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JimO
22-February-2003, 03:04 PM
February 22:

Dear Mr. René:

I wanted to send you another copy of this in case the first was lost in the mail, or your reply was lost. I’ve tried to raise rational, technical questions related to my investigation of some of your charges. I intend to discuss this exchange of letters in my forthcoming book and want to make sure that your views and actions are reported accurately.

If there are any questions you sent to me that you feel were inadequately answered, please ask me again and I promise to make another response.

I hope you can respond constructively because there are more specific topics I’d like to pursue with you, once we’ve established a workable dialog. For example, your discussion of your calculations of the thermodynamics of a lunar spacesuit describes how you interpret the cooling system as dumping waste heat (and solar-induced heat) by cooling a water supply and then freezing it. I believe you have this entirely backwards: the suit cools itself and its contents by heating water and then evaporating it, a process in which each gram of water carries off several times as much heat as the way you described it, and with the correct plus/minus sign as well. Whoever taught you physics apparently didn’t do a very good job, I’m afraid.

And in the final ‘gotcha’ of your book – the strongest argument ("I saved this for last because it is the greatest ‘Gotcha’ of them all" (page 150), you appear to make the assumption that the Moon’s gravity is inadequate all by itself of turning the Apollo-13’s trajectory back towards Earth, and that the Apollo-13 would have needed to brake itself into lunar orbit, then fire engines again to return to Earth. "I am having a problem with NASA’s analysis... If you skim by the Moon you are still going away from the Earth. If your velocity is high you will then go a damn long way past the Moon before you will lose all velocity and then be sucked back toward it... How the hell did they rub off all that velocity? ... GOTCHA, NASA!" Do I understand the essence of your complaint accurately?

Awaiting your response, and ready to accurately and fully describe it in my book,

Jim Oberg

------------------------To: Ralph René, 31 Burgess Place, Passaic, NJ 07055------------------------

January 30, 2003

Dear Mr. René:

This letter supplements the one I mailed two days ago, but concentrates on the single issue of the "Collins EVA Image". I am focusing on this issue because YOU chose to make it your lead-off argument in your book, and to establish that NASA has a policy of falsifying photographs, of ‘lying’. In the book you returned to it several times later, and have mentioned it during interviews.

I have been able to confirm your assertion that the undeniable altered zero-G airplane training image – reversed and with background blacked out – is indeed in the photo insert of the 1975 Ballantine paperback of Collins' 'Carrying the Fire'. There is one photo insert, 8 pieces of paper (16 sides), between 238 and 239. I have the 1974 hardcover edition from Farrar, Straus, and Giroux, which has an 8-page photo insert between pages 196 and 197, a 4-page insert between pages 358 and 359, and another 4-page photo insert between pages 422 and 423. The altered image there is on the ‘second frontispiece’, just after a two-page spread of moon craters out the window.

You had written: "I will bet you $10,000 that I can produce these photos in situ in an 8 page photo section (16) photos between pages 238 & 239. But maybe I not only lie, cheat and steal but I bluff too." There is no need for such a bet because I can verify your statement about finding the images.

The very first picture in the Ballantine photo insert is an EVA suit against a complete black background. It has no caption and no description. 4 pages later there is a very similar picture, but only the bottom is black and above him you can see the zero G airplane interior. The caption of this one is "The zero-G airplane - sickening". The suit looks exactly the same. The first image is unquestionably derived from the second image.

First question: Where does Collins or anyone else allege that this image shows him on his EVA, as you state that he does and is this "a liar". Please provide citation to the book’s text or to any public statements made by Collins in discussing his book. You write that the picture was "allegedly taken during a space walk". Please cite that allegation. Would you be willing to bet $10,000 that you can find such explicit evidence?

Second question: where does NASA present this image as portraying the Gemini-10 EVA? Is there any press release photograph, any publication, any non-NASA publication citing NASA as source of this image, any website, that presents this image with NASA’s explicit description of it as showing the Gemini-10 EVA. You claim they have done so, and your exact words: "Why did NASA feel it necessary to fake pictures and lie to us as early as July 1966?" Please cite exactly where this lie originally occurred. Would you be willing to bet $10,000 that you can find such explicit evidence?

Third question: If in fact there is no documention for either Collins or NASA asserting that this image is an actual photograph of the Gemini-10 EVA, how can you allege that they IMPLIED it when in fact Collins explicitly states (on page 254 of the Ballantine edition) that there WERE no photographs of his EVA: "One of the great disappointments of the flight was that there were no photos of my spacewalk. [...] All we had was the film from one movie camera, [...] which recorded an uninterrupted sequence of black sky [...] I was really feeling sorry for myself, unable to produce graphic documentation for my grandchildren of my brief sally as a human satellite [...]" Therefore, by Collin's own account, can’t we conclude that any picture of him in a spacesuit is not that of the Gemini EVA?

What do you see that is sinister in this? Presumably they wanted an illustration of what the EVA looked like for the front of the original book, and since no photos of the real EVA were available, somebody at the publisher’s office re-touched the training photo they had, and mirrored it to make it look better given its position in the book. I can find not one single attempt to pass this off as an in-flight photograph, and in fact the text explicitly states that there *are* no flight pictures. Honestly, if they *were* trying to pass it off as real, it would be really stupid to include the training picture from which it was derived just a few pages later.

