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snowflakeuniverse
19-September-2005, 04:26 PM
Advice for Bastions of the Establishment
Throwing out the baby with the bath water

I have noticed that there is generally a tendency to dismiss another person’s work entirely, for the sake of one or two ideas that may seem to be too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe, or they may simply be wrong. I say this after Maksutov’s Post # 20 and N C More’s post number 22 on the thread http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32335 It is hoped that Maksutov and N C More do not take the following post personally, they are not guilty of the problem addressed here, the very fact that they respond to the works of myself and others after some review testifies to this, I am just trying to point out a pervasive problem within the “Mainstream”. )

The issue comes up after stating my support for the discoveries of O.K. Manuel’s work. While I may have some reservations about the extent or specifics of his theory, I cannot dismiss his work entirely. His discovery that some kind of extreme thermonuclear event occurred billions of years ago seems irrefutable, therefore it is justified to seek or present explanations for the observations. If one does not like the model proposed to explain the observational evidence, leave it at that and take it to heart that some kind of explanation must be out there. Maybe you have the imagination and skills to provide your own theory. Please, avoid the tendency to dismiss all of anyone’s work just because you do not believe in parts of the work.

This leads to a discussion of Tom Van Flandern, who also was grouped together with O.K. Manuel by Makstov

“Both of these gentlemen and their "against the mainstream" claims have little to no credibility in the scientific community nor in my book. “

I have had the pleasure to meet Dr. Flandern this summer and found him to be intelligent, insightful and fascinating. He is well educated with a Ph.D from Yale in Astronomy. A few years ago he presented a paper on the “Top ten reasons the Big Bang is wrong”. He has now extended it to 50 and could “include a lot more”.

I talked to Mr. Flandern about his controversial claims of evidence that there was once a civilization on Mars. I told him that that his opinion made it more difficult for others to accept his other work, and that even I had to respond with a fair amount of skepticism. He did not care. I got the sense that he was proud to risk his reputation for the sake of an idea or belief; few have such courage. Is he “absolutely” certain there was a civilization of Mars? Of course not, but to him the evidence supports such a belief.

As far as I am concerned, the chance that there was once a civilization on Mars to be slim, maybe one in a million, which is better odds than winning the lottery. If we did find irrefutable evidence of an old civilization on Mars, I would be doubly excited, not just because of the discovery, but because it would also justify Dr. Flandern. I cannot help but identify with a fellow “outsider”. (Also, of his 50 criticisms of the Big Bang, a fair number of them, in my opinion, are valid, and justified and should be reason alone to question if the model is entirely correct. There is also, I feel very, convincing evidence of a Big Bang). I would like to point out that Dr Flandern was absolutely right in predicting the results of the comet smashing experiment.

Which leads to the last point. I am truly thankful for this forum. Having discovered a fundamental advancement in theoretical physics, I find myself largely ignored from the “Establishment”. Trying to get a “peer review” is extremely difficult since “peer review” itself carries with it the built in bias to preserve the beliefs of the “peers”. When I presented my work at MIT this winter, undergrads and graduate students for the poster board presentation were great; some were even enthusiastic and believed they were witness to a major event. However all the professors at the oral presentation were cold, disinterested, and presumptive of the value of the theory. They just do not believe in anything other than what they already know. If a theory does not look like General Relativity and it involves gravity, the theory is assumed to be wrong and is dismissed. The following is a criticism I have heard several times, “It can not be that simple”, to which I have countered, “If that is the case, it should be easy to prove where I am wrong, it is easy for me to prove where General Relativity is incomplete, Einstein himself stated so.” The conversation usually ends there since I have been “pigeon holed” as a “crack pot”). Please, avoid the tendency to dismiss my work, or anyone “outside the box” without some kind of fair consideration. Failure to consider the validity in works of others, whether in or out of the “mainstream”, reveals a limit to the imagination and presents a threat to the advancement of science.

Snowflake

Kesh
19-September-2005, 05:28 PM
To the contrary. Allowing every far-left-field idea time on the podium detracts from the real science. It becomes an effort of sifting through the garbage piles to find the real science of merit.

If someone continually shows they cannot back up their wild claims with mathematical models, observation and prediction, it becomes clear that continually giving them "air time" is a waste.

antoniseb
19-September-2005, 06:16 PM
His discovery that some kind of extreme thermonuclear event occurred billions of years ago seems irrefutable

Thanks for the advice SnowflakeUniverse.

