If certain humans had magical powers in the real world....

[Maha Vailo]

Suppose there were some human beings that had extraordinary powers - flying, superhuman strength, psionics, immunity to poison or extreme heat or cold, you name it. How would the presence of such humans affect the real world?

- Maha Vailo

[Dragon Star]

It would turn into an X-Men film version of reality.

[NEOWatcher]

It would turn into an X-Men film version of reality.
And just about any Sci-fi that has been dreamed up in the last century.

I suggest you do some browsing in the comic book section to see some of the possibilities. I would think that there is at least one episode close to any scenerio anyone on this board could think up.

[Maha Vailo]

Yeah, but those are comic books and I'm talking about real life. Surely the effects of having people with magical powers in the real world would be different somehow.

- Maha "magic man" Vailo

[Gillianren]

I'm not sure why. After all, comic books are written by humans imagining human reactions to things.

Now, there may be a reaction that we hadn't thought of, and certainly my own "special governmental agency peopled by superhumans for law enforcement" scenario seems rare, but it's probably less dramatic.

[Swift]

This may be off topic, but an interesting thought that some science fiction writer has brought up in an essay (can't remember who) is that magic (or superpowers) are undemocratic, unlike science.

With some effort and some education, just about anyone can become a scientist. Even if you don't do it for a living, you can participate and understand (look at all the amateur astronomers who make important discoveries). But generally, at least as it is described in most fiction, magic is an elite practice of the few, and is often a power you must inherit. A similar thing could be said about superpowers.

It also seems, at least in most books and movies, that given the power and elite status of magic or superpower users, that abuse of their powers for evil is a serious risk and one that about half of them succumb too. There are a few bad apples, but this doesn't seem to be a problem in science.

[Ronald Brak]

Well, I think rather than wearing spandex and beating up muggers, I think these people might actually attempt to make money from their magic abilities. Provided there is a progressive tax system (and some social welfare) then everyone can benefit they are benefiting from the big bucks someone makes from using their disintergration touch for digging railway tunnels. And think how cheap space travel would be if flying people could simpley carry stuff into orbit.

[Maha Vailo]

So, how much more technologically advanced would humanity be if there were certain humans who had magical/psionic/super powers and used their powers for various capitalistic purposes?

- Maha Vailo

[Donnie B.]

Maha, you should read Orson Scott Card's Tales of Alvin Maker series of fantasy novels. He describes a world where certain kinds of magic are real -- folk magic, like hexes and prescience. It's set in 18th-century North America. Quite interesting (though I'm only two books into it).

[Swift]

Larry Niven's two collections of short stories, "The Magic Goes Away" and "The Magic May Return" are interesting too, in that Niven is generally a pretty hard SF writer, and tries to put some logic and physics to magic, and to place it in the context of our world (though it is the ancient world).

[Doodler]

I'm afraid I cannot give you Doodler's version of these events, as it would likely violate several rules of the board concerning politics and religion.

Needless to say, I do not think it would be pretty.

[Maha Vailo]

I'm afraid I cannot give you Doodler's version of these events, as it would likely violate several rules of the board concerning politics and religion.

Needless to say, I do not think it would be pretty.

Can you PM me about it?

- Maha Vailo

[Ronald Brak]

So, how much more technologically advanced would humanity be if there were certain humans who had magical/psionic/super powers and used their powers for various capitalistic purposes?

Assume one person in a thousand has superpowers. Assume they can earn 100 times the average wage with them. So humanity could get about 10% more work done. If the effect kicked in at the start of the industrial revolution than we'd be about 50-100% richer than we are now. Some of this would be from having more advanced technology and some of this would come from simply haveing more capital. So basically they would be a decade or so ahead of us.

[Tog_]

There is a game called City of Herores which is based on comic book style super heroes. This game has a back story that goes back to pre World War II for some of the main characters. The rest of the game is set with the modern world in mind. Part of the game is the collecting of badges for learning about the history of the city. One part of the history covers the "Might for Right Act" where superheroes were prosecuted as draft dodgers for refusing to go to Vietnam. I thought that was nice twist to slip into the game.

There is also a pen and paper RPG from Palladium Books called Heroes Unlimited which has a section on heroes in the real world. Basically, it talks about how a superheroes are nothing more than vigilantes and that even when SPiderman drops a webfull of muggers on the police steps, there is nothing that can be used in a trial. Spidey can't testify as Spiderman, so the odds of getting a conviction are minimal at best.

