Animal-Human Hybrids Spark Controversy

[Rivertree]

(Original GENPETS thread has been removed as advertising a fake product.)

The larger topic is this:
Animal-Human Hybrids Spark Controversy
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/01/0125_050125_chimeras.html

The specific topic is artwork described on the following sites:
http://www.brandejs.ca/portfolio5/gp01.php
http://www.brandejs.ca/index.php
&
http://www.brandejs.ca/portfolio5/gp03.php
"After Thoughts
The piece is meant to illicit a reaction,"

Sorry, if I made the impression that I was trying to sell anything.

THESE ARE NOT REAL. But, it's a good way to open a discussion, if the reactions aren't TOO extreme.

[Rivertree]

I'm allowed to post the links afterall.

Enjoy!
http://www.genpets.com/meet.php

---------------------------------------

Does the science seem real? Do people actually want this?
Does it freak you out?

[Tinaa]

I find this creepy and a bit disgusting. We already live in a society which thinks animals are throw-away toys. I sincerely hope this never comes to pass.

[Rivertree]

Yes, I'm freaked out a bit too. Please don't expect to see me hanging around this thread.

Take care.

Feed the cat. Walk the dog. Chase the squirrels.

[TheBlackCat]

This isn't a clear-cut issue. This sort of thing can definitely be taken too far, but as long as limits are set it can bring massive medical breakthroughs, both in terms of research and in terms of medical treatments. For instance, pig heart valves are already used extensively as human transplants. Other animal body parts are also sometimes used as implants in humans. Nobody seems to have much concern with that. Making animals with hearts or kidneys that are human enough to not be rejected, for instance, could save countless lives every year as people die waiting for transplants. I certainly care about animals, but I care about saving human lives too.

Here (http://www.nap.edu/openbook/0309096537/html/index.html) is the NAS report mentioned in the article, do a search for "chimera", there are bits scattered around. They mention some of the important benefits the technology could bring if limits are set.

[Rivertree]

I've never kicked off a thread to a more rocky start
(offending a moderator) on multiple counts.

Originally, I'd cut straight to the eye-catcher of the gentech pets. This was taboo for appearing as an ad (albeit a fake one) AND hitting on a touchy subject (akin to animal cruelty).

The AD presentation method wasn't bad in my opinion, but the subject matter if taken seriously is a hand full. The artwork itself may be in poor taste, even if it brings itself toward an important cause. I say poor taste, since the method almost backfires (as it creates a superficial demand on both extremes). People want to buy these creatures that don't even exist, and people want to outlaw/ban these creatures again that don't even exist.

Sci-Fi breeds reality to some degree. Does the artist recognize his own contribution?

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Well, let's bring me to present day reality. I have a choice to make. . . .

http://darwin.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=11269&page=106

next page (as PDF) is kinda grainy on my pc
http://print.nap.edu/pdf/0309095867/pdf_image/107.pdf

after 2p. table
http://print.nap.edu/pdf/0309095867/pdf_image/110.pdf

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309095867/html/111.html

The wife and I are leaning toward donating to a cord blood bank.

-------------------------------------------------
I guess the real idea is to donate the blood to a hospital bank, so it can save lives of people with matching or mixing blood types.

Of course, once it's donated it can be used for research.
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309095867/html/117.html

[Rivertree]

:o Hi, Black Cat. :o

Thanks for hitting the (+) note.
------------------------------------------------------------

National Cord Blood Stem Cell Bank sounds like it has two peas in one pod: Cord Blood & Stem Cells.

http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309095867/html/129.html

Stem Cells seem to take the brunt of the controversy, but if they're gold then cord blood is silver (still worth a bit).

Flow diagram of suggested national program, or political oversight circle.
http://darwin.nap.edu/books/0309095867/html/135.html
------------------------------------------------------------
Anyway, I think the core blood donation would more likely go to something good and useful than to something like the real-world attempt at gentech pets.

Please call me an optimist.

[Doodler]

I find this creepy and a bit disgusting. We already live in a society which thinks animals are throw-away toys. I sincerely hope this never comes to pass.

Heh, we're already cloning existing pets, give it a decade or two of hard research, and you'll see custom designed pets.

And the cross breeding of species happens now. We haven't done anything as radical as a human-dog, but we've been crossing donkeys and horses, cows and buffalo, lions and tigers, and now we're seeing natural hybrids of grizzlies and polar bears. What do you intend to see happen? Do you wanna drag daddy grizzly into court and lecture him about sleeping with the white folks?

We've had animals of one species born to another, and now there's an ongoing bit of research into the recreation of an extinct species through hybridization with an elephant. With progress made beyond rudimentary husbandry and genetic manipulation, chimearism is the next frontier, and its going to get crossed. And do not believe for a nanosecond that there's something sacred about human DNA, it recombines just as well as any other.

