Blunders that cost a fortune

[sarongsong]

From BusinessDay (http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/markets.aspx?ID=BD4A267962):
In 1891, pharmacist John Pemberton sold the formula of his weird brown health drink named Coca-Cola...for $2300...In 1980...IBM asked software genius Gary Kildall to supply an operating system for their PCs. When he turned them down, the firm went to Bill Gates...

[Gillianren]

And let's not forget The Postman.

Let's also note that Paul McCartney did everything he could to try to get those rights--unto actually hitting up Yoko for cash. He was outbid, pure and simple.

[peteshimmon]

The British Government regularly writes off
hundreds of millions of Pounds Sterling for
failed software systems! I reckon its a
superior welfare benefit for the blighters. grrr

[Gillianren]

Oh, yeah, on rereading the article--do they mean Michael Jackson and Sony? If not, who's Sonny?

[Nereid]

The British Government regularly writes off
hundreds of millions of Pounds Sterling for
failed software systems! I reckon its a
superior welfare benefit for the blighters. grrrNot sure if it's the same elsewhere, but what's particularly stupid about much of what they (the various government agencies) do is focus heavily on the lowest priced bids - not that a higher price is any guaranty from failure - far from it! - but that approach tends to produce sub-optimal behaviour (like a supplier low-balling to win the business, then negotiating lots of additional projects, or fees, to fix up what they knew would fail, even as they submitted the bid).

[hhEb09'1]

Oh, yeah, on rereading the article--do they mean Michael Jackson and Sony? If not, who's Sonny?Nobody :)

It was just Jackson that bought the songs. He and Sony merged their music publishing businesses later, I think.

[Trebuchet]

And regarding the mention of IBM and Gates in the OP, don't forget that instead of simply hiring Gates to develop an OS for them but retaining full ownership of it, IBM let him sell it to their competitors. They're out of the PC business now.

[Donnie B.]

Oh, yeah, on rereading the article--do they mean Michael Jackson and Sony? If not, who's Sonny?Short guy. Funny voice. Married and divorced Cher. Skiied into a tree.

[sarongsong]

...instead of simply hiring Gates to develop an OS for them but retaining full ownership of it, IBM let him sell it to their competitors...IIRC, there's a story as to how Gates & Co. snagged the basis for the OS from someone else, too.

[hhEb09'1]

IIRC, there's a story as to how Gates & Co. snagged the basis for the OS from someone else, too.Tim Paterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Paterson), who was basically (eh) knocking off Gary Kildall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall) (mentioned earlier). Interestingly, according to that, Kildall wrote a memoir about the affair that has never been published.

[TriangleMan]

In 1891, pharmacist John Pemberton sold the formula of his weird brown health drink named Coca-Cola to Asa Candler, an Atlanta entrepreneur, for $2300.
Firstly $2300 in 1891 was a heck of a lot of money. Secondly if Pemberton and the other shareholders hadn't sold the formula would Coca-Cola have gone on to be the success that it was? Candler was instrumental in the initial marketing strategy for Coke.

And I agree about the Paul McCartney saga not being a blunder, he tried his best to buy the rights but got outbid by MJ. I don't think Paul has yet forgiven MJ for that.

[Launch window]

Millennium Dome has been costing the UK government a fortune, now that they have won the Olympic Games bid they may finally make some cash out of it.

Ariane Flight 501 in 96 was arguably one of the most expensive computer bugs in history.

No cash for levee repairs in New Orleans has become a Billion dollar blunder

Kansai-Airport another construction blunder - the Japanese airport that is debt ridden and is literally sinking back into the Ocean despite the billions of yen spent

China's attempt to 'liberate' the Vietnamese ( after the world's greatest superpower America already tried to to the same )

Sony's XCP and its laptop batteries

Keeping most of America's Fleet in Pearl during 1941 was a tactical blunder by the US military

[Andromeda321]

Seeing as this is an astronomy board, don't forget the mirror sent up on Hubble that cost a few billion dollars to fix. If I recall, the blunder there was the company used a new device to test the mirror's curvature which told them it was perfect, then they used an older device which told them otherwise. They then concluded that the older one "must be wrong" without further tests, and sent the mirror off.
And of course the true irony was there was a backup mirror for Hubble that could've been installed very easily and quickly!

[Dave Mitsky]

Napoleon's invasion of Russia
The Louisiana Purchase (the sale by France)
"Seward’s Folly" (the sale of Alaska by Russia)
Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union (Russia)
The Cold War (on both sides)
The STS
THe SCSC
The ISS
The invasion of Iraq

Dave Mitsky

[hhEb09'1]

Napoleon's invasion of Russia
The Louisana Purchase (the sale by France)
"Seward’s Folly" (the sale of Alaska by Russia)
Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union (Russia)
The Cold War (on both sides)
The STS
THe SCSC
The ISS
The invasion of Iraq

Dave MitskyI'm going to venture to disagree with the tenth one, but I don't really have all the details

Otherwise, it looks good (and the parenthetical on Hitler's invasion doesn't quite mean the same as the others in the list, right?)

[mugaliens]

Short guy. Funny voice. Married and divorced Cher. Skiied into a tree.

Don't forget he was elected to Congress, as well as having a nationally syndicated TV show with his half-breed (or so she claimed in one of her songs) (ex)-wife.

Cute daughter.

[Metricyard]

How about the Texas super collider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider) that was never finished? What a waste of 2 Billion dollars.

[hhEb09'1]

How about the Texas super collider (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superconducting_Super_Collider) that was never finished? What a waste of 2 Billion dollars.Mitsky mentioned it, the SCSC.

[Doodler]

Skylab.
N-1
X-33
The Columbia module.
Mars Climate Orbiter
Beagle 2
Phobos 1 and 2
B-70 Valkyrie

[Arneb]

And please don't forgt Genesis' deceleration detctors mounted the wrong way :(

[Doodler]

And please don't forgt Genesis' deceleration detctors mounted the wrong way :(

I'm trying hard to do just that, actually. That still sucks to watch.

[Gillianren]

The Louisiana Purchase (the sale by France)
"Seward’s Folly" (the sale of Alaska by Russia)

I'm definitely going to quibble with the first one and make a minor nitpick on the second, here.

When Napoleon sold Louisiana and "surrounding territories" to the US, it was because his army was hopelessly overextended. After all, he was both fighting a major war in Europe and trying to hold onto Haiti after a rebellion. He couldn't do that and hold his North American colony, too. Since he certainly would have lost the territory when he lost the war, only probably to England and Spain, I really can't consider this a blunder.

And "Seward's Folly" was only called such in the US, where the purchase of Alaska has certainly not turned out to be a blunder. I don't know much of anything about it from the Russian side.

Oh, and mugaliens, you're not Sonny's daughter's type.

[Arneb]

You have my full sympathy.

Oh, talking of bad blunders...sometimes they don't just cost money
Chernobyl, anyone?
The cold don't to nothing to this here O-ring.
Yeah,but that's just some flaky styrofoam falling off.

By the way, the term "gross negligence" was once defined for me by a law person as "oh, it'll be alright, won't it?"

S true

[MrClean]

Hey, what was wrong with the Valkyrie? It was a good testbed and probalby kept us from spending too much money on a mach 3 bomber fleet. Also fooled the Russians into building an interceptor just for it. Just another expense they couldn't afford while the average person was standing in line for toilet paper.

The XB70 and the YF-12/SR-71 are just God's ride.

[davidlpf]

How about new coke
or the 1976 summer games in montreal

[Doodler]

Hey, what was wrong with the Valkyrie? It was a good testbed and probalby kept us from spending too much money on a mach 3 bomber fleet. Also fooled the Russians into building an interceptor just for it. Just another expense they couldn't afford while the average person was standing in line for toilet paper.

The XB70 and the YF-12/SR-71 are just God's ride.

They were great planes, just a pity the program really went nowhere after all that development. Even more tragic was the accident that took down the second prototype.

[PhantomWolf]

If you think that Coke went cheap....

The safety pin was invented while Walter Hunt was twisting a piece of wire, trying to think of something that would help him pay off a fifteen dollar debt. On April 10, 1849, the safety pin was patented. Walter Hunt also thought little of his safety pin as an invention and soon sold the patent for four hundred dollars.

[Ronald Brak]

The Kansai Airport was mentioned so I'll throw in the new Hong Kong airport. 20 billion dollars to create an artificial island while China was offering free land on the mainland that could have been linked to Hong Kong with high speed rail. This blunder cost every Hong Kong resident an average of about $2,500 U.S. more than they needed to pay.

[Maksutov]

RCA CED SelectaVision System
The Ford Edsel
Ishtar
Thalidomide
The Tacoma Narrows Bridge ("Galloping Gertie")
Microsoft Bob
The Ford Pinto
Iridium, Inc.
The executive at Decca Records who turned Brian Epstein and the band he represented down flat and informed him that "Guitar groups are on the way out, Mr. Epstein."

[TriangleMan]

Looks like Walter Hunt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Hunt) invented more than just the safety pin. Looks like his skill was inventing rather than marketing. Again I'm not sure if he'd have made his inventions the successes they are today had he held onto them. (the safety pin patent was sold for about $12k-$15k equivalent dollars, not bad)

[Gillianren]

Heck, could he have gotten backing? (Hey, TriangleMan, I must have missed it--what are you doing in Qatar?)

[TriangleMan]

Hey, TriangleMan, I must have missed it--what are you doing in Qatar?
It's where I work now. I moved from Bermuda a little while ago but just updated my location info in the last few days. Accountants are needed everywhere! :)

[Nicolas]

The Columbia module.

That was "just" 88 million dollars and the reason it failed was the accompanying shuttle disintegrating. Do you mean the Columbus module? If so, why is it a blunder?

The Ford Pinto

Now that car was a lot of bang for the buck ;)

[Doodler]

Maybe I've got the wrong name, I was referring to the fully built living quarters module intended for the ISS that's now sitting useless in storage because it won't be flying.

[Captain Kidd]

Ice condenser nuclear plants. There's a prime example of a snake oil salesman.

"Save millions in construction costs!!!*"


*Spend tens of millions in maintenance.

[Nicolas]

Maybe I've got the wrong name, I was referring to the fully built living quarters module intended for the ISS that's now sitting useless in storage because it won't be flying.


The Columbus module is the European ISS lab, and for all I know it will be flying.

[George]

Apollo 1 - Using an oxygen-rich environment to minimize cabin pressure.
Apollo 13 - Failure to change the voltage rating from 28v to 65v on the command module's thermostatic heaters.

Mars Climate Orbiter - forgetting to do the metric conversion causing it to undershoot its target altitude and burn up in the atmosphere.

The Chevy Nova - reportedly their sales were very poor in Latin American countries since it means - "No Go" :)

The 1967 Chevy Impala (like we need another Impala around here ;) ) with a JATO (Jet Assisted Take-Off) causing the driver to become an uncontrolled pilot. This, however, is a bogus blunder because it is unverifiable. It likely never happened. Andy Granitelli did install two weaker early versions of the JATO rocket but, fortunately, only one fired and pushed him to 150mph.

[hhEb09'1]

This, however, is a bogus blunder because it is unverifiable. It likely never happened.So is the Chevy Nova story, no? I'm pretty sure that one's on snopes

[Gillianren]

http://www.snopes.com/business/misxlate/nova.asp, yes.

Also, http://www.snopes.com/autos/dream/jato.asp.

[Moose]

Yeah, the Chevy Nova story is BoguS. The thrust of it is that "No Va" would be seriously broken spanish. (Snopes has the proper translations, as I recall, along with the rest of the story. Uncle Cecil probably has an article up too.) It would be a little like naming a car a Nogo. Good for a giggle, but seriously, would a less-than-stellar name really be enough to keep you from buying an otherwise fair-to-good car?

[Edit to add:]

Yes. There, the links are. To Gillan-Ren you listen!

[NEOWatcher]

Yeah, the Chevy Nova story is BoguS. The thrust of it is that "No Va" would be seriously broken spanish...
I really don't think the "broken" language would have an effect. Usually, if a product is bad, people will break the language just to make it sound worse.
Although informative, I believe snopes could have emphasized it differently. The main point in my mind is, it did sell well with the name Nova.

If the name had that big of an influence, then how come "You Go" was not a big seller in the "You Ess"?

[Doodler]

I really don't think the "broken" language would have an effect. Usually, if a product is bad, people will break the language just to make it sound worse.
Although informative, I believe snopes could have emphasized it differently. The main point in my mind is, it did sell well with the name Nova.

If the name had that big of an influence, then how come "You Go" was not a big seller in the "You Ess"?

Because we read it as "Yugo" meaning Yugoslavia, equalling Eastern European junk. Whether that impression was fair or not aside.

[George]

So is the Chevy Nova story, no? I'm pretty sure that one's on snopes
Apparently, you are correct, and I've edited my post to include another Bogus Blunder.

[korjik]

Apollo 1 - Using an oxygen-rich environment to minimize cabin pressure.


then bumping up to 17psi to do a pressure test, 'cause everyone knows oxygen couldnt be harmful

[Inferno]

How about new coke


Or though ironically the failure of new Coke turned out to be a marketing bonanza with the re-introduction of "classic" coke - sales rocketed far above what they were before new coke was introduced.

[Gillianren]

Or though ironically the failure of new Coke turned out to be a marketing bonanza with the re-introduction of "classic" coke - sales rocketed far above what they were before new coke was introduced.

. . . Leading inevitably to the (incorrect!) conspiracy theory that it was all a marketing ploy in the first place.

[jfribrg]

This thread reminds me of a political cartoon I saw in 1979 commenting on American Engineering : Picture Skylab falling into a DC10 loaded with Ford Pintos and crashes into 3 Mile Island.

[Maksutov]

Or though ironically the failure of new Coke turned out to be a marketing bonanza with the re-introduction of "classic" coke - sales rocketed far above what they were before new coke was introduced.[Leela is raised in a harness and suspended over a vat of purple goo. The Glermos stand by a control unit.]

Slurm Queen: As for you, you will be submerged in Royal Slurm which in a matter of minutes, will transform you into a Slurm Queen like myself.

Small Glermo #1: But your highness, she's a commoner. Her Slurm will taste foul.

Slurm Queen: Yes. Which is why we'll market it as New Slurm. Then, when everyone hates it, we'll bring back Slurm Classic, and make billions!

[She and the Glermos laugh. Small Glermo #1 pushes a lever down and Leela is lowered into the purple Slurm. Fry watches.]http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5154/slurmqueenng9.th.jpg (http://img217.imageshack.us/my.php?image=slurmqueenng9.jpg)

[Doodler]

This thread reminds me of a political cartoon I saw in 1979 commenting on American Engineering : Picture Skylab falling into a DC10 loaded with Ford Pintos and crashes into 3 Mile Island.

Now change that to the Mir flying into a 767 loaded with SUVs into lower Manhattan, and its good to go for the 21st century.

[Maksutov]

Nova would have been a much better name for the Ford Pinto. Think of the relationship: a dwarf star whose "tank" of accreted matter suddenly explodes under degenerate conditions and then fades into obscurity.

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/n030.gif

[George]

Nova would have been a much better name for the Ford Pinto. Think of the relationship: a dwarf star whose "tank" of accreted matter suddenly explodes under degenerate conditions and then fades into obscurity.

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/n030.gif

That would be the Ford Exploder. ;)

Has a Chevy Llama been proposed in another thread?

[sarongsong]

...with the re-introduction of "classic" coke - sales rocketed far above what they were before new coke was introduced.Real "classic" coke should contain sugar instead of whatever ["High Fructose Corn Syrup And/Or Sucrose"] they're using now (in the U.S.). "Hecho en Mexico"-bottled Coke is available here in San Diego...at $2.00/12 oz. bottle:
"Carbonated water, sugar, caramel color, phosphoric acid, natural flavors, caffeine"

[Maksutov]

That would be the Ford Exploder. ;)Funny that the sunroofs on those were exploding off their frames for while.
Has a Chevy Llama been proposed in another thread?You'd have to ask Lance (http://www.bautforum.com/member.php?u=4256).

[Dave Mitsky]

I'm definitely going to quibble with the first one and make a minor nitpick on the second, here.

When Napoleon sold Louisiana and "surrounding territories" to the US, it was because his army was hopelessly overextended. After all, he was both fighting a major war in Europe and trying to hold onto Haiti after a rebellion. He couldn't do that and hold his North American colony, too. Since he certainly would have lost the territory when he lost the war, only probably to England and Spain, I really can't consider this a blunder.

And "Seward's Folly" was only called such in the US, where the purchase of Alaska has certainly not turned out to be a blunder. I don't know much of anything about it from the Russian side.

Oh, and mugaliens, you're not Sonny's daughter's type.

Regarding the Lousisiana Purchase, I disagree with your quibble. Given what the territory was worth, it was seriously underpriced, a mere $390 billion in 2003 US dollars. That was the blunder.

Obviously, the sale of the land by Russia (to the US), as I said, was the blunder. "Seward's Folly" was anything but that for the United States, as time would amply tell.

Dave Mitsky

[Nicolas]

Real "classic" coke should contain sugar instead of whatever

For the purists, real classic coke should contain, well, coke. Though I'm afraid that would damage the image of the firm a bit ;)

[Maksutov]

For the purists, real classic coke should contain, well, coke. Though I'm afraid that would damage the image of the firm a bit ;)But think of the incredible profits until the Feds crack down, any of whom could be bought off! Enough to make an ethical CEO (as they all are) migrate to Argentina! Or, with the right lawyers, become the CEO of Enron!

http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

[Dave Mitsky]

Real "classic" coke should contain sugar instead of whatever ["High Fructose Corn Syrup And/Or Sucrose"] they're using now (in the U.S.). "Hecho en Mexico"-bottled Coke is available here in San Diego...at $2.00/12 oz. bottle:
"Carbonated water, sugar, caramel color, phosphoric acid, natural flavors, caffeine"

An acquaintance of mine who worked for Coca Cola at one time once told me the whole New Coke fiasco was a smokescreen to reintroduce Classic Coke with the dreaded high fructose corn syrup.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/18/FDGS24VKMH1.DTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fructose_corn_syrup

Dave Mitsky

[Jakenorrish]

January 1, 1962 The Beatles audition for Decca Records but are turned down, as "guitar bands are on the way out".

The guy who made that decision probably lost a few nights' sleep.....

[Maksutov]

January 1, 1962 The Beatles audition for Decca Records but are turned down, as "guitar bands are on the way out".

The guy who made that decision probably lost a few nights' sleep.....Sounds familiar for some reason. (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=823249&postcount=29) See last bullet. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

[PhantomWolf]

For the purists, real classic coke should contain, well, coke. Though I'm afraid that would damage the image of the firm a bit

True (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/cocaine.asp), but the minusule amounts would be all but undetectable.

[Jakenorrish]

Sounds familiar for some reason. (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=823249&postcount=29) See last bullet. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif

Doh, overlooked that one when I was merrily skipping through. Mind you, it was such a huge blunder that it deserved another mention!

Edited to add a grovelling :doh: !

[Gillianren]

Regarding the Lousisiana Purchase, I disagree with your quibble. Given what the territory was worth, it was seriously underpriced, a mere $390 billion in 2003 US dollars. That was the blunder.

$390 billion for land you don't entirely control anyway is better than just having it taken away, n'est-ce pas?

[Nicolas]

regarding coca cola:

When it first became general knowledge that cocaine could be harmful, the backroom chemists who comprised Coca-Cola at the time (long before it became the huge company we now know) did everything they could with the technology they had available at the time to remove every trace of cocaine from the beverage. What was left behind (until the technology improved enough for it all to be removed) wasn't enough to give a fly a buzz.

They mean removing coke traces without seriously altering the taste? If not, I assume the average 5 year old can figure out that in order to remove coke traces from coca cola, you should simply not put it in it.

[Doodler]

Regarding the Lousisiana Purchase, I disagree with your quibble. Given what the territory was worth, it was seriously underpriced, a mere $390 billion in 2003 US dollars. That was the blunder.

Obviously, the sale of the land by Russia (to the US), as I said, was the blunder. "Seward's Folly" was anything but that for the United States, as time would amply tell.

Dave Mitsky

That depends on whether you consider them a blunder from the perspective of the buyer or seller.

[triplebird]

The John Hancock Tower (http://www.pulitzer.org/year/1996/criticism/works/CRIT-MAR3.html): Wind and windows.

Union Carbide's Bhopal pesticide plant: Methyl Isocyanate gas never hurt anyone...

The Kansas City Hyatt-Regency hotel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyatt_Regency_walkway_collapse): Don't walk on the walkways.

[weatherc]

An acquaintance of mine who worked for Coca Cola at one time once told me the whole New Coke fiasco was a smokescreen to reintroduce Classic Coke with the dreaded high fructose corn syrup.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/18/FDGS24VKMH1.DTL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_fructose_corn_syrup

Dave MitskyI used to drink Coca-Cola as a kid. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but Coke just doesn't taste right now that it uses the high fructose corn syrup and is shipped in plastic bottles instead of glass. I rarely drink any kind of soda at all now (which I guess is a good thing). I would like to try a soda now that uses real sugar, and see if I like it better than any of the stuff that's available now that uses corn syrup.

[Moose]

Nova would have been a much better name for the Ford Pinto. Think of the relationship: a dwarf star whose "tank" of accreted matter suddenly explodes under degenerate conditions and then fades into obscurity.

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/n030.gif

Oh, I dunno. A car whose gas tank explodes when you hit it in the rear, seems strangely appropriate that it's named after a bean. :)

[George]

I used to drink Coca-Cola as a kid. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but Coke just doesn't taste right now that it uses the high fructose corn syrup and is shipped in plastic bottles instead of glass. I rarely drink any kind of soda at all now (which I guess is a good thing). I would like to try a soda now that uses real sugar, and see if I like it better than any of the stuff that's available now that uses corn syrup.
I think Mexico and some other countries still bottle using cane sugar. It does taste a little better, IMO.

Recently, there was a tv story on the beer battles. Miller introduced a light beer and advertised it as "Lite beer". Budwieser recognized they were weak in name identification and, hence....."Bud Lite" sales soared when introduced.

[sarongsong]

I think Mexico and some other countries still bottle using cane sugar. It does taste a little better, IMO...Coke puts out a kosher (no corn content) version, made with sugar and distinguished by yellow caps, at certain time(s?) of the year.
Back to Ford---just returned from a happy encounter with the local transmission shop. Dreading the diagnosis, I braced myself for the news. Before I could explain the T-Bird's newly acquired shifting problem in detail, the mechanic grinned and said he could fix it for ten dollars. Gasping in relief, I watched in amazement as he replaced a nylon bushing with a stainless steel one at the carburetor's sensing arm that 'told' the automatic transmission when to shift. He explained Ford had elected to use nylon, which eventually disintegrates from wear. He then pointed to a customer's Mercury, undergoing a $1500 rebuild because she had waited too long to bring it in with the same problem. Yeow!

[Jakenorrish]

Hey, I've got a good one going on in the UK at the minute. The redevelopment of Wembley stadium in London has been in the news for a long time now.....

[Graybeard6]

The Convair 880/990,
http://www.answers.com/topic/convair-880

[Lord Jubjub]

Coca-cola supposedly gets some of its taste from Coca leaves. So leaving that out would have altered the taste.

[DaveC426913]

I used to drink Coca-Cola as a kid. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but Coke just doesn't taste right now that it uses the high fructose corn syrup and is shipped in plastic bottles instead of glass.
Hey! I thought I was the only one that figured Coke's never tasted the same since they put it in plastic.

[soly]

Tesla tearing up his contract with Westinghouse on the royalties of $2.50 a horsepower of AC electricity sold.


Doooh :doh:

[Maksutov]

Originally Posted by Maksutov http://www.bautforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=823853#post823853)
Nova would have been a much better name for the Ford Pinto. Think of the relationship: a dwarf star whose "tank" of accreted matter suddenly explodes under degenerate conditions and then fades into obscurity.

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/konfus/n030.gif
Oh, I dunno. A car whose gas tank explodes when you hit it in the rear, seems strangely appropriate that it's named after a bean. :):lol:

As Carlos Mencia might say, "Bean there, done that!"

[Maksutov]

The Convair 880/990,
http://www.answers.com/topic/convair-880And the B-36 (http://www.uh.edu/engines/b36-home.jpg), an airplane designed by a committee appointed by a committee.

[Nicolas]

Hey! I thought I was the only one that figured Coke's never tasted the same since they put it in plastic.

You can buy it both in glass and in plastic here. It can taste different indeed, but I think that has more to do with staying cold longer in glass.

And then there's the mixing machines that use Coca Cola syrup. It takes a lot of experience to set them up so they taste like bottle Cola.

[sarongsong]

Coca-cola supposedly gets some of its taste from Coca leaves. So leaving that out would have altered the taste.Hmmh...January 28, 2005
...Wednesday, January 26 is a date that our readers should remember...DEVIDA (http://www.devida.gob.pe/) [Peruvian Drug Control Agency] released a ten-point official statement...point #5 in the statement says that Peru produces 52,000 tonnes of coca annually...The end of the paragraph reads: “Coca Cola, the globally recognized soft drink manufacturer, buys 115 tonnes of coca leaf from Peru and 105 tonnes from Bolivia per year, with which it produces, without alkaloids, 500 million bottles of soda per day.”...the company earn[ed] 13.3 billion dollars in net profit last year, according to their own financial reports... Narco News Bulletin (http://www.narconews.com/Issue35/article1159.html)

[Dave Mitsky]

That depends on whether you consider them a blunder from the perspective of the buyer or seller.

For the third time, from the perspective of the seller. Both purchases were overwhelming bargains for the United States.

