Gimps, Cripples, & Freaks in OUTERSPACE

[Dr Forbin]

TO ALL WHO MAY ENTER GREETINGS AND SALUTATIONS!!!!!

I have started this thread for my fellow humans whom may be discribed by "normal people" as "disabled" { non-functioning, broken, made unworkable or not operational} or concived to be as "handicapped". {Funny.... I don't ever remember running with horses.} This is being started becouse norms sometimes get upset and up tight if we break away from a thread's topic and happen to discuss our physical or other personal differences from them as a happen stance of carrying on a normal one on one or more conversation in the general discussion of the thread topic.
Here in this thread you may do so without being slandered or abused by the "normal people".

Some norms may even have intelligent comments to make or questions to ask, as has been the case else where on this fourm, and are invited to please "drop in" and partake in discussions of..... whatever.

This tread is located in the "OFF TOPIC BABBLING" section of the fourm and is open to the topic of anyone's choice.

Thank You

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I have a poser.

When will NASA get around to sending a "gimp" into space? I've watched many non-military, non-pilot, civilian, "mission specialists" recieve the opportunity to be orbited so, what's the big hold up? Is having two "real" arms and two "real" legs all that important to having a mission be a success?{No! This is not a joke! It's a legit question so, a legit answer would be nice.}

[Kebsis]

...did someone here talk down to you for mentioning your disability in another thread?

[Dr Forbin]

The person became upset becouse the postings wandered off topic, like times 3, and he made what could be viewd as a slanderious remark against all, if not most of us gimps.

But, as we used to say way back when.... "It don't mean nothin'."
Some normal people just aren't normal.;)

That's why I started this thread, so gimps like others and myself can meet with real normal people who don't mind us getting sidetracked and talking about stuff like that for awhile. I just thought it would be a good idea to have this place after that.

I've got something better for ya.

I had just posted in your thread on laser treatment for smoking, went "thread hopping", read a few posts then, when going to sign off, I notice on my thread that, Kebsis and the cavalry have come up over the mountain, straight up 208.... from HACKENSACK, NEW JERSEY no less!!!! :D

Now that is wierd man! Twilight Zone stuff!

I would have never guessed anyone so close by was also on this fourm. I don't bother looking for locations of people, just topics of interests.

In any case, THANKS FOR COMMING IN and please do again. Everyone is welcome.

{By the way, I don't have your stapler.:D }

[Donnie B.]

I believe the closest we've come to "gimps in space" is the three robots in Silent Running. They were at least played by limb-count challenged actors.

[Gillianren]

They have to take into consideration the ability of a person to withstand liftoff. I, for one, couldn't (leaving out my mental illness entirely), so NASA shouldn't send me into space. QED.

Oh, and I don't think you were insulted. I think you took a legitimate request to stay on topic too personally.

[Jeff Root]

I'm too lazy to go into Space. I had hoped to come up with some
good idea for a payload to launch on a Shuttle, for which I would
be the natural first choice as payload specialist, but -- aside from
the fact that I never came up with a good payload idea which
needs a specialist aboard -- I'm too lazy to keep up with a Space
Shuttle crew. I would get in the way more than I would help, and
that is an excellent reason to get the boot. I wouldn't want me
on my crew. So unfortunately I'm outa luck.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Dr Forbin]

I believe the closest we've come to "gimps in space" is the three robots in Silent Running. They were at least played by limb-count challenged actors.

I have a problem recalling that movie clearly, not having seen it in a while.

Was that the one which took place on some type of agro-ship and the triangular shaped robots were named Hughie, Louie, and Dewie?

You say they were played by "limb-count challenged" actors. This is new news to me. Really. Well.... there's a bit of info I haven't heard or had a hint about.

Thanks much Donnie! I now have some new knowledge buddy! :)

Now, do ya think it would be possable, for a person who has had an arm or leg removed, and is in other wise perfect physical condition, to fly at least as a mission specialist?

Lets make the persons med. hx. a bit clearer. This missing appendage is due to unrepairable damage to ONLY that limb affected via heavy trauma ( sorry... caused by a heavy weight) and it had to be amputated. The person did not even get a scratch anywhere else in or on their body.