"Affronting the integrity of the species", as I read it, is a wicked echo of the old cry about racial integrity that existed not a half century ago.

[Argos]

Heh, we're already cloning existing pets, give it a decade or two of hard research, and you'll see custom designed pets.

Yesterday I was reading about how we´ve "domesticated" [brought to the household] the use of computers [Turing once said that "in the future there will be 18 computers in the US" :)]. The next revolution would be the domestication DNA manipulation, allowing for custom made pets and things like that. Creepy.

[eikep]

Heh, we're already cloning existing pets, give it a decade or two of hard research, and you'll see custom designed pets.

And the cross breeding of species happens now. We haven't done anything as radical as a human-dog, but we've been crossing donkeys and horses, cows and buffalo, lions and tigers, and now we're seeing natural hybrids of grizzlies and polar bears. What do you intend to see happen? Do you wanna drag daddy grizzly into court and lecture him about sleeping with the white folks?

We've had animals of one species born to another, and now there's an ongoing bit of research into the recreation of an extinct species through hybridization with an elephant. With progress made beyond rudimentary husbandry and genetic manipulation, chimearism is the next frontier, and its going to get crossed. And do not believe for a nanosecond that there's something sacred about human DNA, it recombines just as well as any other.



Cross breeding, cloning and genetic engineering are actually three separate things, so you should decide which one you'r talkin about.


"Affronting the integrity of the species", as I read it, is a wicked echo of the old cry about racial integrity that existed not a half century ago.

We already have lots of second class citizens, we do not need to clone extra ones. Besides Tinaa wasn't complaining about the cloning but about turning living beings into a product line.

-- eike

[Gerrsun]

could certainly stand a little bit of shark hybridization.

I got a few teeth that have gone bad and I'd love to get a new set coming in.

And cats eyes too cause I mean, hey, who DOESN'T want to be able to see in the dark.

Or is this technology not what we are talking about?


Hey! Who is a second-class citizen? How do you define that? And to those it may apply to, would they use the same definition?

[eikep]

I think human beings could be vastly improved by cloning a receptor for sarcasm, but still...


Hey! Who is a second-class citizen? How do you define that? And to those it may apply to, would they use the same definition?


I define a "second-class citizen" as somebody who enjoys less rights than the rights that should be granted to her/him/whatever by law or even by common decency.

Many "second-class citizens" are well aware that they are treated second class as compared to more fortunate citizens of their country, so they do not necessarily object to the term (depending on who uses it). It's usually the better off people who deny that there are different, dare I say, "classes" of people and say that to claim otherwise is liberal hysteria.

In the context of this thread I was meaning to say that the creation of bespoke humanoids will not necessarily end racism; that in fact it might give rise to more and even more profound social inequalty and that objecting to the more, ehm, mercantile aspects of genetic engineering (we were talking shrink wrapped humanoids here, even if they are ficitonal) does not constitue an act of racism.

As far as hybridization is concerned I would very much prefer the cyborg thing, but then I like Star Trek.

I guess by now I used up all the long words from my dictionary so I'll give it a rest now.

-- eike

[Rivertree]

The Gen Pets seem eerily possible.

I'd say that scientists with such capability need to have considerable self regulating ethics. The laws often do not keep up with true breakthroughs.

Bio-technology needs to follow the hearts of biology, not just the bottom-line (ka-ching).

[Gerrsun]

I think human beings could be vastly improved by cloning a receptor for sarcasm, but still...



I define a "second-class citizen" as somebody who enjoys less rights than the rights that should be granted to her/him/whatever by law or even by common decency.

Many "second-class citizens" are well aware that they are treated second class as compared to more fortunate citizens of their country, so they do not necessarily object to the term (depending on who uses it). It's usually the better off people who deny that there are different, dare I say, "classes" of people and say that to claim otherwise is liberal hysteria.

In the context of this thread I was meaning to say that the creation of bespoke humanoids will not necessarily end racism; that in fact it might give rise to more and even more profound social inequalty and that objecting to the more, ehm, mercantile aspects of genetic engineering (we were talking shrink wrapped humanoids here, even if they are ficitonal) does not constitue an act of racism.

As far as hybridization is concerned I would very much prefer the cyborg thing, but then I like Star Trek.

I guess by now I used up all the long words from my dictionary so I'll give it a rest now.

-- eike


I've always been partial to inalienable rights myself, they just seem so self-evident.

And I disagree with your views about who DOES and does not think there are 'classes'. However, since this isn't the topic of this thread if you want to discuss it more in email, feel free.