As you probably know, those of us who participated in the "Iron Sun" discussion with Dr. Manuel have a respect for some of his work, though, I doubt that we can say he "discovered" that the solar system contains much material from previous Supernovae. I have the impression that this bit of knowledge pre-dates his activity in related topics. I recall reading about it in the 1960s as though it was old news.

His ideas about the Sun being composed mostly of Iron are wrong. His oft cited data about the varying abundances of Xenon isotopes is interesting, but not a result of his own experiments (except perhaps measuring terrestrial abundances).

Similarly, Halton C. Arp did some very nice work in the distant past cataloging unusual galaxies (mostly ones undergoing some kind of collision). His outside-the-box theories about quasar red-shifts does not make the catalog useless. So yes, your advice is good, thanks.

Still, your idea about changing gravitational constant seems like we should be able to identify many ways in which this can be tested. Have you come up with any? Would you like to? Are you looking for us to? I don't think it is simply enough to state that this could explain something, when the unexamined possible consequences in other areas would be so dramatic.

hhEb09'1
19-September-2005, 06:23 PM
Advice for Bastions of the Establishment
Throwing out the baby with the bath water

I have noticed that there is generally a tendency to dismiss another person’s work entirely, for the sake of one or two ideas that may seem to be too much of a stretch of the imagination to believe, or they may simply be wrong.Depends upon how the babies react once some of their ideas have been dashed with cold water. If the babies whine and throw a tantrum, they're more apt to be left in the cold. If instead they listen quietly, and hold out their arms for support, they will be brought to the busom and loved.

You see it on this board all the time.

Here's a website (http://www.relativitychallenge.com) that is currently being advertised in the ads that appear at the top of the forums. It is called the Relativity Challenge, and the author (Steven Bryant) says he has found a couple errors in Einstein's work. One of the errors (http://www.relativitychallenge.com/math1905Mistake.htm) concerns some basic algebra in Einstein's 1905 paper, and Bryant has developed his own theory after "correcting" the error.

It took me ten minutes to find Bryant's own error. Had he not been so ready to assume that there was an error in Einstein's work, rather than his own, he would have found his own error too. Instead, on that website, you find page after page of antiestablishment screeds lamenting the unfair shake that such theories receive from the mainstream journals. Ignoring such nonsense is not throwing the baby out with the bathwater, it is more like a flushing of the system.

Do real errors get made by real scientists, and real editors? Of course. Let's quite whining and find them.

N C More
19-September-2005, 07:04 PM
N C More’s post number 22 on the thread http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32335 It is hoped that Maksutov and N C More do not take the following post personally, they are not guilty of the problem addressed here, the very fact that they respond to the works of myself and others after some review testifies to this, I am just trying to point out a pervasive problem within the “Mainstream”. )



Since I was personally addressed, I'll attempt to clarify the point I was trying to make. The truth is that many, all too many it sometimes seems, really do present bodies of work that are severely lacking any sort of reasonable back up. Frequently, these people complain loudly when they are asked to present experimental or mathematical evidence for their claims.

They protest and claim this or that historic figure was "laughed at" and dismissed, as if this is supposed to somehow make up for their short comings. Just because someone, at some point in time, was correct but dismissed and scoffed at, doesn't mean that every situation is one of patent dismissal of credible claims. Sometimes what is being dismissed really isn't of very much merit.

snowflakeuniverse
19-September-2005, 07:23 PM
Thank you all, especially N.C. More, for your thoghtfull responses.

John M.Kulick
AKA Snowflake

Archer17
19-September-2005, 07:37 PM
snowflakeuniverse:

I've read your posts and with one exception a year or so ago, am content to let others debate the merits of your proposals as most of this stuff is over my head. In the thread I did respond to (dealt with the sun going nova in the past) I noticed a tendency for you to overlook that what you proposed can have other, less exotic causation. This is a fatal flaw when trying to convince "the establishment." Every pioneer in science had to overcome resistance if what they proposed went against the grain of contemporary thinking, but they plugged on. By all means keep at it if you believe your are on the right track, but decrying the resistance you encounter isn't going to get your ideas accepted any quicker. It has to be more than just different snowflake, you have to sell it as a better "product"' than what the mainstream is using.

Regarding "throwing out the baby with the bath water," I've seen this more from ATM promoters than from those skeptical of whatever claim is being made. Regarding Tom Van Flandern, I've read his thoughts on Mars and find his input "woo woo." As I've tried to explain to another poster, that doesn't automatically make everything Van Flandern has provided astronomy/science with as woo woo, but it does diminish him when he's invoked as some kind of qualifier for ATM proposals. It might not seem fair to you but IMO if he can get something like ancient Martian civilization wrong, he's fallible enough to get [insert an ATM concept here] wrong as well.

N C More
19-September-2005, 08:03 PM
Just to add, I have to agree with Archer, just because someone is promoting something that lacks credibility doesn't mean that eveything they claim is also lacking. However, if one does this enough (a good example would be Richard Hoagland) then it's only natural for people to view their claims in a suspect manner.

Also, I wasn't specifically targeting snowflakeuniverse with my comment. Heck, it applies to everyone, everywhere who has an hypothesis that they are trying to support. I suspect that's why a frequent piece of advice (for us all) is to not become too attached to any one hypothesis! I'd say that revision should be a concept accepted by all.

Cougar
19-September-2005, 08:18 PM
I talked to Mr. Flandern about his controversial claims of evidence that there was once a civilization on Mars. I told him that that his opinion made it more difficult for others to accept his other work, and that even I had to respond with a fair amount of skepticism. He did not care. I got the sense that he was proud to risk his reputation for the sake of an idea or belief; few have such courage.
Are you sure it's "courage"? How do you know it's not "marketing"?
Trying to get a “peer review” is extremely difficult since “peer review” itself carries with it the built in bias to preserve the beliefs of the “peers”.
This is a completely unfounded claim. And it's wrong. If you want to get away with such slanderous rhetoric, you'll have to supply some verifiable evidence that goes beyond the anecdotal.

Monique
19-September-2005, 08:53 PM
Trying to get a “peer review” is extremely difficult since “peer review” itself carries with it the built in bias to preserve the beliefs of the “peers”.

This is a completely unfounded claim. And it's wrong. If you want to get away with such slanderous rhetoric, you'll have to supply some verifiable evidence that goes beyond the anecdotal.

I agree with Cougar. I am referee for mathematics journal. For role I keep my views separate. I judge based on content, rigor of argument, presentation.

Michael Mozina
19-September-2005, 11:17 PM
Thanks for the advice SnowflakeUniverse.

As you probably know, those of us who participated in the "Iron Sun" discussion with Dr. Manuel have a respect for some of his work, though, I doubt that we can say he "discovered" that the solar system contains much material from previous Supernovae. I have the impression that this bit of knowledge pre-dates his activity in related topics. I recall reading about it in the 1960s as though it was old news.

Whether it was "old news" or new information, the fact of the matter is that his claims were verified recently.

http://www.spaceref.com/news/viewpr.html?pid=17308

The notion that the sun is somehow NOT composed of the same elements as all the other planets defies common sense. Why would the sun be so special? Wouldn't a supernova contain mostly iron?

His ideas about the Sun being composed mostly of Iron are wrong. His oft cited data about the varying abundances of Xenon isotopes is interesting, but not a result of his own experiments (except perhaps measuring terrestrial abundances).

How do you KNOW (from a scientific perspective) that his life's work is simply "wrong". It seems to me that anyone is capable of dismissing an idea out of hand. It takes a true scientist to point out the error within the work. Where is the error you see in his work? Why are there now satellite observations that corroborate his theories? What are the "structures" seen in running difference images of the sun?

Kesh
20-September-2005, 03:03 AM
Here we go again...

Van Rijn
20-September-2005, 03:11 AM
Here we go again...

Yep, on the BABB I clearly remember discussing relative abundance of elements, density of the sun and the densities of the planets (hint: gas giants), abundance of hydrogen in the universe, and so on and so forth. Apparently, Michael forgot that his question was already answered.

antoniseb
20-September-2005, 03:32 AM
Why are there now satellite observations that corroborate his theories? What are the "structures" seen in running difference images of the sun?

Let's keep this in one thread. There are three different threads that have had Iron Sun stuff posted in them today. I will answer your question in one with an appropriate title.

Cougar
20-September-2005, 03:58 AM
I am referee for mathematics journal.... I keep my views separate. I judge based on content, rigor of argument, presentation.Thank you very much, Monique. I feel that your good sense of scientific ethics is the more commonplace, while the shallow, controlling, and possessive peer reviewer that Snowflake conjures up is more the exception.