Best Sci-Fi/Fantasy TV series Round 3 (final)

[Lord Jubjub]

Here is the round you have all been waiting for (more or less). :)

One vote apiece. Consider all that went into the show: plot, characters, effects, premise, story arcs and all that. Vote for the Best Show on that list.

[Lord Jubjub]

Babylon 5. It had better and more realistic interpersonal conflict than Star Trek and it managed to avoid destroying gods on a regular basis.

Futurama was a good series but I'm not as enthusiastic about its low-brow humor. Firefly simply didn't last long enough to generate a lot of passion.

[ciderman]

A real tough choice, but considering the all (effects, plot, story arcs, interpersonal relationships), I find myself agreeing. B5.

[The Supreme Canuck]

My vote is for Firefly. Without a doubt.

[Van Rijn]

I picked B5, but I put Star Trek right up there with it.

[PhantomWolf]

Given the depth of stories, the personalities, acting and plots, I'd say that really only B5 and Firefly could be contenders. Futurama was good, but the characters rarely developed further than they started. Neither Stark Trek really had that wonderful plots and usually relied on pseudoscience claptrap to solve the plot. Having only about as much of B5 as I did Firefly, I never really got into it, so though I feel it could have been even greater had it survived it's first seires and had a chance to mature, I have to put on my Browncoat and go with the crew of Serenity. A full cast of characters who all had their own quickiness. None being the perfect black and white that many TV and films portray their heroes in, but rather subtle shades of grey, some darker (Janye), some lighter (Book, Simon, Kaylee), some lost (Mal) and some just holding on for the ride as best they could (Wash.) The personal interaction made this crew a real family, not just a bunch of people thrown together. That and they weren't out there fighting to save the galaxy. They were just fighting to live through the next day with enough to buy food and fuel and make the next job. It was a gritty and real show that so often is missed out on by the clean and sterile futures that ST and B5 protray all too often.

From the effects and camera work side. Again the very subtle work wioth wide shots, unbroken shots, lighting and camera angles is, IMO, unequaled in a Sci-Fi series. Joss threw away the "how to" manual and rewrote it, creating an atmosphere that drew you onto the ship and made it real. The set and lighting made Serenity a real starship, unlike those flashing light wooden things seen in the likes of ST, SG1 and even the new BSG. The cast and crew weren't afraid to go places no-one had gone before, and it's really a shame that the blinkered TV executives at FOX couldn't see far enough beyond their own little play book to have followed.

[Donnie B.]

I think my choice is pretty obvious to anybody who's even passingly familiar with my posts to this forum.

Mal: "Mercy is the mark of a great man." (Stab) "Guess I'm just a good man." (Stab) "Well, I'm all right."

PW pretty much nailed the reasons why Firefly stands head and shoulders above all other SF series. And I respectfully disagree with Lord Jubjub -- Firefly has quite possibly the most passionate fan base of all, especially given its relative size. What's more, it's an unusually varied and inclusive fandom, encompassing a wide range of ages, backgrounds, and interests. Even more telling, it appeals to both genders in near-equal numbers. That may be unique in all of SF.

[Lord Jubjub]

I'll give you those arguments.

But I tend to watch a TV series consistently after they've done a seasonal cycle. I watched a little bit of Firefly while it was new, bit I tend never to really start feeling a great attachment until I've seen a couple of seasons at least a couple of times each. Firefly was on and off the air so swiftly, that I never had time to fully find a commitment.

I'm sorry, but longevity of the storyline is a factor for me. What I saw was interesting, but not enough to put it over B5.

[Van Rijn]

PW pretty much nailed the reasons why Firefly stands head and shoulders above all other SF series.

Heh. I'll respectfully disagree. In my opinion, Firefly doesn't begin to cover the scope of Babylon 5. As for Star Trek, sure it had pseudoscience - and so does Firefly (as well as all other series). But it did science fiction when we were used to things like Lost in Space or Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea.

[Josh]

Star Trek: TNG!! To me it was more than just Sci-Fi .. it was a model of a better future. I think it (and TOS) explored the mechinations and current affairs of Earth a lot better than most series. It was a lesson and inspiration.

