Islamic calendar(s)

[grant hutchison]

I've been doing some research on the Islamic calendar, and have run into three basic means by which month-length is determined.
1) The tabular Islamic calendar, which uses a format that repeats every 30 Islamic years, with alternating months of 30 and 29 days duration, and intercalated days 11 years out of 30. It's neat, and it's accurate to about a day in 2500 years, but some sources say that it is in general use for the civic calendar, and others imply that it is hardly used at all.
2) More complex astronomical calculations, such as the Umm al-Qura calendar used for civic purposes in Saudi Arabia. Months vary between 29 and 30 days in length in a deterministic but not particularly transparent way. The conventions of Umm al-Qura have changed a couple of times in recent years, to bring them closer to (but not into alignment with) the religious calendar.
3) The religious calendar, which is tightly tied to the observation of the first crescent of new moon at sunset (the hilal). A new month is triggered when the crescent is actually seen (or, if I understand things correctly, after the 30th day of the old month if clouds have prevented observation). Months vary between 29 and 30 days in a way influenced by the weather, by the observers, and by the latitude and longitude of observation. More westerly observers may see the hilal while easterly observers do not.

So there are at least three systems which average out to the same length for a lunar month, but which may be a couple of days adrift from each other for any given month.
What I'm hoping is:
1) People will correct me if I'm wrong about any of the above.
2) People who have worked in this calendrical system can give me some idea of how it all works in practice.
If you buy a diary or a calendar, it is presumably based on one of the deterministic calendars. Does the calendar of choice vary from country to country?
If you make an appointment, particularly an international appointment, do you make it according to an agreed calendar, or do you stipulate a day of the week and an approximate date? ("I'll meet you on the third yaum al-ithnayn in Safar.")
For religious purposes, to what extent are local hilal observations used, and to what extent do Muslim communities defer to a regional or international standard, such as Mecca?
If a date is provided in a historical text, how (if at all) does one determine the exact date meant?
... and anything else you think is interesting or important on this topic.

Thanks in advance for any input!

Grant Hutchison

[Vaelroth]

This is just speculation, but I would believe that for religious purposes observation of the hilal would be based on the observation from Mecca so that there is a unified standard within Muslim communities. My personal understanding of any lunar calendar is that it seems more useful than the solar calendar so long as one standard is used. Its much like the metric system to me, it just makes more sense than the empirical system.

I'm quite interested in the more informed responses as well, thanks for asking this question Grant! You have a better understanding of the Islamic lunar calendar than I do and I've already learned a lot from your question.

[Knowledge_Seeker]

I am a Muslim. But i hate to bring your hopes down, but im just 14 and i dont know much about the calendar system.

In my community, for day to day purposes, we use the (correct me if im wrong) the Gergorian Calendar. Honestly i didnt know there were three different Islamic calenders, i only knew if the observational one

Well in my community, the observational calender is mostly used for prayer purposes. Like prayer times, and dates of religious holidays. But during times of religious holidays, whew! It gets real confusing. Because 95% of the time, there is a disagreement on what day a religious holiday is. For example there is debate on whether using telescopes follow the religious rules, and whether we should base the days according to observations made in Mecca.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

But may i say that grant, you have made an interesting question. But i have a question myself for the Gregorian Calender. I know what B.C and A.D are but what about the time period during Christ's life? there is the time before christ, and after christ. but what about during his lifetime? im not sure how old christ was when he died, but then shouldnt that mean if he died when he was 40, means that today, it should be 2046?

[Jens]

But may i say that grant, you have made an interesting question. But i have a question myself for the Gregorian Calender. I know what B.C and A.D are but what about the time period during Christ's life? there is the time before christ, and after christ. but what about during his lifetime? im not sure how old christ was when he died, but then shouldnt that mean if he died when he was 40, means that today, it should be 2046?

No, AD starts on the year he was supposedly born. So there is no gap. Lots of people believe that AD means "after death," but it doesn't. It means "anno domini", which translates as "the year of our lord."

[Knowledge_Seeker]

No, AD starts on the year he was supposedly born. So there is no gap. Lots of people believe that AD means "after death," but it doesn't. It means "anno domini", which translates as "the year of our lord."

THANK YOU SO MUCH! that helps so much! now only if i can remember the words anno domini. guess i should just type it a bunch of times......
anno domini anno domini anno domini.............

EDIT: oh yeah could you tell me what language anno domini originates from?