If the person is qualified, is it possable?

P.S. I have not heard the phrase limb-count challenged eather. It's a new one to me. Is that like being vertically challenged only on the horizontal axis? Man... that's a funny one dude! Or mabey they can't count past one... or at all when counting limbs only and they have them all! HA! Wild thoughts! :D

[Nicolas]

The person became upset becouse the postings wandered off topic, like times 3, and he made what could be viewd as a slanderious remark against all, if not most of us gimps.

But, as we used to say way back when.... "It don't mean nothin'."
Some normal people just aren't normal.

You're talking about me? If you have questions about any of my posts, the first thing to do is ask me (we've got a PM function) rather than keep going on about it in public, thank you very much. If you were talking about me, you TOTALLY misinterpreted my post, as I had already said in the other thread. I also have no clue as to how you would know I or somebody else who posts here still has all limbs and other functionallity, or is by any other definition "normal". It's just something you assumed. If you were talking about somebody else, please keep it clear and handle it with that person first rather than everybody else.

About sending people into space who's body or mind is not in mint condition over the whole line: it has been done. There have been people with reduced eyesight going into space for a start. In total, about 600 people have been going into space. They have been selected for a whole range of specifics, and had to show they were very suitable in fulfilling all standard and emergency subtasks.

Reduced eyesight was no problem for certain mission specialists because all things added up they were best fit for their job (due to their other experiences) and their eyesight issue was not of magnitude that they were a possible danger for themselves or others in all aspects of the space mission, so they were allowed on the flight. I don't know the full set of requirements on limbs, but it's quite possible you need two fully controllable hands to get in and out of a space suit and perform other mission tasks, which would exclude people who lost an arm. I don't know what would be the problem for people who lost a leg. Maybe also getting into the space suit, maybe bailing out in emergencies, I don't know. I don't even know whether it is a problem. The fact that it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it's not allowed or can't happen.

What I do know, is that they select people who can perform optimally in the limited amount of time available in space, and who on top of that have as little risk as possible to suffer from the mission (a past of serious back injuries and launches are no happy marriage), or become (partially) unable to perform their mission while in space because of latent problems (people with seriously increased heart risks).

At the moment, they send people in space who they need most in space (space tourists being something else, and the last flight of John Glenn is discussable :)). I don't think that people with one or more of their limbs replaced by protheses are the best candidates, even though they could perform 99% of the mission.

Somebody who has 19/20 eyesight also can perform 99% of a jet fighter mission, but isn't among the limited selection of those people best fit for the job. Heck, even somebody who had his eyes operated to get them back to 20/20 simply isn't allowed to become F16 pilot in Belgium.

So I don't think it's a matter of not being able to perform the mission, or personal issues, but a matter of "best fit for the job". I do think that they would have little problem with sending somebody who is a total guru in his specialist field into space (on a mission where they need his knowledge) as long as any issues he might have are no problem for the mission. That means, if he never will need ten fingers and he ain't got ten left, no prob. If he'll never need 20/20 eyesight and he hasn't got it, no prob. If he has lost control of the lower 60% of his body and he needs that in certain parts of the mission, a prob.

[Dr Forbin]

They have to take into consideration the ability of a person to withstand liftoff. I, for one, couldn't (leaving out my mental illness entirely), so NASA shouldn't send me into space. QED.

Oh, and I don't think you were insulted. I think you took a legitimate request to stay on topic too personally.

Wow Gillianren. Whatever happened must be really humungious and totally serious stuff. I hate to agree with you but, if you yourself feel you couldn't survive a liftoff, you shouldn't try.

Hey, last month I had to give in my GA ticket. Eather that or take the chance of landing in somebody's upstairs bedroom. My glucose numbers are starting to creep up now, going from a Type B to an A I guess, and the flight surg. said he couldn't put in for an FAA exemption for me.
Oh well... it was fun for alot of years.
So, I'll never ever make it eather. Another dream shot down and the depression is setting in over everything again.