Can you clarify and defend your allegations and accusations about deliberate lies about this image? If not, as a man of intelligence and integrity, can you alter your judgment on this particular historical issue, based on verifiable evidence, or lack thereof? Or do you want to accept some wagers regarding such evidence?

Jim Oberg, Rt 2 Box 350, Dickinson, TX 77539

aporetic_r
22-February-2003, 03:47 PM
So he never responded to your previous letter?! What a surprise. Repeatedly noting that you will discuss the attempted letter exchange in your book is a good move, although I doubt it will sway him to respond. If you end up having to write something like "although I made repeated attempts to contact Rene by mail [see figures 2.1 and 2.2], I never received a response," that is certainly better for him than if you have his responses and easily debunk them. It seems that a lack of response is further, if circumstantial, evidence that he knows he is wrong.

Aporetic

johnwitts
23-February-2003, 10:35 PM
But he will still continue to claim that NASA is ignoring his questions...

JimO is probably as close to official NASA that anyone is going to get, yet he refuses to enter into a dialogue... funny that.

JayUtah
23-February-2003, 11:20 PM
Since NASA selected Jim to write the official response, I imagine whatever Jim has to say will be just fine.

Ralph Rene's physics teacher was Ralph Rene. "The blind leading the blind" comes to mind. Sure, well-motivated people can teach themselves physics, but without an academic credential the only way we know how well he absorbed it is how well he can do physics. Since he can't seem to do physics, I guess he'd better put himself back in the remedial class.

Rene's orbital mechanics teacher was also Ralph Rene.

It's the Ralph Rene School of Applied Pseudoscience. Apply now, operators standing by.

Irishman
24-February-2003, 04:22 AM
aporetic, who was it that said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt,"?

aporetic_r
24-February-2003, 02:08 PM
On 2003-02-23 23:22, Irishman wrote:
aporetic, who was it that said, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt,"?


I'm pretty sure that was Abe Lincoln, who didn't teach Ralph Rene physics, orbital mechanics, or anything else.

Aporetic

jrkeller
24-February-2003, 02:22 PM
Try this for the origin of your quote.

http://ask.yahoo.com/ask/20010115.html

JimO
09-March-2003, 04:40 AM
Just to provide an update -- no surprise, but Rene has not replied to that letter I sent more than two weeks ago.

The Bad Astronomer
09-March-2003, 05:07 AM
After the Fox show aired, Rene sent me several emails in a row. As I was being inundated with thousands of emails at the time I wasn't able to get to his for a few days.

Each letter he sent got ruder and ruder (shocker). He then sent me US mail (thankfully to an old address which was forwarded) with many of the same silly arguments. One was about how hot a hammer got in the sunlight, implying that the Apollo spacecraft would get too hot in space.

I finally emailed him back asking if he though black pavement got hotter than white pavement, and he never replied.

JayUtah
09-March-2003, 05:15 AM
He's probably busy, picking out a crow to eat.

Okay, likely not. I'm sure he's used to people criticizing him. My experience with these types is that once they realize that you're out of their league they go silent and hope you go away.

Nice article on MSNBC about the STS resupply options, by the way.

calliarcale
10-March-2003, 09:47 PM
On 2003-03-09 00:07, The Bad Astronomer wrote:
I finally emailed him back asking if he though black pavement got hotter than white pavement, and he never replied.


There is a sort of weird perfection in that. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_wink.gif It's the way all of those people operate; when you point out something patently obvious that refutes their argument, they simply pretend they didn't hear you. My grandma does that, actually, though never on science issues. She does that when people are trying to say they had a nice time at her party but need to get going now. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif My mom calls it "selective hearing" -- the tendency of the pathologically stubborn to disregard so completely the things that they don't want to hear that they actually *won't* hear them, no matter how loud you shout.

JimO
21-March-2003, 05:15 AM
The prediction about NOT hearing things they don't want to acknowledge has come true. Here is my latest exchange of letters. Note that his letter of March 15 just pretended that my questions about the Collins 'EVA photograph' had never existed.

-----

March 20, 2003
Dear Mr. René:

Thank you very much for your letter dated 3/15/03, which arrived today:

“Something interesting walked by me last week. On page 90 of the Oct. 2001 issue of ‘Scientific American’ there is a story about space suit development for Mars. This is a direct quote: ‘At the same time, though, they must protect against the intense radiation that bathes the Red Planet.’

“Just for the hell of it I find that whatever is considered intense on Mars must be at least 2.37 times greater on the Moon because it is closer to the Sun from which most radiation flows. Unless of course Mars has a magneto-sphere then the radiation on the magneto-sphere free Moon would be much higher.”

I accept your suggestion that we discuss this issue next. We can begin as soon as we have reached a resolution of the subject that I first raised with you, your accusation of NASA fraud concerning the Michael Collins “EVA photograph” used in his book. In case the letters describing these issues went astray or have been misplaced, I attached a copy of the text below.

Please respond to the questions that I raised that directly addressed specific claims made in your book. Once you have done so, I will be happy to reciprocate regarding your questions raised in the current letter. Then it will be my turn to raise an issue, and it will deal with topics that I briefly described in my same letters, below.

Thank you for continuing the dialogue.

Jim Oberg

JayUtah
21-March-2003, 02:53 PM
Almost every conspiracy theorist I have directly contacted employs this same tactic. I simply cannot keep them on a subject long enough to provide assuring evidence of their claims, or to admit they have none.

Keep after him, Jim. I can't wait to read your book.