EDIT: and could someone tell me the main pronounciation? because i found a-non dom-in-eye and a-non don-in-e

[Vaelroth]

Jens: Not quite in the year of Christ's birth since it can't actually be pinpointed. Roman records are good, but they aren't THAT good, espescially from provinces.

The Gregorian Calendar switches between BCE (Before Common Era) and CE (Common Era) around the fifth or sixth year of Jesus of Nazareth's life. BC and AD are well and good for their use since they are the most widely known, but they aren't PC (Politically Correct) as many would say. Because of that, most writers have switched over to BCE and CE to prevent themselves from offending anyone.

Note: I've noticed many Christians arguing for the interpretation of BCE and CE as "Before Christian Era" and "Christian Era" even though the dates don't line up right.

Knowledge Seeker: Anno Domini is Latin, dead language but still used in the archaic practices of justice and medicine (sorry, couldn't resist). The pronunciation is roughly "annoh doh-mee-nee" I exaggerated it a bit so you could get the sounds right.

Also, you could put your nickname to use in your community and look pretty intelligent by doing so to solve some of those disputes about dates. Tell your neighbors and friends that Mecca is where our faith was delivered to the prophet and that, because we pray in the direction of Mecca we should base the dates of our holidays off of where our faith began.

[Knowledge_Seeker]

Tell your neighbors and friends that Mecca is where our faith was delivered to the prophet and that, because we pray in the direction of Mecca we should base the dates of our holidays off of where our faith began.

Did you say 'our'? so you are also a Muslim?

[P. Edward Murray]

This is interesting because there is this guy on sci.astro.amateur that always posts his "Hilal sighting"stuff and I'm wondering if anyone here knows about this guy:

*** HILAL (Crescent Moon) SIGHTING, Evening of Sun/Mon 12/13 Dec ...
Follow up: sci.astro.amateur Bismillah hir-Rahman nir-Rahim (In the Name of ALLAH,
THE MOST BENEFICENT, THE MOST MERCIFUL) HILAL (Crescent Moon) SIGHTINGS ...

Does anyone use this guys site?

[The Saint]

The Christian calendar has its years correctly calculated, but not the months. The 365 days of the year are arbitrarily divided into twelve months, which themselves have no relation to the orbit of the moon.

The Moslem calendar has correct months, but incorrect years. They simply make the twelve lunar months into a year of 354 days, which is eleven short. The result is that their festivals are not bound to the seasons of the year, and keep shifting, Ramadan is in spring one year, then winter, and in summer the next. Could this be partly responsible for the volatility in the Muslim world?

Since the destruction of the 2nd Temple when the months were announced by direct observation, the Jewish calendar has used an intercalary month which seems to have been pretty accurate, not requiring any changes for almost 2000 years.

[grant hutchison]

OK, thanks Knowledge_Seeker: that's just the sort of local detail I'm interested in. Looks like your questions about Anno Domini have been answered before I got back.
May I ask if you live in a Moslem country, or are part of a Moslem community in a predominantly non-Muslim country? (I'm interested by the fact that you use the Gregorian calendar day-to-day: another of the things I wonder about is to what extent the Gregorian calendar is becoming generally used for secular purposes.)

BTW: If you don't want to answer my question, then don't. I won't hassle you. I'm aware that people your age are rightly cautioned against giving out personal details, and you should just do what you're comfortable with.

Grant Hutchison

[Vaelroth]

Did you say 'our'? so you are also a Muslim?

I use 'our' for my own personal reasons. PM me if you're really interested to hear them, they can be enlightening even if they're based on a philosophy of distancing oneself from religious differences and forming a unified concept of self between all persons. Its just something not fit for the forums here.

[jkmccrann]

Taking a peek at the top-right hand corner of his post, I think he lives in Chicago Grant.

So not even in Dearborn.

[MadConflux]

Knowledge-Seeker & Vaelroth, I think it's very interesting, these other "standards" of time-keeping (apart from our ludicrous "Jesus" standard). The historicity of "Jesus Christ" is not a proven fact, so why do we keep the "B.C." / "A.D." timekeep? I can only guess because of blind fear of divergence from established Western "Tradition".

Which, when you get down to it, boils down to a terrible fear of Death. :silenced:

[jkmccrann]

We obviously haven't always kept our calendar in relation to Christ, only for the last 1200/1300 years or so. Obviously at the time of Christ the calendar was based on the founding of Rome by Romulus & Remus.