Futurama is funny as all hell though!

[Abelian Grape]

Voted for Firefly. B5 a close second. I wish I could vote for my entire family (I do live not too far from Chicago :) because we became instant fans, though unfortunately via DVD after the show was off the air -- much too soon. Amazing how the really original and innovative shows are not much appreciated by the TV moguls. We were early in line for Serenity. Futurama would have been a distant third. ST got better (IMHO) in the later incarnations. Those would have been better competition.

[Gillianren]

Firefly. I, too, missed it in its intial airing and saw Serenity first, but the plots were complex and layered, the costumes excellent (Gods, I want to dress like Inara, even though I'd look a bit silly), the special effects masterful yet understated, and the sets perfect and amazingly detailed. Most shows take a couple of seasons to build up to the level of skill that Firefly had only a couple of episodes in.

[JAYNE COBB]

Had to put in my props for Mal & crew, It was the only SF show to draw me in totally(sorry if this all sounds wierd) I didn't get to see it when it was aired (stupid job!:evil: ) but on one hand am glad, I didn't have to watch out of order shows because the Moguls at F*X didn't care. After the first EP I watched 2 whole discs before stopping. DS9 would be my 2nd but it's not there anyway.

[ToSeek]

It's one of the fundamental influences in my life - I can't not vote for the original Star Trek. Yes, later shows surpassed it in overall quality, but they had TOS to build on and to pave the way - I don't think any of them would have been nearly as successful (if they'd even made it on the air at all) if it hadn't gone first.

[R.A.F.]

It's one of the fundamental influences in my life - I can't not vote for the original Star Trek.

Same here...I can't believe that the 2 of us are the only ones who voted for it (so far)...sigh...

[Jim]

Firefly was extremely good and fun to watch. I enjoyed the stories and the characters.

However, at less than one season (a crime that hopefully is being punished by The Three Sisters even now), it didn't have the chance to prove itself - or to fail.

It probably would have succeeded. I really enjoyed Buffy, and it got better as it progressed. No reason to think Joss couldn't have done the same with Firefly.

Still, I have to go with B5. It did last more than one season and, while it dropped off a bit toward the end, the quality was consistently extremely good... stories, plot arc, characters, character development, performances, writing, sfx.

Gotta go with B5.

[peter eldergill]

I had to go with B5. Firefly was a very close second, but the very short run did not allow the series itself to be as good as B5 IMHO

I could also choose Star trek (TOS) 'cause it was so groundbreaking, but I ask myself...what would I watch given the choice? B5 followed closely by Firefly

Pete

Pete

[Trantor]

Tough choice between The original Star Trek and Next Generation. I went with Next Generation because it's production quality was higher and it had seven seasons of amazingly high ratings. Many of their episodes surpassed 20 million viewers, and were rarely under 15 million viewers. It's ratings actually increased as the seasons progressed, unlike other sci-fi productions where ratings start high and then decline as the show progresses. It ended on a high note, with an excellent two part episode that got very good reviews.

I've recently watched the whole Next Generation Series, and in my opinion, it is still the finest sci-fi series ever made. It is a vision of hope for the future.

[peteshimmon]

Fix! Should have been a runoff of the top ten!
Ah well.. Star Trek original for showing the
way! Have a biog of Mr Rodenberry, he was
quite a hustler:)

[Van Rijn]

Same here...I can't believe that the 2 of us are the only ones who voted for it (so far)...sigh...

I really didn't like having to vote for just one, but it was pretty much 50/50 between Star Trek and B5 for me. I went with B5 because I thought Star Trek would get more support anyway. Heh.

When it comes down to it, there is no real way I can say one particular show is, in my opinion, the best. Top ten best, maybe.

[Josh]

It's one of the fundamental influences in my life - I can't not vote for the original Star Trek. Yes, later shows surpassed it in overall quality, but they had TOS to build on and to pave the way - I don't think any of them would have been nearly as successful (if they'd even made it on the air at all) if it hadn't gone first.

