Linux

[The Supreme Canuck]

Okay, I've brought this up before, but all I got was "If you don't know how to use it, you shouldn't!" Thing is, I want to learn more about Linux so that I can judge whether or not it's worth taking the time to learn how to use it. Can anyone point me in a good direction?

[Celestial Mechanic]

A good way to test drive Linux without actually installing it on your computer is to get what is called a "Live CD". You can use this live CD to boot Linux from the CD (if your computer is not too old and can boot from CD; booting from CD before booting from hard drive must be enabled in the BIOS settings).

If you have broadband Internet service you can download images of these CDs and burn them; if you have dial-up (like I do) it is better to rely on computer user groups and/or computer savvy friends to do this.

Books can be another source of live CDs for Linux. Marcel Gagne has written several books (I don't have the titles in front of me) that contain Knoppix (the name of a popular live CD distribution) CDs. Also a book to look for is Knoppix Hacks from O'Reilly books.

Another popular distribution that is often seen on live CDs is Ubuntu.

One last thing: You should have at least 128 megabytes of RAM. The kernel will set up a large RAM disk and place the most frequently used files there. A live CD will not be practical with an older computer, such as a 486 with 32 megs, for example.

I hope this helps!

[Robert Andersson]

If you want to learn Linux, avoid distros such as Debian or Fedora (Red Hat), and try a cleaner one such as Slackware (http://www.slackware.org/). That is my opinion, the former kind tries to be user friendly by hiding what is really going on, by adding new, non-standard stuff.

A second recommendation: don't install on a too new computer. Because vendors only care that their hardware runs on Windows, it can take a while before support ships with the distribution. That is not to say that Linux doesn't support new hardware, but it might require a fair amount of hacking and tweaking. A 1-2 year old model shouldn't be a problem, though.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I'm currently posting from Ubuntu Linux (http://ubuntulinux.org/). It's currently #1 on DistroWatch.com as far as "hits per day". The only real complaint I have about it is that their bundled version of Firefox (1.0.7), for some reason, is horribly slow...

They also have a Live CD version so you can try it out without having to commit hard drive space.

[Metricyard]

I've tried a few of the different linux distros, and they're all pretty good. but I still prefer BSD. I don't know why, it just seems to be a more polished OS. Any other BSDers out there?

Of course if you're using OS X, you're already using BSD.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Celestial Mechanic: I was thinking that a CD distribution would be a good way to start. Then I'd probably go with Windows and Linux on the same system if I liked it. That way I can still use my computer while learning how to use Linux.

Robert Andersson: Well, I just bought my computer in August. New. I may have a few problems...

[dvb]

If you want to learn Linux, avoid distros such as Debian or Fedora (Red Hat), and try a cleaner one such as Slackware (http://www.slackware.org/). That is my opinion, the former kind tries to be user friendly by hiding what is really going on, by adding new, non-standard stuff.
I'm with Mr. Andersson on this one. Debian is more for hardcore "build your own OS from scratch" type of distro, where Fedora bundles as much junk as they can fit on a CD, and tries to hide everything from you as Robert has already mentioned. Slackware falls nicely in between, and is very low on fat (bloatware), which is something I can appreciate. I've yet to try Ubuntu, so I can't comment on it, though I do plan to try it out in the future.

[CRHTO]

I think linux is really a learn-by-doing thing.

I'm currently running linux on my home computer (mostly because its an ancient laptop -- 466 MHz of computing fury! -- and it was not happy with Windows 98 on it). I've played around with a few different distros, including Ubuntu and Damn Small Linux, which boots from a live CD and is only 50 MB big.

I started learning Linux knowing virtually nothing about computers (I still know virtually nothing -- there's an awful lot to know) and I found the O'Reilly books really helpful. There a lot of helpful forums scattered around, too.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Right, well I've decided to try Knoppix out. It's just hard to download (700 Megs) over my university's terrible network...

[Gullible Jones]

Here's a distro you might want to try: Frugalware. (http://frugalware.org/news.php) It's based upon the distro I'm using now (Arch Linux), but apparently tries to be friendlier to intermediate users. What's nice about Arch and Frugalware is that there's a central configuration file ala the BSDs, something that distros with SystemV-style initscripts lack.

Edit: I suppose you could also try Arch itself, but I wouldn't recommend it. There's a bit of a schism between the maintainers and some of the users right now... In fact, due to the planned implemation of an initrd, I've been thinking of switching over to Frugalware, which is starting to look a bit better managed.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I may try that in the future, but I really want to avoid reformatting or compartmentalizing my HD until I'm somewhat sure I want to switch from Windows. A Live CD distro looks good for now.

[Robert Andersson]

I'm with Mr. Andersson on this one. Debian is more for hardcore "build your own OS from scratch" type of distro, where Fedora bundles as much junk as they can fit on a CD, and tries to hide everything from you as Robert has already mentioned. Slackware falls nicely in between, and is very low on fat (bloatware), which is something I can appreciate. I've yet to try Ubuntu, so I can't comment on it, though I do plan to try it out in the future.
Are you perhaps confusing Debian (http://www.debian.org/") with some other distro, like Gentoo (http://www.gentoo.org)? Debian, IMO, is pretty much as Fedora &co. And, Slackware is really not that much thinner than the others, if you make a full install, but it is a lot cleaner. No package dependancies, transparent configuration, almost all packages are vanilla, etc. Slackware is said to be the most Unix like Linux distro (oldest too), and I tend to agree. Yes, you guessed it, I'm a Slacker! :cool:
http://www.slackware.com/~msimons/slackware/grfx/shared/phearSW.gif
Note, there have been many new distros popping up the last few years, and I have not tried many, so there might be many good that I overlook in my analysis.

[Robert Andersson]

Robert Andersson: Well, I just bought my computer in August. New. I may have a few problems...
Don't turn away yet, just be warned. It is really not when you bought it that matters (as I'm sure you understand as well), but how new the parts are. Eg, if you have a really new graphics card, you might need to compile a beta release of Xorg. But, it might as well be an easy ride and everything just works out of the box.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, I'll givie it a try. One thing I did find out, though, is that I can't write to my NTSF HD with Knoppix. Is that a general Linux thing, or just this distro?

[Robert Andersson]

Well, I'll givie it a try. One thing I did find out, though, is that I can't write to my NTSF HD with Knoppix. Is that a general Linux thing, or just this distro?
Microsoft has never revealed the full format of NTFS, so it has been reverse engineered. Reading is always safe, but writing is experimental. You can write to NTFS (by mounting it with the correct options), but no guarantees it won't destroy your partition.

Actually, I think it is pretty safe to write. It is edge cases that might cause trouble, and if it would happen it is likely easy to recover everything. I have an NTFS partition I write to from time to time, and nothing bad has happened yet, but I would not cry if it would (after all, it's just Windows there ;)).

EDIT: If you want to dual boot and share data between Linux and Windows, the easiest (and safest) way is to create a FAT32 partition for your data.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking for when I graduate to that point.

[dvb]

Are you perhaps confusing Debian (http://www.debian.org/%22) with some other distro, like Gentoo (http://www.gentoo.org)?

Yup, my mistake. Don't ask me how I got the two confused either. I've run Gentoox on 2 different xbox's, so you think I'd know the difference. :shifty:

[Gullible Jones]

Slackware was my first distro. I liked it... But the lack of package management and limited number of packages got on my nerves a bit. You can use the repo at linuxpackages.net, but Swaret (an optional package manager for Slackware) has trouble with that, last I checked - it will install multiple versions of the same package.

Basically, I'd go for a distribution that has BSD initscripts rather than SystemV ones.

Anyway... Looking around some more, I think that Zenwalk (www.zenwalk.org) (formerly Minislack) and Vector Linux (www.vectorlinux.com) look promising - not quite as tough to get started with as Slackware, but not sugar-coated either.

[montebianco]

Well, distros are alright, but if you really want to have a go at it, build your own Linux (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org)!

[Robert Andersson]

Well, distros are alright, but if you really want to have a go at it, build your own Linux (http://www.linuxfromscratch.org)!
I started doing that some time ago, but lost interest after a few weeks...

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I started doing that some time ago, but lost interest after a few weeks...
Hehe. Same here, except that was really my first major experience with Linux, so I never even got a working system together. I tend to dive headlong into projects and then get frustrated when I lose momentum. It's a curse...

[montebianco]

I've got several systems going this way. It definitely is work, but once you get the hang of it, it's not too bad :D

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, I finally got around to trying Knoppix. The graphics are terrible. Everything is chunky. Any idea what's going on?

[mugaliens]

Linux. I always wanted to try it, but I do not have problems with Windows.

Why switch?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, I figure I should try it before I pass judgement.

[HenrikOlsen]

Well, I finally got around to trying Knoppix. The graphics are terrible. Everything is chunky. Any idea what's going on?
At a guess, Knoppix isn't detecting your monitor correctly, so is going with a safe setting to avoid harming it.
How to solve your problem I can't help with is I haven't actually tried it.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Well, I finally got around to trying Knoppix. The graphics are terrible. Everything is chunky. Any idea what's going on?
Sounds like it didn't pick the correct drivers for your video card. I'm not familiar with Knoppix, so I can't really help beyond that. :(

[Gullible Jones]

Wait... Chunky as in pixilated? Can you see what resolution your monitor's at?

[GDwarf]

I've tried Knoppix and it looked great for me, I just had the one network card it didn't recognize, so no internet for me.

What may be wrong is Knoppix selecting too low a resolution/refresh rate for your monitor, no idea how to fix it, I'm afraid.

Linux. I always wanted to try it, but I do not have problems with Windows.

Why switch?
Windows has security holes and is filled with bugs that will probably never be solved.
Windows hides most of it's inner workings from you, if it does something, you don't know how, which makes fixing problems much harder.
Linux (for the most part) is free.
Most Linux distros have far better tech support, to the point where some people have reported bugs and have had them fixed by the following week, something that Windows never even comes close to, heck, when SP1 came out many users experienced an incredible slowdown, they called/e-mailed Microsoft for tech support, half the operators claimed that there wasn't a problem, the other half sent them to a patch for a different issue, hardly a stellar performance.(From PCworld, summer... 2003 issue, I beleive)


In short: Linux is great if you want to be able to 'fine tune' your system and know what it is doing, Windows is great if you don't care what computer does, so long as it can type your documents for you and let you surf the web.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Wait... Chunky as in pixilated? Can you see what resolution your monitor's at?

Kind of. It's so bad that I have trouble reading text. Probably has something to do with my wonky screen (it's a widescreen). Time to do a bit of Googling, methinks.

[Gullible Jones]

Hmm... LCD or CRT?

[The Supreme Canuck]

LCD. I have a desktop replacement laptop. See here (http://www.toshiba.ca/web/product.grp?lg=en&section=1&group=1&product=3791#).

[systemparadox]

Don't know how far you have got with the googling, but a quick search for "linux on toshiba satellite p30" gave this:

http://www.do-linux.net/P30.html

With the exception of the modem, all your hardware can be made to work with too much hassle.
You might be able to get the modem working (with an unknown amount of effort) as it is at least AC97 (doesn't always mean a lot though).

While live-cd's are useful for rescuing systems, I hate trying to help people setup hardware on them. Why? Well, Linux setup requires editing configuration files (which is a huge advantage on normal systems- for many reasons). Depending on how the live-cd filesystem is organised, this can be a real pain. What's more, you will almost certainly need to install new software or even recompile your kernel. With a livecd this is not easy (and changing the kernel is impossible).

I strongly suggest that the next time you need to reformat Windows (which is every 3-6 months for XP, and every 2 weeks for Win95, 98 and 98SE- and I'm not joking), you make a partition for Linux. Or if you already have multiple partitions (a very good idea when running Windows- as you can store all your data on the spare partition while you wipe the primary) then you could probably find a way of rearranging them without reloading Windows. Alternatively just buy a second hard disk and stick Linux on that.

If you want to get into Linux, you really should install it to your hdd.

You will probably find a lot more info by googling as I did above, or at:
http://www.linux-on-laptops.com/toshiba.html

Let me know if I can be of further help.

Simon

[The Supreme Canuck]

Ah, thank you kindly! I think I'll go with the partition at the next reformat. Doesn't sound like too much of a hassle.

[LurchGS]

we (my company) built our own linux/distribution... but it's pretty specific to our needs as a telephone company. Most of the fun tools I like aren't in it (not that you can't grab source and compile, naturally), and it contains a number of tools we wrote ...

but it runs fine on my mac and on the pentiums. Its fast, it's tight, and it makes me breakfast.

[HenrikOlsen]

I build my own minimalistic Linux system a while ago, made so it fits on a floppy disk but has fullyfeatured (though compiled against a smallsized libc) examples of the main recovery tools I use.
It's saved my data several times.

[Gullible Jones]

Eh? You use uClibc or dietlibc?

[HenrikOlsen]

uClibc

[Gullible Jones]

Heh, I hear the Archie (Arch Linux live CD) devs are trying to make a uClibc version... Nice idea, but don't a lot of things point-blank refuse to build against uClibc?

[Van Rijn]

I strongly suggest that the next time you need to reformat Windows (which is every 3-6 months for XP, and every 2 weeks for Win95, 98 and 98SE- and I'm not joking), you make a partition for Linux.

Well, maybe you aren't joking, but would you mind telling me why you would need to reformat so often? Windows certainly isn't perfect, and things can happen where reformatting is the easiest option, especially in Win 9X, but that is an incredibly high reformat rate.

[Tuckerfan]

I've found a lot of good info on Linux here. (http://www.linuxquestions.org/). I made the switch because my box was seriously bogged down by all the anti-spyware/anti-virus programs needed if you want to surf the web these days. I was also having some problems with my hardware that I thought was related to spyware (sadly that doesn't look to be the case).

I don't have too many problems with it, though it's fairly obvious that some of the programmers out there go out of their way to make things hard for a n00b, just so that they can show off their "rad kodin' skillz." Currently I'm having a problem with the fonts looking fuzzy, but from everything I can google, it looks to be major surgery to correct, so I'll just have to suffer through that (or use my iMac) until I get it all sorted out. If there's a Barnes & Nobles in your area, you might check and see if they carry Linux Format Magazine (http://linuxformat.co.uk/) as every issue includes a CD/DVD with just tons of free programs. There's other Linux mags that do something similar, but I'm not familiar with them, so I don't know how their CD/DVDs and articles stack up.

[Tuckerfan]

Oh, yeah, I just found this page (http://www.macworld.com/weblogs/editors/2005/07/terminaltricks/index.php) which has a listing of Unix games that are native to Linux and Macs (the page is for Macs, but I just checked it on my Linux box and they all seem to be there.

[Gullible Jones]

I've found a lot of good info on Linux here. (http://www.linuxquestions.org/). I made the switch because my box was seriously bogged down by all the anti-spyware/anti-virus programs needed if you want to surf the web these days. I was also having some problems with my hardware that I thought was related to spyware (sadly that doesn't look to be the case).

I don't have too many problems with it, though it's fairly obvious that some of the programmers out there go out of their way to make things hard for a n00b, just so that they can show off their "rad kodin' skillz." Currently I'm having a problem with the fonts looking fuzzy, but from everything I can google, it looks to be major surgery to correct, so I'll just have to suffer through that (or use my iMac) until I get it all sorted out. If there's a Barnes & Nobles in your area, you might check and see if they carry Linux Format Magazine (http://linuxformat.co.uk/) as every issue includes a CD/DVD with just tons of free programs. There's other Linux mags that do something similar, but I'm not familiar with them, so I don't know how their CD/DVDs and articles stack up.

If you use Gnome, KDE, or XFce, try enabling antialiasing. With Gnome, try "Best Contrast" if "Best Shapes" causes problems. With either Gnome or KDE, enabling subpixel smoothing might be a good idea if you have an LCD monitor.

If you're using a standalone window manager and a cobbled-together desktop, then yes, it will require major surgery, which I unfortunately do not know how to do.

[Tuckerfan]

If you use Gnome, KDE, or XFce, try enabling antialiasing. With Gnome, try "Best Contrast" if "Best Shapes" causes problems. With either Gnome or KDE, enabling subpixel smoothing might be a good idea if you have an LCD monitor.

If you're using a standalone window manager and a cobbled-together desktop, then yes, it will require major surgery, which I unfortunately do not know how to do.I've tried the anti-aliasing, and it only helps a little. From what I've read, the only way to fix it is to import Windows fonts, and I'm still trying to figure out all the various directories and subfolders as well as the various install issues that seem endemic to Linux (damn near everyone has their own way of how you should install the program, it seems) I'm probably going to hold off on this.

[Gullible Jones]

Have you tried using subpixel antialiasing and messing around with the settings?

Also, what about bitmap fonts?

[LurchGS]

and on the subject of books, I'm *VERY* happy with the QUE book series - in some instances, they're better than O'Reilly

[Tuckerfan]

Have you tried using subpixel antialiasing and messing around with the settings?

Also, what about bitmap fonts?
Haven't tried either of those, and don't know how to do it. (There's an easy checkbox for antialiasing, but I haven't seen anything for subpixel or using bitmap fonts.)

[LurchGS]

I know this is a stupid question, but it needs to be asked - are you sure it's just the fonts? Make sure the icons are nice and crisp - if they're fuzzy too, you may be using the wrong video driver

[Tuckerfan]

I know this is a stupid question, but it needs to be asked - are you sure it's just the fonts? Make sure the icons are nice and crisp - if they're fuzzy too, you may be using the wrong video driverThe icons are fine, and I'm running the right drivers (I've got an old video card in the box which no longer has an OEM, so I paid close attention to that.)

[LurchGS]

The icons are fine, and I'm running the right drivers (I've got an old video card in the box which no longer has an OEM, so I paid close attention to that.)

Cool shoes. (I did some tech support for a while, one of my customers called with a terminal that was down... I ran though the normal stupid questions... ended up trucking over with a replacement. only to find out that somebody in the office had turned the ^(#&*^R$#(*&$^ off, and nobody thought to try turning it back on. So, I go right ahead and ask my stupid questions)