[Rivertree]

Rights and repsect go together. Inalienable rights and respect for life are intertwined.
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The (second class) creatures in plastic may be miserable as almost implied by the pictures, but the artists words assure us that the creatures are quite comfortable in their "natural" hybernating stasis.

PICTURES are more powerful than mere words. It's the lack of perfection that makes the models look realistic. A few pimples here and there, and JUST LOOK at those poor creatures.

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Cloning itself is a natural function in its home environment. Each time someone roots a cutting of a plant, he creates a clone.
----------------------------------------------

People use the word rights behind any cause of their own. For example, there are clone rights groups and anti-cloning rights (personal autonomy rights).

---------------------------------------------

WHAT'S THE EXACT COPY OF A RIDDLE ?

[Kristophe]

... Besides Tinaa wasn't complaining about the cloning but about turning living beings into a product line.

Somehow, the phrase "your grocer's freezer" comes to mind.

[Doodler]

Cross breeding, cloning and genetic engineering are actually three separate things, so you should decide which one you'r talkin about.



We already have lots of second class citizens, we do not need to clone extra ones. Besides Tinaa wasn't complaining about the cloning but about turning living beings into a product line.

-- eike

You mean like we do now with adoption agencies, livestock auctions, and pet stores?

[Gillianren]

I grant I didn't go through an agency, but in adoption these days, it's really more adoptive parents that are the commodity than the infants. Non-special-needs babies are in such high demand that birth mothers get to pick and choose.

[Doodler]

I grant I didn't go through an agency, but in adoption these days, it's really more adoptive parents that are the commodity than the infants. Non-special-needs babies are in such high demand that birth mothers get to pick and choose.

I stand corrected.

[HenrikOlsen]

I grant I didn't go through an agency, but in adoption these days, it's really more adoptive parents that are the commodity than the infants. Non-special-needs babies are in such high demand that birth mothers get to pick and choose.
The situation is not quite so happy (http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/2006-03-28/index.html) for special-needs babies.

Sorry, I just can't help associating.

[Gillianren]

No, you're totally right. But most agencies won't handle special needs babies.

[Rivertree]

not quite so happy (http://www.redmeat.com/redmeat/2006-03-28/index.html) for special-needs babies.
.


Main Entry: in·cur·able
: not curable <an incurable disease>

not likely to be changed or corrected <incurable optimism>

Do I have incurable optimism if I say there is no such thing as an incurable disease?

[TheBlackCat]

Do I have incurable optimism if I say there is no such thing as an incurable disease?

Yes. There are certain things that simply cannot be fixed.

[Gillianren]

I personally have (at least) two of them. They can be helped but not healed.

[Rivertree]

I won't dig for web references (for once), but I seem to recall that some people have been pronounced dead but really weren't. That would typically be a misdiagnosis. Have some dead people come back to life? Shucks, I may have seen too many zombie movies. Many of the zombie movies imply that it's a virus that makes them like that. Anyway, those zombies seem incurable!

Re: incurable. I don't like the word. If there's no known cure YET, then that doesn't mean it's incurable IMHO.

There's no known cure for the common cold, but I had one in April and it's gone today.

As for curing Zombietis, I think I would need to get my head cut off. :cry: :cry:

[Rivertree]

I personally have (at least) two of them. They can be helped but not healed.

Hopefully, it's nothing so severe as this.

Alcoholism --An incurable addiction?
"Alcoholism is a problem that never goes away, until death."
http://writing.tomrue.net/riverreporter/930715.htm

If it is, then don't drink. AA and such helps. I have a couple of friends survive from that, but one co-worker who didn't.

Sometimes the cure isn't as important as the work around.

Take care.
Best wishes!

[Gillianren]

No. I have manic depression and arthritis. I have scoliosis, which can sort of be cured by back surgery, but I'm not going for that any time soon.

Many, many people have been pronounced dead that weren't, especially if you go even a century back. Medical science has vastly improved; the mere invention of the stethescope probably kept some people from being pronounced dead.

And "cure" means from the outside; your body got over the cold, but it wasn't cured, just defeated by your body's natural mechanisms.

[Rivertree]

:whistle:
Always look on the bright side of life.

I'd probably get depressed, if I stayed in front of the computer much longer.

I didn't know this.
(Manic depression is defined as a treatable (but not curable) psychological disorder.)

MS has been one that I see has affected lives long-term.

I do know this. Sometimes, the treatment is worse than the disease.

Also, sometimes the smallest conditions and problems can affect us the most. i.e. Someone has eyelashes that curl the wrong way, and this may distract him or her from his driving which may cause an accident or worse. This hasn't happened as far as I know.

Eyelashes can't be forced, they must be gently persuaded back into form. If I rub my eyes with any sense of ego determination, then my eyelash refuses to move or may go diving into the eye. Of course, I may still believe that the eyelash has no mind of its own.