Too true ToSeek! Very fair point. I think TNG as a series was a far better and enjoyable production and I much preferred their diplomacy over TOS's cowboy antics ... but yes, the Star Trek:TNG universe (and indeed all other sci-fi series) were heavily dependent on the success and ingenuity of Star Trek: TOS

[atigdng]

Without a shadow of a doubt, Firefly~!

Your body can be drained of blood in 8.6 seconds with adequate vacuuming systems...

...Also, I can kill you with my brain.

[kaneman]

Firefly. I love BSG, but FF is second to none.

[Josh]

I hadn't even heard of Firefly until it was posted in these polls.

[ciderman]

I'd heard of it, but I've yet to see any.
Looking at the testimonials I think I ought to see it ASAP!!!
& perhaps I would have voted differently if I had seen it..
I'm shocked TOS is doing so poorly though, it was my 2nd choice from the above list (which for me did not include FF of course).

[PhantomWolf]

I hadn't even heard of Firefly until it was posted in these polls.

I'd heard of it, but I've yet to see any.

Get there to a DVD store now. :P

[RMMacFru]

Much as I love the OS for Trek, it's got to be Firefly. If you want to get a glimpse via your local video store, check out the movie Serenity.

[Josh]

Serenity was a HORRIBLE movie!

[The Supreme Canuck]

Agh! Right to the heart! I'll admit it wasn't as good as the show, but I enjoyed it. Maybe you need to see the show to really get the movie.

[Josh]

Which came first?

[The Supreme Canuck]

The series.

[Josh]

How very Star Trek-esque. I'll give the series a go, but I could only stomach a little over three quarters of the movie. It was just that bad.

[Van Rijn]

How very Star Trek-esque. I've give the series a go, but I could only stomach a little over three quarters of the movie. It was just that bad.

If you have a rental service, give it a shot, but if you didn't like the movie, I doubt you'll like the series. Apparently you liked the movie even less than I did (I watched it through, I just wasn't impressed with it) and I thought it was a bit better than the two and a fraction episodes I watched.

[Gillianren]

I saw the movie first, and I loved it. I'm going with "personal taste," here. Everyone's taste is different. Some people's taste is just wrong.

[Josh]

Heh. And how does it feel to have the wrong taste Gillian? :p

[Van Rijn]

I saw the movie first, and I loved it. I'm going with "personal taste," here. Everyone's taste is different. Some people's taste is just wrong.

. . . says the person who doesn't like LOTR. :)

[ToSeek]

How very Star Trek-esque. I've give the series a go, but I could only stomach a little over three quarters of the movie. It was just that bad.

I really liked the series but was disappointed with the movie - it had so much plot that it didn't take time to deal with the characters, which is one of the strengths of the series. I'd take any of a half-dozen episodes of Firefly over Serenity.

[The Supreme Canuck]

ToSeek: My sentiments exactly.

[PhantomWolf]

I have to agree. I like Serenity (The movie) because I already know the characters and so can just fall into the plot, but I can understand that someone coming in cold could have a lot of trouble getting an idea of it all.

[Trantor]

I watched the first four Firefly episodes and could never really get into it, so I stopped watching it. Later when the movie came out, a friend of mine commented on how great the movie was and that I should give it a shot. I did, and it was ok, but certainly nothing special.

As for B5, it was a decent show. I watched about half of the first season before I lost interest. At the time, I considered it to be a bit too similar in concept to Deep Space 9, which I was watching at the time.

I think Firefly and B5 were developed in response to the success of Next Generation and later, Deep Space 9. Perhaps similar in the way that BSG was made in response to the success of Star Wars. Deep Space 9 was also an excellent production that was a great success. In fact, it is second to Next Generation in terms of viewer numbers for a sci-fi series. The main difference was that while Next Generation's viewer numbers curb upward, Deep Space 9 lost ratings as it progressed.

I would also like to add, that my favorite all-time Trek Bad Guy, was from DS9 - Gul Dukat. It was a pleasure to see him in action!!!!

