Do schools favor girls?

[Titana]

According to this article they do.


Studies have long shown that boys in the United States and around the world do not read or write as well as girls. There are several reasons, according to the common wisdom:

Girls mature more quickly.
Boys are more likely to suffer dyslexia and other reading disorders.
Race and poverty play a role.

But a new study finds that the problem cuts across socioeconomic lines and pins part of the blame squarely on schools, whose techniques cater to the strengths of girls and leave boys utterly disinterested......:think:


Here (http://www.livescience.com/othernews/060718_illiterate_boys.html)



Titana

[BigDon]

Have I finally lived long enough to see white called black and up called down? Who wrote that? What planet do they live on? Studies have shown? I think if livescience.com can't filter their reporting any better than that, it makes the whole site suspect. I guess they didn't see the 50's, 60's and 70's. Whoever wrote that must have been born in the mid 80's and was probably a misogymist. Help me out here ladies.

[Ilya]

Have I finally lived long enough to see white called black and up called down? Who wrote that? What planet do they live on? Studies have shown? I think if livescience.com can't filter their reporting any better than that, it makes the whole site suspect.
Did you actually READ the article??
I guess they didn't see the 50's, 60's and 70's.
Guess what -- schools and their approaches changed A LOT since 50's, 60's and 70's.
Whoever wrote that must have been born in the mid 80's and was probably a misogymist. Help me out here ladies.
The study was done by a WOMAN psychologist.

"In an interview, one boy summed up the problem for Kleinfeld. He said: "Why would anyone want to read novels? They aren't even true!"
Does that sound misogynistic to you?

[Moose]

Thanks, Ilya. [Original post removed as it is no longer necessary.]

[Moose]

More to the point, I also am surprised by and am somewhat suspicious of the conclusion of this study. It doesn't really jybe with my own experiences. Either as a student or (briefly) as a teacher.

[NEOWatcher]

Ok; so literature as a whole is slanted toward the female. But what about other subjects? I've heard all my life that math and science favor the boys. And what about socioeconomic class? "If buffy drove her mercedes...". Does that mean they favor the rich? YOU CANT PLEASE EVERYONE (although you can try).
I do think it is an important point to consider when designing curriculum, but to make a big public deal out of it is a little un-necessary.

[Nicolas]

After a friend read the article out loud for me, I can only say that the male reading problem does not exist ;).

Seriously though. I am not interested in 99% of fictional literature. That was a problem when we were obliged to read some in high school. However, the texts we read to learn to read were short, so there it never was a problem. At the end of primary school we used books to read, but as this was in a controlled class environment it was just an obligatory read, so disinterest couldn't stop me there :).

Conclusion: I learned to read even though I don't like literature, because up to the point where you're supposed to have learned all about reading (speed), there were no long texts for us to read outside the controlled school environment.

I can imagine though, that it must be quite bad if you have to wrestle yourself through a book you're not interested in, in order to get the reading practice, but you have to do it in your own time. But the same goes for early maths. I made all the exercises because it was during class. At home it would have been a pain. But of course you can't skip a math exercise (homework) as you can skip parts of a book :).

[BigDon]

Did you actually READ the article??
Hi Ilya, no I didn't, it sounded like bullsugar to me from the start. You got me there.

Guess what -- schools and their approaches changed A LOT since 50's, 60's and 70's.
Yes they have. I never denied it. And change does not ever mean "Change for the better" I know.

The study was done by a WOMAN psychologist
You've never met a woman who hated her own gender? How lucky for you.

Does that sound misogynistic to you?
Nope. Sounds like cherry picking to me. I was at a party and at our table was a male model who got very uncomfortable when the subject turned to liturature. Until he actually blurted out, "I read a book once!" What does that prove? I can tell you with some truth that I lost count on all the books I've read by the time I was 17. Haven't slowed down yet. Does that negate the guy in your study? Are we back to zero evidence? No.

All this shows is people aren't instilling discipline in their children and are expecting the school to act as parents. That or pharmacopia. Boys are hard to control, and are not going to bear down when given all kinds of options not to.