Mental illness? And you clearly and wisely opt not to go becouse of physical problems? I'd say in my opinion, your thinking is on the right track and darn good! :)
Some of the brainless, no thinking at all stunts I've pulled. I'm the one with the mental illness around here. I should've been worm food for a loooong time. :D

Gillianren.... If ever I should get you upset by something I may write.... I want you to let me know. Don't get mad over it. Just say "Hey Rick, you know what you said about....", and we or I will fix things. It happens with my wife and many other people. I may use the wrong words, terminology, phrases, tone of voice, whatever, and we end up dueling vocally when there's no need to. I'm certain I MUST come across in my writings the same way as I speek. You be assured I am not a bully and I don't try to insult people knowingly.

On to the other matter you mention.

That little remark the person made about the disabled not wanting to pay for services rendered, was indeed a slanderious statement. ALL my bills are and have been paid in full. I am NOT a dead beat. I owe no one anything. For that matter, some creditors still owe me payments!

Perhaps you are correct I over reacted.... the first time.

Then he continued on and with more non-sense and even complained I had spelled his name wrong, in a new posting of his, when I went back to topic and asked, "What's the latest scoop on NASA ads? Yea or Nay?"

So, Then I let him know what what I felt about him and his thread after that.

As I told another poster on this thread earlyer, "It don't mean nothin'." I deal with that "norm" type in person frequently. I could care less about him, his thread, or whatever he has to continue to say. He's just another name in the fourm. That's all. No big deal. All over and done with.

I'm here to enjoy the fourm, meet and communicate with persons having the same interest, and discuss subjects / topics. Nothing else.

See tomarrow God willin' and the krick don't rise.

[Nicolas]

Ok so you're talking about HenrikOlsen, not me.

How do you know his mental and physical abilities are those of a normal person? also, I'm not sure he meant it were the persons with the whateveryouliketocallthemissues who were the ones not willing to pay for it.

Ask for calrity before making a fight over things and don't divide people in camps. It will make this place a lot nicer for all of us.

[Dr Forbin]

You're talking about me? If you have questions about any of my posts, the first thing to do is ask me (we've got a PM function) rather than keep going on about it in public, thank you very much. If you were talking about me, you TOTALLY misinterpreted my post, as I had already said in the other thread. I also have no clue as to how you would know I or somebody else who posts here still has all limbs and other functionallity, or is by any other definition "normal". It's just something you assumed. If you were talking about somebody else, please keep it clear and handle it with that person first rather than everybody else.


No Nicolas. The incident has or had nothing to do with you at all. It's over. It's done. It didn't happen as far as I'm concerned.

It's like 5:30 AM and I have to get some sleep but, I just felt I had to let ya know ya have nothing to do with anything and nothing to fret about.

I'll get back to ya on the rest of your post sometime today.

[HenrikOlsen]

That little remark the person made about the disabled not wanting to pay for services rendered, was indeed a slanderious statement. ALL my bills are and have been paid in full. I am NOT a dead beat. I owe no one anything. For that matter, some creditors still owe me payments!
I think I finally see where our problem started, you live in a country where people pay for their own treatments, I live in one where it's publicly funded through taxes.

When I asked for proper names so there would be money paid, I meant that if it's called handicapped instead of differently abled, there would probably be more tax money allocated, (and you might have insurance companies more willing to pay as well, though I wouldn't hold my breath for that one).

Your interpretation of my remark was about as far from its intended meaning as mine was of your remark about Nicolas's heart.

[Gillianren]

Wow Gillianren. Whatever happened must be really humungious and totally serious stuff. I hate to agree with you but, if you yourself feel you couldn't survive a liftoff, you shouldn't try.

It's not that I wouldn't survive, it's that I couldn't withstand it. Subtle difference. I would live. I would just be in so much pain that I wouldn't particularly want to. Who needs a history of back injuries when you have scoliosis?

Mental illness? And you clearly and wisely opt not to go becouse of physical problems? I'd say in my opinion, your thinking is on the right track and darn good! :)
Some of the brainless, no thinking at all stunts I've pulled. I'm the one with the mental illness around here. I should've been worm food for a loooong time. :D

Um, there's a big difference between "mentally ill" and "stupid," if that's what you're implying. Actually, there's a fairly strong correlation between my particular condition and high intelligence. However, I'm bipolar and prone to panic attacks. I am not someone you want in space, either for physical or mental reasons.

