benefit of solving global warming is to genetically design plants (or bacteria) that are highly efficient at converting atmospheric and oceanic heat into substances with stored potential chemical energy that can be used to power industry to stave off the otherwise coming collapse of the global economy. We must take care not to overdo this and precipitate an ice age.

[TiMeTell]

Hey peeps,
I am working on a website that is going to involve ZPE, wormholes and Quantum physics. The only problem I am having is that I don't know much on how to make a professional looking website. Any thoughts you may have on it will be wonderful. <_<

[madman]

tesla was a charlatan?

what tricks did he play to fool people?

[piersdad]

tesla was a charlatan?
tesla used very high ac voltages and very small current
the average person percieved that there was lots of power there
where there was very little.
a test of an electric car that ran all day on some pecululare contraption with wire comming out of it and claiming it was getting power from some where ???

it would be very easy for him to hide some batteries in the cars chassis/ boot/ seats and fool everyone that the small thing in the bonnet was doing all the work.

as an electric car designer builder i could easily duplicate the trick and get
fame as so many other charlitans have done in the past.

the result is that the more genuine inventors get a bad name

tesla also did a tremendous amount of good work and sadly he was not above
doing the odd trick to impress and attract capital for his more important inventions

[biknewb]

Originally posted by piersdad@May 18 2005, 08:50 AM
the result is that the more genuine inventors get a bad name

tesla also did a tremendous amount of good work and sadly he was not above
doing the odd trick to impress and attract capital for his more important inventions
Tesla's bladeless turbines are really great stuff. Nothing to do with electricity, sorry. :D