But, another general rule for allergies and other irritants is never to rub the eyes. That's sometimes easier said than done.

My tension headaches are all but completely gone. I'd lost sight of the cause-effect reaction for over a year. ;) This was something within my own control.

Meanwhile, I've got an ol' friend who is depressed a lot, and she is doing better (if not perfect) after ditching her meds. THIS IS NOT GENERAL ADVICE.:hand:

Peace-out.
Best wishes.
Take care.

[Rivertree]

Hopefully, there haven't been harsh remedies applied like electroshock treatments.

:wall:

Although, I guess even they have their place.

[Gillianren]

Meanwhile, I've got an ol' friend who is depressed a lot, and she is doing better (if not perfect) after ditching her meds. THIS IS NOT GENERAL ADVICE.:hand:

It certainly isn't. In fact, it's very bad advice indeed. What happens a lot more frequently in mental illness, though, is that the meds work, the person decides they're "cured," the person goes off their meds, and things immediately get much worse, but the person doesn't notice, because they know they're "cured."

Psychological medication is complicated stuff, largely because we don't entirely understand human brain chemistry yet. So far, I've totally eliminated one "family" of meds because of severe side effects. The third medicine I tried didn't have severe side effects, but it didn't actually work, either. I'm kind of in medical limbo at the moment, but it takes a lot of meds failing to work before they start seriously talking electroshock.

[Rivertree]

Feed the cat.


Paco the cat is twelve years old and is really starting to shed. The tail looks really thin, and the vet thinks he may have a thyroid condition. I'm waiting for a full diagnosis later today, , , ,

We can likely treat the condition with medication.

I myself aren't too keen on too many operations and big-time treatments for pets, since it seems natural courses are good too. The thyroid condition sounds pretty common, and I hear the medication helps.

Life is life, and there's none of this send him back to the store (genpets) kinda stuff (yet). Thank god! :clap:

[mugaliens]

Thought it interesting that President Bush distinquished his first veto earlier this week by noting that he only objects to "embryonic stem cell research," which is what Congress was pushing for.

Surely they must know that there are many other sources of stem cells... While one may argue that embryonic stem cells might be obtained in greater abundance, it can also be argued that there are still other sources of stem cells.

[Rivertree]

Thought it interesting that President Bush distinquished his first veto earlier this week by noting that he only objects to "embryonic stem cell research," which is what Congress was pushing for.

Surely they must know that there are many other sources of stem cells... While one may argue that embryonic stem cells might be obtained in greater abundance, it can also be argued that there are still other sources of stem cells.

I can't get a South Park episode out of mind quite yet,,,,

:exclaim: :exclaim: :exclaim:

Christopher Reeves kept on sucking the stem cells out of fetus after fetus so he could move his arms a little bit more.

I'll be
:silenced:
until I can focus away from cartoons and back on reality.

[Rivertree]

Surely they must know that there are many other sources of stem cells... While one may argue that embryonic stem cells might be obtained in greater abundance, it can also be argued that there are still other sources of stem cells.


Two "ethics" apply.
1) Using what is most readily available. This is the ethic to reduce waste ( like unwanted fetus:mad: :( :cry: ).

2) Using what is least offensive. Nobody digs up your dead great-grandfather's body in the name of science. That's a person you likely cared about afterall!

Politics enter the picture as much of society cares about the fetus (and what happens to it) wheter or not the mother actually does.

Then, the ethics of precedents and habits enter into the picture too.

We can talk ethics and science, but as political as the abortion issue has always been (in my life), then I don't see how this topic entirely can avoid politics.

The fetus is a hot commodity. :exclaim:

[Ozzy]

I saw a documentary on dogs recently that said "pets" became popular in the 1800's as neuvo rich tried to emmulate aristocrats who up till then were the only people wealthy enough to keep non-productive animals just for pleasure.

Will we see designer pets in the future that will reflect the status (purchasing capacity) of citizens?

Muuumm. Can I have a pot belly elephant ? please please.. can I ... can I?

[SeanF]

Muuumm. Can I have a pot belly elephant ? please please.. can I ... can I?
No.

As the famous Loverboy song says, "Pig and Elephant DNA Just Won't Splice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Elephant_Makes_Love_to_a_Pig)."

EDIT: Bit of bad language on that link.

[Rivertree]

No.

As the famous Loverboy song says, "Pig and Elephant DNA Just Won't Splice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Elephant_Makes_Love_to_a_Pig)."

EDIT: Bit of bad language on that link.

An_Elephant_Makes_Love_to_a_Pig is not my favorite SP episode.

Still funny stuff, distinctively SP. . . .:lol: