Massive solar flare supports Electric Universe

[iantresman]

Sorry about the contentious headline, but it seems that the 4th largest solar flare in 15 years was detected on the early hours. See Large Solar Flare May Bring Disruptions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090701798.html) and Spaceweather.com (http://www.spaceweather.com/).

I predict that gravity won't stand a chance, and won't help in predicting the outcome: power blackouts, severe weather phenomenon, etc. This is an electromagnetic event caused by a small flare.

It would be interesting to work out the power emitted by the flare, and the power received on Earth.

And if a similar amount of energy came into the Solar System, I wonder how it would affect the Sun?

Regards,
Ian Tresman

[Fram]

Apart from jumping to conclusions, could you decide please if it's a large flare or a small flare?

And to answer your last question: well, the Sun would have a blackout a well. :)

[papageno]

Sorry about the contentious headline, but it seems that the 4th largest solar flare in 15 years was detected on the early hours. See Large Solar Flare May Bring Disruptions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090701798.html) and Spaceweather.com (http://www.spaceweather.com/).

I predict that gravity won't stand a chance, and won't help in predicting the outcome: power blackouts, severe weather phenomenon, etc. This is an electromagnetic event caused by a small flare.
Why would you expect a theory of gravity to explain what happens when a bunch of charged particles interacts with a planet and the circuitry on its surface?
Isn't a theory of electromagnetism more appropriate?

[Celestial Mechanic]

I say verily, render unto Einstein that which is Einstein's, and render unto Maxwell that which is Maxwell's.

[Faultline]

This is where the EU proponents could really use some math by which to make predictions.

How long does it take for a solar flare to transmit it's charged particles to our magnetic field according to the EU model. Then find out the arrival time according to the standard model, and then time the actual event and see which is right!

[Sparky56]

This is where the EU proponents could really use some math by which to make predictions.

How long does it take for a solar flare to transmit it's charged particles to our magnetic field according to the EU model. Then find out the arrival time according to the standard model, and then time the actual event and see which is right!
It seems the time may vary.

I found this at www.plasmacosmology.net

"...Sun spot 'mysteries'

In January 2005 our Sun produced a few more surprises. On 20th Jan, in particular, it produced a coronal mass ejection (CME) that achieved velocities incomparably greater than anything astronomers had seen before. It normally takes more than 24 hours for the charged particles of a solar outburst to reach the Earth, but this CME achieved it in just thirty minutes. Earth (some 96 million miles from the Sun) was immersed in what NASA scientists called 'the most intense proton storm in decades'. Proton storms get their name from the 'rain' of positively charged particles that can hit the Earth.
A NASA headline article concluded, 'How they were accelerated, however, remains a mystery'. From a plasma perspective, of course, this phenomenon is less mysterious.

Retired professor of electrical engineering, Donald Scott, does not mince words when responding to the astrophysicists’ lack of knowledge of electrical phenomena: "Any student of physics who has heard of electric charge and electric fields knows that the easiest way to get electrically charged particles to accelerate is to apply an electric field to them." ..."

I haven't heard any reports of power blackouts or strange weather, yet!

[Fram]

And why, according to a plasma perspective, did this acceleration happen this time and not the others?

[Sparky56]

I haven't heard any reports of power blackouts or strange weather, yet!
No sooner had I said this than we get a thunder storm, and minor road floods and traffic jams all over London.*

And they had to stop the cricket, the only game that is more technical than particle physics.



* I am not suggesting a direct link ... probably just a coincidence?

[Sparky56]

And why, according to a plasma perspective, did this acceleration happen this time and not the others?
A surge in galactic/intergalactic currents?

[Fram]

So you don't have a better explanation, just a guess that fits in with your theory.

[Nereid]

Sorry about the contentious headline, but it seems that the 4th largest solar flare in 15 years was detected on the early hours. See Large Solar Flare May Bring Disruptions (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/07/AR2005090701798.html) and Spaceweather.com (http://www.spaceweather.com/).

I predict that gravity won't stand a chance, and won't help in predicting the outcome: power blackouts, severe weather phenomenon, etc. This is an electromagnetic event caused by a small flare.

It would be interesting to work out the power emitted by the flare, and the power received on Earth.

And if a similar amount of energy came into the Solar System, I wonder how it would affect the Sun?

Regards,
Ian Tresman
We don't yet have rules for threads and ideas in ATM, here in the new BAUT.

However, I am certainly curious - as I see others have been before me, in this thread - to understand what the observation of certain flares on the Sun has to do with the (unquantified) EU idea! :)

Or, to be more precise, what - specifically - are you proposing re the EU idea and observations of there solar flares?

In what way will further observations serve to support the EU idea? Where can we find specific, quantitative predictions (together with the derivations, from Alfvén's, or other's, work) about this, that differ significantly from what you'd find in mainstream papers?

[iantresman]

Or, to be more precise, what - specifically - are you proposing re the EU idea and observations of there solar flares?

I was trying to make a perhaps poor analogy. It seems to me that a similar process may be going on in the Solar System as proposed by the Electric Universe proponents in powering the Sun, compared to a Solar Flare causing power outages in Earth. Both are transmitting energy through the interplanetary medium.

On the one hand, a Solar Flare is a relatively small transient event, that sends out power in 360-degrees in 3-dimensions, and the Earth receives quite a hefty jolt through the interplanetary medium. If we could reverse the process, then a hefty jolt on Earth, if directed back towards the Sun, would be equivalent to a large Solar Flare on the Sun.

I suspect that as a result of the Solar Flare, Pluto might get a tiny spark (if it had a magnetopshere). And as far out as the heliopause, a unit area might see a couple of extra electrons/ions? So what would happen if a couple of extra electrons/ions per unit area were directed back toward the Sun?

Regards,
Ian Tresman

[iantresman]

On the one hand, a Solar Flare is a relatively small transient event, that sends out power in 360-degrees in 3-dimensions, and the Earth receives quite a hefty jolt through the interplanetary medium. If we could reverse the process, then a hefty jolt on Earth, if directed back towards the Sun, would be equivalent to a large Solar Flare on the Sun.
I've just realised an error here. Although a Solar Flares causes a hefty jolt on Earth, this is not reversible since energy from the Sun's Solar Flare is radiated in 3-D 360-degrees, and would require all this energy directed back at the Sun to generate a Solar Flare, not just the amount that reaches Earth.

But nevertheless, it would still be interesting to work out the increase in ion density at the heliopause from such a Solar Flare, because that should be reversible.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

[Gillianren]

well, we had a bit of a power blip today--one of those rare Olympia thunder storms--but we had a much larger thunder storm earlier in the summer, and I didn't hear much from EU people about a solar flare causing that one, so clearly, this one is yet another coincidence.

[VanderL]

Coincidentally we had a heavy thunderstorm yesterday evening here in Holland.

The EU also sees parallels between the doughnut shaped plasma ring around the Sun and around Earth (the radiation belts), both act as a sort of capacitor that store and release energy, strong flares from the Sun could disrupt the normal dissipative process enhancing (thunder)storm activity while smaller flares do not correlate directly.

Cheers.

[Fram]

If the flare reached us in thirty minutes, how can a storm be predicted longer before? Doesn't this show that the flare is not the cause of the storm?

[Sparky56]

If the flare reached us in thirty minutes, how can a storm be predicted longer before? Doesn't this show that the flare is not the cause of the storm?
When do we ever get accurate weather forecasts?

[iantresman]

I get the feeling from some posts that not everyone is convinced that Solar Flares may influence the weather. I thought this was accepted, and Space Weather is its study?

See A Primer on Space Weather (http://www.sec.noaa.gov/primer/primer.html) and in particular the section starting "Solar Effects at Earth".

Regards,
Ian Tresman

[Halcyon Dayz]

Nowadays, more often than not.

[Fram]

I get the feeling from some posts that not everyone is convinced that Solar Flares may influence the weather. I thought this was accepted, and Space Weather is its study?

See A Primer on Space Weather (http://www.sec.noaa.gov/primer/primer.html) and in particular the section starting "Solar Effects at Earth".

Regards,
Ian Tresman

Yep, I have read it. You do know that a geomagnetic storm isn't the kind of thunderstorm discussed above? Perhaps I've missed it, but I saw no othet short term influences of solar flares on the weather (the climate is a different beast).

[Sparky56]

I also thought that this was an accepted fact; that solar flares affected the weather ... although some of the fine details may require ironing out.

No one has ever disputed that solar flares can knock out a city's electricity supply, have they?

[tbm]

Coincidentally we had a heavy thunderstorm yesterday evening here in Holland.

The EU also sees parallels between the doughnut shaped plasma ring around the Sun and around Earth (the radiation belts), both act as a sort of capacitor that store and release energy, strong flares from the Sun could disrupt the normal dissipative process enhancing (thunder)storm activity while smaller flares do not correlate directly.

Cheers.

The weather here in Northern Lower Michigan has been outstandingly beautiful and clear and is expected to be so for another couple of days.

HMMMMM......

Regards, tbm

[Kesh]

No one disputes that solar flares influence the weather. However, do you really expect an "instant thunderstorm" from a solar flare? That influence is going to take quite some time to filter down into average weather patterns.

Furthermore, how does this relate to the EU?

[nutant gene 71]

I predict that gravity won't stand a chance, and won't help in predicting the outcome: power blackouts, severe weather phenomenon, etc. This is an electromagnetic event caused by a small flare.

I saw on another board someone's input that recent massive solar flares caused 7.3 mag earthquake off New Guinea, but no references to these discussions were listed. Too bad, could have been interesting, though I suspect they might have been "end of the worlders". :)

[Edited: Found the reference link: Earthquake Triggering (http://www.freewebs.com/eq-forecasting/128.html) didn't have before. No comment, but it has other links too.]

[Mosheh Thezion]

Here is a thought.

If our earth has a iron core, that spins faster than the surface, and generates the magnetic field... (which we know is true.)
And as we know that when the solar wind pulses.. as with a solar flare, that it causes a response from the earth in the form of a pulse in the magnetic field in direct response.

Thinking of this we know that the earths field is polar, and that as such, the postive particles in the wind are directed to the north pole.. forming the aurora borealis.. (northern lights) and the negatives are directed to the south pole causeing simlar effects.
Now, it is known that an electric current flows from the surface.. ie. electrons flow from the suface of the earth up to the upper atmoshphere..
and so.

perhaps.. the sun sends the plasma.. it hits the earths field, and polarises the pos and neg to the poles.. which then sets up a large capacity across the earth, with the atmosphere as the dielectric.
thus.. lightning and sprites and perhaps precipitation itself is effected by this flow, of electrons all over the earth up towards the ionized upper atmoshere to conduct towards the north pole positive charge.
and that perhaps it is the billions of watts of electrical energy flowing threw the earth which applys the energy to drive the iron core dynamo at the center... and is why the field it emitts directly pulses with the solar wind.
for they are connected electrically as part of the dynamo we call earth.

And so.. variations in the solar wind, could over time, cause planet wide stresses and lead to earth quakes and may infact be the cause of plate motions to begin with...
And surtainly on a daily basis could effect our weather, assuming that the jet stream is sensitive to conditions effectable by the electrical condition of the earth...

which we know.. as by using the harrp.. that we (humans) can move the jet stream.

so maybe the earth can do so. i would think.

But this is all conjecture.
-MT

[iantresman]

No one disputes that solar flares influence the weather. However, do you really expect an "instant thunderstorm" from a solar flare?
Of course not, influence is good enough for me.

That influence is going to take quite some time to filter down into average weather patterns.

Furthermore, how does this relate to the EU?
That the mechanism is electromagnetic, not graviationally based.

Regards,
Ian Tresman

[Nereid]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kesh
Furthermore, how does this relate to the EU?

That the mechanism is electromagnetic, not graviationally based.
Ian, I think I must have missed something ...

From your last comment, it would seem that mainstream astrophysics and the EU ideas are fully aligned, in this case.

If so, it's hardly news ... many folk have pointed out (many times, in many threads) that plasma physics (to which Alfvén made many important contributions) is alive and well as an important aspect of astrophysics.

If not, would you be kind enough to tell me where I've gone off the rails?

[Svemir]

Ian, I think I must have missed something ...

From your last comment, it would seem that mainstream astrophysics and the EU ideas are fully aligned, in this case.

If so, it's hardly news ... many folk have pointed out (many times, in many threads) that plasma physics (to which Alfvén made many important contributions) is alive and well as an important aspect of astrophysics.

If not, would you be kind enough to tell me where I've gone off the rails?
Both EU, Plasma and "mainstream astrophysics" (I don't see the difference between the latter and "common plasma astrophysicist" he he) will agree that material from Sun is expelled,accelerated and carried to Earth by magnetic fields.
The weather on Earth is influenced by any, and I mean any movement in the Earths enviroment (Butterfly effect), so it's certainly effected by large amount of charged particles moving through Earth's atmosphere.
There is nothing new there.
But EU has extended Space Plasma Physics by several "proposals":
1) The Sun is an electric bulb, not a thermonuclear furnace
2) Planets were aranged different in the past (i.e.Venus ejected from Saturn and then placed in it's present orbit)
3) Comets are electrically charged and thus obey the laws of plasma physics
4) Craters (almost every single one) on celestial bodies in the Solar system are created by discharges on the planetary scale
etc.
While others have put great effort in disputing 1), I never really understood (and recieved answer to my questions) 2)
Do you claim that your mother could pull you out of your chair by combing you? ( inducing static electricity in your hair)
Saturn ejected Venus and Titan, by surface electrical stress (without disturbing it's beautifull rings, as if it is not recorded on ancient stones)?
Is it common way of planet/satelit formation?

It's not enough that Mercury has a large magnetic field to be influenced by CME or Solar flares (which AIUI are actually pointed preferably and not dispersed through a sphere).
Either Mercury's atoms have to be ionised (I mean most of them not only surface atoms) or Mercury has to be point/grain particle in plasma enviroment in order to it's orbit to be influenced by electromagnetic forces.
I don't see any evidence of that.
The first approximation of Mercury's orbit was Newtonian.
The second one was Einsteinian.
What does EU model say about that?
etc. etc.
Really, the fact that protons repeal each other and that plasma from Sun reaches the Earth does not prove EU model.

[tusenfem]

Here is a thought.

If our earth has a iron core, that spins faster than the surface, and generates the magnetic field... (which we know is true.)
And as we know that when the solar wind pulses.. as with a solar flare, that it causes a response from the earth in the form of a pulse in the magnetic field in direct response.

Thinking of this we know that the earths field is polar, and that as such, the postive particles in the wind are directed to the north pole.. forming the aurora borealis.. (northern lights) and the negatives are directed to the south pole causeing simlar effects.
Now, it is known that an electric current flows from the surface.. ie. electrons flow from the suface of the earth up to the upper atmoshphere..
and so.


You are kidding here, aren't you? ions go to the north pole and electrons to the south pole? Could you show some data to support this?

[Tim Thompson]

Originally Posted by Kesh: Furthermore, how does this relate to the EU?
And answered by Ian: That the mechanism is electromagnetic, not graviationally based.

Query: What mechanism?
Do you mean the mechanism that launched the flare? Of course it's electromagnetic, and since when did standard theory ever say otherwise? Do you mean the mechanism by which the flare affects earth? Same answer. I just don't see the point at all.

[The Bad Astronomer]

I say verily, render unto Einstein that which is Einstein's, and render unto Maxwell that which is Maxwell's.

This is brilliant. I may steal it! Thought I might change Einstein to Newton in this case. :)

[Celestial Mechanic]

I say verily, render unto Einstein that which is Einstein's, and render unto Maxwell that which is Maxwell's.This is brilliant. I may steal it! Thought I might change Einstein to Newton in this case. :)
Be my guest!

Now, if only you could take my "Things Aren't Where They Seem" thread and work it up into a tidbit in the pantry or something.