"Louisiana Purchase...it was the greatest land bargain in U.S. history."

http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9049100/Louisiana-Purchase

"Seward's Folly...it would be shown that this no-good wasted piece of land was rich and abundant in every area ranging from natural resources and numerous species of wild animals."

http://library.thinkquest.org/22550/1867_2.html

Dave Mitsky

[Ilya]

Union Carbide's Bhopal pesticide plant: Methyl Isocyanate gas never hurt anyone...
I beg to differ. I do not know what was Union Carbide's estimate of a catastrophic accident probability, but they estimated it highly enough to place the factory in as uninhabited a region as they could find in India, rather than in a major city. It was not UC's fault that as a result of the factory being there peolpe migrated into the region and into the danger zone!

Okay, I suppose it was UC's fault - they would not get any workers if people did not move to live next to the factory. Still, at least they tried to minimize the accident impact.

[Doodler]

For the third time, from the perspective of the seller. Both purchases were overwhelming bargains for the United States.

Dave, Dave, Dave, I know that. I was being mildly sarcastic. :)

I'm pretty sure Stalin probably dug up the corpse of the idiot that signed off on that deal just to torture him again after the first wells were tapped.

[Ronald Brak]

Long before they discovered oil they struck gold in Alaska up the Klondike, so Russians may have had regrets not that long after the deal was made.

[peter eldergill]

And "Seward's Folly" was only called such in the US, where the purchase of Alaska has certainly not turned out to be a blunder. I don't know much of anything about it from the Russian side.




How about Canada's blunder not to buy Alaska? (To be fair, I don't even know if they offered...just humourous)

Pete

[Nicolas]

Hmmh...

How come no food & health organisation in the world seems to detect coca in Coca Cola (the end product)?

[tdvance]

Some less-costly mistakes, but still expensive at state/local level:

Charlottesville, VA tore down and rebuilt, higher, a bridge over railroad tracks to allow double-decker trains to start going through. However, they neglected to consider the tunnel through a mountain on the line that the trains would not be able to pass. It was too expensive to expand the tunnel, so the double decker trains never came.

Somewhere in WV and in my memory: a four-lane bridge was built for a 6-lane interstate highway. The problem was not noticed until it was time to paint the lines.

Todd

[Trebuchet]

Boston's "Big Dig" also comes to mind. I hope the folks who are pushing for a waterfront tunnel in Seattle will be forced to read the history of that over and over until they come to their senses.

[Gillianren]

Well, if we're going there, how about the fact that the Alaskan Way Viaduct in Seattle is still standing literally decades after it was intended to be replaced? It hasn't been a blunder yet, but it's one of two things that are going to prove messy when we get the big earthquake we're due to have. (The Alaskan Way Viaduct is an old stretch of double-decker road on the unstable ground of the Seattle waterfront.)

The other, of course, is right here in Olympia. During the Nisqually earthquake, Deschutes Parkway, at the bottom of the hill from my apartment and bordering Capitol Lake, started to sink. Again. It's a largely "floating" road. Now, they had two options. One, spend quite a lot of money for a version that would be a ton more seismically sound and actually stood a chance of withstanding a major earthquake. Two, spend less money and push the problem ahead to the next time the road started to sink after an earthquake, which--with the fixing job they did--is pretty much inevitably going to happen.

Guess which they chose . . . .

[Doodler]

People need to be reminded sometimes that these public works projects are ultimately paid for by taxes.

So, you get what you voted to pay for.

[PhantomWolf]

Waterworld (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0114898/)

[Donnie B.]

How come no food & health organisation in the world seems to detect coca in Coca Cola (the end product)?Well, let's look at the figures sarongsong posted.

If Coca Cola Corp buys a total of 220 tonnes of coca leaf, that's 220 * 1000kg = 220 million grams of raw coca leaf per year.

Now, let's assume that all of that is simply mashed up and added to the soft drink, with no other processing (obviously an unlikely scenario, but it's a limiting case. At 500 million bottles of Coke per day, that's 220 million grams / (500 million bottles * 365 days), or a whopping 1.2 milligrams of coca leaf in each bottle of coke.

If the above assumption were true, then you could probably detect a tiny amount of cocaine in Coke. But I'd be willing to bet a bundle that what goes into the soft drink is a flavoring extract of the leaf, with any cocaine removed and sold into the (legal) drug market.

That, or they don't put any coca at all into Coke, and just chew leaves at work all day. :think:

:D

[Nicolas]

I can already see the employees shirts "we put the coke in cola"

:D

Is it correct that you can use a coca extract without having addictive cocaine in it?

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I can already see the employees shirts "we put the coke in cola"

:D

Is it correct that you can use a coca extract without having addictive cocaine in it?
Yes, VERY Muuch So ...

That's Actually The Irony of Coca-Cola ...

They Have No Patent on The Syrup itself, Only The Inability of Other Companies to Legally Import The Leaves, Allows them to Successfully Monopolize The Marketplace!

[Nicolas]

How come no other companies can import it and they can?

And second question: was removing the cocaine while keeping the coca extract the difficulty in the early years of coca cola, or were they simply removing the cocaine without losing the taste of cocaine coca cola?

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

How come no other companies can import it and they can?

And second question: was removing the cocaine while keeping the coca extract the difficulty in the early years of coca cola, or were they simply removing the cocaine without losing the taste of cocaine coca cola?
DEA Permits Are a REAL Shame Aren't they, No Other Soft Drink Company Will Ever Be Issued One ...

As for The Taste, That Was Never Really an Issue, as I Alluded to Earlier, Without a Patent on The Syrup, All they Had Was a Name and The Company's Directors Felt that Name Had to Be Descriptive, Without The Coca and The Kola they Had No Descriptive; Ergo, No Hold on The Name ...

But, Snopes (http://www.snopes.com/cokelore/cocaine.asp) Says it Muuch Better than I Ever Could!

[Gillianren]

People need to be reminded sometimes that these public works projects are ultimately paid for by taxes.

So, you get what you voted to pay for.

Right. I'd've voted to pay for the proper refit, myself, had I been consulted. Like we really need the chaos of having two of the three ways out of west downtown Olympia closed again!

[triplebird]

I beg to differ. I do not know what was Union Carbide's estimate of a catastrophic accident probability, but they estimated it highly enough to place the factory in as uninhabited a region as they could find in India, rather than in a major city. It was not UC's fault that as a result of the factory being there peolpe migrated into the region and into the danger zone!

That is true, but I wasn't referring to the location of the UC factory with my "MIC never hurt anyone" statement. It referred to UC's reluctance to disclose what the contents of the gas leak were (i.e. Methyl Isocyanate, among other things) and that it was little more than an eye-irritant, per their words. (it wasn't)

[ToSeek]

Somewhere in WV and in my memory: a four-lane bridge was built for a 6-lane interstate highway. The problem was not noticed until it was time to paint the lines.


Right here in Greenbelt they built a four-lane bridge then realized that the structural supports potentially weren't strong enough to support the traffic that could fit in four lanes. So the road goes down to two lanes just to cross the bridge, then expands again. (They may have fixed this by now, but this was definitely true for a while. Fortunately it wasn't a major road.)

[George]

I wonder if it was a design or material issue? The Austin area had a large all-steel suspension bridge project suspended when it was realized the Korean steel did not meet specifications.

[peteshimmon]

How about the hair trigger war plan by the German Army in 1914?

[eugenek]

Napoleon's invasion of Russia
Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union (Russia)
The invasion of Iraq
Dave Mitsky

I don't think the invasion of the Soviet Union was a blunder. I believe the Soviets were eventually going to invade Germany so Hitler had to get his best shot in. Initially, the invasion was fairly successful. However, things went bad for the Germans and they didn't handle it well. I would consider some of the decisions made by Hitler during the invasion to be blunders though. Although, I suppose, in hindsight, you could call invading Poland a blunder too.

As for the invasion of Iraq, I think it is much too early to determine if this is a blunder or not. I think in 10-20 years it will be much easier to state it was or was not a blunder.

[Moose]

As for the invasion of Iraq, I think it is much too early to determine if this is a blunder or not. I think in 10-20 years it will be much easier to state it was or was not a blunder.

*Twitch*

Please don't go there, guys. I'm now resisting a nearly overwhelming compulsion to respond, and any honest response I could make to that would put me firmly beyond the partisan politics line (and probably the snarkiness line too.)

[Captain Kidd]

The Maginot Line

[Launch window]

And please don't forgt Genesis' deceleration detctors mounted the wrong way :(

highly embarrassing crash

[Gillianren]

I don't think the invasion of the Soviet Union was a blunder. I believe the Soviets were eventually going to invade Germany so Hitler had to get his best shot in. Initially, the invasion was fairly successful. However, things went bad for the Germans and they didn't handle it well. I would consider some of the decisions made by Hitler during the invasion to be blunders though. Although, I suppose, in hindsight, you could call invading Poland a blunder too.

Anyone invading the Soviet Union/Russia can safely assume that history will call it winter. The Russians call it "General Winter."

[Doodler]

Anyone invading the Soviet Union/Russia can safely assume that history will call it winter. The Russians call it "General Winter."

If there were ever a nation dreading the onset of Global Warming....

[eugenek]

*Twitch*

Please don't go there, guys. I'm now resisting a nearly overwhelming compulsion to respond, and any honest response I could make to that would put me firmly beyond the partisan politics line (and probably the snarkiness line too.)

I don't intend on going political. I don't think it needs to go political. I haven't stated my opinion on the Iraq war and will not do so on this forum.

Whether for or against an action I believe that with many things it takes time to accurately determine whether something is a blunder. Even with strong feelings for or against something I don't feel I have an accurate perspective on determining the blundernity (tm) of an action that may have long term impact.

When did Seward's Folly cease to be a folly? From the point of view of the USA was that a terrific waste of money? Some people at the time thought so. Now?

How about the Louisiana Purchase? At the time some thought this was an unconstitional action. That the purchase itself was an act of declaring war on Spain. Now, 200 years later, was this a poor decision on the part of the USA?

Was the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor a blunder? It brought the USA into WWII with the Japanese and Germans. For the first several months after Pearl Harbor it would be hard to call going to war with the USA a blunder on the part of the Japanese. Suppose the Japanese managed some sort of victory in WWII. Would it still be called a blunder?

[eugenek]

Anyone invading the Soviet Union/Russia can safely assume that history will call it winter. The Russians call it "General Winter."

Yes, but only if the Germans had failed. Had they succeeded then it would have been a brilliant move because someone else would probably be writing the history book.

Should the Germans had put Britain effectively out of the war before invading the USSR? Perhaps, but how long does Germany have before Stalin decided it was time to move westward? At the start of the operation the USA had not yet entered the war and I don't think Britian or any other allied power was in any condition to put very many troops on the continent.

Could the Germans have executed the invasion better? Most probably and then perhaps General Winter isn't such a problem. I don't think the invasion was the blunder. How it was executed was.

[Captain Kidd]

eugenek brings up a good point that especially when military actions are concerned, the only thing that seperates a stunning blunder from brillant success is whether or not that side won. The same also applies to many business approaches too.

Which reminds me of another item to throw into the list: Enron, although it's not really a blunder as such.

[Doodler]

eugenek brings up a good point that especially when military actions are concerned, the only thing that seperates a stunning blunder from brillant success is whether or not that side won. The same also applies to many business approaches too.

Which reminds me of another item to throw into the list: Enron, although it's not really a blunder as such.


Military victories are like land buys, the blunder lies in who came out worse.

In other news:

The Exxon Valdez.

[Gillianren]

Yes, but only if the Germans had failed. Had they succeeded then it would have been a brilliant move because someone else would probably be writing the history book.

But that's the point--no one has successfully invaded Russia. The winter has always won.

[PhantomWolf]

I don't think the invasion of the Soviet Union was a blunder. I believe the Soviets were eventually going to invade Germany so Hitler had to get his best shot in.

Why would the Soviets have invaded Germany? They had a peace treaty with them. Hitler played the Soviets, getting them into Poland so he could get Poland out of the way from between the Soviets and Him, assuming that Britain wouldn't carry out it's threats, but would join with him on his next move, going after the Communists in the Soviet Union.

However, his blunder wasn't going after the Soviets, it was turning south for the Oil Fields instead of taking and holding up in Moscow over the Winter, then going south in the Summer. By going south first they got trapped in the snows, and then with the Siberians released with Japan attacking the US instead of Sibera, and able to attack the German army frozen and in the open, the Germans just got run over. Had they been holed up and defending Moscow, it would have pushed the Siberians into a city war that they would likely not have won, leaving Russia defenceless and under Nazi control.

[Sammy]

Sarongsong wrote


Coke puts out a kosher (no corn content) version, made with sugar and distinguished by yellow caps, at certain time(s?) of the year.



During the Passover holiday period (one week each Spring, usually very close in time to Easter), observant Jews do not eat eat cereal products such as wheat or corn. Coke annually produces product with sugar for those observing the holiday; bottles have a "Kosher for Passover" legend on them. I have not seen the yellow caps.

The relatively small run of non hi-fructose syrup soda is often grabbed up by those seeking the "feel" of the traditional soda rather than those concerned about observing the holiday.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

During the Passover holiday period (one week each Spring, usually very close in time to Easter), observant Jews do not eat eat cereal products such as wheat or corn. Coke annually produces product with sugar for those observing the holiday; bottles have a "Kosher for Passover" legend on them. I have not seen the yellow caps.

The relatively small run of non hi-fructose syrup soda is often grabbed up by those seeking the "feel" of the traditional soda rather than those concerned about observing the holiday.
I Have NEVER Been Able to Find This Stuff, at Least Not at Economical Prices, Yeah I Know, Irony ...

Anyway, During The Holidays I Usually Maake a Simple Switch for The Duration ...

I Change Over to Diet Soda, All The Taste None of The Guilt!

:shifty:

[Nicolas]

"Diet Soda has all of the taste"

This should be a bannable offence ;)

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

"Diet Soda has all of the taste"

This should be a bannable offence ;)
Yeah I Know ...

Still I Mostly Drink Fruit-Flavoured Sodas, So The Difference is Minimal ...

Plus, it Maakes it All The MOORE Enjoyable, When I Get to Swith Baack at The End of The Holiday!

:dance:

[sarongsong]

Another small fortune lost:September 11, 2006
...The Air Force purchased the British-made, propeller-driven planes [110 T-3A Firefly] for $32 million, and spent $10 million trying to make them airworthy after they were grounded. It decided to junk them rather than try to renovate them to Federal Aviation Administration standards so they could be sold... Air Force Times (http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-2095978.php)

[eugenek]

But that's the point--no one has successfully invaded Russia. The winter has always won.

I think the real point is that no one has successfully invaded Russia for a very long time. The Mongols were the last, I think.

I believe the Russian Winter is somewhat of a myth. How many invasions of Russia have there been where winter was the deciding factor? Except for Germany's, I can think of only two others. Sweden in the 18th century and France in the 19th century.

In both cases the Russians reacted the same, retreat and burn everything on the way out. The Russians had learned that if you've got the land to give up then give it up but make it worthless to the invader.

Also, because something has always happened in the past doesn't mean it will always happen in the future. While I'm reasonably confident that the sun will rise tomorrow I'm not as confident that I will never bowl a 200 game.

Hitler believed his military could defeat the Russians before winter could be a problem. At that time, the Germans had rolled over every nation they invaded. The Russian invasion of Finland showed Hitler that the Russian troops were not well trained or led. Hitler also had intelligence which under-calculated the number of Russian troops.

Fighting a war in unfriendly territory anywhere in winter isn't a good thing but I think the German defeat was mainly due to over-confidence, poor logistics, strategy and ruthlessness to the conquered. There was also a problem with resisting Russians who had a choice of either fighting the Germans or being killed by fellow Russians. The winter served as aggravation.

Also, it wasn't only winter for the Germans. The Russians also had to fight and suffer in the cold. However, they had some advantage by being nearer their supplies and, in some cases, shelter.

Okay, I'll stop my rambling.

[Doodler]

The Mongols had an advantage. They were Siberian themselves, so winter didn't bother them at all.

[Ronald Brak]

When the war is over and the generals write their memoirs, none of them ever write, "Boy, was I incompetant."

[eugenek]

I don't think the invasion of the Soviet Union was a blunder. I believe the Soviets were eventually going to invade Germany so Hitler had to get his best shot in.

Why would the Soviets have invaded Germany? They had a peace treaty with them. Hitler played the Soviets, getting them into Poland so he could get Poland out of the way from between the Soviets and Him, assuming that Britain wouldn't carry out it's threats, but would join with him on his next move, going after the Communists in the Soviet Union.

Both played each other. I don't think either side was under any illusions that the pact would last the full 10 years. Neither side was very good at abiding by treaties or pacts. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact broke at least three or four treaties the USSR had with Poland. I don't think either side had any dreams that the two sides would not eventually be at war with one another. The unknown was when and who. At the signing of the pact, the USSR was not prepared for war with Germany.

The pact gave Stalin the Baltic states as well as eastern Poland. It also gave Stalin some time in which to prepare for Hitler's eventual move eastward. Stalin was trying to stall Hitler's invasion of the USSR. Stalin was hoping the German invasion could be postponed until the summer 1942, or later, when Stalin would be more prepared.

Hitler got Western Poland and confidence that he could concentrate on western Europe without Russian interference.

Stalin probably would have left Germany alone as long as Germany continued to be at war with western Europe. Stalin was confident that Germany would not get itself involved in a two front war. However, once Germany finished off western Europe where else was it going to go? I don't think Hitler was the type to sit back and say "This is just right. Let's stop here." Hitler wasn't fond of communism either.

Stalin was also a land grabber. In addition to the Baltic states he also invaded Finland and annexed chunks of Romania. Stalin's second invasion of Finland was after the German invasion of Russia and was for "protective" reasons. Stalin didn't have a problem invading nations to protect him from Germany. At some point in or after 1942 Stalin would eventually protect himself from the German threat by removing the German threat.

However, his blunder wasn't going after the Soviets, it was turning south for the Oil Fields instead of taking and holding up in Moscow over the Winter, then going south in the Summer. By going south first they got trapped in the snows, and then with the Siberians released with Japan attacking the US instead of Sibera, and able to attack the German army frozen and in the open, the Germans just got run over. Had they been holed up and defending Moscow, it would have pushed the Siberians into a city war that they would likely not have won, leaving Russia defenceless and under Nazi control.

I agree. I also believe that had the Germans not been so ruthless with the people of the conquered territory then there may have been more incentive for some Russians to surrender or even assist the Germans. Prior to this, many people in the western sphere of Soviet influence weren't all that happy with the USSR. The people were placed in a situation where they could fight the Germans, because surrendering was deadly, or retreating from the Germans, where they would be executed by Stalin.

However, not being ruthless to the conquered and inferior wasn't exactly the Nazi theme.

[sarongsong]

I can already see the employees shirts "we put the coke in cola"...New contender---[???] :'Cocaine' drink..is being billed as a "legal alternative" to the class A drug, using a massive hit of caffeine instead of cocaine... Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=406304&in_page_id=1770)

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I LOVE it ...

I Wiish, I Could Get Soome ...

The Beverage that Is, Not The Drug!

:shifty:

[sarongsong]

Oops!October 16, 2006
Pablo Picasso's "dream" painting has turned into a $139 million nightmare for Steve Wynn...[who] accidentally poked a hole in Picasso's 74-year-old painting, "Le Reve (http://www.artnet.com/Magazine/features/decker/Images/decker11-4-10.jpg)"...the size of a silver dollar... Las Vrgas Review-Journal (http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2006/Oct-17-Tue-2006/news/10274785.html)

[TriangleMan]

:lol: just a warning though, Steve Wynn's statement after damaging the painting contains an expletive (though I milder one than I would have used if I poked a hole in a painting I was about to sell for $139m) :lol:

[Damien Evans]

Oh, I dunno. A car whose gas tank explodes when you hit it in the rear, seems strangely appropriate that it's named after a bean. :)

just so you know, out of the over 2 million pintos sold only 27 ever exploded in that manner

[Ronald Brak]

just so you know, out of the over 2 million pintos sold only 27 ever exploded in that manner

I think it was 27 people killed, not cars exploded. No idea how many Pintos exploded. Also no idea how often other American cars explode. According to the movies it happens all the time.

[Nicolas]

And the softer the hit, the larger the explosion :)

[Thanatos]

Being an engineer is sometimes a nightmare. It's a horrible shame when people die in poorly designed cars. The engineers, however, are blameless. Any good engineer knows one must economically balance safety concerns with profit. When you have kids and bills to pay, these choices are easily justified. After all, marketing made the final decision to sell these death traps.

I say hell no. I will never certify a design I believe is unsafe. My last performance review: 'not a team player'. I got laid off. I can live with that.

[Nicolas]

Any good engineer knows one must economically balance safety concerns with profit.

The problem with the Pinto was that safety and profit were balanced only economically. You also must balance them morally. I've written a paper on the subject, only in the hope to win 500 euro with it. So far for the moral stuff ;D.

[Ronald Brak]

It is possible to agree on a level of safety that is appropriate for a modern car, but it would probably be harder to agree on what's moral with regards to car safety. One person might argue that it would be moral to install no safety features in a car and instead spend the money on preventing malaria because that use of the money might save more lives.

Personally I'm in favour of safety standards based on a points system that allows engineering flexibility in meeting the standards. I also think that as time goes on safety standards should be gradually raised as people become wealthier and people become less willing to risk their lives to save a buck.

[Tog_]

The problem with the Pinto was that safety and profit were balanced only economically. You also must balance them morally. I've written a paper on the subject, only in the hope to win 500 euro with it. So far for the moral stuff ;D.

That was sprt of the premise behind the movie Class Action (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0101590/). In the film a car company had placed a model for sail that had a very good chance to explode if reaer ended while the left turn signal was on. Something about the routing of the wires. Anyway, it was a known flaw, but the thinking put forth in the film was that the money shelled out in lawsuits would still be less than the cost of a complete recall, so the bottom line came down to money>safety.

[Tog_]

It is possible to agree on a level of safety that is appropriate for a modern car, but it would probably be harder to agree on what's moral with regards to car safety. One person might argue that it would be moral to install no safety features in a car and instead spend the money on preventing malaria instead because that use of the money might save more lives.

Personally I'm in favour of safety standards based on a points system that allows engineering flexibility in meeting the standards. I also think that as time goes on safety standards should be gradually raised as people become wealthier and people become less willing to risk their lives to save a buck.

But as people become wealthier, the cost wil go up to compensate it. When they first came out, you could get a new Corvette for under $4,000.
Also, not everyone will be making more money. There will always be a class that can't can't afford the SUV with the NASA approved escape bubble that comes standard on the base model. They will be the ones driving the 20 year old Honda with duct tape holding on the fender.

Now I agree that safety vs cost will always be a compromise, and that in some cases, some measure of safety can be given up in the name of value, so a point system there will work.

[Ronald Brak]

But as people become wealthier, the cost wil go up to compensate it. When they first came out, you could get a new Corvette for under $4,000.

Didn't that car come out in 1953? And rather than compare it to a modern corvette wouldn't we have to compare it to a car without air conditioning, pollution controls, stereo speakers and so on? Currently I can buy a car that is better and safer than the 1953 corvette for less than 5 months average income in my country. I don't think you could buy a Corvette with 5 months of average income in 1953. So I think the cost of cars with improved safety has come down.

But obviously we want to avoid ridiculous safety standards that result in only the rich being able to drive.

[Tog_]

Didn't that car come out in 1953? And rather than compare it to a modern corvette wouldn't we have to compare it to a car without air conditioning, pollution controls, stereo speakers and so on? Currently I can buy a car that is better and safer than the 1953 corvette for less than 5 months average income in my country. I don't think you could buy a Corvette with 5 months of average income in 1953. So I think the cost of cars with improved safety has come down.

But obviously we want to avoid ridiculous safety standards that result in only the rich being able to drive.

It did come out in 53 as a concept car, he first real year for them was 54. There are handful of 53's around though. The comaprison to the modern Vette makes sense, but when COrvettes and the other "muscle cars" from the 60's came out, they were designed, and priced, for the average family. It wasn't until the late 60s into the 70s that the price started to go up with performance. So a comparison to a 55 Vette and a 55 Ford Station wagon would be a lot closer cost wise then than it is now.

According to the census bureau, median income per houshold in 1960 was $5,600, so nope, it was still nearly a year's salary for the average person. In 2000, the average income was 28,116, which would mean that a comparable car pricewise would be 20,000 today. The designs are safer overall, and safety in general has certainly improved overall, but alot of the safety features are still listed as options. Anti-lock brakes are optional on many new cars. If you had to drop 400 dollars to meet your budget, and had to choose between antilock brakes and side panel airbags, which way would you go? For a lot of people I know, that is a decision they would need to make. Sadly, many go for the 6 CD changer instead. Safety features need to not be optional extras that can be left out for cooler rims and an extra set of speakers.

As far as cost goes, all the safety measures available in that $20,000 compact aren't likely to help when that $50,000 hummer blows through the intersection. When it comes to safety, size matters. Big cars cost more in general. I just bought a new car. It's no where near what I wanted, but it was the most I think I can afford. I can easily dent the fender closing the fuel fill door. It's a 2005 and managed to meet all the safety requirements at that time though.

[Ronald Brak]

I wonder if safety standards are higher in Australia than the U.S.? Although this isn't strickly car safety, here we have compulsory seat-belts laws and a 0.05 alcohol limit. I understand that in some parts of the U.S. you don't have to wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle and legal blood alcohol limits can be quite high.

[Tog_]

I wonder if safety standards are higher in Australia than the U.S.? Although this isn't strickly car safety, here we have compulsory seat-belts laws and a 0.05 alcohol limit. I understand that in some parts of the U.S. you don't have to wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle and legal blood alcohol limits can be quite high.

In Utah, seatbelts are mandatory, but helmets are not. BAC limit is 0.08 for most states, with some allowing 0.1. It varies from state to state. For a while you could only be cited for not wearing a seatbelt if they already had you for doing something else. If you drove by in a convertable and they could see there was no seatbelt in use, they still couldn't pull you over. That has changed now.

Also, if I'm driving alone in the car and there is an alcohol bottle open in the back, that I have never even touched, I can get a ticket for n open container. If people other than the driver are drinking in the car, the driver can get a DUI with a BAC of 0.

[Ronald Brak]

Interesting. I don't think they would approve of an open alcohol container here, but I don't know if you can get in trouble for it. I don't think you can get in trouble if other people are drinking. Or if you can get in trouble the police won't charge you for it. I think as long as a sober person is driving they are generally happy. Of course it's traditional for the people who are drinking to try to ineptly try to hide their bottles and make really bad attempts at appearing to be sober and then after the police have let you go say things like, "Maaaate, he could'n tell I woz drinkin, could 'ee?"

[Tog_]

Heh, I'm the only one in my circle of friends (around the house anyway) that doesn't drink. I have been involved in a lot of conversations like that.
"I wasn't that drunk was I?"
"Do you remember falling face first into the empty hot tub?"
"Is that why my chin hurts?"

I've also found that knowing how to talk to the policeman can go a really long way in not ending up face down in the street. I think if I could the officer away from the carload of drunks, I could come away with just a warning about them drinking in the back seat. The hard part would be keeping them all quiet.

Weaving back across the line to the topic...

About 15 years ago, some guy came up with this stuff called Syn-crete. It was a synthetic concrete that was supposed to able to go over the surface of the freeway and make it last a lot longer. Rather than teting it on a small section, of the belt route (which is less heavily travelled), they put it ona huge section of the main freeway. It seemed to be a little slick when it was wet, but that only lasted about 2 weeks, after that it crumbled to pebbles. It made it to the point that windshiled places would fix rock chips for free then bill the state. Shortly after, it came out that the guy that came up with this stuff was related or a very good friend of the guy that approved it's use.

[Thanatos]

If the risk is reasonably foreseeable to the 'average' buyer, so be it [hey, this car only weighs 500 lbs !]. When the risk is not reasonably foreseable, you may as well stand on the corner of strict liability and lawsuit handing out free money.

[Launch window]

Napoleon's invasion of Russia
The Louisiana Purchase (the sale by France)
"Seward’s Folly" (the sale of Alaska by Russia)
Hitler's invasion of the Soviet Union (Russia)
The Cold War (on both sides)
The STS
THe SCSC
The ISS
The invasion of Iraq

Dave Mitsky

The thing about Louisiana is the French Empire was already in decline, could they afford to have kept their vast Empire scattered across the globe, as for the STS-Shuttle yeah its best days are gone, but the new Ares-5 and CLV is going to be based on STS

[danscope]

Hi, How about the "Big Dig" .....what is it more than 3 times over budget,
and with some of the most severe design flaws.....like heavy slabs of concrete hanging over your car,....when 1/4 inch galvanized steel would have done nicely,
preped locally in the Fore River Shipyard which could use the work, and it would have weighed 10 percent of the ridiculous concrete they employed....just to keep the business "In the Family".
The Maginot Line ( Google this one if you don't know about it...Billions)
The British "Brabazon" Airliner...buit as a prototype to fly the atlantic....
another failed example of "Contra-rotating propellers". A dinosaur.
The Atomic Plane.....an idea to build an aircraft powered by atomic energy.
Graphite cooled reactors...
Seabrook N R
Monsanto's BGH ......an enfuriated American public refused to have any truck with milk from cows so treated....and damaged with said drug.
The great Spinach Disaster- we spend 30 years trying to get people to eat healthy and get some green fresh vegetables into their diet and in one week, that all goes down the drain because of irresponsible farming methods.
Monsanto's entire Canadian genetically engineered rapeseed or canola crop had to be recalled earlier this year because of unexplained "technical difficulties." By the way.....there are a lot of good reasons why you don't even want to have ANYTHING TO DO with CANOLA OIL. And that's a No-Sheet item .
WorldCom- .....so who's really gonna miss $ 9 Billion anyway ?
Enron ......." It's simply a matter of 'Creative Accounting.' ...."
Ford Motor Corporation ......had sort of turned things around, and decided to really scrooo a lot of people with lousy transmissions in the Taurus, an other wise nice car. Now they all buy Subarus and Ford is closing 14 plnts and laying off thousands. Nice job.
The Bunker Hunt Brothers -.....trying to corner the market on silver.....ala Randolf and Mortimer .....heh- heh!!
Subs Are Out Of Depth
By Fia Gumming The Sun-Herald, February 20th, 2000

STAINLESS steel welded pipes used throughout the new Collins class submarines could corrode and collapse in a deep dive.

As a result, four of the billion-dollar submarines have been put under restricted operations.

The Defence Department has admitted that all of the suspect piping on the first of the submarines, HMAS Collins, has been secretly replaced.

But because of the scale of the job, the Navy's other two submarines will not be fixed for some time. (Australian trouble)
The "Guitaro ", and brand new attack submarine, not even fully commissioned.....with shore power lines going in through the aft hatch
( only inches above the waterline at dockside)...had yard personel checking trim tanks, filling after taks and emptying forward tanks...changed the apparent trim....a little bit there...? "Yep they might have screwed up a little bit....and Sank a very expensive sub right at the dock.....not good.
Fen-Phen
The Great "Back Bay pump the sea down scndal " where they lowered the water table to build high rise buildings, The salt water table that "used" to protect the piers that so many building rested and depepnded on are now 'rotting' .... nice little picture there
And then there is the Lycoming Crankshaft Debacle......where somebody
decided to put some Vanadium in the crankshaft metalurgy recipie, and
caused and continues to cause a little bit of a problem. FAA tells all these people that they have to tear down their very expensive engines....tie up these aircraft for quite a while.....and of course ....who pays ?
And the parade goes on.
Just a few observations.
Best regards, Dan

[Trebuchet]

Somebody needs to explain the "big dig" fiasco, at length, to the Seattle city council, which is demanding a similar project to replace the existing viaduct on the city's waterfront. Not that it doesn't need replacing, mind you.

[Donnie B.]

Yes, the Big Dig went way over its original estimated cost (more like 5x, I believe). Yes, it's had some serious technical problems, leading to one fatality and still more cost and inconvenience.

But it has vastly improved the traffic situation in Boston.

I think, in due time, it will be seen as a very positive thing for the city and the region.

[peteshimmon]

Presumably you mean graphite moderated reactors
with CO2 cooling. Not sure of the overall cost
yet but for their lifetime the Magnox series
operated reliably and put out much secure
electrical power. And given the government was
going to get its Plutonium, British production
gave us electricity and did not just warm up a
few rivers.

[danscope]

Somebody needs to explain the "big dig" fiasco, at length, to the Seattle city council, which is demanding a similar project to replace the existing viaduct on the city's waterfront. Not that it doesn't need replacing, mind you.

Hi, Let's hope they are paying attention. It realy doesn't pay to build stuff under water. I think New Orleans is comming around to that conclusion..... and maybe even Boston will start to see the error of their ways.
Personaly, I think they should have employed a neoprene membrane and glued it into position and THEN installed the Blocks. They have hell to pay Now, and the ocean is an inexhaustable supply of water.
Drip drip......splash splash.......gush........ well, time can only tell.
And Seatle is in an earthquake zone. If you put all your eggs in one basket....
like Boston's cenral artery and it blows, you got trouble.
may they learn something.
Best regards, Dan

[danscope]

Presumably you mean graphite moderated reactors
with CO2 cooling. Not sure of the overall cost
yet but for their lifetime the Magnox series
operated reliably and put out much secure
electrical power. And given the government was
going to get its Plutonium, British production
gave us electricity and did not just warm up a
few rivers.

Hi Pete, I was thinking of Chernobyl, a graphite reactor.
Not sure about Magnox.
Chernobyl was definitely a "Blunder". Not good.
Best regards, Sir. Dan

[Trebuchet]

....
And Seatle is in an earthquake zone. If you put all your eggs in one basket....
like Boston's cenral artery and it blows, you got trouble.
may they learn something.
Best regards, Dan

Actually the earthquake threat is one of the biggest arguments for a tunnel. The existing viaduct looks a great deal like the one that collapsed in Oakland.

[danscope]

Actually the earthquake threat is one of the biggest arguments for a tunnel. The existing viaduct looks a great deal like the one that collapsed in Oakland.

Hi, Properly designed and built, I'm sure they will and can do the job.
I just have problems with the "Lowest Bidder" philosophy.
Would that they would get the best design at a reasonable price.
"Built to last " . It used to be a standard in America....and a motto.

Best regards, Dan

[Charlie in Dayton]

Tim Paterson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Paterson), who was basically (eh) knocking off Gary Kildall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kildall) (mentioned earlier). Interestingly, according to that, Kildall wrote a memoir about the affair that has never been published.

http://64.235.231.60/CarsAndMeAndStuff/PatersonAutographSmallA.jpg

Ah yes, Mr. Paterson...he's my hero...

[Donnie B.]

Okay, I may have to revise my assessment of the Big Dig's ultimate worth. This article is downright unsettlin'...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061101/ap_on_re_us/big_dig_report

The NTSB says there's little redundancy or safety margin in the design of the ceiling panels of the I-90 connector tunnel (the one that has already killed one person in a collapse).

Let's hope there are no other examples of this kind of screwup elsewhere in the project.

[NEOWatcher]

[Huge picture]

Ah yes, Mr. Paterson...he's my hero...
136k...Please think of those poor dialup folks :naughty: . (if there are any left)

[Gillianren]

Actually the earthquake threat is one of the biggest arguments for a tunnel. The existing viaduct looks a great deal like the one that collapsed in Oakland.

Which is why I won't go near the thing if I can at all avoid it. (Which I've been able to do since I stopped going from Tacoma to Port Angeles and back by bus; no more ferry.) We had a family vacation to San Francisco once, and our hotel in Oakland (where it's way cheaper) required walking straight under that section of freeway to the BART station a few blocks away. This would've been about three years before the collapse.

[Trebuchet]

I both like and dislike driving on the viaduct. Dislike because I always think about Oakland and the possibility of earthquake obviously. Like because the view is quite pleasant -- water, ships, etc. I travel frequently between Everett and Tacoma and take the viaduct once in a while just for the heck of it.

[danscope]

Okay, I may have to revise my assessment of the Big Dig's ultimate worth. This article is downright unsettlin'...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061101/ap_on_re_us/big_dig_report

The NTSB says there's little redundancy or safety margin in the design of the ceiling panels of the I-90 connector tunnel (the one that has already killed one person in a collapse).

Let's hope there are no other examples of this kind of screwup elsewhere in the project.

Hi, Just replace them with 1/4 in galvanized steel. Simple. Do it.
The guy that designed the concrete slabs, probably designed the triangular Wheel!
He figured that if it had one less bump, it would give a smoother ride!!! :) Dan

[sarongsong]

Only in America?October 27, 2006
A federal jury awarded $24.2 million to two men who were severely burned by electrical wires when they trespassed onto railroad property and climbed atop a rail car...they argued that the companies should have placed warning signs alerting people to the wires, which power locomotives...The companies can appeal... TimesLeader (http://www.timesleader.com/mld/timesleader/15864415.htm)

[PhantomWolf]

And they say you can't legislate for stupidity...... :rolleyes:

[sarongsong]

Maybe that's why brand-name security system decals and signs are so prolific around businesses and homes that contract with them---wouldn't want to get sued because the burglar's arrest couldn't be foreseen; a hazard to his freedom.
Back to the train:...Klein was shocked by the catenary wire, which hung 6 feet above the car, even though he did not touch it...How does that work?

[davidlpf]

well and burglars are less likely to go after home with a security then a home without one because it a lot easier to get in and out quickly i hear some people just put the stickers up so burglars think it is protected by a fancy security system.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Back to the train:How does that work?
He Probably Got ZAPPED By The Electro-Magnetic Field ...

Depending on Juust How Muuch Power, That Wire Carried ...

Discharge Can Still Occur, At a Distance of Several Metres!

:eek:

[sarongsong]

...Discharge Can Still Occur, At a Distance of Several Metres!:eek:Ah, thanks; it was a 12,500-volt line, and, at 17 years old he was probably close to 6' tall...

[sarongsong]

... i hear some people just put the stickers up so burglars think it is protected by a fancy security system.Just wondering whether Van Rijn uses invisible warning signs/stickers... http://bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gifI say there is an invisible elf in my backyard...

[NEOWatcher]

...i hear some people just put the stickers up so burglars think it is protected by a fancy security system.
I had an uncle who owned an installation company. (a one man business). My parents got stickers from him.
And, My security company got bought out, and I got all new identification. So now my friend has one of those security signs in his yard. (as long as the burglar doesn't know the company exists.:shhh: )

[Damien Evans]

I think it was 27 people killed, not cars exploded. No idea how many Pintos exploded. Also no idea how often other American cars explode. According to the movies it happens all the time.

well according to the figures i have (admittedly, from ford) only 27 CARS exploded, either way, that's 27 too many

[Damien Evans]

I wonder if safety standards are higher in Australia than the U.S.? Although this isn't strickly car safety, here we have compulsory seat-belts laws and a 0.05 alcohol limit. I understand that in some parts of the U.S. you don't have to wear a seatbelt in a car or a helmet on a motorcycle and legal blood alcohol limits can be quite high.