Let's say that it's more like X-men than magic though. The supers are all mutants, as opposed to, say Harry Potter who had to study for years. I would equate the people with super powers to be sort of like the people we have now who are extremely intelligent. You have basically four types.
Those who put ther "gifts" to use for the betterment of mankind. in the fields of science or art.
Those who go the Criminal route. And why not, they are better than everyone else. Why work for a living?
Those who see themselves as being the balance for the criminals. These are the ones that join the police or go freelance.
And the people who do nothing but sit around and use their gifts in a totally selfish way. The little girl that can control fire makes the flames on a cadle turn into a dancer when she's depressed, but it never occurs to her to be a firefighter would be in the same class as the guy with a top 2% IQ that spends all day long writing stories no one will ever see because he sees himself as a freak.

Then you have the "let's kill him, he's different than us" cowd. that would see the ability to shoot shards of ice from your eyes as a threat to everything they hold dear.

The secret military projects that try to create the powers in people that are already loyal, or try to make people with the powers loyal enough to use in special operations.

The sceintists that see a person form a bubble around herself to protect from a sudden hail storm, and try to recreate that same effect, driving a tech advancement at a much faster rate than we currently have.

Security for airlines, and even grocerystores would need to be completely revamped. How do you stop a guy that can emit a ball of energy with enough force to destroy an airplane then flying away under his own power, from doing it? How do you stop the guy that can teleport from robbing your bank? How do keep the invisible kid out of the girls' shower in high school?

People that have these powers will probably see themselves as either freaks and hide it, or as super human and flaunt it.

People that don't will look at them with either fear, hatered (envy), or awe.

I think the "haves" and the "have nots" would end up working against each other far more often than they would join forces.

[Swift]

Interesting post Tog. Reminds me of the plot in The Incredibles, where the "supers" were being sued for personal injury from people they rescued and damage to property, and finally had to go into a Super-protection program.

[Kesh]

Yeah, but those are comic books and I'm talking about real life. Surely the effects of having people with magical powers in the real world would be different somehow.

- Maha "magic man" Vailo

Not much, in my mind. I've been toying with a short story series, based on the emergence of telepathy among humans in the near future.

Short term, I think there'd be a panic. People would be killed for assumed psychic powers, crimes would be blamed on "mind control," and religious dogma would lead to a lot of confusion among various societies (is it witchcraft, a miracle, or purely natural?).

Then, the governments would have to get involved. Laws would be crafted regarding the use of such powers. In the extreme, we could see detention camps for suspected "psychic criminals." People may be required to be tested and licensed for the use of psychic abilities (a la the Mutant Registration Act from X-Men). Government bodies would be formed for the capture and detention of psychic criminals (and those who refused to register). Lawsuits would abound, from simple discrimination to the Constitutionality of psychic-specific laws.

Some countries could literally collapse from the social in-fighting, political inability to cope or civil war. Others may lead crusades against their neighbors, either to 'cleanse' the psychics from their lands, or to free the psychics from 'oppression' at the hands of non-psychics.

In the end, I'm not sure how it would turn out. The transition would be very, very ugly no matter what.

[Swift]

Kesh, sounds a little like the psychic licensing and control in Babylon 5. And I agree with you about what would probably happen.

[PhantomWolf]

Well a friend and I built our own RPG system and universe where this had been tackled. The Game was set during a second war where Mutants were just arriving on the scene. Basically they were treated with fear and distrust by most people. Even the military was wary of them, and rumours of special mutant strike forces that were basically sent in on suicide missions, were pretty rife amongst the ranks. During the First War, which I have written a number of short shorties about, the Talents had been appearing, and they had been treated virtually the same way, except that by the end of the First War they had proven themselves so effective and loyal to the Alliance that people were accepting them as heroes rather then freaks. One of the stories deals with how a Sqaudron Commander deals with having a Talent placed in his unit, and how he goes from being highly anti of having a person in his team that could be manipulating his thoughts to eventual acceptance as the Talent's skills become apparent and help the team do things and avoid situations they couldn't have without her.

[davidlpf]

well if i had super powers they would be some very nervous people. Then I would have to decide to turn to the darkside or not.

[Maha Vailo]

I'm seeing some very interesting ideas here. Now I'm curious as to whether there is a historic precedent that people are basing their ideas as to people's reactions to magic/super powers on. Is there anything that comes close?

- Maha Vailo

[Ronald Brak]

Well I have superpowers and everybody loves me.

Mobile phone = telepathy
Car jack = great strength
Airplane ticket = ability to fly

Perhaps because these powers were introduced gradually people didn't freak out.

[Van Rijn]

Well I have superpowers and everybody loves me.

Mobile phone = telepathy
Car jack = great strength
Airplane ticket = ability to fly

Perhaps because these powers were introduced gradually people didn't freak out.

I was going to say the same thing. All those are due to the most powerful psychic powers possible: Intelligence and Creativity.

