Heat claims 2 hikers in Utah

[soylentgreen]

The heat(although for that region I imagine it's closer to the norm) claimed the lives of hikers in various endeavors in Utah.

2 hikers die in Utah desert (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060719/ap_on_re_us/hikers_die)

One girl was seperated from her hiking group and didn't last long apparently. For me the real jaw-dropper was the guy from right here in Jersey who coughed up $3,000 for a month long survival course from Boulder Outdoor Survival School(home of that digging dude from the History Channel).

Despite making clear he was suffering from the regimen involved, the course instructors must not have paid it much mind. He conked out and flat-lined right there on day 2.

The site for B.O.S.S is very exhaustive(no pun!)in covering all the points of their courses, which run from innocuous stream-side camping with fire starting and rock splitting all the way to reenactments of James Brolin in CAPRICORN ONE. Some very, very tough stuff.

Could be me, but between the lines, it seems the organization is geared a little more towards the sensational end of the experience than the practical. The testimonials seem to confirm that it serves as a kind of ego proving ground more often than as a way to prepare someone for survival in harsh environments.

This tidbit from B.O.S.S. struck me as a bit glib...
Diane Nagler, a spokeswoman for the school, said that although students are not allowed to carry water bottles, they have access to water along the route.

"They carry a cup," she said. "It's very well planned-out."

I would loved to have seen the faces of the guy's family when they heard "They carry a cup"!

The Survival School says - Our goal is to take you from a world of convenience and comfort and put you in a situation where you must go 'just a little bit farther' — past those false limits your mind has set for your body.

The whole thing is sad. I just don't get how people feel the need to push it like that. What did it gain this poor guy from River Vale? I guess his other organs had some actual limits.

I'm a bit lazy and frighteningly out of shape, but I have to believe that I've gotten a little more useful survival tips from watching "Survivorman" and repeated viewings of Cornel Wilde running for his life in NAKED PREY, than I would have from paying The Boulder Outdoor Survival School a couple of grand to try to kill me. :think:

[Ronald Brak]

The Survival School says - Our goal is to take you from a world of convenience and comfort and put you in a situation where you must go 'just a little bit farther' — past those false limits your mind has set for your body.

Some people give up on difficult activity long before they reach their physical limits. Others don't. The way to find out which is which is not to force march people beyond the point they claim to be unable to go beyond and see who dies.

"They carry a cup," she said. "It's very well planned-out."

In a survival situation the proper course of action would be to beat this person to death with the cup.

[01101001]

Risk on BOSS Course (http://www.boss-inc.com/09Risk.html)

As far as we know, there is no other program which will purposely put you in a position where you must hike under adverse conditions (hot, bright days or cold, dark nights) with little or no food and water. And this is done during the first few days of the course — when we really don't know that much about you or your physical fitness.

The shuttle ride from Provo, Utah to our school in Boulder is considered by some to be the riskiest part of the course. After all, we can attempt to control your time on the trail with us, but we can't do much about the other drivers on the road.

[Gillianren]

Some people give up on difficult activity long before they reach their physical limits. Others don't. The way to find out which is which is not to force march people beyond the point they claim to be unable to go beyond and see who dies.

Historically speaking, I believe that is in fact referred to as a "death march." As in, Bataan. (Though, of course, these people weren't in any particular risk of being shot and had paid for the experience. So really only a very mild comparison, but still.)

I wonder how "they have a cup" will stand up in court if they're actually not allowed to carry water bottles.

[farmerjumperdon]

I'm a bit lazy and frighteningly out of shape, but I have to believe that I've gotten a little more useful survival tips from watching "Survivorman" and repeated viewings of Cornel Wilde running for his life in NAKED PREY, than I would have from paying The Boulder Outdoor Survival School a couple of grand to try to kill me. :think:

Watching something on TV doesn't really compare to actually doing anything, except maybe watching something else on TV.

Going through a survuval exercise gives the experience of survivng, actually using what is learned. Watching TV gives the experience of watching TV, plus the added bonus of maybe getting really good with the clicker.

[Cylinder]

I was the airman stupid enough to present at the "Goodbuddy" AFB, TX sick call with the classic symptoms of dehydration - severe cramps, muscle weakness, nausea. After a CRT and general checkup, I was diagnosed, pumped full of IV fluids, had to drink like a gallon of nasty Kool-Aid like drink every 30 minutes for two hours and placed on an alcohol-restricted diet for two weeks.