I see it around here all the time. They walk down the street without fear of their fellow man's opinion like any old behavior is acceptable. (I'm referring to extreme rudeness, clothing that reveals their bare backsides, or guys that think they can slap their girlfriends around in public and not get their asses kicked hard.) So yes, there is a problem. Just not the problem that author states.

[Gillianren]

I went to school in a fairly liberal school in the 90s, and in some of my math/science classes, I could actually see the bias. Not all of them, gods know--for one, there were only two boys in my physics class, and that's out of about fourteen people--but I remember it fairly vividly in algebra. The boys got real answers. The girls did, too, but they also got an attitude of surprise that they'd asked the questions in the first place.

Actually, now I think about it, I think at least some of the time, my beloved English teacher from 11th and 12th grade also showed a certain bias towards the boys--and the substitute who briefly replaced her when she died certainly did.

[farmerjumperdon]

I think this is just the latest trend in looking for excuses for those that fail.

I'm relatively familiar with the topic because our school district is going to conduct an experiment next year in single gender classrooms. They sent some brief summaries home with the kids, and referred to a few studies.

Their experiment is based on findings like:

<> Boys and girls learn differently, on average.
<> Boys are better at some things than girls, on average.
<> Girls are better at some things than boys, on average.
<> Girls mature faster than boys, on average.
<> Girls are more studious than boys, on average.
<> Boys are more rowdy than girls, on average.

(The one thing you can always count on from these kinds of studies is that they are very good at spending money to tell us things that only someone living in a cultural vacumm would not know).

My guess is that if a student is not average in most, if not all, ways; they will not be very well served by separation from the opposite sex. Which will then send the apologists looking for the next excuse for failing.

Put it another way, how many other variables in learning ability can we identify, and should we start splitting classes into finer and finer graduations until everyone is set up in their own little perfect learning environment?

[Makgraf]

Put it another way, how many other variables in learning ability can we identify, and should we start splitting classes into finer and finer graduations until everyone is set up in their own little perfect learning environment?

Well actually that's what the article suggests we do :).

"Here's a fascinating fact," she said. "There is no literacy gap in home-schooled boys and girls."

"Why? In school, teachers emphasize reading literature and talking about character and feelings," she said. "This way of teaching reading does not turn boys on. Boys prefer reading nonfiction, such as history and adventure books. When they are taught at home, parents are more likely to let them follow their interests."

[Tinaa]

I live in Texas and the favored group is the football players.

Teachers tend to teach the way they themselves learn. If I am a visual learner, I will probably use lots of graphics. This does not reach the child that learns by listening. Plus, the short stories on the HS approved curriculum in Texas really suck. Even I cannot get interested in the stories.

[GDwarf]

"Here's a fascinating fact," she said. "There is no literacy gap in home-schooled boys and girls."

"Why? In school, teachers emphasize reading literature and talking about character and feelings," she said. "This way of teaching reading does not turn boys on. Boys prefer reading nonfiction, such as history and adventure books. When they are taught at home, parents are more likely to let them follow their interests."
Evidently I'm abnormal, as is every single male LotR fan...

[BigDon]

Okay, my younger brother who posts mainly on political forums and apparently hates people who comment on articles they haven't read took Ilyas side and made me read it. I was right in my first post.

Having wasted 45 seconds of my life that I can't get back only confirmed what I had already intuited. Mainly that its National Enquirer grade reporting.

[Ilya]

Put it another way, how many other variables in learning ability can we identify, and should we start splitting classes into finer and finer graduations until everyone is set up in their own little perfect learning environment?
An impossible goal, of course, but not at all undesirable IMO.

[snarkophilus]

Evidently I'm abnormal, as is every single male LotR fan...

Yup, boys don't like fiction. Or literature. That's why most Star Trek fans are female. Same with Star Wars. And why every single guy I know has not read Hitchhiker's Guide and Ender's Game. And why nobody ever read the Conan books, or Dune. Or the masses of shounen manga produced in Japan every week. Beowulf? Guys are sure to hate that one.</sarcasm>

*nonchalantly pushes new book cases into a corner*

Anyway, I was always taught that you get out of school exactly what you put into it, regardless of anything else. I had some teachers who favoured girls, and some who favoured boys, and it didn't matter in the slightest as long as I didn't worry about it and just did my best. Did I hate having to read stories about horses for the entire sixth grade? Heck yes. Did that really change how much I learned? Not likely.

Splitting classes up is a poor idea, I think. The most important thing to learn in school is how to deal with other people, people with different interests and beliefs and ways of thinking. If my parents had just wanted me to learn math and reading, they'd have just taught me themselves (and I'd have graduated many years earlier). But that's not the most important part of early education.

Speaking of school-age stories... anyone remember "Leningen Versus the Ants"? There's a perfect example of a story written with the male audience in mind.

[Lurker]

Yeah... girls always have it easier... teacher's pets... :eh:

ducks thrown objects and runs for cover!! :eek:

Oh come on... it was just a bad joke... :p

[Titana]

Splitting classes up is a poor idea, I think. The most important thing to learn in school is how to deal with other people, people with different interests and beliefs and ways of thinking. If my parents had just wanted me to learn math and reading, they'd have just taught me themselves (and I'd have graduated many years earlier). But that's not the most important part of early education.


Well put........;)



Titana

[Nicolas]

Their experiment is based on findings like:

<> Boys and girls learn differently, on average.
<> Boys are better at some things than girls, on average.
<> Girls are better at some things than boys, on average.
<> Girls mature faster than boys, on average.
<> Girls are more studious than boys, on average.
<> Boys are more rowdy than girls, on average.

(The one thing you can always count on from these kinds of studies is that they are very good at spending money to tell us things that only someone living in a cultural vacumm would not know).


Indeed, this in only beaten by studies presenting facts, and then giving a political correct interpretation to it as if it is a fact as well.

I have seen this study result:

Girls get lower grades in high school than boys on average. (I did not know, but apparently that was factual). Explanation: girls are smarter, but they're unsure about themselves.

I wonder, how do they measure "unsureness"? And intelligence, with an IQ test? Maybe boys are smarter but more unsure on an IQ test? Or smarter but more distracted? Sure they had a distraction measurement accompanying the IQ tests? How do they distinguish being unsure from spending not enough effort on finding the correct answer from multiple possibilities, or spending not enough effort on mastering the courses with "I can't do it anyway" as excuse?

I don't really care about who is smarter or more sure of him/herself on average, my point is that a conclusion that is based on clearly vague or incomplete factors does not prove a thing. If the facts are not politically correct, so be it.

[ToSeek]

I live in Texas and the favored group is the football players.


Yes, I've heard stories about Texas schools, like when the town has to choose between a new library for the school and a new football stadium. Guess what they pick?

[GDwarf]

Yes, I've heard stories about Texas schools, like when the town has to choose between a new library for the school and a new football stadium. Guess what they pick?
That seems to be true around here too, my school just spent about $200 000 on a new gym floor, a new outdoor track and two new scoreboards, meanwhile the comps in our library were new about 6 years ago.

[HenrikOlsen]

On the other hand, in Denmark some schools have turned required swimming education into theoretical courses since it's apparently too expensive to send the kids into real water.

[NEOWatcher]

Yes, I've heard stories about Texas schools, like when the town has to choose between a new library for the school and a new football stadium. Guess what they pick?
That one is common. Sports bring in ticket and concession sales, libraries don't. (sigh)

[Gillianren]

Our football team was one and thirteen and one my senior year, as I recall, but the academic competitions regularly needed money to send a person or team and the coach to state and then world finals. (Well, I think we might've been the only team in Odyssey of the Mind that got to Worlds. But the Future Problem Solving kids sent someone every year I was there.)

[jrkeller]

Yes, I've heard stories about Texas schools, like when the town has to choose between a new library for the school and a new football stadium. Guess what they pick?