[Maha Vailo]

But what if magic/psionics/super powers had always been there, had existed since ancient times? How might society have developed differently?

- Maha Vailo

[Van Rijn]

I'm seeing some very interesting ideas here. Now I'm curious as to whether there is a historic precedent that people are basing their ideas as to people's reactions to magic/super powers on. Is there anything that comes close?

- Maha Vailo

I'd say yes - for instance, Archimedes, Newton, Einsten, Turing, Manhatton Project scientists, and the many scientists, engineers and other people that applied their "power" to various problems. Some we remember fondly, some not, but we remember many of the most "powerful" among them.

[Ronald Brak]

I'd say yes - for instance, Archimedes, Newton, Einsten, Turing, Manhatton Project scientists, and the many scientists, engineers and other people that applied their "power" to various problems. Some we remember fondly, some not, but we remember many of the most "powerful" among them.

True, but their ideas had to be applied by others before they could be used to "beat people up." If someone is inately able to beat people up without being beat up himself, then he is going to beat people up and make himself king. The nobility or tribal leaders would have superpowers and normal people would be their cattle - same as in real history actually. Some people with superpowers might band together to make a superpowered empire, but many would rather live as small kings where they are ther most powerful in their kingdom and they would perhaps pay tribute to the more organized superpowered groups.

Throughout history royalty has acted like spoiled children, I see no reason for superpowered royalty to act any differently.

[Lord Jubjub]

I just happen to be watching the show "Heroes". Interesting take on how people are reacting when they discover their paranormal powers. Some do the routine of doing good while hiding their identity, others are competely baffled by their abilities.

I may have to watch this show for bit.

[Van Rijn]

True, but their ideas had to be applied by others before they could be used to "beat people up."


Intelligent military officers that can think of new strategies and tactics do beat people up. And you have cases like Turing and Bletchley Park, which didn't help the Germans.


If someone is inately able to beat people up without being beat up himself, then he is going to beat people up and make himself king.


Up to a point. How much tougher is this superbeing than others? One man is still just one man. A somewhat tougher, stronger human will have an advantage, but that's it.

[Van Rijn]

But what if magic/psionics/super powers had always been there, had existed since ancient times? How might society have developed differently?

- Maha Vailo

I think you would have to define the powers. For instance, does telepathy allow you to contact only other telepaths? If so, how common are they? What distance does it work at? What are the limitations? Or, does it allow a telepath to read the mind of anybody, in detail? And so on.

[Donnie B.]

I was going to say the same thing. All those are due to the most powerful psychic powers possible: Intelligence and Creativity.Sure, but do you get to wear a spandex suit and a cape? ;)

[Lonewulf]

Sure, but do you get to wear a spandex suit and a cape? ;)

I never got the spandex suit and cape bit. It's the perfect way to make a target of yourself, especially when you don primary targets.

It's like saying, "I'M SO TOUGH COME GET ME LOL"

Me, I'd say, "I'm pretty tough, but I'm still going to use camoflauge and sneak up on 'em from behind."

See, my strength is my toughness, but I have another deadly weapon if I get good at sneaking up on people. So then, I have two strengths: Surprise, and my toughness. I rock.

[Tog_]

I never got the spandex suit and cape bit. It's the perfect way to make a target of yourself, especially when you don primary targets.

It's like saying, "I'M SO TOUGH COME GET ME LOL"

Me, I'd say, "I'm pretty tough, but I'm still going to use camoflauge and sneak up on 'em from behind."

See, my strength is my toughness, but I have another deadly weapon if I get good at sneaking up on people. So then, I have two strengths: Surprise, and my toughness. I rock.

After a while though, your reputation builds and you won't need to actually fight most of the time. The bad guys see the outfit and think, "oh no... It's him". You won't get that sort of fear from a hoodie and jeans.;)

[Lonewulf]

After a while though, your reputation builds and you won't need to actually fight most of the time. The bad guys see the outfit and think, "oh no... It's him". You won't get that sort of fear from a hoodie and jeans.;)

Depends on how good you are at sneaking up on them.

Going, "Boo" in their ear when they know that you're a tough guy can be a lot scarier, especially since they didn't have the opportunity to prepare.

But then, I personally think that most superhero fiction negates logic altogether. As evidence, I point you to http://www.superdickery.com/

[Swift]

Sure, but do you get to wear a spandex suit and a cape? ;)
Don't forget what Enda Mode said...
Bob: Yeah. Something classic - like Dynaguy. Oh, he had a great look! Oh, the cape and the boots...
Edna: [throws a wadded ball of paper at Bob's head] No capes!
Bob: Isn't that my decision?
Edna: Do you remember Thunderhead? Tall, storm powers? Nice man, good with kids.
Bob: Listen, E...
Edna: November 15th of '58! All was well, another day saved, when? his cape snagged on a missile fin!
Bob: Thunderhead was not the brightest bulb...
Edna: Stratogale! April 23rd, '57! Cape caught in a jet turbine!
Bob: E, you can't generalize about these things...
Edna: Metaman, express elevator! Dynaguy, snag on takeoff! Splashdown, sucked into a vortex!
[shouts]
Edna: No capes!

[Maha Vailo]

I think you would have to define the powers. For instance, does telepathy allow you to contact only other telepaths? If so, how common are they? What distance does it work at? What are the limitations? Or, does it allow a telepath to read the mind of anybody, in detail? And so on.

I'm imagining a scenario like 3rd Edition D&D. There are two spells that deal with telepathy-like powers, namely "detect thoughts" and 'suggestion". Both are low-level spells (2nd-3rd level) that can be used by sorcerors, wizards, and bards. (Psionics-useres have similar abilites.) The former spell reads the surface thoughts of any and all creatures in a 60' cone in front of the caster, and can be used for 1 minute/level of the caster. The thoughts of others can be read with great precision and detail with this spell, although it takes about 20 seconds for the caster to do so. It can be blocked by a sufficient thickness of stone, earth, or metal, much like radiation in the real world. Also, people can will themselves into not having their thoughts read, although this is not always successful. The material component is very easy to find (a copper piece).

A "suggestion" spell, OTOH, affects 1 creature within 25' + 5'/2 levels of the caster, and causes said creature to follow any short order that is reasonably worded and not suicidal. This effect lasts for 1 hour/caster level or until completed, and requires a snake's tongue to cast, so it isn't going to be cast nearly as often as "detect thoughts".

I'll touch on the differences between innate spellcasters (sorcerors, psionics-users) and learned spellcasters (wizards, clerics, druids, bards) in a later post. (Yes, Virginia, there are no muggles in D&D!) For now, I want you folks to talk about how these two telepathy-like spells alone would influence the real world if they worked exactly as described.

- Maha Vailo

[Gerrsun]

I'm imagining a scenario like 3rd Edition D&D. There are two spells that deal with telepathy-like powers, namely "detect thoughts" and 'suggestion". Both are low-level spells (2nd-3rd level) that can be used by sorcerors, wizards, and bards. (Psionics-useres have similar abilites.) The former spell reads the surface thoughts of any and all creatures in a 60' cone in front of the caster, and can be used for 1 minute/level of the caster. The thoughts of others can be read with great precision and detail with this spell, although it takes about 20 seconds for the caster to do so. It can be blocked by a sufficient thickness of stone, earth, or metal, much like radiation in the real world. Also, people can will themselves into not having their thoughts read, although this is not always successful. The material component is very easy to find (a copper piece).

A "suggestion" spell, OTOH, affects 1 creature within 25' + 5'/2 levels of the caster, and causes said creature to follow any short order that is reasonably worded and not suicidal. This effect lasts for 1 hour/caster level or until completed, and requires a snake's tongue to cast, so it isn't going to be cast nearly as often as "detect thoughts".

I'll touch on the differences between innate spellcasters (sorcerors, psionics-users) and learned spellcasters (wizards, clerics, druids, bards) in a later post. (Yes, Virginia, there are no muggles in D&D!) For now, I want you folks to talk about how these two telepathy-like spells alone would influence the real world if they worked exactly as described.

- Maha Vailo


I suspect both would be made illegal. It would be illegal to influence others through the use of a suggestion spell. 'Suggesting' someone into signing a contract or acting a certain way would likely be made a felony and you'd have your spellbook taken away. :)


Detect thoughts also for the reason that a persons thoughts would be considered private and detecting said thoughts is an invasion of privacy similar to invading someones homes and looking at all their pictures and photo albums.

That being said, those individuals who HAD these powers would probably find work in government organizations, doing EXACTLY that. No worries for torture if someone can read your thoughts and pluck out any plots or plans.

Frankly though, we already HAVE 'Suggestion' without any magical precepts. If we have whole groups of people who will kill themselves or others, ala terrorists, Jim Jones, Nazi's, etc....there doesnt need to be any magical underpinnings, it happens now.

[Maha Vailo]

Bear in mind, Gerrsun, that these spells and many others have been around since the dawn of time in the D&D world. I think we wouldn't make any spells illegal, just codify rules as to when, where, and how one is allowed to use it. For example a "suggestion" spell could perhaps be legally used to rescue someone whose life was in danger, e. g. who was about to commit suicide.

Just exactly what kinds of spells/powers do you think would be legal in this day and age, assuming spells and magic and psioinc powers had existed for as long as there has been civilization?

- Maha Vailo