[farmerjumperdon]

I was the airman stupid enough to present at the "Goodbuddy" AFB, TX sick call with the classic symptoms of dehydration - severe cramps, muscle weakness, nausea. After a CRT and general checkup, I was diagnosed, pumped full of IV fluids, had to drink like a gallon of nasty Kool-Aid like drink every 30 minutes for two hours and placed on an alcohol-restricted diet for two weeks.

And tell us Airman Cylinder, how did you get so dehydrated?

[Cylinder]

And tell us Airman Cylinder, how did you get so dehydrated?

Apparently if you drink beer exclusively for a couple of days, the alcohol actually leaches more water from your body than the beer supplies...

Whoda think it!! :)

ETA: I was lucky. Had I been a bit more intoxicated when I showed up at the clinic, I would have got an alcohol-related incident which would have prevented me from obtaining an SCI clearance.

[Sam5]

I'm a bit lazy and frighteningly out of shape, but I have to believe that I've gotten a little more useful survival tips from watching "Survivorman" and repeated viewings of Cornel Wilde running for his life in NAKED PREY, than I would have from paying The Boulder Outdoor Survival School a couple of grand to try to kill me. :think:

There was a case in Arizona about 10 years ago when about 11 hikers were drowned during a sudden flash flood in Antelope Canyon. The only survivor in the group was their guide. He knew how to climb the sheer face of the cliffs and he managed to get above the water line. Everyone else – who weren’t experienced with canyon wall climbing or flash floods – died.

Many tourists like this are from big cities in the East, and they are not prepared for hiking in the extreme desert heat and they don’t know how to survive flash floods. It would be like taking someone out of an office environment and putting them in a dangerous desert or canyon situation with no training whatsoever. In the three desert states of Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, several tourists die here each year, either from the heat, from flash floods, from falls in canyons and off mountains, or in winter blizzards.

[Superluminal]

Back in the 80's the Air Force sent me through desert training near Indian Springs north of Las Vegas. One of the first things we were taught was never camp in a canyon or gully, precisely because of flash floods. Looks to me as if that guide should have been aware of that.
s

[Frantic Freddie]

In the three desert states of Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico, several tourists die here each year, either from the heat, from flash floods, from falls in canyons and off mountains, or in winter blizzards.

Several times I've run across people hiking in the desert without any water & totally inadequate clothing,like sandals.

I refer to them as Darwin Award candidates.

[farmerjumperdon]

Apparently if you drink beer exclusively for a couple of days, the alcohol actually leaches more water from your body than the beer supplies...

Whoda think it!! :)

ETA: I was lucky. Had I been a bit more intoxicated when I showed up at the clinic, I would have got an alcohol-related incident which would have prevented me from obtaining an SCI clearance.

That was my suspicion. Had a similar event once (well, alcohol induced dehydration anyway). Went on a 2 day rugby roadtrip in very warm weather during which copious quantites of beer was the only beverage. Got up Monday morning and experienced a nasty burning sensation while urinating. First thought was what I might have done that weekend that I didn't remember doing. Went to the campus clinic where it was determined I was badly dehydrated and had a urinary tract infection, probably brought on by lack of dihydrogen monoxide.

Lesson learned.

[Sam5]

That particular canyon is very narrow and has colorful walls of sandstone, so people like to hike it. From the floor of the narrow parts of the canyon, they couldn’t see much sky above. A canyon like that can flood quickly if there is a hard rain 10 or even 20 miles North of where the hikers were located, so there might be no sign of rain in the area they were in, but the water just suddenly comes rushing down the canyon from the North, with no warning at all.

http://www.usatourist.com/english/places/arizona/antelopecanyon.html

http://gorp.away.com/gorp/activity/hiking/antelope.htm

[Sam5]

Several times I've run across people hiking in the desert without any water & totally inadequate clothing,like sandals.

I refer to them as Darwin Award candidates.

Several years ago I hiked about 3-1/2 miles in Chaco Canyon to see the ancient Nova rock painting. It was about 90 degrees outside that day. I took about half a gallon of water, and a bunch of food. Plus, I signed in at the ranger station to let them know I was hiking and that I would be parking my car at a certain place. They usually go in search of hikers if they don’t return to their cars by nightfall.

It took me only about an hour to walk to the Nova painting, but it took about 3 hours for me to walk back.

I’m sure you’re familiar with all the news reports on KOB and the other stations about the lost and dead hikers. About two weeks ago a lady policewoman didn’t show up at work after her vacation was over, so they sent teams out to find her. She was lost in the woods. They finally found her two days later. She was ok.

[soylentgreen]

I'm a bit lazy and frighteningly out of shape, but I have to believe that I've gotten a little more useful survival tips from watching "Survivorman" and repeated viewings of Cornel Wilde running for his life in NAKED PREY, than I would have from paying The Boulder Outdoor Survival School a couple of grand to try to kill me. :think:

Watching something on TV doesn't really compare to actually doing anything, except maybe watching something else on TV.

Going through a survuval exercise gives the experience of survivng, actually using what is learned. Watching TV gives the experience of watching TV, plus the added bonus of maybe getting really good with the clicker.


Good Lord! This forum is in desperate need of a "facetious" smiley.

Besides my core point is that their approach - paying several thousand dollars to have some "survival experts" sell survival basics to you by the sheer result of you managing to survive the process - seems a bit surreal.

[Gillianren]

You know, when I was a child, our local library had this Hardy Boys book wherein the Hardy Boys teach you survival tips for all sorts of things. (The only one I vividly remember is hypothermia, which is of course the opposite of what would have been helpful in this instance.) The point is, you don't learn how to survive by not dying unless you're going about it the inefficient way. Learn the techniques first, then put them into use so you know you understand them. Less risk of, you know, death.

[Sam5]

You know, when I was a child, our local library had this Hardy Boys book wherein the Hardy Boys teach you survival tips for all sorts of things.

Yeah, and we had boy scout and cub scout training in the 1950s, plus “duck and cover” A-bomb attack training. Lol, we could survive A-bomb attacks.

You know, I was thinking.... suppose some people paid a “guide” to take them hiking in downtown Manhattan in the heat of the summer when the temperature is 100 degrees, and then the guide does NOT tell them to take along enough food and water and he does NOT allow them to stop in restaurants for food and water. I’ll bet some Manhattan hikers would die too, if they were force-marched for hours up and down the city in the summer without adequate food and water.

[sts60]

Especially considering the humidity. At least in the desert (I grew up in southern Arizona and have spent considerable time in Colorado and New Mexico as well) your evaporative cooling is more efficient.

As for this "give you a cup" baloney,... I am in total agreement with Ronald Brak's assessment as to the proper use of that cup.

past those false limits your mind has set for your body.

Nature is not impressed by such slogans. There are limits past which you can push yourself. But there are other limits you can't no matter what your attitude.

[Frantic Freddie]

Several years ago I hiked about 3-1/2 miles in Chaco Canyon to see the ancient Nova rock painting. It was about 90 degrees outside that day. I took about half a gallon of water, and a bunch of food. Plus, I signed in at the ranger station to let them know I was hiking and that I would be parking my car at a certain place. They usually go in search of hikers if they don’t return to their cars by nightfall.

It took me only about an hour to walk to the Nova painting, but it took about 3 hours for me to walk back.

I’m sure you’re familiar with all the news reports on KOB and the other stations about the lost and dead hikers. About two weeks ago a lady policewoman didn’t show up at work after her vacation was over, so they sent teams out to find her. She was lost in the woods. They finally found her two days later. She was ok.

Chaco's a rough area,we made the mistake of going last year in July (never go to Chaco in the middle of the summer!) & in only 3 hours of just walking around the ruins we went thru almost a gallon of water.

And of course there's always some darn fool being rescued off the La Luz or Crest Trail,no water,no warm clothing,despite the warning signs that IT GETS REAL COLD WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN!!!

[Gillianren]

Nature is not impressed by such slogans. There are limits past which you can push yourself. But there are other limits you can't no matter what your attitude.

Exactly right. Besides, if you're in poor shape to begin with, you should start slowly. Maybe a twenty-minute walk around your own neighborhood instead of an all-day walk in the desert with insufficient water.

[SolusLupus]

Yeah, and we had boy scout and cub scout training in the 1950s, plus “duck and cover” A-bomb attack training. Lol, we could survive A-bomb attacks.

Yeah, I majored in that... oh, wait, before my time. Y'old fogey!

You know, I was thinking.... suppose some people paid a “guide” to take them hiking in downtown Manhattan in the heat of the summer when the temperature is 100 degrees, and then the guide does NOT tell them to take along enough food and water and he does NOT allow them to stop in restaurants for food and water. I’ll bet some Manhattan hikers would die too, if they were force-marched for hours up and down the city in the summer without adequate food and water.

Wait, what? The guide goes NOT tell them to take along enough food and water, or tells them NOT to? There's a very big difference here, that draws the line between the Darwin Awards and bad leadership.

[Sam5]

Chaco's a rough area,we made the mistake of going last year in July (never go to Chaco in the middle of the summer!) & in only 3 hours of just walking around the ruins we went thru almost a gallon of water.

And of course there's always some darn fool being rescued off the La Luz or Crest Trail,no water,no warm clothing,despite the warning signs that IT GETS REAL COLD WHEN THE SUN GOES DOWN!!!

Yeah, people wouldn't normally think they could suffer from hypothermia in the Southwestern desert in the summer, but it does get cold at night. Chaco and where I live are at about 5,000 feet elevation. The high deserts can get very cold at night.

I think one of the main problems with tourists is that maybe they can walk 5 miles in a city or the subburbs, but that’s with a McDonald’s and a Burger King every quarter mile.

[Sam5]

Yeah, I majored in that... oh, wait, before my time. Y'old fogey!

Lol, yeah. All my life I jumped whenever anyone took a flash picture. I kept wanting to duck and cover.


Wait, what? The guide goes NOT tell them to take along enough food and water, or tells them NOT to? There's a very big difference here, that draws the line between the Darwin Awards and bad leadership.

Well, I figure that if the Utah guide made sure everyone carried a “cup” along on the hike, rather than telling them to carry several canteens of water, then he expects them to drink ditch water if they are able to find it. A person doesn’t need to take a cup along if he has a couple of canteens of water, and no one should go hiking in Utah with a cup rather than a canteen. That’s just plain stupid, like going on an ocean tour with no boat.

[Frantic Freddie]

Yeah, people wouldn't normally think they could suffer from hypothermia in the Southwestern desert in the summer, but it does get cold at night. Chaco and where I live are at about 5,000 feet elevation. The high deserts can get very cold at night.

I think one of the main problems with tourists is that maybe they can walk 5 miles in a city or the subburbs, but that’s with a McDonald’s and a Burger King every quarter mile.


Actually Chaco's 6000 to 6500,according to my USGS topo maps.

I'm on the east side of the mountains,at 6800 feet.We keep a lot of extra shirts & sweaters around for people who don't believe me when I tell 'em to bring one when they come for dinner.

[Sam5]

Actually Chaco's 6000 to 6500,according to my USGS topo maps.

I'm on the east side of the mountains,at 6800 feet.We keep a lot of extra shirts & sweaters around for people who don't believe me when I tell 'em to bring one when they come for dinner.

Yeah, it's funny about how the mountains and high desert can be hot during the day and cold during the night. In the dead of winter, this desert around me runs around 16 to 22 degrees F in the winter. Sometimes there is snow on the cactus.

[Gillianren]

Wait, what? The guide goes NOT tell them to take along enough food and water, or tells them NOT to? There's a very big difference here, that draws the line between the Darwin Awards and bad leadership.

And, indeed, criminal liability. They are, according to what we're told, not allowed to bring canteens. The guides say there are plenty of water sources along the route.

[GDwarf]

And, indeed, criminal liability. They are, according to what we're told, not allowed to bring canteens. The guides say there are plenty of water sources along the route.
Which raises the question, if there's plenty of water why does it matter if they bring it along? No, I'm not buying it, the only reason I can think of for telling people to not bring water is so that you can force them to go a long time without it, as such the water sources can't be all that frequent.

[Sam5]

The people who sign up for these kinds of Western hikes and survival camps probably have to sign contracts that contain “hold harmless” clauses that state they realize they might be harmed during the experience and they will not leagally hold the sponsor responsible if they are harmed.

[HenrikOlsen]

And, indeed, criminal liability. They are, according to what we're told, not allowed to bring canteens. The guides say there are plenty of water sources along the route.
This says criminal stupidity to me, since the person's basically dead if they get off the trail.

[Gillianren]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that while signing the agreement may protect the company from civil suits, it won't protect them from criminal proceedings.

[Sam5]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that while signing the agreement may protect the company from civil suits, it won't protect them from criminal proceedings.

Well, that's looking at it from an Eastern or a West Coast point of view.

These Southwestern states usually don't prosecute tour guides, especially if the tourists have signed "hold harmless" agreements.

If they prosecuted tour guides, that would end commercial rafting, commercial hiking, hot air balloon rides, etc., etc. Tourism is a big business out here.

[Gillianren]

Oh, I'm not suggesting they prosecute tour guides. I'm suggesting they prosecute whoever instituted such a remarkably stupid policy as not permitting people in the desert to carry water.

Also, it seems that, if they wouldn't do that in "the Southwest" (ignoring that, at least technically, the part of California in which I grew up is in the Southwest), the Southwest has less concern for human life. Good thing to brag about.

[GDwarf]

I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that while signing the agreement may protect the company from civil suits, it won't protect them from criminal proceedings.
I dunno if it'll even protect them from civil suits, all it is is the guy saying that he realises that there is a risk, I doubt that they told him ahead of time that he'd get one cup of water for a day's march and that they'd ignore his requests for help.