I don't think keeping the current calendar has anything to do with a blind fear of divergence, or a `terrible fear of Death,' its just more practical. Are you suggesting we should be chaning the basis of our calenday every few generations? It would make comparing timeperiods an absolute nightmare. So what if our calendar has a religious origin? How does that really effect anyone?

And as has been stated before, BC & AD are in the name of political correctness being slowly phased out - doesn't bother me either way - its not going to effect my religious beliefs 1 iota.

[MadConflux]

So what if our calendar has a religious origin? How does that really effect anyone?

It affects EVERYONE. We should, instead, base it on something scientific, something observable, like some supernova or something (off the top of my head). That way, children can grow up with Science in their brains, not fairy tales. Yes?

At the moment we have similar to "The year is 2006 A.S.D. (After Santa Claus)". I don't think it takes much for children today to see through the hypocrisy, and thus they will reject ALL teaching & knowledge (from adults). We adults must set an example, a rationalist example.

Otherwise this race dies out.

[formulaterp]

Wow, I think you're skirting the line between what is acceptable or not regarding the discussion of religion on these boards, but I'd hate to see this otherwise interesting thread get locked.

Using a supernova as a starting point is just as arbitrary. I suppose the Big Bang would be the obvious starting point, but good luck pinning the exact date down.

[The_Radiation_Specialist]

I suppose the Big Bang would be the obvious starting point, but good luck pinning the exact date down.

and i dont think anybody would like to have the year 13,786,672,526 as the year of birth.

[grant hutchison]

Taking a peek at the top-right hand corner of his post, I think he lives in Chicago Grant.Hah. :doh:
Thanks. :)
I guess I'm so used to people omitting their location or entering whimsical stuff, I just never look.

Grant Hutchison

[grant hutchison]

Wow, I think you're skirting the line between what is acceptable or not regarding the discussion of religion on these boards ...I think you've crossed it, MadConflux. Please choose somewhere else to voice these opinions, since I believe you're violating posting rules on this forum, and I'd really prefer not to have my thread locked down just as it's getting interesting.
Could I also ask people to avoid remarks like the following?Could this be partly responsible for the volatility in the Muslim world?I've no intention of accusing The Saint of making deliberately provocative comments, but it seems to me this could easily be interpreted as inflammatory.

It's a calendar thread, folks. :)
I also find the Gregorian calendar interesting, and I'll willingly start a thread on that if people want to discuss it in a non-religious way. But in the meantime does anyone have anything else to say specifically relating to the Islamic calendar and how it is operated?

Grant Hutchison

[The_Radiation_Specialist]

If you buy a diary or a calendar, it is presumably based on one of the deterministic calendars. Does the calendar of choice vary from country to country?

Yes it does vary from country to country. Malaysia and Indonesia both use the Gregorian Calendar for almost all purposes. Iran has its own Solar calendar which starts in the first day of spring. Calendars in Iran usually show three different (Islamic, Iranian and Gregorian) dates. The Islamic Calendar is mostly used in countries where the common language is Arabic.

If you make an appointment, particularly an international appointment, do you make it according to an agreed calendar, or do you stipulate a day of the week and an approximate date? ("I'll meet you on the third yaum al-ithnayn in Safar.")

AFAIK International appointments (with non-Arabic countries) are all given in Gregorian calendar. Its not uncommon to see many Islamic calendars include Gregorian dates as well for that particular date.

For religious purposes, to what extent are local hilal observations used, and to what extent do Muslim communities defer to a regional or international standard, such as Mecca?

It is usually based on local hilal onservations. For example Idul-fitr was on a Thursday in Malaysia while Muslims in Saudi Arabia celebrated it on Wednesday.

If a date is provided in a historical text, how (if at all) does one determine the exact date meant?

It is possible to calculate a certain date in Islamic Calendar to an equivalent of a Gregorian Calendar and vice versa.

... and anything else you think is interesting or important on this topic.

In about 19000 years time the Islamic Calendar will overtake the Gregorian calendar.

[pghnative]

I seem to recall that some cultures modified the lunar calendar so that some years had 12 months and some had 13. This corrects the issue raised by The Saint, by preventing the shift of festivals (etc) from one season to the next. I believe that there was a 19 year cycle in which years 6, 13 and 19 had 13 months. This keeps the calendar closely in check with the solar year.