That, and our design laws are stricter, for example, the ford falcon has a four star ANCAP rating, which is one of the best for that size car in the world, only certain european cars such as mercedes, bmw and volvo are higher, but ford owns volvo anyway so they don't give a stuff

Also i believe american speed limits are higher in general than ours, which may be a factor

Ps. The Commodore, the falcons direct competitor has a 3.5 star safety rating, which, while not quite the match of the falcons is none too shabby either

[Damien Evans]

Interesting. I don't think they would approve of an open alcohol container here, but I don't know if you can get in trouble for it. I don't think you can get in trouble if other people are drinking. Or if you can get in trouble the police won't charge you for it. I think as long as a sober person is driving they are generally happy. Of course it's traditional for the people who are drinking to try to ineptly try to hide their bottles and make really bad attempts at appearing to be sober and then after the police have let you go say things like, "Maaaate, he could'n tell I woz drinkin, could 'ee?"

you can get in trouble for having an open container, and indeed you do, cops don't turn a blind eye to it (well, not if it's straight vodka or anything like that anyway, you might be ok with beer though)

[Launch window]

2012 Olympics ?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/sport/article-23373014-details/Revealed:%20Political%20war%20over%20the%202012%20 Olympics%20stadium/article.do

Akashi Kaikyo Bridge
http://tollroadsnews.info/artman/publish/article_1012.shtml

Superconducting Super Collider in Texas
http://www.the-scientist.com/article/display/9493/

A380 ?
http://www.itp.net/business/features/details.php?id=5416&category=

[Nicolas]

Calling things that are yet to come a blunder might be a bit ahead of the train.

The 2012 olympics might become the finest and most profitable ever. The A380 might become more popular than the 747 in the long term.

As for the bridge, it is not a blunder in itself. Apparently they simply ask a non-optimal toll rate.

The central span was originally only 1990 metres but was stretched by a further metre in the Kobe earthquake on January 17, 1995
Nice design if it can handle that :).

The SSC being cancelled halfway through its development is the only clear blunder I see in your list.

[NEOWatcher]

...The SSC being cancelled halfway through its development is the only clear blunder I see in your list.
My thoughts too. Just because some groups (political, business, etc) are infighting, I don't consider it a blunder. I consider blunder more of an issue of design or foresight, or something that changes the initial estimate drastically. It's still going to cost the same, it's only who benifits that is at issue.

[Nicolas]

btw

The central span was originally only 1990 metres but was stretched
by a further metre in the Kobe earthquake on January 17, 1995

Mind the use of the word "only" to describe the largest single span in the world :).

[Nicolas]

Right now, as Airbus fights to keep the A380 project alive

Duh, they have 6 A380's flying perfectly. Would be a bit stupid to cancel the project now.

[NEOWatcher]

Duh, they have 6 A380's flying perfectly. Would be a bit stupid to cancel the project now.
Sounds like that would be a blunder. Even though you can't make a profit and it would seem like you lose money on each plane, you should at least recover some of the design costs. (Although, the balance sheet, depreciation, tax considerations, etc, probably change the picture).
But, once you have built as many planes as you can sell, then you stop.

The only blunder might have been in the optimistic estimate of cost and delivery time.

[Nicolas]

I fully agree with that.

And even if they turn out to lose money on it in the long run, at least our technology will have advanced due to it. And another impressive page added to flight history.

[Trebuchet]

Spoken like a true businessman. NOT! The A380 could well have a long and profitable career, but it depends on Airbus having paitience. That's not a property American investors have had much of in recent years. I doubt if Europeans are much different. It'll take years before it repays its investment, even if they don't lose money on each one for the first few years as they are likely to do. It's a magnificent technical accomplishment, but only time will tell if it's a business success. Unfortunately it may not get the time it needs.

[Nicolas]

Well, I think Airbus will not be the one not having patience. It appears to me that any A380 sold and built is at least decreasing the loss, and in the long term could very well be making part of the profit. The amount they need to sell to break even is not totally unrealistic after all.

However, investors (airlines) indeed need to have patience indeed. Some of them already threatened with cancelling orders when the first delay of a few months was announced. That makes me wonder just how well-considered their decision to buy was made in the first place. I mean, if you decide on a purchase that costs such a lot of money and you will be using for decades, why do you feel like cancelling it because you have to wait (at that time) for a few months?

[Eoanthropus Dawsoni]

Garrison Diversion: Over $620 million spent to build canals to move Missouri River water from drought stricken western North Dakota to the flood prone Red River Valley. The project was never completed however the government still spends $3.5 million per year in upkeep for the 110 miles of waterless canals.

[sarongsong]

An expensive puzzlement, perhaps:November 11, 2006
A rare, valuable stamp that could be worth as much as $200,000 (€155,473) may be on an absentee-ballot envelope sealed in a box with other ballots from Tuesday's election...an upside-down World War I-era airplane — the hallmark of an Inverted Jenny (http://www.mysticstamp.com/contentImages/C3A-REASONS.jpg)...would be very valuable if it was real... NC Times (http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2006/11/11/america/NA_GEN_US_Rare_Stamp.php)...and after all that...October 19, 2006
...typically...mail without any stamps at all is returned to the sender...the postal service makes an exception for absentee ballots... The Californian (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2006/10/20/news/californian/21_25_0010_19_06.txt)

[sarongsong]

October 16, 2006
"Pablo Picasso's "dream" painting has turned into a $139 million nightmare for Steve Wynn..." --- Las Vegas Review-JournalLawyer alert http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gifJanuary 11, 2007
Vegas mogul sues Lloyd's over $54 million damaged Picasso claim...demanded that Llloyd's pay him the difference in the appreciated value of the painting [$139m} and its post-damage worth [$85m]... The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0111072wynn1.html)

[pghnative]

January 11, 2007
Vegas mogul sues Lloyd's over $54 million damaged Picasso claim...demanded that Llloyd's pay him the difference in the appreciated value of the painting [$139m} and its post-damage worth [$85m]... The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2007/0111072wynn1.html)
Looks like a valid claim to me, although I suppose it depends on the fine print of the insurance policy. I know that most insurance policies (home, car, health) still pay off for damages even when the cause is stupidity.

[tdvance]

Looks like a valid claim to me, although I suppose it depends on the fine print of the insurance policy. I know that most insurance policies (home, car, health) still pay off for damages even when the cause is stupidity.


There is one point, and I'm not sure how the courts handle it. The "sworn statement" of proof of damage states that the damage was not caused by an act of the insured....which is not quite true. I'd wonder if the original contract had a stipulation that the insured does not cause the damage himself.

Todd

[pghnative]

There is one point, and I'm not sure how the courts handle it. The "sworn statement" of proof of damage states that the damage was not caused by an act of the insured....which is not quite true. I'd wonder if the original contract had a stipulation that the insured does not cause the damage himself.

ToddYeah, that's where the fine print comes in. Does the policy exclude all acts by the insured, or only deliberate acts by the insured. Most policies only exclude deliberate acts, but high value insurance policies may well be different.

[hhEb09'1]

Yeah, that's where the fine print comes in. Does the policy exclude all acts by the insured, or only deliberate acts by the insured. Most policies only exclude deliberate acts, but high value insurance policies may well be different.They may (should?) have a clause that insists due care be taken.

For instance, would the theft of a $150 million dollar painting be covered, if you were to deliberately leave it on a bus seat? :)

[NEOWatcher]

They may (should?) have a clause that insists due care be taken.

For instance, would the theft of a $150 million dollar painting be covered, if you were to deliberately leave it on a bus seat? :)
I believe I have highlighted the key word here. Many types of coverage make the distinction between accident and deliberate rather than the party who causes it.
In much the same way that an auto policy will cover damage to a car if you caused the accident, but will not cover it if you deliberately inteaded to cause the accident. This would constitute fraud.

[hhEb09'1]

Let me rephrase my question then, "For instance, would the theft of a $150 million dollar painting be covered, if you were to accidentally leave it on a bus seat?" :)

[Gillianren]

I think the first, obvious question would be, "What were you doing with a $150 million painting on the bus?"

[hhEb09'1]

I think the first, obvious question would be, "What were you doing with a $150 million painting on the bus?"Exactly.

Or, what are you doing waving your arms around like that in front of your painting?

[sarongsong]

...In much the same way that an auto policy will cover damage to a car if you caused the accident, but will not cover it if you deliberately intended to cause the accident. This would constitute fraud.Quite a lot of that does happen, unfortunately, and drivers end up paying for these organized scams through higher premiums.

[pghnative]

...In much the same way that an auto policy will cover damage to a car if you caused the accident, but will not cover it if you deliberately intended to cause the accident. This would constitute fraud.
Quite a lot of that does happen, unfortunately, and drivers end up paying for these organized scams through higher premiums.OT, but I have to add to this. About 10 years ago, the state of New Jersey performed some sting operations, where they staged accidents between a bus and a car. The following occurred:

- passers-by hopped on the bus after the crash and made claims of injury to the police
- some of the police assisted some of the "passengers" in making false claims
- this included the recommendation of doctors who abetted the fraud, either through billing and/or fake medical entries.

It's sad enough that some police and some doctors would commit fraud for some insurance money, but it absolutely astounds me that someone walking by a bus crash would think "hey, I should hop on and claim I was injured"...

[Nicolas]

It's sad enough that some police and some doctors would commit fraud for some insurance money, but it absolutely astounds me that someone walking by a bus crash would think "hey, I should hop on and claim I was injured"...

Darwin takes care of the people pushing this technique to the level of houses being on fire though... ;)

But you're correct, it's very sad behaviour.

[Doodler]

It's sad enough that some police and some doctors would commit fraud for some insurance money, but it absolutely astounds me that someone walking by a bus crash would think "hey, I should hop on and claim I was injured"...


I refuse to be shocked by the lows of human behavior anymore. Irritated and angry? Sure, but I don't think I could live with myself if I walked around every day for the rest of my life with a deer in headlights look on my face. :)

[Nicolas]

but I don't think I could live with myself if I walked around every day for the rest of my life with a deer in headlights look on my face.

If Nicolas Cage can get through life with an abandoned dog look on his face, your bambi eyes will do just fine as well ;)

[Doodler]

If Nicolas Cage can get through life with an abandoned dog look on his face, your bambi eyes will do just fine as well ;)

:hand: :p

Though I'll admit, there are times when I wonder if he's not a botoxer. I've never seen a facial expression of his actually move his eyebrows....

[Donnie B.]

OT, but I have to add to this. About 10 years ago, the state of New Jersey performed some sting operations, where they staged accidents between a bus and a car. The following occurred:

- passers-by hopped on the bus after the crash and made claims of injury to the policeHeh. As I read this I thought it was going to say...

- passers-by hopped on the bus after the crash and demanded that the bus get going again, pronto.

[NEOWatcher]

This appeared in our paper today from the AP (Sorry, but I searched in vain for an online story)

In a bonfire to destroy 2000 confiscated weapons in tanzania... Unfortunately, not all the rounds were removed from the weapons, causing spectators to run to safety as amunition explodes.

With pictures :rolleyes:

And judging from other stories I've seen today...It might just be "national stupid day."

[danscope]

" Hey Kev, what do I like?"
"........Stupid Criminals,Jay!!!":D

[Doodler]

This appeared in our paper today from the AP (Sorry, but I searched in vain for an online story)

In a bonfire to destroy 2000 confiscated weapons in tanzania... Unfortunately, not all the rounds were removed from the weapons, causing spectators to run to safety as amunition explodes.

With pictures :rolleyes:

And judging from other stories I've seen today...It might just be "national stupid day."

If there were ever a model for the Prime Directive about giving ignorant cultures technology they don't fully understand...

[davidlpf]

This appeared in our paper today from the AP (Sorry, but I searched in vain for an online story)

In a bonfire to destroy 2000 confiscated weapons in tanzania... Unfortunately, not all the rounds were removed from the weapons, causing spectators to run to safety as amunition explodes.

With pictures :rolleyes:

And judging from other stories I've seen today...It might just be "national stupid day."
sounds like something from the Darwin Awards.

[sarongsong]

Surprise New Orleans scenario:January 25th, 2007
...Post-Katrina, the city's flooded, it needs to be rebuilt...corporations begin to apply to the Department of Labor, which is the process that you do, to bring in foreign workers...They [guest workers] apply for a visa...go through a recruiting firm...pay anything from $3,000 to $10,000, $15,000 just to be able to come to the United States...They end up in debt...for just coming here in the first place... democracynow (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/25/153210)

[sarongsong]

Poor Steve!June 13, 2007
...the Apple CEO missed out on more than $4 billion in personal profit on Apple stock, thanks to a decision he made to cut his exposure to the stock four years ago. Four billion dollars. And change. Do you think he'd like this one back?...
TheStreet (http://www.thestreet.com/_breitbart/smallbusinesstech/smallbusinesstech/10362142.html?cm_ven=BREITBART&cm_cat=Free&cm_pla=Feed&cm_ite=Feed&puc=breitbart)

[Captain Kidd]

RC2 is announcing the recall of 1.5 million units (http://rc2corp.com/company/recalls_Wood_0607.asp) of its popular Thomas the Tank Engine wooden toys sold since Jan 2005.

Seems that China never got the memo that lead in paint == bad idea.

But hey, they're a developing country, so if they're exempt from the Kyoto Protocol (even though they're about to be the world's top producer of greenhouse gases), surely they're also exempt from the no-lead-in-paint ban too. ;)

Honestly though, two years and they just now figured out that there's lead in them thar cars. Where was their quality control?

[Ronald Brak]

If there were ever a model for the Prime Directive about giving ignorant cultures technology they don't fully understand...

They understand technology allright. Check out some of the amazing hacks done on old car engines in developing countries. As far as practical hands on knowledge is concerned not many in the developed world can match the intelligence and ingenuity of a skilled third world mechanic. It's organization that's the problem, the societal organization specifically. In the developed world someone who understood basic gun safety would be put in charge of disposing of the weapons. In semi-feudal societies it always seems to be someone's cousin. In the developed world their are entire books and manuels and alphabetically acronyomed agencies designed to ensure people's safety. So much so people complain of over regulation. In lots of places they have very little combined with a disregard for safety that was abandoned over 50 years ago in many developed countries.

[danscope]

How about China grinding up and sanding a bunch of Melamine panel board and passing it off as wheat gluten to pet manufacturers for fun and profit.:(

[sarongsong]

Yes, but that's not quite how it was/is obtained.

[danscope]

Hi, I'd like to know how you get from cabinet material to pet food.
Any ideas?
Dan

[sarongsong]

Sure:April 30, 2007
Filler in Animal Feed Is Open Secret in China

...Last Friday here in Zhangqiu, a fast-growing industrial city southeast of Beijing, two animal feed producers explained in great detail how they purchase low-grade wheat, corn, soybean or other proteins and then mix in small portions of nitrogen-rich melamine scrap, whose chemical properties help the feed register an inflated protein level..."Melamine will cost you about $1.20 for each protein count per ton whereas real protein costs you about $6, so you can see the difference."...
N.Y. Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/30/business/worldbusiness/30food.html?ex=1181966400&en=4249cfcaa4c1eb42&ei=5070#articleBodyLink) (p.2)Combine that with the fact that only 1% of Chinese imports to the U.S. are inspected.

[danscope]

Hi, Thanks for the reply.
I should think that I will buy no food products from china, now or in the future. Less than trustworty.
Best regards, Dan

[Ronald Brak]

I should think that I will buy no food products from china, now or in the future. Less than trustworty.

We generally don't have problems with dangerous Chinese goods here, but then we have regulations in place to protect people. Perhaps the U.S. needs to improve in this regard? In the past we've had to ban certain goods from the U.S. because they didn't meet safety standards, but the U.S. has sinced picked up it's game and proven it can be a trustworthy producer. I expect China to be the same.

[triplebird]

RC2 is announcing the recall of 1.5 million...Thomas the Tank Engine wooden toys sold since Jan 2005...


Thomas the Toxic Tank Engine? :)


Lead seems to be a major problem with Chinese manufacturers these days; everything from jewelry to crayons have been recalled recently due to excessive lead levels. I don't think China has a whole lot of government oversight in that department (or in any department, really--Intellectual Property enforcement seems to be non-existant with all the counterfeiting that goes on there.)

[sarongsong]

Well, they do have their ways...May 31, 2007
...Zheng Xiaoyu, former head of the State Food and Drug Administration, faces execution after a Beijing court convicted him on Tuesday of graft and dereliction of duty. He left the post before a recent wave of medicine safety scandals engulfed China...
Reuters (http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2007-05-31T112702Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-300784-1.xml&archived=False)

[Noclevername]

Perhaps the U.S. needs to improve in this regard?


Ah, but inspections cost money! And, as much as our government likes telling people what to do, it dislikes paying for it.

[Ronald Brak]

I don't this counts as ironic, but lead is the reason why many U.S. toys used to be banned here.

Ah, but inspections cost money! And, as much as our government likes telling people what to do, it dislikes paying for it.

It would be just terrible if the government were to skip on regulations and inspections and international law and then when dangers predictably emerge beat up the story to rouse anti-foreign sentiment and distract from domestic problems. Fortunately this would never happen in a sane universe.

[Noclevername]

Fortunately this would never happen in a sane universe.

Why, do you know of one? And more importantly, can I get tickets? :lol:

[Ronald Brak]

Yeah, I gotta keep remembering that my internet connection is a portal to many weird and bizarre not-really-parrallel-at-all universes.

[sarongsong]

An ongoing SoCal saga:April 9, 2004
FDA Statement on Lead Contamination in Certain Candy Products Imported from Mexico...advising parents, care providers and other responsible individuals that it would be prudent to not allow children to eat these products at this time...
FDA (http://www.fda.gov/bbs/topics/news/2004/NEW01048.html)January 21, 2006
...As of this month...state law bans the sale of chile-and tamarind-based candy that tests show have a high lead content. Under the law, the lead level must be reduced to a "naturally occurring" standard. The FDA has just proposed halving the permissible level of lead in candy imported from Mexico. Still, the state testing process is time-consuming and expensive; although it will be funded through penalties and grants, testing will be "implemented only to the degree funding is available," according to the statute. And the manufacturers will be allowed to self-certify that their candies meet the new standard...
May 11, 2007
State health officials are warning people not to eat three brands of candy made in Mexico and sold in California because they contain up to five times the U.S. government's permitted level of lead...
[url=http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/health/20070511-9999-1mu11candyrecall.html]San Diego Union-Tribune (]San Diego Union-Tribune[/url)

[Gillianren]

Yeah, intaking heavy metals is a very bad idea, don't you think?

[Ronald Brak]

I have noticed one more than one occasion, developed countries declaring levels of a certain substance to not be permissable, while ignoring more dangerous levels of another substance. This seems to occur when safety regulations are being used as a defacto form of protectionism. The most amusing example being with tabacco where the U.S. has deemed the international limit of four parts per million of DDT to be unsafe and one part per million to be safe, preventing the importation of tabacco from many countries. This is amusing because cigarettes are poison. A three parts per million difference in DDT levels are not going to make them a whole lot safer.

[sarongsong]

Yeah, intaking heavy metals is a very bad idea, don't you think?Depends on the metal http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ; lead bad, gold and silver good---IMHO.
The lead intake that Mexicans must be absorbing, since it's obviously present in their exports, may be off-set by their passion for cilantro (coriander), a natural heavy metal chelator, so they say (http://www.healthdiaries.com/eatthis/cilantro-chelation-therapy-heavy-metal-detox.html)... http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[Captain Kidd]

Yeah, intaking heavy metals is a very bad idea, don't you think?
Depends on the metal http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ; lead bad, gold and silver good---IMHO.Metallica, AC/DC, Spinal Tap

[hhEb09'1]

Anthrax

[Donnie B.]

Yeah, intaking heavy metals is a very bad idea, don't you think?Duuuuhhhh... I... dunno... :confused:

:shifty:

[Gillianren]

Anthrax

Apparently, the vaccine is now mandatory for all US servicemen overseas.

[sarongsong]

I think hhEb09'1 is referring to the group Anthrax... http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

[Gillianren]

I think hhEb09'1 is referring to the group Anthrax... http://www.bautforum.com/images/icons/icon6.gif

Naturally. There's no vaccine against the other.

[LurchGS]

there ought to be!

Though, none of those can realistically be confused with a true heavy metal (BOC and Black Sabbath aside) like Mercury (Freddy), or Led Zeppelin...

[danscope]

Gerald "Little Milton" Bostock has recently written an epic poem titled....
"Thick as a Brick " as noted on BBC. :)

[triplebird]

Mr. Plumbum strikes again; this time it's Fisher-Price having to recall almost a million toys:

(From http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07257.html)

"Fisher-Price Recalls Licensed Character Toys Due To Lead Poisoning Hazard

[Fisher-Price is recalling] Sesame Street, Dora the Explorer, and other children’s toys...surface paints on the toys could contain excessive levels of lead. Lead is toxic if ingested by young children and can cause adverse health effects...the recall involves various figures and toys that were manufactured between April 19, 2007 and July 6, 2007 and were sold alone or as part of sets..."

At least it didn't take two years to be discovered as with the Thomas the Tank Engine recall. Toy manufacturers need to tell China that lead in paint is not a good idea, and keep oversight on their plants to ensure they stay in compliance.

That said, though, I wonder how much of a problem these toys really represent. Lead paint isn't a hazard if it isn't deteriorating (IIRC). Lead also has to be ingested to be a poison. Normal play would not result in lead entering the body. Even if a child were to put one of these toys in his mouth*, I don't know how much lead would actually come out. AFAIK, no testing has ever been done to see how much of a concern this really is, and people panic whenever lead is mentioned, so I think the "hazards" posed by these toys may be overblown. Of course, as lawsuit-happy as the USA is these days, these recalls are probably more a CYA on the manufacturers' parts.



*I have some Thomas toys similar to the recalled ones. On their shortest dimension they hardly fit into my mouth--yes, I tested this :)--so I think a toddler would have a difficult time getting one into his mouth. Also, the paint on my Thomas figures is very hard. I don't think much could be dissolved by saliva and be ingested.

[Captain Kidd]

At least it didn't take two years to be discovered as with the Thomas the Tank Engine recall. Toy manufacturers need to tell China that lead in paint is not a good idea, and keep oversight on their plants to ensure they stay in compliance.

That said, though, I wonder how much of a problem these toys really represent. Lead paint isn't a hazard if it isn't deteriorating (IIRC). Lead also has to be ingested to be a poison. Normal play would not result in lead entering the body. Even if a child were to put one of these toys in his mouth*, I don't know how much lead would actually come out. AFAIK, no testing has ever been done to see how much of a concern this really is, and people panic whenever lead is mentioned, so I think the "hazards" posed by these toys may be overblown. Of course, as lawsuit-happy as the USA is these days, these recalls are probably more a CYA on the manufacturers' parts.My wife is more concerned about the factory workers than kids over here. They're the ones with the exposure times that, in our opinion, would start to get worrisome.



*I have some Thomas toys similar to the recalled ones. On their shortest dimension they hardly fit into my mouth--yes, I tested this :)--so I think a toddler would have a difficult time getting one into his mouth. Also, the paint on my Thomas figures is very hard. I don't think much could be dissolved by saliva and be ingested.You wouldn't need the whole thing, just an edge to gnaw on. That would create more paint flakes than sucking on the end of one.

[RalofTyr]

Nasa

[Nicolas]

Care to elaborate how the agency that managed to do things that a random (figure of speech :)) scientist or president thought up, such as

-let's land men on the moon
-let's put telescopes in space
-let's make probes to planets and land things on them
-let's make a military positioning system
-let's monitor the weather from space

etc..

And did things such as cataloging a huge, huge variety of wing profiles, develop and provide wind tunnel systems, investigating and developing aircraft security, solar energy etcetc is a failure?

Because somebody says somebody told that he heard that an astronaut was drunk? Because one of the astronauts lost her stability? Because high risk missions imply an accident now and then? Because space and aeronautical research costs money? Or because it provides jobs, knowledge and progress? Oh wait, it can't be that last thing...

Please elaborate.

[Nicolas]

Mr. Plumbum strikes again; this time it's Fisher-Price having to recall almost a million toys:

(From http://www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/prerel/prhtml07/07257.html)

"Fisher-Price Recalls Licensed Character Toys Due To Lead Poisoning Hazard

[Fisher-Price is recalling] Sesame Street, Dora the Explorer, and other children’s toys...surface paints on the toys could contain excessive levels of lead. Lead is toxic if ingested by young children and can cause adverse health effects...the recall involves various figures and toys that were manufactured between April 19, 2007 and July 6, 2007 and were sold alone or as part of sets..."

At least it didn't take two years to be discovered as with the Thomas the Tank Engine recall. Toy manufacturers need to tell China that lead in paint is not a good idea, and keep oversight on their plants to ensure they stay in compliance.

That said, though, I wonder how much of a problem these toys really represent. Lead paint isn't a hazard if it isn't deteriorating (IIRC). Lead also has to be ingested to be a poison. Normal play would not result in lead entering the body. Even if a child were to put one of these toys in his mouth*, I don't know how much lead would actually come out. AFAIK, no testing has ever been done to see how much of a concern this really is, and people panic whenever lead is mentioned, so I think the "hazards" posed by these toys may be overblown. Of course, as lawsuit-happy as the USA is these days, these recalls are probably more a CYA on the manufacturers' parts.



*I have some Thomas toys similar to the recalled ones. On their shortest dimension they hardly fit into my mouth--yes, I tested this :)--so I think a toddler would have a difficult time getting one into his mouth. Also, the paint on my Thomas figures is very hard. I don't think much could be dissolved by saliva and be ingested.

There's more than just lead paint that some chinese factoriees should get in order. For example, some of them don't believe that different manufactures make different quality electronic components and that this influences the end result, and then are surprised when after review their test batch gets returned with an endless list of what needs to be corrected. In most cases it doesn't stay with using poor grade components, but simply not even following the provided schematic. Or forgetting something like place for cooling (indicated on the schematics, of course, but that ain't a primary function so woops, it worked without eh).

Now doing low cost is really great, but when you're building for a company, the only standards that are relevant are those of the company sending out the contract, not of the factory building them.

I don't imply this as a general complaint against anything "made in China" or as something that is exclusive to China, but it happens more than rarely. If things don't improve, I wonder how long it will take before other low cost alternatives are sought.

Already several chinese export products are being banned.

And it's certainly not the case that only the European or US industry could produce things up to our standards. I own Japanese electronics of 33 years ago that still works perfectly and is still up to all standards (well, not the recent "no lead in solder" obviously). The only thing that went bad after all this years were some elco's -which rarely ever live that long anyway- that really eated themselves because they were from a bad batch. Something they couldn't know at the time, and wasn't the result of cost reduction or anything. I have a US produced alternative of similar age that was in a similar condition. So both US, Europe and Asia can and could also in the past make things up to "our" standards. Moral of the story: it's a mentality issue, certainly not a geographical issue. Quite some (Chinese) low cost factories will have to seriously change mentality.

[Michael Noonan]

What would be the likely outcome of a Tunguska like event in todays world?

Do you think we would set off the nukes and then ask questions?

Where would be a really good area not to hit, not that there would be any area that anyone would want to receive a blow like that.

But given the world today, is there any area that just could not sustain an event like that without dragging everyone in?

Now that would be a blunder of Epic proportions!

[Nicolas]

yeah sure, a huge blast, no radioactivity, and whichever country it landed on starts to randomly throw some nukes on whichever enemies it has without the slightest hint of evidence that a) it was a nuke and b) who threw the nuke.

To answer your question, if it hit the exact same spot today as it did back then, you wouldn't have a significantly different outcome. if it hit somewhere else, you'd likely have many deaths (directly or due to waves if it hit the ocean). But triggering a nuclear war? Highly unlikely. But if you want to call names, suppose N Korea got hit. So? A huge impact, no radioactivity, nobody claiming they did it, all enemies claiming they did NOT do it. Would North Korea nuke somebody as response? Who? Why?

highly, highly unrealistic IMO.

[ASEI]

Skylab. How exactly was skylab a failure? We did more with it (science, non-construction) than we have with the ISS so far. We got some of our first zero-g materials processes from it (metal foams, ect).

[triplebird]

You wouldn't need the whole thing, just an edge to gnaw on. That would create more paint flakes than sucking on the end of one.

True...I wasn't much of a toy-chewer when I was little (AFAIK, at least :)), that's why I thought more of sucking rather than chewing.


...it's a mentality issue, certainly not a geographical issue. Quite some (Chinese) low cost factories will have to seriously change mentality.

That's exactly right, and as you say not necessarily limited to China. It's a mentality issue on the importer's part too: when you look for the cheapest supplier possible it leads to these problems, since the cheapest supplier is likely to have the least amount of quality-control. Also, it seems many consumers don't care either; not willing to pay more for better quality.

[ASEI]

Well, quantity and cost versus quality is a tradeoff, not necessarily something that is always in favor of higher quality. In WWII, the germans had the best tanks. They were hand-tooled individually, like porsches. We had problematic tanks of lower quality, but they were turned off an assembly line in massive lots and sent to Europe on welded mass-produced transport ships. In that case quantity/cheapness totally smashed quality.

If you have a tool that you know is a peice of crap and will do the job you need it to (a job that you don't need to do repeatedly), then break sometime down the road, and it costs $10, and there is another tool that is built to last, according to exacting standards, but costs $400, you're going to get the cheap, crappy tool.

There is also a diminishing return to quality - it doesn't matter how much money or loving attention you spend on a device, it will never be infallible. The first 50% of quality improvement is easy. The 95% mark is an effort to maintain. That last 5% will always cost more than you can afford. Basically, the tradespace is convex - most of the time you don't want total crap, but you have to accept less than perfect quality.

---------------

PS - not a specific objection to your post about substandard Chinese quality. I'm just getting my 2 cents in about the "quality quality quality, total quality, zero defect" message that has been blasted at me for the past three weeks.

[Ronald Brak]

I think NASA and Skylab and everything NASA has ever done can definitely be described as expensive blunders that cost a fortune from the point of view that the U.S. government could have taken all their funding and given it directly to me but failed to do so. I'll never forgive them for that. Well okay, I'll forgive them just this once, but it had better not happen again.

[korjik]

What would be the likely outcome of a Tunguska like event in todays world?

Do you think we would set off the nukes and then ask questions?

Where would be a really good area not to hit, not that there would be any area that anyone would want to receive a blow like that.

But given the world today, is there any area that just could not sustain an event like that without dragging everyone in?

Now that would be a blunder of Epic proportions!

The great big meteor that all the eyewitnesses saw just before detonation would tend to make people think of a meteor (go fig :) )

Believe it or not, but military people are not psychotic kill-bots. They know better than anyone what will happen if they push the button, and considering that they are also the main target for the other side's weapons, will tend to make them think before they pull the trigger.

[Maksutov]

Skylab.How exactly was skylab a failure? We did more with it (science, non-construction) than we have with the ISS so far. We got some of our first zero-g materials processes from it (metal foams, ect).Skylab was definitely not a failure.

The failure was Nixon et al, junking Apollo Applications in favor of a brand-new, exists-only-in-drawings space transportation system that never could have been launched in time (despite all the NASA pipe dreams) to rescue Skylab.

[Ronald Brak]

The shuttle definitely never achieved it raison d'etre.

[RalofTyr]

Care to elaborate how the agency that managed to do things that a random (figure of speech :)) scientist or president thought up, such as

-let's land men on the moon
-let's put telescopes in space
-let's make probes to planets and land things on them
-let's make a military positioning system
-let's monitor the weather from space

etc..

And did things such as cataloging a huge, huge variety of wing profiles, develop and provide wind tunnel systems, investigating and developing aircraft security, solar energy etcetc is a failure?

Because somebody says somebody told that he heard that an astronaut was drunk? Because one of the astronauts lost her stability? Because high risk missions imply an accident now and then? Because space and aeronautical research costs money? Or because it provides jobs, knowledge and progress? Oh wait, it can't be that last thing...

Please elaborate.



Let's just say that the budget planners at NASA have little concept of how the economy works the or concept of money in general. They think money grows on trees. That's engineers for you. Basically, for the amount of money spent on NASA, everyone in the United States could have gone to college for free.

[Maksutov]

Let's just say that the budget planners at NASA have little concept of how the economy works the or concept of money in general. They think money grows on trees. That's engineers for you.Actually engineers have an excellent concept of economics. It's part of the education an engineer receives. What engineers object to is accountants coming in and slashing the funding for engineering projects based on bean counting, without any regard for the impact the resulting lack of funds will have on the overall success of the project.

The STS is prime example. It was the best solution for the "regular access to LEO" that the engineers could come up with based on the limited funds they were provided with. For just a few percentiles more than Dick's budget, we'd now have reusable boosters, no SRBs, and a system that would still be viable well into the 21st century. Plus, without the SRBs, probably a number of astronauts still alive.Basically, for the amount of money spent on NASA, everyone in the United States could have gone to college for free.Yup, that's true. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif And then they could go to work at fulfilling jobs in the service sector, marketing, and maybe even the tobacco industry. Without computers, cell phones, GPS, CDs, advanced digital medical procedures, economical cars, better weather forecasts, advanced materials to save weight and energy, and many other things, of course.Hey, I've got a government-funded BA! Wait until I show my mother (who, unbeknownst to her has a brain tumor that will kill her, but is undetectable to her doctors since there's no such thing as MRI, CAT, etc.)!

[ASEI]

I doubt it's true. There are 300 million people in the country, and NASAs budget is only 14 billion dollars. That would amount to $46/person/year. It wouldn't even pay for one week of college-student fast food consumption.

[Damien Evans]

When the war is over and the generals write their memoirs, none of them ever write, "Boy, was I incompetant."

In our General Blameys case, and quite often in Macarthurs as well, everyone else wrote that for them

[tdvance]

I've never run the numbers, but Heinlein once said that the Apollo program is one of the very few government programs that paid for itself and then some, in terms of tax revenue from all the spinoff technology sold in the private sector. A coworker of mine said that the spinoff technology "could" have been developed without Apollo--true, but it wasn't! In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. (Yogi Berra, supposedly, but as he once said, he didn't say half the things he said).

Heinlein's conclusion was that it's sad that when budgets need to be cut, NASA gets it before government programs that don't have any or much return on investment.

Incidentally, the government IS sending a lot of people to college--some with outright grants, many more by guaranteeing loans (which both reduces the interest rate and allows banks to be more lenient on credit rating requirements). A person capable of getting admission to a college can almost surely get one some way or another.

Actually engineers have an excellent concept of economics. It's part of the education an engineer receives. What engineers object to is accountants coming in and slashing the funding for engineering projects based on bean counting, without any regard for the impact the resulting lack of funds will have on the overall success of the project.

The STS is prime example. It was the best solution for the "regular access to LEO" that the engineers could come up with based on the limited funds they were provided with. For just a few percentiles more than Dick's budget, we'd now have reusable boosters, no SRBs, and a system that would still be viable well into the 21st century. Plus, without the SRBs, probably a number of astronauts still alive.Yup, that's true. http://img137.imageshack.us/img137/566/iconwink6tn.gif And then they could go to work at fulfilling jobs in the service sector, marketing, and maybe even the tobacco industry. Without computers, cell phones, GPS, CDs, advanced digital medical procedures, economical cars, better weather forecasts, advanced materials to save weight and energy, and many other things, of course.

[sarongsong]

Ha---NASA's got nothing on the Pentagon!July 20, 2007
...Of roughly $1.8 billion (euro1.3 billion) worth of equipment the Defense Department downgraded to scrap from January through June, at least $330 million (euro239 million) worth came from categories of gear the Pentagon most frequently buys back from surplus dealers...
FindLaw (http://news.corporate.findlaw.com/ap/p/56/07-23-2007/dd82004cf67b763a.html)

[Ronald Brak]

I doubt it's true. There are 300 million people in the country, and NASAs budget is only 14 billion dollars. That would amount to $46/person/year. It wouldn't even pay for one week of college-student fast food consumption.

I don't think it would pay for a United States college education, but it's not quite that bad. NASA's budget this year is about $16.8 billion and there are about 17 million college age people in the U.S.. I think college age is a five year period so that comes to about $5,000 per person. Probably much less than the average cost of a degree in the United States, but certainly enough to be helpful.

On the economics side, a lot of NASA's budget goes into R&D (including pure research). R&D is good for the economy. There are very good reasons why tax money should be used for research and development. However, not all the R&D NASA does is of equal value. NASA would produce more economic value for the United States and the world if its budget went only into higher quality R&D. This would involve dumping or curtailing several programs. Just which R&D is the most valuable is probably a matter for another thread, but I will mention that if you want something specific it's probably best to research it directly than hope it will be developed as a spin off.

[tbm]

I never went beyond a 2 year associate's degree.

HUGE mistake.

tbm

[Gillianren]

I attended one of the cheapest 4-year colleges in the US, and I couldn't have gotten my degree for $5000. Heck, I'm not sure I could've gotten my AA for $5000--leaving aside the out-of-state tuition issue my first year.

[Larry Jacks]

Besides, I personally think the push for everyone to go to college is a mistake. We also need people who are good at building and fixing things if we're to maintain a viable economy. Besides, someone with good trade skills can make a very good living. My wife and I had to hire an electrician to do some wiring that was beyond my ability. He charged us $65 an hour which is the local rate. There are a lot of college graduates who have no marketable skills. In my opinion, they've really wasted a lot of money on their "education." They would've probably done a lot better in life by going to a good trade school.

[Damien Evans]

I attended one of the cheapest 4-year colleges in the US, and I couldn't have gotten my degree for $5000. Heck, I'm not sure I could've gotten my AA for $5000--leaving aside the out-of-state tuition issue my first year.

$5000 a degree would be nice, I'm paying $4000 a year for 3 years, ouch

[Nicolas]

My college money is 2000 per year, so that's 10000. Add to that just the cost of my student room at 3000 per year, that's 25000. Now I haven't eaten, bought cloths or the necessary PC for that money. Getting 5000 by cancelling NASA would make my studies roughly 20% cheaper. And it would make my diploma potential (aerospace) somewhat more than 20% less...

Keep NASA where it is, and feed the hungry and studying children with good social and economical studies rather than just some money. R&D is pronounced "future". Without a future, we might as well not feed ourselves.