[snip]

I was right; you misinterpreted. What's more, it is rude to spell someone's name wrong, and the proper response is, "I'm sorry. I'll try to spell it right in the future."

[Dr Forbin]

You're talking about me? If you have questions about any of my posts, the first thing to do is ask me (we've got a PM function) rather than keep going on about it in public, thank you very much. If you were talking about me, you TOTALLY misinterpreted my post, as I had already said in the other thread. I also have no clue as to how you would know I or somebody else who posts here still has all limbs and other functionallity, or is by any other definition "normal". It's just something you assumed. If you were talking about somebody else, please keep it clear and handle it with that person first rather than everybody else.

About sending people into space who's body or mind is not in mint condition over the whole line: it has been done. There have been people with reduced eyesight going into space for a start. In total, about 600 people have been going into space. They have been selected for a whole range of specifics, and had to show they were very suitable in fulfilling all standard and emergency subtasks.

Reduced eyesight was no problem for certain mission specialists because all things added up they were best fit for their job (due to their other experiences) and their eyesight issue was not of magnitude that they were a possible danger for themselves or others in all aspects of the space mission, so they were allowed on the flight. I don't know the full set of requirements on limbs, but it's quite possible you need two fully controllable hands to get in and out of a space suit and perform other mission tasks, which would exclude people who lost an arm. I don't know what would be the problem for people who lost a leg. Maybe also getting into the space suit, maybe bailing out in emergencies, I don't know. I don't even know whether it is a problem. The fact that it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that it's not allowed or can't happen.

What I do know, is that they select people who can perform optimally in the limited amount of time available in space, and who on top of that have as little risk as possible to suffer from the mission (a past of serious back injuries and launches are no happy marriage), or become (partially) unable to perform their mission while in space because of latent problems (people with seriously increased heart risks).

At the moment, they send people in space who they need most in space (space tourists being something else, and the last flight of John Glenn is discussable :)). I don't think that people with one or more of their limbs replaced by protheses are the best candidates, even though they could perform 99% of the mission.

Somebody who has 19/20 eyesight also can perform 99% of a jet fighter mission, but isn't among the limited selection of those people best fit for the job. Heck, even somebody who had his eyes operated to get them back to 20/20 simply isn't allowed to become F16 pilot in Belgium.

So I don't think it's a matter of not being able to perform the mission, or personal issues, but a matter of "best fit for the job". I do think that they would have little problem with sending somebody who is a total guru in his specialist field into space (on a mission where they need his knowledge) as long as any issues he might have are no problem for the mission. That means, if he never will need ten fingers and he ain't got ten left, no prob. If he'll never need 20/20 eyesight and he hasn't got it, no prob. If he has lost control of the lower 60% of his body and he needs that in certain parts of the mission, a prob.

Nicolas,

You bring up many good points. Suiting up may be a task for a one armed person with a two armed suit. Same for a one legged person. I don't think NASA will be spending much money on custom made special suits anytime soon. Putting on standard suits in an emergency is tuff enough for regular persons. Combined with a possable bail-out situation, it could be a bad senario altogether.

I wonder if the astronaut who, kept loosing those bolts on this last flight to the ISS, had two hands!:D More "space junk" floating around out there!

If a person had other medical problems which could affect them or their preformance, I agree with you that, they shouldn't be allowed to go up. As you point out, time is limited and preformance must be optimized. A sick or injured crew member would hinder the mission's success or possably cause it to be cut short.

Eye sight! Mine was above normal and in the last 5 years, became standard 20/20. I pass all my vision tests but, feel sometimes that, I can't see well. It's unnerving at times.

John Glenn's flight was a good public relations stunt no matter how much or what way you look at it. He's one lucky guy to have gone up again in any case.

I believe the same as you do. It has nothing to do with the person, only that they be the best one for the job required of them.

[Dr Forbin]

I'm too lazy to go into Space. I had hoped to come up with some
good idea for a payload to launch on a Shuttle, for which I would
be the natural first choice as payload specialist, but -- aside from
the fact that I never came up with a good payload idea which
needs a specialist aboard -- I'm too lazy to keep up with a Space
Shuttle crew. I would get in the way more than I would help, and
that is an excellent reason to get the boot. I wouldn't want me
on my crew. So unfortunately I'm outa luck.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Perhaps you yourself could be the payload. I'm sure every single medical experiment that could be dreamt of, has not taken place yet.