Two years ago our school board had a bond issue and on it was a 25 million dollar football stadium. Fortunately wisdom prevailed and it was voted down. At the same time at my old high school in Michigan, they rebuilt their football stadium for $750,000, all from private funds.

[Tobin Dax]

Evidently I'm abnormal, as is every single male LotR fan...
I guess this really shows I'm not normal. The only non-fiction I read were books on dinosaurs and Greek mythology (though these interests seem like they're normal to me). I guess there were some space books that I read around the age of ten that were non-fiction-ish. Still, I was more likely to read mysteries or science fiction than anything else from sixth grade on. I also never cared much for history.

Oh, and what "adventure books" are non-fiction? Wouldn't many more fiction books fit in that category?

[Gillianren]

Oh, and what "adventure books" are non-fiction? Wouldn't many more fiction books fit in that category?

Exactly right. This is yet another reason I try to avoid sweeping generalizations like "boys don't like fiction." For further proof, spend, say, an hour in your local bookstore watching the sci-fi/fantasy section. While there will be girls (ones like me, for a start!), there are usually more boys.

[Tinaa]

I was just in our city library and found myself sharing a SF/Fantasy aisle with three prepubescent boys. I rarely see girls in that section. I know my girls liked to read the typical "girly books" such as Sweet Valley High and the books by Judy Blume in middle school. My elder daughter has now found a love for murder mysteries and non-fiction true crime. The younger has taken to reading biographies and non-fiction books about ancient history. Kids today have the world at their fingertips via the internet.

[HenrikOlsen]

In separate research that Kleinfeld is also preparing for publication, she has possibly gotten to the root of the problem.

"Here's a fascinating fact," she said. "There is no literacy gap in home-schooled boys and girls."

"Why? In school, teachers emphasize reading literature and talking about character and feelings," she said. "This way of teaching reading does not turn boys on. Boys prefer reading nonfiction, such as history and adventure books. When they are taught at home, parents are more likely to let them follow their interests."
I'd rather say boys tend to prefer reading books where things happen rather than where things are felt, so I would actually see that study as to the point, except in the unfortunate idea that they think the alternative to touchy-feely fiction is non-fiction, instead of action fiction.

[Ilya]

Enough anectodes, how about some statistics?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm

[Monique]

My experience say no!!

Enough anectodes, how about some statistics?

http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-10-19-male-college-cover_x.htm
Is because women are more smart. :)

[farmerjumperdon]

An impossible goal, of course, but not at all undesirable IMO.

Agreed, it would be desireable from a purely academic point of view, but as someone pointed out in a very well put post - school is as much about building social skills as anything.

It is possible to achieve a perfect academic envrironment (we did it by homeschooling for a year after we had a fallout with our 1st school district), but it is an incredible amount of work (it's basically another full-time job) and again, there is the social thing.

The most important thing we are teaching at home now is avoiding (or dealing with) toxic people and toxic relationships.

[Jeff Root]

Like a typical male, I haven't bothered to read most of this thread.
I just want to ask about a side comment in the last post:


The most important thing we are teaching at home now is
avoiding (or dealing with) toxic people and toxic relationships.
How do you teach something like that??? Seems easy to
do, impossible to teach. I suppose that for some, it may
be the other way around...

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[snarkophilus]

I'd rather say boys tend to prefer reading books where things happen rather than where things are felt, so I would actually see that study as to the point, except in the unfortunate idea that they think the alternative to touchy-feely fiction is non-fiction, instead of action fiction.

Things happen versus things felt: the "show, don't tell" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Show_don%27t_tell) rule. All good stories should have things happen, and the feelings ought to be implied by the actions. (This is unless you're looking for a Nobel or some other literary award. Then you need to write something that sucks as much as possible.)

I think it's more a matter of what you identify with. Guys don't want to hear about a girl's problems growing up with her three sisters, and girls typically don't get into the soldier mindset all that well. But both stories should include the same amount of action. It's just the type and setting of the action that makes interest vary.