WV mining accident (title edited)

[Cylinder]

It's on the cable news channels now. Live presser coming soon. Great news!

[Cylinder]

Family members report 12 trapped miners are alive (http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20060103-2114-mineexplosion.html)

TALLMANSVILLE, W.Va. – Twelve miners caught in an explosion in a coal mine were found alive late Tuesday, more than 41 hours after the blast, family members said.
Bells at a church where relatives had been gathering rang out as family members ran out screaming in jubilation.

Relatives yelled "They're alive!"

"Miracles happen in West Virginia and today we got one," said Charlotte Weaver, wife of Jack Weaver, one of the men who had been trapped in the mine.

"I got scared a lot of times, but I couldn't give up," she said. "We have an 11-year-old son, and I couldn't go home and tell him, 'Daddy wasn't coming home.'"

[Candy]

Shut up! I've been watching this all day. Must turn channel! :dance:

[Candy]

OMG! This makes me cry. :cry:

[Candy]

I'm very happy!

[Candy]

OMG, THIS IS SO EXCITING! :shifty:

I fear some are still dead.

[Candy]

I hate this anticipation. I just can't deal with more BAD NEWS today. If someone will update this thread, I'll resume watching. I JUST CAN'T WATCH THIS ANY LONGER. I'm sorry.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Thirteen initially lost after the explosion. One body found earlier today (Tuesday). The others apparently still alive...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/03/mine.explosion/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

[Candy]

Yeah, but "they" are being very sensitive to the results of the living. "They" as they should are being very polite, very unusual. :think:

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Yeah, but "they" are being very sensitive to the results of the living. "They" as they should are being very polite, very unusual. :think:
I don't understand what you're trying to say...

[Musashi]

That normally the media would be in everyone's faces?

[Candy]

That normally the media would be in everyone's faces?
Thank you for explaining.

[Cylinder]

That normally the media would be in everyone's faces?

The town is being very supportive of the families who wish for privacy. It's not uncommon in rural areas for things like this to be treated delicately for lack of a better word.

[Musashi]

I wish it was like that everywhere.

[Candy]

My gander, they are dead. :(

Please, tell me something different. :shifty:

[Cylinder]

My gander, they are dead. :(

Please, tell me something different. :shifty:

No - they seem to be alive at this point. One seems to be in very serious condition and on a ventilator but the attending ER doctor said no head trauma indicated and normal CO levels. I think there is reason to be quite optimistic.

[Musashi]

Your gander? What does that mean?

gan·der (găn'dər) pronunciation
n.

1. A male goose.
2. Informal. A look or glance: “Everyone turns and takes a gander at the yokels” (Garrison Keillor).
3. Informal. A simpleton; a ninny.

[Middle English, from Old English gandra.]

[Candy]

Gander in this case means DEAD. :(

[Candy]

I'll be optimistic. I'm not watching it, any longer.

[Cylinder]

I'll be optimistic. I'm not watching it, any longer.

Yikes! CNN just turned this story on its head. Now they are saying that 11 are dead from a single report. Take that with a grain of salt, but there is a person from inside the church describing a fairly bizzare scene (fistfights, screaming, etc..)

[Candy]

OMG, exploiting family! :mad:

[Candy]

OMG - 1 found alive

[Candy]

"I'm sick to my stomach" :(

[Candy]

Please, can we advertise death on national TV? Yeah, ratings.

[Candy]

:cry:

[Cl1mh4224rd]

Hmm... this might be why:
Breaking News: Despite earlier reports, family members in West Virginia now say only one trapped miner brought out alive. All 12 others dead.
http://www.cnn.com/

:(

Edit: Oops. Beaten to it.

[Candy]

This is why I never believe the media. :mad:

[Candy]

R.i.p.

[banquo's_bumble_puppy]

I come from Springhill, NS. Do a Google search "1958 bump". My family- 2 uncles (Dad's brothers)/Mom's first husband/my Aunt's husband. Something like this echoes for a long time. Very sad.

[Captain Kidd]

It looks like somebody only heard part of a communication, assumed wrong, and ran with it.

[International Coal Group Chief Executive Officer Ben] Hatfield said the erroneous information spread rapidly when people overheard phone calls between rescuers and the rescue command center. In reality, rescuers had confirmed finding 12 miners and were checking their vital signs, he said.