I'll race ya to the hatch! ;)

[SAMU]

On mission, legs may be a handicap. It has often been mentioned that legs even get in the way during a mission and contribute little to an astronaut's ability to perform a given task in orbit. It has even been suggested that leg amputees might have an advantage due to the fact that there is less weight to lift to orbit from the legs themselves, The spacesuits and even the spacecraft could be made smaller and lower weight and the person needs to consume less food, water and oxygen to support legs.

However those advantages only acrue in weightlessness. All the training the astronaut has to do is done in gravity. Then there is a real handicap in training for even the simplest tasks.

That's a real good reason not to use handicaped people.

In the future, when so many people populate space that some training is done in space, then maybe what would be a handicap in gravity would be a practical advantage in weightlessness.

[Dr Forbin]

It's not that I wouldn't survive, it's that I couldn't withstand it. Subtle difference. I would live. I would just be in so much pain that I wouldn't particularly want to. Who needs a history of back injuries when you have scoliosis?



Um, there's a big difference between "mentally ill" and "stupid," if that's what you're implying. Actually, there's a fairly strong correlation between my particular condition and high intelligence. However, I'm bipolar and prone to panic attacks. I am not someone you want in space, either for physical or mental reasons.

[snip]

I was right; you misinterpreted. What's more, it is rude to spell someone's name wrong, and the proper response is, "I'm sorry. I'll try to spell it right in the future."

Again Gillianren, I agree with you. I wouldn't want the pain eather nor the possable damage to go along with it.

I don't think mental illness and stupidity are that far spread apart.
Preforming a task which, could end ones life outright, when a person has given it thought and does not have to preform it, is a choice to commit an insane act. Fighter pilots, astronauts, racecar drivers, anyone who takes an informed "risk" falls into this catergory.
Why not opt for being safe and sound instead, as you have by choosing no launches for yourself? Becouse you have thought the problem out and there's no mental illness indicated here.

Where as "doing something stupid" is, not thinking at all about the action first, just doing it. That's a "crazy" action in and of itself and a sign of mental illness and / or of a lack of proper brain function on that persons part.
I would, as a child and a young man, act in this manner.
Until I was around 22 years old, I viewed my self as being totally indistructable. Right until I met with a telephone pole to the face, in the dark, on a motorcycle, becouse of a drunk driver going the wrong way on a narrow, car lined, one way street. {and yes, the police caught him.... again!}
I swear my brain must have banged and bounced around inside and fixed what ever was wrong or loose in there becouse, I began to think before doing things after that.

So, stupidity or being stupid, can be a form of or indicative of, a mental illness or brain malfunction.

I have small, real small panic attacks. Very far and inbetween but, probably nothing like yours. I have a more manic / depression thing going instead. So far, I don't have to take meds for it and can recognize what is going on and when.
I'm sure you have states of depression also but hey, that would only be expected and normal concidering your physical condition.

You're right. The whole thing is one big F.U.B.A.R. incident. It is over, done, fini, and history.

Why are the gals always right? :think:

WAIT.... You are a girl correct? I hate getting foot in mouth desease all the time. I'm trying to cut down and keep those darn infections to at least once a month. :D

[Dr Forbin]

I think I finally see where our problem started, you live in a country where people pay for their own treatments, I live in one where it's publicly funded through taxes.

When I asked for proper names so there would be money paid, I meant that if it's called handicapped instead of differently abled, there would probably be more tax money allocated, (and you might have insurance companies more willing to pay as well, though I wouldn't hold my breath for that one).

Your interpretation of my remark was about as far from its intended meaning as mine was of your remark about Nicolas's heart.

You are absolutly correct Henrik and this dumb arguement should have never taken place.

I am sorry and I appologize for being so rude and nasty to a fellow human being. Please concider the incident over with and let us move on to much more fruitful fields of discussion.