[Gillianren]

. . . says the person who doesn't like LOTR. :)

Yeah, I get that a lot. But no, that wasn't intended to refer to any of these shows. I'm thinking more the kind of person who got Joan of Arcadia replaced with that stupid "The Sixth Sense with a girl" show.

[Van Rijn]

Yeah, I get that a lot. But no, that wasn't intended to refer to any of these shows. I'm thinking more the kind of person who got Joan of Arcadia replaced with that stupid "The Sixth Sense with a girl" show.

Heh. I would have never said it, except that you handed me the perfect straight line. It's all subjective. I don't get annoyed unless someone says "I like X, therefore everyone should."

What's the "Sixth Sense with a girl" show's name? Medium? Or are you thinking of something else? I'm not familiar with Joan of Arcadia.

[Lord Jubjub]

I watched the first four Firefly episodes and could never really get into it, so I stopped watching it. Later when the movie came out, a friend of mine commented on how great the movie was and that I should give it a shot. I did, and it was ok, but certainly nothing special.

As for B5, it was a decent show. I watched about half of the first season before I lost interest. At the time, I considered it to be a bit too similar in concept to Deep Space 9, which I was watching at the time.

That's because DS9 began tracking Babylon 5. B5 was developed and on the air before DS9.

[Van Rijn]

As for B5, it was a decent show. I watched about half of the first season before I lost interest. At the time, I considered it to be a bit too similar in concept to Deep Space 9, which I was watching at the time.


B5 builds up as you go along. There are a lot of introductions and questions raised in the first season. Things don't get really rolling until the second season, and in my opinion the third and fourth seasons are the best of the series. I liked DS9, but it is a very different show. And while there are continuing themes in DS9, it doesn't have the pervasive story arc like B5.

[Gillianren]

What's the "Sixth Sense with a girl" show's name? Medium? Or are you thinking of something else? I'm not familiar with Joan of Arcadia.

It's called something along the lines of The Ghost Whisperer and stars Jennifer Love Hewitt and is very bad. It's on CBS on Friday, which is when my beloved Joan was on. Joan had very good ratings, but not in the demographic CBS was trying to attract, so they cancelled it. (Our Heroine, Joan, sees and talks to God, who is any one of at least a dozen people. God asks her to do things and hilarity ensues.)

And I do think some people's taste is just demonstrably bad, notably my boyfriend, who prefers any given Chevy Chase movie to, say, Hero.

[Jim]

I really liked Joan. Considering the premise, it was actually rather believable. The characters reacted as you think they should, and most of them were flawed in some way. That is, they were real.

Unfortunately, I'm part of the demographic the networks don't want.

Ghost Whisperer isn't bad, but it's not as good as Joan. Besides, it plays opposite Dr. Who.

[SeanF]

That's because DS9 began tracking Babylon 5. B5 was developed and on the air before DS9.
Not true. JMS had pitched B5 to Paramount well before DS9 came out, but DS9 premiered a month before the airing of B5's pilot movie ("The Gathering"), and a full year before the first episode of B5 the series proper.

[Lord Jubjub]

True, but the war theme in DS9 didn't start to appear until its third and fourth seasons. I've always felt the similarities between the story lines was due to DS9 taking notes on B5.

Not that I think less of DS9 for doing so. Star Trek had gotten so utopic by that time that I had really lost interest.

[Mellow]

No real critisism here, but I am finding this last poll to be unsatisfying, can't put my finger on why. I mean, has Firefly really been that special? I'm not trying to start a fight, honest, I like Firefly a lot but it just feels good rather than great.

[parallaxicality]

For me, it was how the final list panned out. A lot of my favourite shows (Doctor Who, the new BSG, DS9) didn't make the cut. I love TNG, but I can't see it as separate from TOS or DS9 anymore. I never really liked the original Star Trek, and Babylon 5 was one of the biggest viewing disappointments I have ever experienced. Futurama will always be a poor second cousin to The Simpsons, so Firefly was it for me.

[V-GER]

TNG for me, no contest.

[Trantor]

B5 builds up as you go along. There are a lot of introductions and questions raised in the first season. Things don't get really rolling until the second season, and in my opinion the third and fourth seasons are the best of the series. I liked DS9, but it is a very different show. And while there are continuing themes in DS9, it doesn't have the pervasive story arc like B5.

I finished watching the entire TNG series a few weeks ago. I've been renting episodes from Netflix. Perhaps I will give B5 another try.

I thought the best of TNG and DS9 came after their third seasons as well.

[parallaxicality]

B5 builds up as you go along. There are a lot of introductions and questions raised in the first season. Things don't get really rolling until the second season, and in my opinion the third and fourth seasons are the best of the series. I liked DS9, but it is a very different show. And while there are continuing themes in DS9, it doesn't have the pervasive story arc like B5.

Odd, because I didn't really feel that B5's story held together very much. The sudden shift from the Shadow War to Morgan Clark and the narrowing of the focus to Earth really turned me off. I couldn't believe that this was planned from the start, but then I suppose I had different expectations. JMS seems to have a different attitude toward "space opera" than Star Trek, and one which I can't agree with. For him, Earth is all. Looking at the series's grand scheme, I think JMS must have seen it as a history of Earth and its place in the new cosmos. Humans and human affairs were given far too much emphasis in the story arc. The opening narration for the first season actually made a distinction between "humans and aliens" which I found grating. I wanted to see more of Mimbar, to see more of the Narns. Sure, Star Trek is pretty human-centric too, but the focus was always outward, to the other species, and to the Federation, rather than inward to Earth. I liked that cosmopolitan element of the Trek universe, and I really didn't get it from B5.

[Alasdhair]

Odd, because I didn't really feel that B5's story held together very much. The sudden shift from the Shadow War to Morgan Clark and the narrowing of the focus to Earth really turned me off. I couldn't believe that this was planned from the start, but then I suppose I had different expectations.


That was supposed to be spread over five seasons, but trouble wi' t'networks meant that JMS had to compress the events planned for the fifth season into the fourth. Of course, then it transpired that there would be a fifth season after all, making what was produced somewhat disjointed and anti-climactic. (Although I did enjoy the arc with G'Kar becoming the Narn Messiah, much to his disgruntlement.)

[Doodler]

Had to go Babylon 5. Serenity/Firefly had great potential, but it wasn't able to go anywhere with it. One thing I liked about B5 is that it made very clear that humans weren't the best out there, likely would never be, and have as an extraordinary capacity to fail as we do to overcome.

I also liked the lack of deus ex machina, except for some of the weirdness with the Lorien and the First Ones, when you had a rough day, there was no magic reset button. You went to your quarters with a massive headache and carried the scars with you.

[Van Rijn]

Odd, because I didn't really feel that B5's story held together very much. The sudden shift from the Shadow War to Morgan Clark and the narrowing of the focus to Earth really turned me off. I couldn't believe that this was planned from the start, but then I suppose I had different expectations.


Just a quick spoiler warning (I hope most people that want to see B5 have, but ...)




Morgan Clark's actions were direct fallout from the Shadow War. Actually, the state of the galaxy and most of the events in the series were due to or heavily affected by current or earlier events in the Shadow war: The telepaths, the technomages (which, while not stated in the series, were the Shadow's answer to telepaths), the Narn/Centauri war, the current state of the Minbari, and so on. Clark was a tool of the Shadows. When the Shadows disappeared, taking their support with them, Clark panicked. I thought the concept of fallout from the power vacuum left behind from the First Ones leaving was very well done.


JMS seems to have a different attitude toward "space opera" than Star Trek, and one which I can't agree with. For him, Earth is all. Looking at the series's grand scheme, I think JMS must have seen it as a history of Earth and its place in the new cosmos. Humans and human affairs were given far too much emphasis in the story arc.


We'll just have to disagree there. My impression was that humans had shown one important ability, due to our being a young technological race: Some of us (not all!) could build communities from different cultures. Most of the alien civilizations were relatively old and monolithic and had forgotten how to deal with other cultures. But the abilities of the different species were vital to end the Shadow war. I certainly didn't have the impression that humans were protrayed as being all that special among the species - if anything, we were one of the most backwards species in local space. And, if it hadn't been for the interspecies cooperation, humans would have become extinct.

[ToSeek]

Just a quick spoiler warning (I hope most people that want to see B5 have, but ...)




Morgan Clark's actions were direct fallout from the Shadow War. Actually, the state of the galaxy and most of the events in the series were due to or heavily affected by current or earlier events in the Shadow war: The telepaths, the technomages (which, while not stated in the series, were the Shadow's answer to telepaths), the Narn/Centauri war, the current state of the Minbari, and so on. Clark was a tool of the Shadows. When the Shadows disappeared, taking their support with them, Clark panicked. I thought the concept of fallout from the power vacuum left behind from the First Ones leaving was very well done.

My wife - a huge B5 fan - points out that in the triple cliffhanger that ends Season One, the Shadows are behind all three plot threads.

[Charly]

My wife - a huge B5 fan - points out that in the triple cliffhanger that ends Season One, the Shadows are behind all three plot threads.

That was the episode that sold it to me.
After sitting through the whole of the first series, and not being quite sure, this episode took all of the plot strands in the whole if the 1st series and threw them at you.

There were 5 cliffhangers - not 3 (spoiler free):

Chrysalis
Battle of the Line
Narns being attacked
Presidential attack
Garibaldi looking the wrong way

I would seriously advise anyone who gave up after season 1, to give it another go.

[elgarak]

My wife - a huge B5 fan - points out that in the triple cliffhanger that ends Season One, the Shadows are behind all three plot threads.

For me, that was the BIG problem of Babylon 5. There were numerous hints about the story arc and where the story was going sprinkled throughout the first and second season. It was pretty clear from early on where there were going. That killed any surprises. I only waited (for the most part) for the resolve.

Another thing was that Strazcynski was glued slavishly to his story arc. There was no flexibility, and no development in the last few seasons, where the Star Trek series always took off. Besides, all Star Trek series did episodes during the later half of their run that surprised me in one way or another. This suprise potential was sorely lacking in B5, and killed the show for me.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, then. Looks like the winner is Firefly...

[Donnie B.]

Well, then. Looks like the winner is Firefly...:)

I always knew my fellow BAUTers were a clever and discerning bunch.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Hey, got my vote. ;)

[Jim]

No show received a majority of the votes. I say we follow the Louisiana system and hold a runoff between the top two. (Yeah, guess which one got my vote.)

[Doodler]

That's because DS9 began tracking Babylon 5. B5 was developed and on the air before DS9.

B5 was developed first, JMS even pitched it to Paramount before DS9 was a twinkle in the eye of the Star Trek team. Amazingly, after this meeting, Paramount managed to get DS9 developed and launched before B5 launched its pilot because they didn't have to shop around for a network like JMS did.

This is something that was a major thorn in the butt for a LOT of B5 fans, the amount of coincidental parallellism in some plot themes that would appear in Star Trek after B5. The character Odo was a particular snit, because the treatment pitched to Paramount for B5 had the shapeshifting assassin in the plot.

One of the reasons for Majel Barrett's guest appearance as a wife of the deceased Centauri Emperor was a move to try burying hatchets between the series fanbases. It was NOT pretty for the longest time.

Add: Per Wiki, Paramount did not begin filming until after The Gathering filming wrapped, but the first episode of DS9 was aired a month before The Gathering, and completed airing of its first season before PTEN picked up the first season of B5. Apparently as a part of the pitch to Paramount, a copy of the "bible" for B5 was included.

No formal charges of plagarism were ever filed, but even a stuffy nose can smell a rat. Particularly when there's two of them on the scale of Berman and Braga.

[V-GER]

Indeed, both series' involved a space station, what are the odds?!

[Doodler]

Indeed, both series' involved a space station, what are the odds?!

Given the timing, probability has nothing to do with it.

[Launch window]

2 great shows at the top !