Determinism and free will

[regis1]

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=338789


To tell you the truth, as a neuroscientist, I am most interested in the uncertainty principal and its applications to free will. Unfortunately, I do not know a lot about physics but I do know a lot about neuroscience. From what I can understand, certain relationships in quantum mechanics (i.e. determining the position of an electron and determining its momentum coincidentally) necessarily cannot be determined at the same time due to the uncertainty principal. If this is true, it opens the possibility that behavior is not predefined and, as a result, our behavioral fate is not deterministically predetermined. Put in another way, it says that free will is possible. I am very interestied in what you guys think. Do we live in a determanistically defined world or does free will exist?

-K

[Chuck]

I've never seen a good definition of free will. What is it free of? If it means free of someone else's will then I have free will, my brain making my decisions. If it means free of the laws of physics then I don't think so. If it means not predefined, such as in quantum uncertainty, then I guess I do but then what's so great about my decisions being made partially or entirely at random? How can it by my free will if I have no control over it?

When I ask "Do I have free will?", what do I mean by "I"? Am I my brain, making me a physical object? Am I the set of decisions made by my brain? Am I the knowledge that I exist? Before I can know whether or not I have free will I need to know what I am.

[antoniseb]

Do we live in a determanistically defined world or does free will exist?
I don't think that Heisenberg's uncertainty principal needs to be invoked to make our choices indistinguishable from "free will". Our choice making process is a very complex system, and macroscopic non-quantum phenomena will make it so that it cannot be precisely modeled with any system that could ever be built.

[Eroica]

Chuck pretty much summed up my views on the matter. If it turns out that the notion of identity is an illusion, then no sort of will - free or otherwise - is possible.

I can't get away from the idea that free will must mean being able to defy the laws of nature. The only alternative to this is obeying the laws of nature, which is surely the opposite of free will.

... From what I can understand, certain relationships in quantum mechanics ... necessarily cannot be determined at the same time due to the uncertainty principal. If this is true, it opens the possibility that behavior is not predefined and, as a result, our behavioral fate is not deterministically predetermined. Put in another way, it says that free will is possible. The problem with this argument is that it can also be applied to physical processes, thus supporting the ludicrous notion that electrons, atoms, stars, etc, also have free will!

[farmerjumperdon]

Free will exists because the 3 determinants of behavior (genes, the environment, the processing in the brain) interact with each other in a manner far too complex to be predictable. Think about it - tens of millions of gene pairs, untold millions of experiential events, some incredibly large numbers of millions of synaptic connections; and all 3 constantly changing.

[Eroica]

Free will exists because the 3 determinants of behavior ... interact with each other in a manner far too complex to be predictable.I don't see how the unpredictability of our actions implies that we have free will. Surely the existence of free will would imply that an individual's actions are entirely predictable by that individual.

[farmerjumperdon]

Well, if behavior was entirely deterministic, then knowing the starting conditions would mean being able to perfectly predict the person's behavir the rest of their life. However, there are too many undetermined factors (mostly experiences) that have yet to happen and which are constantly changing. The environment influences genetic changes, genetic changes influence the way the brain works, and the brain reacts to and acts upon the environment.

True, lack of predictability (not knowing what will happen) does not equal lack of determinism. You present an interesting perspective though in saying free will implies that a person's actions are predictable to them. Does that mean that if behavior is entirely determined they would not be able to predict their behavior?

I'd say having free will means behaviors are unpredictable, whether the person is trying to predict their own behaviors of the behaviors of other people.

Gotta think about this some more.

Just as a little thought experiment. Everybody seems to have a favorite color. If there is no such thing as free will, how would you deduce that their favorite color came to be? If that is determined, how is it determined? There woud need to be some sort of algorithm that would allow you to know everyone's favorite color if you had accurate initial inputs, and it would have to be correct every time or determinsim falls apart, right?