Respectfully Submitted,
Rick (Dr. Forbin)

[Dr Forbin]

On mission, legs may be a handicap. It has often been mentioned that legs even get in the way during a mission and contribute little to an astronaut's ability to perform a given task in orbit. It has even been suggested that leg amputees might have an advantage due to the fact that there is less weight to lift to orbit from the legs themselves, The spacesuits and even the spacecraft could be made smaller and lower weight and the person needs to consume less food, water and oxygen to support legs.

However those advantages only acrue in weightlessness. All the training the astronaut has to do is done in gravity. Then there is a real handicap in training for even the simplest tasks.

That's a real good reason not to use handicaped people.

In the future, when so many people populate space that some training is done in space, then maybe what would be a handicap in gravity would be a practical advantage in weightlessness.

Indeed, not having lower limbs would be an advantage in a weightless environ but, unless a person has made the solid decision to stay and work in space forever, the advantage vs. going back home to earth, isn't worth it. At least to myself.

Much of the training astronauts recieve, a certain number of bi-laterial amputees can preform as well. The question being is the person able to preform the assigned tasks correctly, within time alloted, and safely, as well as deal with an emergency, if it should arise, without putting other crew members in jepordy.

Thanks SAMU

[Lurker]

That little remark the person made about the disabled not wanting to pay for services rendered, was indeed a slanderious statement. ALL my bills are and have been paid in full. I am NOT a dead beat. I owe no one anything. For that matter, some creditors still owe me payments!



I think I finally see where our problem started, you live in a country where people pay for their own treatments, I live in one where it's publicly funded through taxes.

When I asked for proper names so there would be money paid, I meant that if it's called handicapped instead of differently abled, there would probably be more tax money allocated, (and you might have insurance companies more willing to pay as well, though I wouldn't hold my breath for that one).

Your interpretation of my remark was about as far from its intended meaning as mine was of your remark about Nicolas's heart.
I agree with you here HenrikOlsen. In this country we sometimes get so concerned with the concept of "differently abled", that it seems as though it is left up to the individual to pay for the medical treatment necessary to modify the condition. As if cosmetic treatments and treatments for the "differently abled" fall into the same category.

Well.. having spent the majority of my life in a hell beyond the understanding of most here... except for Gillianren and one or two others who have shared my condition, To say that I was differently abled is like saying the arthritis suffer, crippled by their condition, is differently abled. We are in pain... we cry out for help...

I have been very successfully with venlafaxine and have the most wonderful normal life now. Unfortunately the medication I take costs aboue $10 per day. Others find themselves faced with similar costs, we need help just like someone who suffers from high blood pressure or any other medical issue. The arthritis suffer can function to an extent, and so can we... but we are not "alternatively abled" we are disabled, and we ask for help...

[Nereid]

[snip]

I don't think mental illness and stupidity are that far spread apart.

[snip]Perhaps you might consider clarifying this statement, Dr Forbin.

As you are no doubt aware, a large number of people who made big, positive contributions to the collective wisdom of us humans were afflicted by mental illness. To take just two 20th century examples, from widely different fields:

Kari Kairamo, who suffered from a bipolar disorder, was the CEO of Nokia. He laid the foundations for what became, in later years, the most valuable non-US brand, and the most successful Finnish company in a century.

Georg Cantor, who suffered from what today we would call depression, made seminal contributions to mathematics; while perhaps not quite in the same league as Gauss, he is certainly one of the greatest mathematicians to have ever lived.

[Lurker]

[snip]

I don't think mental illness and stupidity are that far spread apart.

[snip]


Perhaps you might consider clarifying this statement, Dr Forbin.

As you are no doubt aware, a large number of people who made big, positive contributions to the collective wisdom of us humans were afflicted by mental illness. To take just two 20th century examples, from widely different fields:

Kari Kairamo, who suffered from a bipolar disorder, was the CEO of Nokia. He laid the foundations for what became, in later years, the most valuable non-US brand, and the most successful Finnish company in a century.

Georg Cantor, who suffered from what today we would call depression, made seminal contributions to mathematics; while perhaps not quite in the same league as Gauss, he is certainly one of the greatest mathematicians to have ever lived.
I missed this comment by the good doctor... I would also wish that he might elaborate...

While I was deep in the mental illness that I suffered from, I was driven to earn a Masters and a PhD in computer science with straight A's. There are times when I look back and read the answers I wrote on exams or the papers I wrote and have trouble keeping up with an individual who was much more intelligent than I am.

While I would rather have the balanced life that is mine now, I think that the confusion between stupidity and mental illness is part of the prejudice and uninformed fear harbored by many who do not understand this difficult and complex subject.

[Gillianren]

Well.. having spent the majority of my life in a hell beyond the understanding of most here... except for Gillianren and one or two others who have shared my condition, To say that I was differently abled is like saying the arthritis suffer, crippled by their condition, is differently abled. We are in pain... we cry out for help...

Heh. I'm both mentally ill and an arthritis sufferer.

I'm bipolar. Like I said. It is more frequent in people with higher intelligence. I resent the implication that a) I'm making that up and b) I'm not really mentally ill because I'm clearly intelligent. I am both. I'm on my fourth try at meds in less than a year, aggravated by the fact that my current doctor, without going through any tests, has decided that my diagnosis is wrong and I'm really just depressed. I'm not up to explaining myself to you, Dr. Forbin; it's quite enough that I have to convince the state and federal governments that they should keep paying for my health insurance.

[Nicolas]

On the original topic I would like to add that while politics and the like *can* play a role in choosing astronauts, it certainly doesn't have to be the case.

Example:

The first Belgian astronaut, Dirk Frimout, was a Flemish male. For the second astronaut, candidates were Frank De Winne, again a Flemish male, and another one, a female from Wallony. It was quite clear from the start that she would be it, given the huge political (PC) advantage. However, Frank de Winne became the second Belgian astronaut (cosmonaut, Euronaut, whatever :)). Why? His flight was the first one of the Soyuz TMA (IIRC). They flew with highly experienced Russians, but wanted another primus aboard. Frank De Winne is an F-16 (test) pilot, had very high grades in Military school, some decorations on F-16 flying...in short, he could be put forward as "the best pilot" our country has to offer. Apart from his ISS science mission, he was also trained to fly the Soyuz TMA (partially, such as manual docking). That was rather unseen, a non-Russian in a pilot role. Now, a few years later, Frank De Winne is put forward to fly again into space. This goes against any predictions from political POV. While PC might make choosing him (again) less likely, it apparently hasn't stopped them as he is best fit for the job.

I am quite confident the same goes for people with a handicap, physical or mental problem. For the people directly involved, the questions are "is he completely able to perform normal and emergency flight actions" and "is he best fit for the job". Yes to both questions, up you go.

You talked about how children interact with people who have, say, a leg prothese. They can be very open about it indeed. I personally no longer have the openness of a young child, but I do have a strong interest in protheses. Last year I had some Univ. courses on prothese design (my speciality is man-machine interaction; protheses were a side-course). From a technical POV protheses keep on improving, but when you get the human in the loop, often simple, older models are preferred. They weigh less and require less (mental) effort to use. So they're preferred even though they have less functionality. The simple hand "claw" (no pirate hook, but the standard "claw" prothese) does not allow for fine things such as taking coins, but it is so light (so cheap) and so easy to control that it is a favourite everyday prothese. The same goes for leg protheses: you've got those with nerve control and everything, but many people prefer a simple one that has some well designed hinges so it does what they want it to do, even though the control is a bit more passive.

I don't know what's your opinion on leg protheses Dr Forbin. Have you tried different ones, and if so do you prefer simple models or complex (nerve controlled) ones? What would you prefer taking into space? No prothese, a simple one, or a complex one? I'm wondering whether all models are still functional in zero G, as I am quite sure some are uncontrollable (or not fully controllable) without gravity.

That makes me think about something else. Say you can only perform a mission with a complex prothese (doesn't matter for what part of the body). The inherent risk of the prothese failing during the mission would be an argument not to chose this person to go into space.

Of course,for the SpaceShipOne (Virgin Galactic) type of space tourism, this would be less of an issue due to the short duration. There, you'd only have to see whether the person (and his protheses) can perform the nominal and emergency mission aspects.


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I'm glad the previous misunderstandings are sorted out.