If only it had been the other way around. :sad:

[Jakenorrish]

I've been following this over in the UK, and am extremely sad, disapointed, and angry for the poor families who've lost their loved ones. I'll leave a full rant about it alone as we've yet to find out all of the facts, but the company new they'd released the wrong information for three hours before issuing a correction which is inexcusable.

[Doodler]

Who knew what and when, and how do you gently let the families know there was an error?

Given the nature of these accidents, optimism is self defeating. We were spoiled by the success of the last accident when everyone survived. Mining is a dangerous occupation, it entails a substantial amount of risk operating over two miles from daylight. If you cannot handle members of your family doing these risky jobs, allow me to suggest a divorce or a minor edit to the Christmas card lists? Its tragic when accidents occur, but people need to cram it in their selfish little minds that accidents will happen, its not an "If" scenario. You can mitigate the rate of accidents, you can take extraordinary precautions in the event of an accident, but you cannot prevent accidents from ever happening.

In a way, I wish accidents like these were more common. Exceptional records of safety lull average and unassociated people into forgetting just how dangerous this work is, and you get the ridiculous, flailing outrage over what should have been an throroughly considered outcome from day one. To think you're something special that will never suffer a loss associated with the business end of this industry, or ANY high risk job, is just head in cement stupid.

The ultimate moral of the story is that you are not entitled to a happy ending. Mourn your loved ones, sue the company, return the rest of us to our regularly scheduled programming already in progress. This sad situation doesn't need to be further slammed into the American consciousness to sooth the outraged egos of mourners with no clue of which they will be talking about.

[R.A.F.]

Who knew what and when, and how do you gently let the families know there was an error?

Well, when they realized their mistake they could have announced that they made a mistake instead of waiting...

Doodler, you are one cold fish...meaning that you seem to lack "empathy" for anyone else...as evidenced by labeling grieving family members stupid, or the post you made in the "passenger killed" thread from last month...


Mentally ill, eh? What can ya say about small calibre ammo, it cures what ails ya. I'm no believer in Eugenics, but if a 'tard's got enough brainpower to cause trouble, he's got enough brainpower to suffer the consequences.

Throw his body to the dogs.

See what I mean??

[Doodler]

Well, when they realized their mistake they could have announced that they made a mistake instead of waiting...

Who made the announcement? From what I've seen, it was the rescuers on site, not the company.

And yes, I'm a cold fish, because too often people let their emotions rule their responses to crisis, and reason takes a flight out the nearest window. The aftermath becomes a ridiculous game where the person who makes the most heads roll in retribution wins, and that I find disgusting. Human lives lost reduced to a paycheck to the families after a court dispute, instead of trying to understand what the heck happened, and how corrective action can save lives in the future. Oh no, the media lead, braindead culture that exists in this country has to pander to the howling moans of the family, trotting them out for the cameras to maximize the emotional content for ratings, then drag the company over the coals and rifle their pockets for a lottery ticket to assuage wounded hearts.

That's nauseating to me. 12 lives lost is a tragedy, that their lives will have no more meaning than to ensure the families have more money than they can responsibly handle, THAT MAKES ME SICK!!!!

[Doodler]

Hatfield said the miscommunication occurred between rescue crews and the command center, causing the earlier erroneous reports.

And for the answer to the 64 million dollar question, why not correct the mistake immediately?

Who survived? Which 11 families get to have their hearts broken, or do you torture them all by leaving them to wonder? Will this guy end up DOA and you end up with 13 dead afterall? Was the miscommunication such they were leaving open the possibility that more than just the one was actually alive? Piecemeal information can be worse than wrong information. Needless to say, it sounds like the rescuers drop the ball at the site, rather than the company. Garbage in to the Command Center, garbage out to the families.

And yet somehow, its the company's fault that the wrong announcement was made? :roll:

[R.A.F.]

12 lives lost is a tragedy, that their lives will have no more meaning than to ensure the families have more money than they can responsibly handle, THAT MAKES ME SICK!!!!

If memory serves, a number of the deceased miners were nearing retirement age...the surviving family members would only be entitled to the amount of money the miners would have made up until retirement...no pain and suffering, no "award" for sloppy standards, or the inconsiderate way the mining company handled this...

"More money than they can responsibily handle"? Not really...probably not that "much" money at all.

[gethen]

In a way, I wish accidents like these were more common. Exceptional records of safety lull average and unassociated people into forgetting just how dangerous this work is, and you get the ridiculous, flailing outrage over what should have been an throroughly considered outcome from day one.
Unfortunately, it seems that this particular mining company has no such record of safety. Every discussion I've seen suggests that this group was generally well below the norm in terms of safety violations on each and every inspection over recent years. So I'm expecting some hefty lawsuits by the families of those killed or injured.

[Doodler]

Unfortunately, it seems that this particular mining company has no such record of safety. Every discussion I've seen suggests that this group was generally well below the norm in terms of safety violations on each and every inspection over recent years. So I'm expecting some hefty lawsuits by the families of those killed or injured.

If thats the case, then I wish them luck in bringing those lawsuits, if they can prove it was the company's mismanagement that brought about the conditions that let this happen. Its likely, if what you say is true, but nothing is certain. There's still a lot that can go wrong that will result in the same outcome.

[Doodler]

SAGO, W.Va., Jan. 4 -- Great joy turned to deep sorrow and rage Wednesday morning when mining families here were told inaccurately that 12 of the 13 miners trapped in a coal mine were alive only to be informed, hours later, that they were in fact dead.

It was all the result of a "miscommunication," a mining company official said. He and others thought they heard a transmission from rescuers that the 12 were alive.


At least from the announcement standpoint, this is looking less malicious. An unclear transmission could confused "12 died" with "12 alive", especially if they were using those bloody handheld radios that sound like crap, even across a room.

[Captain Kidd]

Working from memory of NPR broadcasts, the company had 69ish safety violations two years ago. This jumped to over 200 last year. They're not the bottom of the pack, but they're not average either.

About the time the safety violations started to increase, an investment group bought the mine/company (they've been buying a bunch of the smaller mines). Tying anything together at this point would be pure speculation, but I'm curious what the investigation will turn up on procedure changes.

On the topic of you can't avoid accidents; that's defeatism, very few things are unavoidable. Nearly every accident can be avoided, but you've got to have everybody on board and fully concious of every action and all possible outcomes. That requires a lot of extra effort and has downsides of decreasing productivity as people take more time to do it safe and more expensive in training and maintenance/replacement of equipment.

[Jakenorrish]

Who knew what and when, and how do you gently let the families know there was an error?

Given the nature of these accidents, optimism is self defeating. We were spoiled by the success of the last accident when everyone survived. Mining is a dangerous occupation, it entails a substantial amount of risk operating over two miles from daylight. If you cannot handle members of your family doing these risky jobs, allow me to suggest a divorce or a minor edit to the Christmas card lists? Its tragic when accidents occur, but people need to cram it in their selfish little minds that accidents will happen, its not an "If" scenario. You can mitigate the rate of accidents, you can take extraordinary precautions in the event of an accident, but you cannot prevent accidents from ever happening.

In a way, I wish accidents like these were more common. Exceptional records of safety lull average and unassociated people into forgetting just how dangerous this work is, and you get the ridiculous, flailing outrage over what should have been an throroughly considered outcome from day one. To think you're something special that will never suffer a loss associated with the business end of this industry, or ANY high risk job, is just head in cement stupid.

The ultimate moral of the story is that you are not entitled to a happy ending. Mourn your loved ones, sue the company, return the rest of us to our regularly scheduled programming already in progress. This sad situation doesn't need to be further slammed into the American consciousness to sooth the outraged egos of mourners with no clue of which they will be talking about.

I think that you'll regret this rant a bit further down the line Doodler, if not for its content then for its timing. Like you also said, we don't know what happened as yet, it could be anyone's fault, so laying into people who do dangerous jobs then expect compensation as a result of accidents is bang out of order right now, especially as your latter messages are an attempt to back-track.

[tbm]

On C2C last night, after the initial "good" news, Sylvia Brown said that she knew the miners would be found. After the bad news broke, she said that she didn't say they were alive and intimated that she new they were not.

GRRRRR!!!!

To flip flop in a tragedy such as this to keep her "credibility" is one of those things that Sylvia MUST be held accountable for.

Does anyone have a transcript for last night's C2C show? (I refuse to give that show 2 cents).

Saddened and angry,

tbm

[Doodler]

Working from memory of NPR broadcasts, the company had 69ish safety violations two years ago. This jumped to over 200 last year. They're not the bottom of the pack, but they're not average either.

About the time the safety violations started to increase, an investment group bought the mine/company (they've been buying a bunch of the smaller mines). Tying anything together at this point would be pure speculation, but I'm curious what the investigation will turn up on procedure changes.

On the topic of you can't avoid accidents; that's defeatism, very few things are unavoidable. Nearly every accident can be avoided, but you've got to have everybody on board and fully concious of every action and all possible outcomes. That requires a lot of extra effort and has downsides of decreasing productivity as people take more time to do it safe and more expensive in training and maintenance/replacement of equipment.

That sentence right there proves my point. I don't care what companies print in their marketing rags, productivity is the prime objective. So long as there are minimum standards to maintain the right to operate, you're going to have companies riding that minimum line hard to try and keep productivity up.

At some point, you accept the risk or you don't, but the risk will always remains.

[Doodler]

If y'all think I'm a cold fish now, then swallow this hook, line and sinker.

How much responsibility do these 12 men share with the company for the accident that befell them? The company may set policy, but these are supposedly reasoned and intelligent men, with a lotta years of experience under their belts. You don't think they had a hand in the unsafe conditions that killed them? I doubt guys in suits where out there making conditions in that mine as dangerous as they supposedly were.

Ponder that, I'm going for a swim.

[Dragon Star]

I officially hate the media...

I just hate the way they pick one thing and run with it and make it such a big deal when other tragedy's happen and no one even hears about it, was it bad? Sure, but it is NOT any worse then the other things that happen elsewhere...

Makes my blood boil..:mad:

[Doodler]

I think it would have been covered a lot differently were it not for the possibility of survivors.

[R.A.F.]

How much responsibility do these 12 men share with the company for the accident that befell them? The company may set policy, but these are supposedly reasoned and intelligent men, with a lotta years of experience under their belts. You don't think they had a hand in the unsafe conditions that killed them?

We don't have any idea what happened...none whatsoever, yet you have no "qualms" about assigning blame??

Amazing....

[Doodler]

We don't have any idea what happened...none whatsoever, yet you have no "qualms" about assigning blame??

Amazing....

Nope, but I'm not ruling it out, either. If it is something they did, then shame on'em. Accidents like this don't happen in a vacuum. And the accusation wasn't directed anyway, I did state that if there were unsafe conditions in the mine that everyone employed in that mine shares responsibility for that unsafe condition.

[Captain Kidd]

Unfortunately that’s where shades of grey come into effect. I do have to agree with Doodler in that while the company sets the policy, the workers do share some of the weight of responsibility.

If the company has issued unsafe practices, then there are many avenues of response: complain to management, organize a union response in some way (negotiations, slowdown, strike, whatever), find a new job, etc.

However, that area is a really economically depressed area, jobs there, good paying or otherwise, aren’t exactly easy to come by and many probably can’t afford to relocate elsewhere.

Furthermore, there has been no investigation yet so there’s no telling what went wrong. Yes the company has a bad safety record, but that doesn’t automatically make it the fault of said record. Even though this is contrary to my previous post, accidents do happen and this might have been a purely accidental explosion like an electrical connection sparking in a gas pocket, somebody striking metal upon metal creating a spark in said proposed gas pocket, or a manufacturing defect in some piece of equipment that caused it to catastrophically fail. While I personally do lean towards it having something to do with the bad safety record, I’m not throwing blame at the workers or company right off the bat.

The 12 workers might have had nothing to do with the cause of the explosion. It might have been the shift before them or the maintenance department that set off a delayed event, in the root cause analysis world that’s termed a latent error. The 12 (13 I think actually isn’t it, one body was recovered right off the bat at the conveyor) workers killed would have had no knowledge that the machinery was repaired incorrectly.

There are too many unknowns to start slinging mud right now.

[Gillianren]

Doodler, I'm curious about something. Why do you think a lack of empathy is a good thing? After all, quite a few human tragedies could have been prevented by it, just as quite a few could have been prevented by reason.

[Candy]

I'm now lurking. This is a sensitive subject with workers and safety. I'm glad this made world news. Perhaps, folks will come forth with concerns in their everyday jobs. There are ways to promoting safety. There are better ways to handle these situations. I'm still sad for the lost beings. :(

[teddyv]

Unfortunately few people really understand mining. Underground coal mining is probably the most dangerous due to various factors including rock mechanics, dip of the coal seam, CO, methane and others as well. In general most hard rock mines are very safe. In my experience miners are exceptionally safety conscious and know the ground conditions better than any.

[Captain Kidd]

Yeah, our manager here about hired on with a WV mine and has many friends in the industry. He was talking about some of the issues. The particular mine he was interviewed for was a soft ground type with 48" headroom. Ever 50 yards (maybe it was feet) was a metal cage. The intent was that in case of a blowout (he described it as the shift air pressure drops too low and the walls literally implode), you might have a chance to get to a cage and hope the rescurers get to you before your 1 hour emergency air runs out. Not particularly a job I'd want.

[Doodler]

Doodler, I'm curious about something. Why do you think a lack of empathy is a good thing? After all, quite a few human tragedies could have been prevented by it, just as quite a few could have been prevented by reason.

I neither consider lack of empathy a good thing or not. Its just how I approach a situation. Empathy might be fantastic for preventing human tragedies, but its completely useless in deconstructing them. The minute you approach a situation like this with someone's interests or feelings in mind, you cloud your judgement with bias.

In none of this have I said that those 12 deaths were anything other than tragic. On the other hand, I am not immediately looking at them as victims, especially in light of working in an industrial environment myself and having had that culture of safety as a collective responsibility jammed in my head from day one. So as far as I'm concerned at the moment, if the mine was unsafe, and documentation to date indicates it was, then responsibility for this disaster is collective, even extending to the deceased and the survivor. Specifics will dictate who is directly responsible, but you cannot escape the fact that the record demonstrates a collective disregard for the rules. That is unempathic to the fallen, but its the clearminded answer as best as I understand the facts being presented.

[Obviousman]

I was disappointed to see the reactions of some people, complaining that the company didn't inform them for 20 minutes, and now talking about legal action.

You can imagine what happened. The company got the word that it was only ONE survivor.

"WHAT!? We understood that there were 12 survivors; that is what we have told the relatives and the media. I want solid confirmation on the status of those people. Triple check - I don't want to tell them they are dead, then find out they are alive, or some are alive. Confirm the status and get back to me ASAP!"

If the company has been negligent in safety, etc, then the families have every right to legal action. A mix up in communication is tragic - not a reason to sue.

The end result of this will be that information will NOT be passed onto families or media as quickly - because the spokespeople will want to confirm without doubt the validity of any information.

[Cl1mh4224rd]

It's not so much Doodler's "cold fish" attitude that's disgusting, I'm sure, but rather his apparent need to advertise it in just about every thread about some tragedy. He did this in the thread about the shooting at the airport, too.

I'm not suggesting you keep your mouth shut, Doodler, but I think it may be wise to show a little tact.

[Jakenorrish]

Agreed, especially seeing as though if a tragedy befell you, we'd all be the first to offer sympathy no matter who was to blame Doodler. Its what separates us from the rest of the animals.

[Nicolas]

I would leave out that last sentence.

[Monique]

I believe is time to ignore Doodler when he talk on such subjects. Perhaps he believe what he say. Perhaps he like to stir up anger of other people. It do not matter, if people do not talk for him, he have no excuse to say more.

[Doodler]

I believe is time to ignore Doodler when he talk on such subjects. Perhaps he believe what he say. Perhaps he like to stir up anger of other people. It do not matter, if people do not talk for him, he have no excuse to say more.

If you cannot handle an opinion that takes an opposite tack from yours, then feel free not to address it. No one is holding the proverbial gun to your head.

If you cannot handle that I do take a harsher stance while still posting within the limits of the forum rules, have them ban me anyway.

I don't live in a world of sweetness and light, I've come up learning to ask hard questions and I don't necessarily censor myself when the subject matter touches a sore spot. And I've definitely learned that sympathy is a really lousy companion to objectivity. I've been called a few other things here that skirt the limits of ad hominem, yet I've never once whined about it. I know where I stand, and I take my lumps when I walk against the current. You don't have to like my position, but better bloody well learn to respect it. I don't get harsh unless something I've encountered in the past, whether my point of view on the matter is right or wrong, has in some way affected my view of matters with respect to the current subject of debate. When I am shown to be wrong, I admit it, if I'm right, regardless of how cold my approach is, I won't back off my position, no matter how unpopular it happens to be.

There are a lot of things I see in the world that annoy the heck out of me, aside from the hard set rules here that I've obeyed to the letter and spirit, regardless of driving emotion, I've never censored myself in expressing that annoyance. I don't play games with the rules, if I've got something to say thats on the edge, I'll walk openly to that edge and stop at that limit, rather than play some game of hide and seek with the moderators. I'd sooner display irritation openly and have it dissected as such, because for all I know, I could be wrong.

In the time I've posted here, whenever I've posted in a contentious manner, it has almost always been contention over the content of a thread, only once have I ever come close to open hostility with someone else here, and when called on it, I backed off, never to repeat that mistake, even though I've had a number of thread discussions with that person since then. If anyone here takes anything I post personally, get the heck out of my way or prove me wrong, you are not my intended target. Some subjects bother me, no one here personally does.

[TriangleMan]

I believe is time to ignore Doodler when he talk on such subjects. Perhaps he believe what he say. Perhaps he like to stir up anger of other people. It do not matter, if people do not talk for him, he have no excuse to say more.
That would be a shame, I find opinions such as Doodler's, whether I agree with them or not, to be the only thing of interest in 'sympathy' threads.

[SolusLupus]

That would be a shame, I find opinions such as Doodler's, whether I agree with them or not, to be the only thing of interest in 'sympathy' threads.

(edited because, quite frankly, I don't want to go there).

Look, my problems are that Doodler's remarks are, quite frankly, personal, generic, and very offensive. There is no reason for him to phrase what he says the way he says them, and they should, quite frankly, break the Civility and Decorum rules. That's all I have to say on the subject.

Other than that, I'm going to avoid this subject.

[Gillianren]

I didn't appreciate being referred to as a "'tard" just because I'm mentally ill, I can tell you that.

[Monique]

My friend also have mental illness. He is not "tard" he respond to medication!! He is wonderful man!!! :mad:

[Van Rijn]

While Doodler has had good points before, in my opinion many of his posts appear to be highly emotional, showing much anger and a substantial lack of objectivity. Posts like that don't impress me.

[Dragon Star]

I didn't appreciate being referred to as a "'tard" just because I'm mentally ill, I can tell you that.

Are you kidding, or are you serious? Sorry just don't pick up any sarcasm on that...and you certainly don't seem like an ill person...:eh:

[SolusLupus]

Are you kidding, or are you serious? Sorry just don't pick up any sarcasm on that...and you certainly don't seem like an ill person...:eh:

That's why there's such thing as medication, as well as mental care.

I personally have a learning disorder; I'm ADHD. Without medication, I was all over the place. Today, I still am, though quitting coca cola has given me focus (or it's all in my mind, but whatever), though I still don't take medication.

And yes, I really did have ADHD. I wasn't an easily written off case, I had MRIs and everything showing that I had a mental disorder. Though it's rather minor, it still deterred my behavior enough to greatly affect personal relationships I had, as well as my learning abilities.

I think Gillian has gone into her mental illness, but I'm too hyper to remember :p Or she doesn't, and she was talking in a more figurative way...

In which case, I'll go hide in a bunker. See yas!

[Dragon Star]

Well, I just asked because I sometimes say what I don't mean, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone at any time, I would feel so bad if I hurt someones feelings...:(

[SolusLupus]

Well, I just asked because I sometimes say what I don't mean, and I certainly don't want to offend anyone at any time, I would feel so bad if I hurt someones feelings...:(

Relax, relax, I was just rambling as I'm wont to do. No insult taken on this end, at least. I was just saying that a "mentally ill" person can lead a completly normal life, when taking the proper steps and precautions. Also, "illness" is a catch-all word. A lot of potential illnesses fall in that one word, so some illness will naturally be more powerful than others.

[Dragon Star]

Relax, relax, I was just rambling as I'm wont to do. No insult taken on this end, at least. I was just saying that a "mentally ill" person can lead a completly normal life, when taking the proper steps and precautions. Also, "illness" is a catch-all word. A lot of potential illnesses fall in that one word, so some illness will naturally be more powerful than others.

Well, I mean not just you (your not the only person in the world you know!:p) But everyone, I have said things in the past whilst not thinking about it and got into a lot of trouble for discrimination, so I try my best to be careful as I can now that I know how people feel about simple comments, which may not mean a thing to me (such as an everyday word) but may mean the world to someone else. Such as Monique, she was quite taken by that comment, and was sure to let everyone know, and I would expect the same. Just want to let everyone be aware that I mean no harm, but if I do hurt someones feelings, tell me about it so I know what I did and so I can properly apologize for my misconduct. Because I love everyone here at the BA Forums!:D

It seems I have hijacked the thread, my apologies, just had to get that out there.

[SolusLupus]

Well, I mean not just you (your not the only person in the world you know!:p)

:(

[Dragon Star]

:(

:( Aww..now I feel bad...:cry:

;)

[Gillianren]

Are you kidding, or are you serious? Sorry just don't pick up any sarcasm on that...and you certainly don't seem like an ill person...:eh:

Oh, no, quite serious. I'm manic depressive. They put me on Zoloft, which seems to have, among its other nasty side effects, made me more depressed. I see my (lousy) shrink in a few days, at which point I will insist upon switching meds, and we'll see.

I'm not dangerous (much). I'm not delusional. I'm not healthy. Ideally, we will eventually find the meds that work for me, and I won't have such radical mood swings, either. There are thousands of people like me. We just don't get the press the dangerously ill ones do.

[SolusLupus]

Also, ideally, we'll be able to cure all mental illnesses without need of medication. Though that might take a while.

[Candy]

Can we change the title of this thread? It just makes me very sad. :cry:

[Dragon Star]

Also, ideally, we'll be able to cure all mental illnesses without need of medication. Though that might take a while.

You mean with "Stem Cells" or something like that?
------
Good luck with your meds Gillianren, I hope the best for you in your search for great health, your quite the trooper. :clap:

[SolusLupus]

You mean with "Stem Cells" or something like that?

With nanomachines, with bioengineering, with knowledge of how to stabilize the mind in a more permanent fashion (with, ideally, no side effects).

[LurchGS]

Why is Doodler getting hammered here? Because he expresses an unpopular stand, he gets pounded into the dust?

I grant you, he'll never be ambasador to "IHateAmerica", but his initial post to this thread was relatively calm, but when people started getting up in his face, he responded.

His post - to me, at least - was an argument against A) blazing the grieving families across the media in the name of a buck. B) people flying off the handle and assessing blame without knowing a thing of what was going on. Being his normal impolitic self, he expressly didn't exclude the victim's families from B.

I won't go into why I think the incorrect news was passed without confirmation. I'll just let it stand that it's likely exactly what Doodler is expressing anger against. Somebody or somebodies got way excited and ran with what he hoped to hear, rather than what was actually said. Emotions got involved and as a result, a lot of people got hurt. Sure, they were going to get hurt anyway, but dropping a bowling ball on my foot hurts a lot less if I don't pick it up to head-height first.

Situations like this are part of the reason that professional search and rescuers DON'T put stuff like that in clear language. We use a code phrase that's set up ahead of time. Something like "we need a 40-foot crawler" for instance, could be used to communicate "we've found somebody", and a further phrase to communicate the health. (please bear in mind - that's just a quick example...) The point is, people at both ends of the circuit have to THINK about what was said, and get a grip on their emotions before they start pinging off the walls. (it has the added advantage of meaning zip do dah to people who are not directly involved with the effort. I would not have been in the least bit surprised to learn that some outside agency heard the first notification and passed bad info to the families. It's happened before)

Accidents DO happen. Some jobs are more dangerous than others because more accidents are LIKELY to happen. Accidents WILL happen, no matter what we do. We do not posses 'never break' technology. (yet) Even when we do, accidents will continue to happen.

(oh, and just for the record, the most dangerous civilian job is crabbing in the Bering Sea. The most dangerous peacetime military job (i.e. not in the line of fire) is on the flight deck of a carrier)

I do disagree with him to an extent on his anger directed at the victim's families - I would be more irritated at you if you dropped the bowling ball from head-height, after you'd put it back on the rack. I think he misunderstood, at least in part, the anguish of the families. Sure there was the expected wailing, but I didn't see any of it directed at the company for causing the deaths of the miners. I saw the families being angry over the communications issue (I daresay I would have been so, also) - I think that's perfectly reasonable.

[Candy]

I'm behind Doodler almost 100%. He really speaks my mind. I kind of said that in "another" thread. I don't like the name of this thread any longer. I am unsubcribing before my "redhead" temper gets the "best of you". See you!

Oh yeah, the men in the mine were supposedly alive for 10 hours. RIP :(

[Dragon Star]

That was well said Lurch. Great job.

[SolusLupus]

It's not that his opinion is contrary to what I believe, it's how he expresses it. I don't see how "tards" can be allowed on these boards, when people get suspended for much lighter insults.

I'm unsubscribing to this thread.

[Wolverine]

Sorry I didn't catch this thread earlier. Sigh.

People need not get so personal with one another.

[ToSeek]

I changed the title. It was bothering me, too.

[beskeptical]

Why is Doodler getting hammered here? Because he expresses an unpopular stand, he gets pounded into the dust?"tards" does rate some negative response. Perhaps in context he was describing behavior. It's a stretch.

But getting back on topic if possible...

Accidents DO happen. Some jobs are more dangerous than others because more accidents are LIKELY to happen. Accidents WILL happen, no matter what we do. We do not posses 'never break' technology. (yet) Even when we do, accidents will continue to happen.
While some events called accidents might be truly unavoidable, (a lightning strike on a cloudless day comes to mind), the vast majority of so called accidents occur after non-accidental circumstances led up to the event.

We humans sometimes have a hard time recognizing that fact. And, when you can blame someone else we scream loudly, but if we are to blame then it's an accident.

I see both elements in this case. I'll bet the company took many chances and didn't take the risk seriously. There was one violation at least for failure to monitor methane gas build up adequately.

But from my experience in occupational health, I'll bet the miners themselves were lax on safety issues as well. Whether the things the miners were lax about contributed may or may not have occurred in this case. But I doubt you could find many work sites where safety was an employee priority.

How many of you wear seat belts in vehicles and how many of you have working smoke alarms in your homes? These are my famous examples.

On the job, if you are in a big building, how many of you know more than one fire exit? There are a million questions that could be asked here. I'll bet very few of you are big on safety and accident prevention.

[Monique]

I believe is wrong time to be insensitive when people grieve. Perhaps fault belong to many, but loved ones grieve. Give people chance to recover. Spouses and children of dead miners suffer, but may not be aware of safety concerns.

[HenrikOlsen]

I believe is wrong time to be insensitive when people grieve. Perhaps fault belong to many, but loved ones grieve. Give people chance to recover. Spouses and children of dead miners suffer, but may not be aware of safety concerns.
The time to be insensitive is when people try to relieve grief by assigning blame.

[Monique]

The time to be insensitive is when people try to relieve grief by assigning blame.
I agree. I find habit of Doodler to shout first very ugly.

[beskeptical]

The time to be insensitive is when people try to relieve grief by assigning blame.So if a person experiencing the loss of a loved one moves into the anger stage of grieving you'd pass judgment?

I believe anger at such a time is a pretty natural response.

There are two separate things here. One is grief. The other is learning from the mistakes that have been made countless times. The families and friends can grieve. I'd like to think challenging the discounting of accidents as unavoidable might change at least one person's behavior. :)

[HenrikOlsen]

I'd pass judgement on whether the anger is misdirected or not, yes.

[Gillianren]

I'd pass judgement on whether the anger is misdirected or not, yes.

Psychologically speaking, all grieving anger tends to be misdirected. Quite often, for example, the grieving person is angry at the dead person. This tends to occur whether or not the dead person bears any responsibility for their own death--murder victims, people hit by drunk drivers, people killed by genetic conditions, etc. The grieving person will (usually!) get over their anger, but it is natural to want to find someone to blame, even if whoever's getting blamed isn't responsible. However, lawsuits resulting from blame placed during the grieving process are fair game for judgement of at least the lawyers.

[beskeptical]

I'd pass judgement on whether the anger is misdirected or not, yes.I think in the grieving process the anger is almost always misdirected because there usually isn't any real thing people can direct their anger at. At least there isn't always someone or thing to blame. The anger in the grieving process is not necessarily rational.

[beskeptical]

Psychologically speaking, all grieving anger tends to be misdirected. Quite often, for example, the grieving person is angry at the dead person. This tends to occur whether or not the dead person bears any responsibility for their own death--murder victims, people hit by drunk drivers, people killed by genetic conditions, etc. The grieving person will (usually!) get over their anger, but it is natural to want to find someone to blame, even if whoever's getting blamed isn't responsible. However, lawsuits resulting from blame placed during the grieving process are fair game for judgement of at least the lawyers.Said better than I. I should have read your thread entry before answering the one above.

[Gillianren]

Said better than I. I should have read your thread before answering the one above.

Well, I do have the advantage of having "seven stages of grief" recited at me since I was six, you know.