I had always assumed that the Muslim religious calendar followed this pattern, but according to The Saint, that isn't true. Can anyone confirm? Does the Jewish calendar follow this pattern?

[ToSeek]

It affects EVERYONE. We should, instead, base it on something scientific, something observable, like some supernova or something (off the top of my head). That way, children can grow up with Science in their brains, not fairy tales. Yes?

At the moment we have similar to "The year is 2006 A.S.D. (After Santa Claus)". I don't think it takes much for children today to see through the hypocrisy, and thus they will reject ALL teaching & knowledge (from adults). We adults must set an example, a rationalist example.

Otherwise this race dies out.

Referring to other people's religious beliefs as "fairy tales" is inappropriate to this forum. Religious issues should be approached carefully and only when directly related to scientific matters. From Rule 12 (http://64.207.216.12/showthread.php?t=32864) of this board:

Due to the contentious nature of these subjects, forum participants are strongly advised to avoid discussing religious and political issues. Please don't begin or contribute to a topic that's merely going to incite or fuel a flame war.
...
In short, you are allowed to discuss politics and religion within a very limited scope where they affect space and space exploration, astronomy, and science. Nothing more. If you really really need to talk about these topics with someone, take it to email or to another bulletin board.

Any further posts along these lines will result in disciplinary action.

[grant hutchison]

I had always assumed that the Muslim religious calendar followed this pattern, but according to The Saint, that isn't true. Can anyone confirm? Does the Jewish calendar follow this pattern?The Muslim calendar is purely lunar, with twelve lunar months totalling 354 or 355 days. This was stipulated, I believe, by the Prophet Mohammed and implemented shortly after his death. His thinking (again, if I understand correctly) was that it was religiously inappropriate for people to delay the coming of the various religious festivals by inserting an extra month.
Prior to that time, Arabia had used the sort of lunisolar calendar you describe, with periodic 13-month years to keep the calendar aligned with the seasons.
The Jewish calendar is also lunisolar with a mix of 12-month and 13-month years, repeating over one Metonic cycle of 19 years.

Grant Hutchison

[grant hutchison]

Many thanks, The_Radiation_Specialist: this is exactly the sort of information I was hoping to glean.
It is possible to calculate a certain date in Islamic Calendar to an equivalent of a Gregorian Calendar and vice versa.I can certainly see how conversion could be made using any of the deterministic Islamic calendars. I just wondered if there was a standard form used for historical Islamic dates.
I can imagine, say, a battle might be dated by the participants each according to their own local hilal, but that historians might use some agreed standard calendar so that each date was precisely specified.
A similar situation prevailed during the long change-over from Julian to Gregorian calendars in Europe, when we have to insert "(NS)" or "(OS)" next to dates to say whether they are New Style (Gregorian) or Old Style (Julian).

Grant Hutchison

[Fram]

IIRC, the problem of converting dates to our (Gregorian) calendar is a problem also encountered a lot by historians, even at more unexpected places.
It is e.g. a problem to know for some dates in (late) medieval European texts in which year they were made, as they used the Julian calendar to date (day and month), but started a new year on Easter. This of course often had the effect that a certain year had two April 1st (if the first Easter before happen at the end of March, and the second Easter mid april) or so. Not the most practical system, obviously...

[The Saint]

Our bodies are physiologically attuned to the seasons. Religious people are attuned also to their festivals. With Ramadan, with its month of rigorous fasting, followed by equally rigorous feasting occuring in a different season each year, plus all the other Islamic festivals wandering each year, could this cause an unsettling clash between its adherents minds and bodies?

How would the western mindset take to Christmas feasting on December 25, next year in August, and the year after that in April?

[grant hutchison]

How would the western mindset take to Christmas feasting on December 25, next year in August, and the year after that in April?The difference in the Islamic calendar is only 10-12 days per year, so it takes 33 or 34 years for the Islamic festivals to drift entirely around the seasons once.

Grant Hutchison

[pghnative]

Speaking only for myself, I would be happy to perform my Christmas feasting 10 - 12 days earlier each year. Over my anticipated lifetime, that's 1-2 extra holidays with presents, turkey, cookies etc...;)

Of course, "I'm dreaming of a White Christmas" might never have caught on.

<extreme sarcasm>
That's it! It is because of Bing Crosby that I and my belief system are superior to others!!!!!
</extreme sarcasm>

[Celestial Mechanic]

[Snip!]It is e.g. a problem to know for some dates in (late) medieval European texts in which year they were made, as they used the Julian calendar to date (day and month), but started a new year on Easter. This of course often had the effect that a certain year had two April 1st (if the first Easter before happen at the end of March, and the second Easter mid april) or so. Not the most practical system, obviously...
Are you sure of this? I thought that the Julian calendar started the year on March 25th, regardless of the date of Easter.

[The Saint]

The difference in the Islamic calendar is only 10-12 days per year, so it takes 33 or 34 years for the Islamic festivals to drift entirely around the seasons once.

Grant Hutchison

On the news, Ramadan and the Hajj seems to be held in totally different seasons each year.

Both Mohammed and Pope Gregory had the option of adopting an intercalary calendar, but rejected it as they wanted to distinguish themselves from its use by the Jews.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

The Muslim calendar is purely lunar, with twelve lunar months totalling 354 or 355 days. This was stipulated, I believe, by the Prophet Mohammed and implemented shortly after his death. His thinking (again, if I understand correctly) was that it was religiously inappropriate for people to delay the coming of the various religious festivals by inserting an extra month.
Prior to that time, Arabia had used the sort of lunisolar calendar you describe, with periodic 13-month years to keep the calendar aligned with the seasons.
The Jewish calendar is also lunisolar with a mix of 12-month and 13-month years, repeating over one Metonic cycle of 19 years.

Grant Hutchison
The Jewish Calendar Works After a Fashion, But The Shifting Days Do Still Cause a Little Confusion ...

Personally I Think we Should ALL Shift to a Perpetual Calendar, that Starts on Sunday 1st January and Ends On an Extra Day Separate from The Calendar Every Year ...

But Back to The Islamic Calendar, Which Although it Regresses With The Years, Takes Far Fewer Calculations to Follow Correctly!

[The Saint]

A true repeating lunar-solar cycle occurs only every 689,272 years, and an absolute reconciliation of the lunar calendar with the solar year is an impossibility.

The intercalary leap month added in 7 out of 19 years in the Jewish calendar is to ensure that the seasonal feasts keep to their correct season, "Observe the month of the Aviv" (Deut 16:1), which is not a requirement in the Muslim calendar.

But this calendar is un-Biblical and was meant as a temporary expedient during the Diaspora, instead of the Biblical direct observation. That it has worked so long without any changes at all is impressive.

Some in Israel are practicing direct observation of the Moon in preparation for what they believe will be the restoration of that method with the advent of Ezekiel's Third Temple http://www.geocities.com/royh_il

[grant hutchison]

On the news, Ramadan and the Hajj seems to be held in totally different seasons each year.As you said in an earlier post, the Islamic year is only 11 days short of a tropical year. Ramadan is the 9th month of the Islamic year, and the Hajj takes place in the 12th month. So, unless I'm corrected by our Muslim correspondents, it would seem that these events should slip by only 11 days, or thereabouts, each year. Why would the Muslim festivals move faster than the Muslim year?

Both Mohammed and Pope Gregory had the option of adopting an intercalary calendar, but rejected it as they wanted to distinguish themselves from its use by the Jews.Mohammed rejected the lunisolar calendar then in use in Arabia in favour of a lunar calendar: the usual reason given, as far as I can see, is that he believed it was not for humans to decide to delay the coming of religious festivals by inserting an extra month.
I wasn't aware Gregory's calendar commission considered a lunisolar option. It would have been rather a major step to reject the late-Roman and Julian scheme, which ignores lunations, in favour of a return to lunar months. The advantage would have been a regular date for Easter; the disadvantage would have been a degree of chaos in switching back to 29/30 day months. I'm not surprised they stuck with the Julian month lengths.

Grant Hutchison

[The Saint]

Pope Gregory XIII was no lover of Protestants, celebrating the St Bartholmew's Day Massacre of Protestant Hugenots.

Nor of the Jews. When it was suggested to him that it might be easier to adopt the Jewish calendar, he exclaimed: " 'tis better to be wrong with the calendar than right with the Jews!".

[Fram]

On the news, Ramadan and the Hajj seems to be held in totally different seasons each year.

Both Mohammed and Pope Gregory had the option of adopting an intercalary calendar, but rejected it as they wanted to distinguish themselves from its use by the Jews.

Any source for this?

[grant hutchison]

Pope Gregory XIII was no lover of Protestants, celebrating the St Bartholmew's Day Massacre of Protestant Hugenots.

Nor of the Jews. When it was suggested to him that it might be easier to adopt the Jewish calendar, he exclaimed: " 'tis better to be wrong with the calendar than right with the Jews!".Again, we seem to be drifting into purely religious topics ...
There were sound practical reasons for changing the calendar as little as possible in the transition from Julian to Gregorian.

Grant Hutchison

[Fram]

Are you sure of this? I thought that the Julian calendar started the year on March 25th, regardless of the date of Easter.

It depends on which system they used, which makes it even harder, as it is often hard from a text without context to know what system they used.
You can find more info about what I described e.g. on this page (http://www.lieberknecht.de/~prg/calendar.htm), in the part about the Easter Style.
Apparently, from this and other links, it was used mainly in France (and Burgundy, I suppose), which explains why I learned about it (we in Flanders were part of Burgundy for a while, just like we were part of almost every country once in a while). I thought it was more common, but that is a misconception on my part.

[grant hutchison]

Well ... Having thought about it for a while longer ...
If some of you guys just can't resist venting religious feelings on this thread, I think I'll be very happy to have the thing locked.

Grant Hutchison

[Celestial Mechanic]

If Ramadan is the ninth month and the Hajj is held during the twelfth month, they are almost always going to be in different seasons. I'm allowing for 88/89 days being a little shorter than the length of a season, so that portions of these months might be in the same season togeter. The Saint really needs to think before, during, and after typing as well as before hitting "Submit Reply".

[ToSeek]

Pope Gregory XIII was no lover of Protestants, celebrating the St Bartholmew's Day Massacre of Protestant Hugenots.

Nor of the Jews. When it was suggested to him that it might be easier to adopt the Jewish calendar, he exclaimed: " 'tis better to be wrong with the calendar than right with the Jews!".

Saint, that is a totally inappropriate observation for this forum. You are already on thin ice for other violations of this forum's rules. Watch it.

As Grant says, there is a legitimate discussion to be had here, if we can avoid the snipes for or against various religions. I would rather not lock this thread but will do so if people can't stay on-topic.

[Celestial Mechanic]

I just want to thank grant hutchison for bringing this topic up because I did not know of the three different Islamic calendars. :clap:

[grant hutchison]

Are you sure of this? I thought that the Julian calendar started the year on March 25th, regardless of the date of Easter.There were lots of different starting dates for the year in use within the Julian calendar, as the page Fram links to implies.
Here in Scotland we shifted to 1 January to start the year in 1600, but retained the Julian calendar until 1752. In England before 1066, the New Year started on 25 December; it shifted to 25 March with the Norman Invasion. In current Coptic and Ethiopic Church reckoning, the Julian calendar is used with the new year starting on 29 August (or 30 August if preceding a Julian bissextile day). The Easter change Fram mentioned was called the mos Gallicus, or "French custom", and it was in use from 1215 to 1564 in various parts of France.
And there's more! If you can get hold of a copy of The Oxford Companion to the Year you can happily melt your brain with the detail. :)

Grant Hutchison

PS: Since we haven't (yet) been shut down, does anyone have any more thoughts or information about the Islamic calendar: mathematical, astronomical, practical. (Thanks for the thanks, BTW, Celestial Mechanic. :))

[The Saint]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar

[noha]

Well I'm a Muslim when I was living in S.A. we went by the Hijrah Calendar1427 ( the year ) and now I am living in London we go by the normal calender.
and I like how the Hijrah Calendar changes seasons every couple of years.
(You might have been refering to the Hijrah Calender as the Islamic Caleder.)

[The_Radiation_Specialist]

Many thanks, The_Radiation_Specialist: this is exactly the sort of information I was hoping to glean.



no prob. :D

[grant hutchison]

(You might have been refering to the Hijrah Calender as the Islamic Caleder.)That's right. I didn't use the Arabic name because I thought calling it "Islamic" at the head of the thread would be more familiar to more people.
The Hijrah was Mohammed's journey from Mecca to Medina, which is the retrospective starting point for the Islamic calendar: is that correct?

In English, Hijrah dates are sometimes marked "AH" for anno Hegirae ("year of the Hijrah"), as an analogy for "AD", anno Domini, in the Christian calendar.

Grant Hutchison

[The_Radiation_Specialist]

The Hijrah was Mohammed's journey from Mecca to Medina, which is the retrospective starting point for the Islamic calendar: is that correct?
yes. This actually happened 1384 (solar) years ago, but the Islamic calendar is currently at the year 1427.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

yes. This actually happened 1384 (solar) years ago, but the Islamic calendar is currently at the year 1427.
Those Darn 11 Days, again ...

Dang, those Things Add Up ...

But, it's their Calendar, If it Works for them Who am I to Judge?

:dance:

[Knowledge_Seeker]

I just want to thank grant hutchison for bringing this topic up because I did not know of the three different Islamic calendars. :clap:

I agree, i myself being a muslim, didnt know there were three calendars.
i only knew that all muslims (shias and sunnis) used the same calendar but the prayer times differed.

i have attached a previous prayer timetable/ islamic calender, which is distributed by the local Mosque (or Masjid) please leave comments on it :)

EDIT: The attachment didnt work, so to view the calendar, just view it here:
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y31/rahmanking202/timetable.jpg

EDIT: You know what that didnt come out good either, so just forget about that

[Vaelroth]

TINY!

I'd blow it up and re-host it for you but thats so small that I'm afraid it would appear exactly the same, just bigger.

[Knowledge_Seeker]

unfortunately i dont know how to do that.......

[Vaelroth]

Experiment with MS Paint or Photoshop if you have it. You'll find a few options to increase the image size by "stretching" the image. Unfortunately you usually wind up with a bigger and worse version of what you started with. Rule of thumb when working with digital pictures: Start big, then go small.

[grant hutchison]

I agree, i myself being a muslim, didnt know there were three calendars.The tabular Islamic calendar actually comes in several subvariants, depending on exactly which 11 years out of each 30 are "abundant" (have the extra day added).

An amusing variant of the tabular calendar is Microsoft's "Kuwaiti algorithm", which is based on an analysis of Kuwaiti hilal observations:In an effort to solve this challenging problem, several years ago some of the top developers in Microsoft's Middle East Products Divison (MEPD) did extensive research into it. They had the longest timeline of information on the Hijri calendar as is used in Kuwait, and they took this information and did statistical analysis on it, finally arriving at the most accurate algorithm they could devise. This algorithm is used in many Microsoft products, including all operating systems that support Arabic locales, Microsoft Office, COM, Visual Basic, VBA, and SQL Server 2000. Whether you refer to this as the Hijri date, the Arabic style, or the Kuwaiti algorithm, you should understand that it is technically none of these things; it is simply the most accurate algorithm that Microsoft was able to derive using a large number of known Hijri dates. (From this (http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/DrIntl/columns/002/default.mspx#Q3) page at Microsoft.)
But according to this page (http://www.phys.uu.nl/~vgent/islam/islamyear_en.htm), the "Kuwaiti algorithm" turns out to be identical to a variant of the tabular Islamic calendar invented by Ulugh Beg 600 years ago, during some spare time he had left over from ruling a large chunk of Central Asia.
I've actually visited the remains of Ulugh Beg's observatory in Samarkand, and there's no doubt he was a serious astronomer (who seems to have understood the predictability of the lunar cycle rather better than Microsoft's "top developers").

Grant Hutchison

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

The tabular Islamic calendar actually comes in several subvariants, depending on exactly which 11 years out of each 30 are "abundant" (have the extra day added).

An amusing variant of the tabular calendar is Microsoft's "Kuwaiti algorithm", which is based on an analysis of Kuwaiti hilal observations: (From this (http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/DrIntl/columns/002/default.mspx#Q3) page at Microsoft.)
But according to this page (http://www.phys.uu.nl/%7Evgent/islam/islamyear_en.htm), the "Kuwaiti algorithm" turns out to be identical to a variant of the tabular Islamic calendar invented by Ulugh Beg 600 years ago, during some spare time he had left over from ruling a large chunk of Central Asia.
I've actually visited the remains of Ulugh Beg's observatory in Samarkand, and there's no doubt he was a serious astronomer (who seems to have understood the predictability of the lunar cycle rather better than Microsoft's "top developers").

Grant Hutchison
Irony ...

Not ONLY Is Microsoft's Effort Imperfect, But its Best Effort Is Merely a Copy of Something Already Done, 600 Years Ago ...

There's a Bill Gates is The Devil Metaphor Lurking Somewhere Here, But I'm Afraid it's Far Too Political, for This Board!

:evil: