Daylight Savings Time ends tonight; will be extended in 2007

[Cylinder]

Clocks fall back, but daylight-saving time getting longer (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/26/time.change.ap/index.html)

Most Americans will get a chance at an extra hour of sleep this weekend, as the clocks fall back to standard time.

It's the last time this will happen in October.

Thanks to a law passed last year, daylight-saving time will start earlier and end later beginning in 2007. It will last from the second Sunday in March to the first Sunday in November.

...

The official change occurs at 2 a.m. Sunday, though most folks will make the change before going to bed Saturday night.

Some states and territories don't observe daylight-saving time and won't have to worry about changing their clocks. Those are Arizona, Hawaii, Puerto Rico, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, Guam and the Northern Marianas.

[crosscountry]

I'm happy about the changes in 2007. plus it helps with energy consumption.

[Trebuchet]

Nuts. Now I get to go to work in the dark AND come home in the dark.

[Moose]

Yeah, that's one of the biggest disadvantages of living in the North. In december-january, you can go through an entire work-week without ever seeing the sun (especially if you're a cube-farmer.)

It's nice to have 4am-11pm sunlight in June, though. Not sure it entirely makes up for January, but it's still nice to have long sunny evenings.

[Lianachan]

Nuts. Now I get to go to work in the dark AND come home in the dark.

My kids have to go to and from school in the dark (and I to work).

[mickal555]

Bah, daylight saving...

Glad we don't have it here

[Pleiades]

Some of us get an extra hour of work (9 hours tonight instead 8) when Standard time rolls around, up the upside is in April when I get 8 hours of pay for 7 hours of work. :dance:

[Van Rijn]

I hate the temporal anomalies: The sun in the wrong location in the sky per the clock, the TV "skip" at the time of the temporal shift and even, on BAUT, certain posts appearing in the future (I saw a few tonight!).

We were not meant to tamper with time! Leave it alone, I say!

[crosscountry]

the truth is time doesn't change, only us.

[Roy Batty]

Emergency temporal shift!:)

[Cugel]

The funny thing about DST is that it has never been proven to save anything at all. However, it does cause a small but statistically significant increase in traffic accidents twice a year. Probably because for commuters light conditions changed substantially 'overnight'. So DST has more negative than positive effects, I think.

[mugaliens]

Actually, that depends entirely upon where (http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/g.html) you live!

[mugaliens]

The funny thing about DST is that it has never been proven to save anything at all. However, it does cause a small but statistically significant increase in traffic accidents twice a year. Probably because for commuters light conditions changed substantially 'overnight'. So DST has more negative than positive effects, I think.

Actually, it has been proven to save a lot of electricity devoted to lighting in the mornings.

[crosscountry]

Actually, it has been proven to save a lot of electricity devoted to lighting in the mornings.



yep, people use more electricity when they are at home. if it's light they don't need as much - dark and they use more.

[Cugel]

You would expect it to save electricity, but if you research it, it doesn't show up. You save in lighting, but airco's run longer and because it stays light longer people will use their car more. If you look at the big picture, it doesn't save energy. The negative effects, on the other hand, are without dispute. Especially here in Holland, where we get 2 hours behind on solar time in the summer. Animals, like cows, never adapt to DST and children can take more than a week to adapt. Two hours is simply too much. It could be different for other countries of course.

[crosscountry]

aircos? are you serious? the day isn't longer, just when we use it. most countries are 1 hour.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Is Canada conforming to the US changes, or will we be out of sync?

[Kristophe]

Is Canada conforming to the US changes, or will we be out of sync?

I SO hope we'll be out of sync. It never mattered to me before, but I can't get used to waking up in the middle of the night at 7am here in Edmonton. If I had to do that for two months next year, I'd go nuts.

[paulie jay]

Bah, daylight saving...

Glad we don't have it here

Just to clarify, Queensland doesn't have daylight saving. We schmucks in Sydney have just had to put the clocks forward though...

I'm not a fan. I don't like sunlight at the best of times.

[The Supreme Canuck]

I SO hope we'll be out of sync. It never mattered to me before, but I can't get used to waking up in the middle of the night at 7am here in Edmonton. If I had to do that for two months next year, I'd go nuts.

That's true. I think a time difference would be even more annoying for me, though. I'm a bit south of you. :whistle:

[Gillianren]

Nuts. Now I get to go to work in the dark AND come home in the dark.

You'd be doing that by December regardless, wouldn't you?

[Moose]

You'd be doing that by December regardless, wouldn't you?

Yeah, but the cold sort of numbs you when it's gradual. This time of year it's such a shock. ;)

[Moose]

Is Canada conforming to the US changes, or will we be out of sync?

Hopefully out out sync. It's going to suck having to override the DSL converters on most consumer electronics. If we don't get firmware/software fixes on everything, we're going to have to do the time-shifting thing four times a year if we "conform". That would be a pain, with no benefit whatsoever to us.

[Andromeda321]

I went to a midnight screening of Rocky Horror Picture Show last night, so I was up for the switchover. Didn't matter though because we did the time warp to make up for it. ;)

[Celestial Mechanic]

You'd be surprised just how many clocks have to be changed in a typical household. In our kitchen there's a wall clock, a radio alarm-clock, the coffee maker and the microwave. In the living room there is a wall-clock that receives WWV, it didn't synchronize until later. My main computer went back to "winter time", but some of my others will have to be reset manually when I use them. My Dad set back his two VCR's, only to find them set back yet another hour this morning!

Which brings me to the following topic: what about all our electronics and whatnot that are set for first Sunday in April forward, last Sunday in October back? The programming in our appliances is now wrong. The public is in no mood to replace all appliances right away because of this change that we didn't exactly clamor for. With the computers it may be possible to go into the registry (Windows) or possibly some other config file (Linux, OS/2) and modify the string that encodes the DST rule, but for appliances like TV's and VCR's we're stuck.

[NEOWatcher]

You'd be surprised just how many clocks have to be changed in a typical household. ... but for appliances like TV's and VCR's we're stuck.
I noticed that with my DVD. I forgot it had a DST feature. If most are like mine, you have 3 options.
- Don't worry about the gap
- Set it 4 times a year
- Turn off the DST feature and set it 2 times/year.

This weekend I read an article about Indiana, and how thier multiple decisions are confusing. I knew that, and it's been happening for decades. Why is it suddenly newsworthy. I only read it because I thought the article was going to talk about them changing it. :evil:

[Tog_]

We arrived home from a Halloween party about 2:30 MDT. The VCR, cable box, wall clock, cell phones and computer clocks had self adjusted already. We needed to set a total of 4 clocks, 2 of which were analog, and took longer to pick up than they did to set.

Personally, I hate DST. I live in a desert. The last thing we need in the summer is more sunlight. Extending it to cover even more of the year is nuts. It currently spans nearly 7 full months, now it's getting three more weeks. Isn't something that covers more than 50% of the whole considered to be standard?

Why not just declare that midnight is wrong and move all the clocks ahead 1 hour permanantly and then leave it alone?

[Moose]

Ooh! Tog! Thanks, you reminded me of a clock I completely forgot to update: my analog wall clock.

[Matherly]

Personally, I hate DST. I live in a desert. The last thing we need in the summer is more sunlight.

Thats why I loooooove living in Arizona- No Daylight Savings Time :dance:

[jlhredshift]

I refuse to reset my sundial!

[Roy Batty]

I refuse to reset my sundial!
[rich Jamaican accent] Gnomon, you dooen't need to reset your sundiaal [/] :D

[Celestial Mechanic]

I looked at CONFIG.SYS (which is the main configuration file for OS/2, more critical than it was for DOS), and found the string that determines the dates for the time changes. It was fairly easy to figure out, so I can edit it and I should be set for the new rules.

Now I need to look through the Windows registry to find the equivalent string. I think I've seen it before but I don't think it will be as easy to understand and edit as the OS/2 string was. And I'm not sure just where it is in Linux.

Something I expect to see Real Soon Now will be a small program that will modify the daylight time registry entry for you. Of course you'll have to run it after every reinstall of Windows ... ;)

[Argos]

The darn thing is to begin here this week. As a night creature I can only hate it.

[Donnie B.]

[rich Jamaican accent] Gnomon, you dooen't need to reset your sundiaal [/] :D
*groans* :doh:

Couldn't he just rotate the numbers by 15 degrees?

[Donnie B.]

I looked at CONFIG.SYS (which is the main configuration file for OS/2, more critical than it was for DOS), and found the string that determines the dates for the time changes. It was fairly easy to figure out, so I can edit it and I should be set for the new rules.

Now I need to look through the Windows registry to find the equivalent string. I think I've seen it before but I don't think it will be as easy to understand and edit as the OS/2 string was. And I'm not sure just where it is in Linux.

Something I expect to see Real Soon Now will be a small program that will modify the daylight time registry entry for you. Of course you'll have to run it after every reinstall of Windows ... ;)I don't think you'll have to go to all that trouble. Undoubtedly Windows Update will provide a patch. It would hardly do for MS to make every user go diddling around in the Registry.

[Celestial Mechanic]

I don't think you'll have to go to all that trouble. Undoubtedly Windows Update will provide a patch. It would hardly do for MS to make every user go diddling around in the Registry.
I've searched through the Windows XP Pro registry and could not find it. I'll have to keep looking. I fear that it may now be hidden in a DLL and only Windows Update will take care of the problem.

[Van Rijn]

A google turned it up. See here:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/timezone/dst2007.mspx

There will be a patch for Windows XP SP2. If you don't have or want that, here is information on changing the DST settings (I think this applies in 2000 and XP SP1:

http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=914387

[Trebuchet]

Well, it was actually starting to getting a bit light when I came in this morning, and now that I'm about to go home it still is. So at this point no DST is actually a little better, although as Gillianren points out in a few weeks it won't matter.

[swansont]

The funny thing about DST is that it has never been proven to save anything at all. However, it does cause a small but statistically significant increase in traffic accidents twice a year. Probably because for commuters light conditions changed substantially 'overnight'. So DST has more negative than positive effects, I think.

I've seen studies that show that the changeover to standard time correlates with fewer morning traffic accidents, which was used to promote the idea that people are sleep-deprived, and the extra hour helps with that. The decrease returned to the average over the course of a week. Similarly, there was an increase when the switchover to DST occurred, which decayed to normal over the week.

[crosscountry]

I don't understand why it ruffles so many feathers. Sure it's a hassle 2x per year, but no big really; and most people it helps rather than hurts. I mean, daylight is a good thing right?

And to those that think this "The last thing we need in the summer is more sunlight." It's not actually more sunlight, it's just when we get to use it. ;)

[Jim]

How can they call it "daylight saving?" You don't save anything! If you truly did save daylight, then you could stockpile it when the days were long and use it when the days started getting shorter.

Now that's a plan!

Someone suggested making a monthly 10 minutes change rather than a twice a year hourly one... add 10 minutes/month for six months, then take back 10 minutes per month for the next six. It keeps things closer to normal rhythms and makes it easier to adjust.

Of course, I wouldn't envy the employees at the local clock or watch shops.

[Moose]

Someone suggested making a monthly 10 minutes change rather than a twice a year hourly one... add 10 minutes/month for six months, then take back 10 minutes per month for the next six.

"What time is it, Carl?" "I dunno, Lenny. Is it November yet or still October?"

[swansont]

Someone suggested making a monthly 10 minutes change rather than a twice a year hourly one... add 10 minutes/month for six months, then take back 10 minutes per month for the next six. It keeps things closer to normal rhythms and makes it easier to adjust.

Of course, I wouldn't envy the employees at the local clock or watch shops.

Too complicated.

The Swedes tried something in a similar vein when changing from the Julian to Gregorian calendars. Instead of adjusting all at once, they'd lose the days by not putting in Feb 29th on leap years, so there would be no "missing" days.

It failed pretty spectacularly. http://www.tondering.dk/claus/cal/node3.html (scroll down to the note at the end of 2.2.4)

[HenrikOlsen]

I like the idea of a country failing so spectacularly in solving a problem that they have to have a February 30th to fix the resulting mess before they can even begin to solve the original problem.

[Gillianren]

I like the idea of a country failing so spectacularly in solving a problem that they have to have a February 30th to fix the resulting mess before they can even begin to solve the original problem.

The last year of the old Roman calendar had something like 445 days.

[pghnative]

The last year of the old Roman calendar had something like 445 days.Wow --- how'd you like to have been born on February 108th?

[Tobin Dax]

Ooh! Tog! Thanks, you reminded me of a clock I completely forgot to update: my analog wall clock.
I did that once I'd decided to kill an hour or so based on my analog wall clock. I looked at my cell phone clock about 20 minutes later, and went and made the darn wall clock right. Then I found something else to do for 1.5 hours. :)

[Peter Wilson]

I don't understand why it ruffles so many feathers. Sure it's a hassle 2x per year, but no big really; and most people it helps rather than hurts. I mean, daylight is a good thing right?

Changing schedules makes perfect sense. Sun comes up earlier in summer, why not get up earlier?

It is changing the clock instead of schedule that is so idiotic. DST makes about as much sense as switching from Farenheit to Celsius twice a year.*




*Farenheit in wintertime to "save" temperature :)

[crosscountry]

hahah,

in reality it's much easier to change the time, my opinion only, because work schedule and all. can you imagine people at work asking, "now do we come in at 9 or 10 next week?"

[Damien Evans]

daylight savings only just started down here, it ends next march...

groan, i hate daylight savings, but then again without it we would have daylight at 4.30 am down here in January...

[NEOWatcher]

Changing schedules makes perfect sense. Sun comes up earlier in summer, why not get up earlier?
On the other hand, the sun goes down later in summer. So why not go to bed later?

It is changing the clock instead of schedule that is so idiotic. DST makes about as much sense as switching from Farenheit to Celsius twice a year.*
I like that... Coming from somewhere where it can get rather frigid in the winter, and occasional swelter in the summer, It might have a better phsycological effect than wind chill factors. And that will keep the average at around 25.

[Gillianren]

On the other hand, the sun goes down later in summer. So why not go to bed later?

Because my mother wouldn't let me? (We did get an hour later, but that put it until nine until I was in high school.)

[sarongsong]

February 1, 2007
...The change takes effect this year -- on March 11...Unless changed by one method or another, many systems will remain programmed to read the calendar and start daylight saving time on its old date in April, not its new one in March...
Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/31/AR2007013102318.html?nav=hcmodule)The Ghost of Y2K Past!

[Hydro]

I always thought DST was primarily implemented so school children would not have to wait for the school bus in the dark early in the morning. The buses start running at 6:00 am here in rural Texas.

I wasn't aware that it's now March-November. Strange.

[Neverfly]

I always thought DST was primarily implemented so school children would not have to wait for the school bus in the dark early in the morning. The buses start running at 6:00 am here in rural Texas.

I wasn't aware that it's now March-November. Strange.

Umm were you kidding?

DST was Ben Franklins bright idea...

[Hydro]

Umm were you kidding?

DST was Ben Franklins bright idea...

No, I wasn't, heh. It actually made sense to me for years, now I see no mention of the school bus factor. Maybe I made it up. ;)

Now that you mentioned it, I vaguely recall that Franklin started this mess.

[Neverfly]

LOL
Id make a texan joke but im IN texas so i will have to refrain...:whistle:

[Swift]

February 1, 2007
...The change takes effect this year -- on March 11...Unless changed by one method or another, many systems will remain programmed to read the calendar and start daylight saving time on its old date in April, not its new one in March...
Washington Post The Ghost of Y2K Past!
We got a warning from our corporate IT people that it is going to muck up all of our schedules in Outlook. There only suggestion was to move the times for meetings. :doh: You think someone could come up with a fix. :mad:

[Delvo]

We got a warning from our corporate IT people that it is going to muck up all of our schedules in Outlook. There only suggestion was to move the times for meetings. :doh: You think someone could come up with a fix. :mad:There is one. My agency has already implemented it.

[Swift]

There is one. My agency has already implemented it.
Is this something from Microsoft Delvo? Could you share a link or a name - I would like to forward it to our IT people.

[swansont]

Umm were you kidding?

DST was Ben Franklins bright idea...

Yes, and ... ?

Weren't you aware that Ben Franklin invented schoolchildren and the schoolbuggy?

:)

[Neverfly]

Yes, and ... ?

Weren't you aware that Ben Franklin invented schoolchildren and the schoolbuggy?

:)


Yes and then he invented Lightning to keep the two under control.

[Delvo]

Is this something from Microsoft Delvo? Could you share a link or a name - I would like to forward it to our IT people.It is from Microsoft, so I don't know why your IT wouldn't already know about it unless Microsoft is only issuing it to some kinds of customers and not others, which would be odd. I don't work in IT so I don't know much detail. Here are some bits of the messages that have been sent to us all from IT about it, so you can see how they're using some names/terms associated with it:

These changes have presented challenges to IT - especially concerning scheduled appointments in Outlook. Microsoft has issued patches to correct the problems stemming from the changes. The patches will be installed on your PC and will require no intervention from you. Please follow the instructions below to avoid scheduling problems.

Users should be aware that all calendar appointments between 03/11/07 and 04/01/07, as well as 10/28/07 and 11/04/07, are affected when the desktop patch is applied - all are moved ahead one hour. Users should not correct these appointments. Once the Time Zone rebasing tool is applied... the appointments will be corrected. If users correct appointments prior to the application of the rebasing tool, the appointments will be moved back one hour and then be incorrect.Please be advised that we’ll be running the Exchange server side rebasing tool against your agency mailboxes tonight... if you see any recurring meetings which are still one hour ahead, it may indicate that the rebasing tool has not yet been run on the organizer’s mailbox.

[Swift]

Thanks Delvo. Once you gave me the thought, a quick google found all the MS stuff. I forwarded to our local IT people, who gave me this "duh, of course we knew about that, so don't worry yourself about it". Fine, last time I try to help you guys out. So if our Outlook is all messed up, hey, it ain't my fault, I didn't want to go to the stupid meetings anyway. ;)

[NEOWatcher]

It is from Microsoft, so I don't know why your IT wouldn't already know about it unless Microsoft is only issuing it to some kinds of customers and not others, which would be odd....
Sounds more like a case of CYA in the IT department. They can't reliably say that they will have the issue resolved, and patched on all the computers, or be sure of deployment issues.

I would also be worried about your IT folks being sold some third party product that prevents this "major catastrophe" from happening on your system. I've seen too many products installed because of some salesman says there is a problem where none really exist.

[Trebuchet]

We got a warning from our corporate IT people that it is going to muck up all of our schedules in Outlook. There only suggestion was to move the times for meetings. :doh: You think someone could come up with a fix. :mad:

Our IT folks did something over the weekend. It resulted in all recurring meeting notices being resent. Including some which had already been cancelled. Several also came out as having been sent by someone other than the original sender. Ugh.

[mike alexander]

I saw this headline talking about a 'mini Y2K' because of this, and now I find out it's because meetings scheduled in Microsofty Outlook might get moved an hour?

Hold, me, I'm havin' the palpitations!

[sarongsong]

Hey, you'll be fashionably early!

[mike alexander]

Our society is now concerned because Microslop Outhouse might be off by an hour? May I suggest a patch?

RING

"Hey, Harry, where are you?"

"Meeting doesn't start for an hour."

"DST klarned the Outlook. Gitcheer butt down here NOW."

CLICK

[Doodler]

I hear that already, but then the architect I work for is a Mac user.

[NEOWatcher]

Our society is now concerned because Microslop Outhouse might be off by an hour? May I suggest a patch
I've got a real technicalogically advanced patch that will eliminate the problem completely.

Here's the installation procedure:

When you create a meeting, put a message similar to this in the message portion of the invite:
"Meeting scheduled for xx:xx, in case your Outlook is having issues."
Done!

[Whirlpool]

Our IT folks did something over the weekend. It resulted in all recurring meeting notices being resent. Including some which had already been cancelled. Several also came out as having been sent by someone other than the original sender. Ugh.

Same here, even if Im not there in your country, Im affected because we have to adjust our con-calls meetings ,cancel the scheduled ones and revise the reservations to a different time.

And only today that our IT has released the information that they are going to fix the time.

:doh:

[NEOWatcher]

Ready your devices for Daylight Saving (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17517796/)

Even the opening paragraph is crap.
If you were looking forward to an extra hour of daylight Sunday, you may wind up spending some of it making sure your phones, computers and other tech gear reflect the time change.

More daylight? (ok, nitpicky, but people really think that)

I will be spending time making sure the 95% of the clocks in my house are set anyway, so why should the few that are automatically set cost me so much time?

At least the article had some common devices and their appropriate risk assesment.

[davidlpf]

In Canada everyones paychecks and banking got messed up because the banks and the goverment decide to change their computers all at the same time.

[Trebuchet]

So I turned the computer on early this morning to see if any of tne recent Windows Updates I downloaded had fixed the DST issue. Nope, it's still on standard time. So I decided to try manually synchronizing over the internet and I get:
An error occurred while Windows was synchronizing with time.nist.gov.
You don't suppose their server is a bit busy this morning do you?

[Gillianren]

Mine worked just fine.

[Kaptain K]

I had to manually reset mine. No big deal, but in three weeks, I'll probably have to set it back.

[ToSeek]

I know of a couple of places (including mine) that have sent out announcements essentially saying, "All your meeting times are going to be off by an hour for the next three weeks. Deal."

[Maksutov]

I know of a couple of places (including mine) that have sent out announcements essentially saying, "All your meeting times are going to be off by an hour for the next three weeks. Deal."My atomic clock web time resource in Boulder CO tried to set me back one hour.

Manual is the way to go, now and in about three weeks or so.Does anybody really know what time it is
Does anybody really care

[publius]

So I turned the computer on early this morning to see if any of tne recent Windows Updates I downloaded had fixed the DST issue. Nope, it's still on standard time. So I decided to try manually synchronizing over the internet and I get:

You don't suppose their server is a bit busy this morning do you?

Which version of Winbloze are you using? All my XPs here, including 64-bit on an x64 machine did the jump just fine.

Now, the Windows internet time syncing thing may be screwy. I've disabled it here (and not just by clearing the checkmark on the time and date applet to disable internet updates -- you need to disable the Windows Time service), and I use a different time synching app, Dimension4, and use the US Naval Observatory's time service, either 'tick.usno.navy.mil' or 'tock.usno.navy.mil'. It's spot on the DST switch.

The USNO is the ultimate authority on what time it is, as far I'm concerned. :lol: Tick and Tock are the gods of Time.

-Richard

[swansont]

Which version of Winbloze are you using? All my XPs here, including 64-bit on an x64 machine did the jump just fine.

Now, the Windows internet time syncing thing may be screwy. I've disabled it here (and not just by clearing the checkmark on the time and date applet to disable internet updates -- you need to disable the Windows Time service), and I use a different time synching app, Dimension4, and use the US Naval Observatory's time service, either 'tick.usno.navy.mil' or 'tock.usno.navy.mil'. It's spot on the DST switch.

The USNO is the ultimate authority on what time it is, as far I'm concerned. :lol: Tick and Tock are the gods of Time.

-Richard

You (the collective you) should know that the clocks at USNO (and NIST) are all on UTC, so synching isn't the issue. If your computer's DST settings/software aren't right, your time will be off by an hour. Period. Conversely, if your clocks is off by an hour, it's your computer. Re-synching isn't going to change anything.

AFAIK, the only issue at USNO that requires attention on DST changeover is the system that runs the voice announcer.

[Roving Philosopher]

From what I understand, only XP and Vista got patched. If you are using something older, try here (http://www.intelliadmin.com/blog/2007/01/unofficial-windows-2000-daylight.html). It's not an official patch from Microsoft, but it is based on the instructions Microsoft gives for fixing the problem for older versions of Windows. I ran it on my Win2K box, rebooted, and it worked fine.

[SeanF]

You (the collective you) should know that the clocks at USNO (and NIST) are all on UTC, so synching isn't the issue. If your computer's DST settings/software aren't right, your time will be off by an hour. Period. Conversely, if your clocks is off by an hour, it's your computer. Re-synching isn't going to change anything.
Hmm. I've got one of those little weather-system things that includes atomic clock updates, and it correctly switched over this weekend.

[NEOWatcher]

Oh boy; get a load of this.

Average gasoline price rises 20 cents (http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/11/news/economy/bc.energy.gasoline.retail.reut/index.htm?postversion=2007031121)


That change is expected to cut energy usage as demand for electricity falls during the early evening, but gas consumption could increase if more Americans use the extra daylight hours to drive, said Trilby Lundberg, the industry analyst who edits the survey.


Well; so much for DST cutting gas consumption.

[SeanF]

Well; so much for DST cutting gas consumption.
Did somebody somewhere say that DST cuts gas consumption?

[NEOWatcher]

Did somebody somewhere say that DST cuts gas consumption?
Yes; the government did (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=386643&postcount=3), which was the entire reason for the change.

[SeanF]

Yes; the government did (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=386643&postcount=3), which was the entire reason for the change.
Saying that it will reduce electricity consumption isn't really the same thing as saying it will reduce gas consumption, is it?

[NEOWatcher]

Saying that it will reduce electricity consumption isn't really the same thing as saying it will reduce gas consumption, is it?
Granted, not a one to one. But the idea was energy savings overall.

[SeanF]

Granted, not a one to one. But the idea was energy savings overall.
Maybe. :) IIRC, oil is only used to generate about 2% of the electricity in the US, so any given reduction in electricity usage is going to constitute a minimal reduction in oil usage. That's probably why the quote in your link says "the equivalent of 10,000 barrels of oil a day" - most of the savings would be in coal or natural gas - but it makes me wonder why they chose oil to make the comparison in the first place. Seems likely to foster confusion.

At any rate, how do you know they didn't take additional driving into account when they determined the likely savings? :)

[Delvo]

My cellphone's network didn't change!

[Matherly]

My computer, clocks, TiVo, etc. all did what they were supossed to.

Not a blessed thing! I love living in Arizona :dance:

[Jim]

There is some controversy over how much energy will (or won't) be saved:

... Fred Upton, a Republican congressman from Michigan who pushed the change. "For every single day that we extend daylight-saving time, we would save the energy equivalent of 100,000 barrels of oil." ...

But in a study last year, the U.S. Department of Energy estimated that, overall, this year's extension into March and November will probably save very little energy — far less than 1 percent of the nation's annual energy consumption.

Another recent study, by the California Energy Commission, came to a similar conclusion of a very small effect. ...

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=7786075

[Swift]

It mostly seems to have rolled over fine. All the computers I use at work seem ok, and most of my appointments seem ok in Outlook, with a couple of exceptions. For some reason, St. Patrick's Day, which is a holiday inserted by Outlook, became a two day holiday (Saturday and Sunday) - I guess the folks at MS are planning big hangovers. And another all day appointment I had became 1:00 to 1:30 a.m.

[NEOWatcher]

Maybe. :) IIRC, oil is only used to generate about 2% of the electricity in the US, so any given reduction in electricity usage is going to constitute a minimal reduction in oil usage. That's probably why the quote in your link says "the equivalent of 10,000 barrels of oil a day" - most of the savings would be in coal or natural gas - but it makes me wonder why they chose oil to make the comparison in the first place. Seems likely to foster confusion.
And that is an additional beef that I have with that. They use the public's fear of oil instability to sell this energy thing. So, using your numbers, we actually saved 200 barrels of oil a day, and reduced coal or natural gas, and even saved on some renewables. Not as big of an impact.

But; the entertainment industry likes it.

At any rate, how do you know they didn't take additional driving into account when they determined the likely savings? :)
Something that I was asking when they were spouting numbers. In fact, nobody knows.
This article quotes 10k bbl, Jim's article says 100k. The number is based on savings in a time when everybody cut back thier usage because of shortages and costs.

Then; on top of it, the article I posted blames the driving for the price increase, when 2 days before the time change I kept hearing "the price is up in California, how long before the same thing happens to the rest of the country".
Did it go up in California because the Californians all said "hey; I better fill up because I will do an extra hour of driving this weekend."?

There might be some truth or benefit buried in all this, but there's too many unsubstantiated claims.

[swansont]

There is some controversy over how much energy will (or won't) be saved:

[I]... Fred Upton, a Republican congressman from Michigan who pushed the change. "For every single day that we extend daylight-saving time, we would save the energy equivalent of 100,000 barrels of oil." ...

But in a study last year, the U.S. Department of Energy estimated that, overall, this year's extension into March and November will probably save very little energy — far less than 1 percent of the nation's annual energy consumption.


(emphasis added)

That's a pretty meaningless statistic.

Should anyone be surprised that the proposed savings are less than 1% of the total? If you just shut everything off for an average hour, your savings would be ~4%.

100,000 barrels of oil is only about 0.5% of our daily petroleum consumption (actual, not energy equivalent) http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

[swansont]

Hmm. I've got one of those little weather-system things that includes atomic clock updates, and it correctly switched over this weekend.

That's a radio signal, though, not NTP. It ties into a different system.

[Trebuchet]

For those that asked, my home computer is on XP, SP2, and I've downloaded all the recommended updates. I'm just going to leave it on standard time for three weeks and let it fix itself then. We don't really use the time for anything there.

Somewhat off-topic, I've got an old VCR I had to reset a few weeks ago and discovered it couldn't handle the year 2007! I had to tell it it was 2001.

[publius]

You (the collective you) should know that the clocks at USNO (and NIST) are all on UTC, so synching isn't the issue. If your computer's DST settings/software aren't right, your time will be off by an hour. Period. Conversely, if your clocks is off by an hour, it's your computer. Re-synching isn't going to change anything.

AFAIK, the only issue at USNO that requires attention on DST changeover is the system that runs the voice announcer.

I'm going to look up the NTP protocol to see the details when I get a chance, but I had a DST problem with a particular NTP server. I would sync and it would kick it back (or foward) one hour -- I forget if was the DST or standard time transition. The local system was set correctly and had already noted the change. Contacting the NTP server tried to change it by one hour again.

I then switched to the USNO servers and the problem went away. So that tells me that the server itself can have some role in the DST setting, undoing what the local DST switchover logic is doing.

-Richard

[swansont]

I'm going to look up the NTP protocol to see the details when I get a chance, but I had a DST problem with a particular NTP server. I would sync and it would kick it back (or foward) one hour -- I forget if was the DST or standard time transition. The local system was set correctly and had already noted the change. Contacting the NTP server tried to change it by one hour again.

I then switched to the USNO servers and the problem went away. So that tells me that the server itself can have some role in the DST setting, undoing what the local DST switchover logic is doing.

-Richard

I'm thinking there has to be something else, because not everyone switches over to their version of DST at the same time, or at all. NTP just provides UTC to the computer, which then modifies it based on time zone and DST settings.

[Donnie B.]

I've got an old VCR I had to reset a few weeks ago and discovered it couldn't handle the year 2007! I had to tell it it was 2001.It knew you were supposed to replace it with a DVD recorder by now. Since you didn't, it's just sulking.

[Maksutov]

My cellphone's network didn't change!So that's why you got cut off in the middle of a conversat

[Maksutov]

It knew you were supposed to replace it with a DVD recorder by now. Since you didn't, it's just sulking.Watch out for when it's done with its sulk and starts spitting iron oxide at you.

[Trebuchet]

It's quite happy now, living in March 2001. When you think about it, the world was a happier place back then.

I also discovered the "Automatically adjust clock for Daylight Saving Time" box on my computer was unchecked. Checked it, time adjusted. It has always done it automatically before, perhaps the SP2 update caused it to get unchecked.

[crosscountry]

I would just be happy about the more daylight in the evening.

[sarongsong]

My computer just now "up-dated" itself by adding an hour to its time display. http://bautforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Celestial Mechanic]

My dad's VCRs updated this weekend, as expected, but our radio clock (which supposedly is synchronized by broadcasts of WWV) also updated this weekend rather than in March. This clock has no means of entering a date, so why didn't WWV update until now?

[HenrikOlsen]

Radio clock signals include date information but they are in UTC, it's your clock that has a DST rule and changed timezones.

Oops I was wrong.
I just read the data format (http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvbtimecode.htm) for WWVB (http://tf.nist.gov/stations/wwvb.htm), it definitely says the DST information is included in the signal, it also says (http://tf.nist.gov/timefreq/general/history.htm#Anchor-16126) that it used the new rule for the data.

New guess, your clock uses a built in DST rule instead of using the info sent by WWVB, possibly to make it possible to turn it off for sales to Arizona.

WWVB Radio Controlled Clocks: Recommended Practices for Manufacturers and Consumers (http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1976.pdf) does allow for a built in rule, but recommends using the transmited info.

[Trebuchet]

The very fancy VOIP phones my company is converting to didn't update two weeks ago -- a little surfing on the company web revealed that Cisco apparently doesn't have a fix! They did have a method for manually rebooting the phone so it would go get the time off the web. I did that and it worked. I'm not working today but may go in anyway just to see if the phone is (as I suspect) now an hour ahead!

But this computer is just fine and the old VCR still thinks it's 2001!

[Gillianren]

I think the military went over to Daylight Savings Time in Iraq this weekend, based on some things Graham said, but I'm not 100% sure.

[Fazor]

My phone was an hour ahead this morning. Seeing as it was my first day of class it caused about 1-2sec of panic time (thinking i was late) before I realized what it did. Oh well.

[HenrikOlsen]

I think the military went over to Daylight Savings Time in Iraq this weekend, based on some things Graham said, but I'm not 100% sure.
Most countries do not follow American laws, so have their own DST rules.
First weekend in April seems fairly common, it's the one used in many countries in Europe, at least this year.

I really doubt even the American Military would use a different rule than the one used locally for local time, for operations it's probably UTC anyway.

[NEOWatcher]

I would just be happy about the more daylight in the evening.

Well, the numbers are now coming in, and the result is CrossCountry's view is the only advantage.

USAToday: Early Daylight Saving Time a bust (http://www.usatoday.com/tech/news/2007-04-03-dst-bust_N.htm)

For example, households may draw less electricity for lights at night, but will use more power in the early in the day as they wake to darker and chillier mornings.
Wow; never saw that coming (not) :wall:

Residential lighting comprises only about 10% of the average homeowner's electricity use, while air conditioners, heaters and refrigerators consume much more power. Washers, dryers and plasma televisions are also bigger users of electricity than lighting.

This is actually something I asked about in the light bulb thread (IIRC)

[Trebuchet]

The very fancy VOIP phones my company is converting to didn't update two weeks ago -- a little surfing on the company web revealed that Cisco apparently doesn't have a fix! They did have a method for manually rebooting the phone so it would go get the time off the web. I did that and it worked. I'm not working today but may go in anyway just to see if the phone is (as I suspect) now an hour ahead!

But this computer is just fine and the old VCR still thinks it's 2001!

The phone was just fine this morning. But I discovered my Palm PDA was an hour ahead!

[Delvo]

How far off of "clock noon" do we have "solar noon" hitting now? I've been thinking that, since what most people seem to want is for noon to mark the middle of the work shift but for the work shift itself to only occupy the early part of the day with plenty left over (so the day's middle is near the work shift's end), that would mean that our "12:00" hits while the sun is still ascending and the sun gets to its highest point sometime up to a few hours into the "afternoon"... but I can't check the sun's position ver precisely, or often enough to get comparisons and plot its track, so I can't confirm or refute...

[NEOWatcher]

...but I can't check the sun's position ver precisely, or often enough to get comparisons and plot its track, so I can't confirm or refute...
It depends on where in the time zone you are.
Go to the almanac section of your local weather, and split the difference between sunrise and sunset.

For my location it's half way between 7:07am and 7:53pm, and is 3 minutes longer in total tomorrow.
So for me solar noon was at 13:30pm today.

[crosscountry]

yep 13:26 here for local noon. I don't mind, warmer afternoons and longer evenings :D

[uniqueuponhim]

Why oh why do we not simply abolish time zones and DST altogether, and simply have everyone on the planet use UTC? So what if your 9-5 shift becomes 3-11? Does what you call the hours you go to work really matter as much as just having time be completely standardized?

[Gillianren]

Why oh why do we not simply abolish time zones and DST altogether, and simply have everyone on the planet use UTC? So what if your 9-5 shift becomes 3-11? Does what you call the hours you go to work really matter as much as just having time be completely standardized?

Well, yes, actually.

Giving a time in local time as opposed to UTC gives you at least some slight idea of what local light conditions will be at the time, for example.

[Donnie B.]

Well, yes, actually.

Giving a time in local time as opposed to UTC gives you at least some slight idea of what local light conditions will be at the time, for example.Of course, that would still be true after a change to UTC, once you got used to the new local schedule. But it would not be true that 1200 would be more or less local solar noon everywhere you went.

Doggone round planet.

[NEOWatcher]

... But it would not be true that 1200 would be more or less local solar noon everywhere you went...
Go ahead and make that international call, they should be up, it's noon there. :D

[swansont]

Why oh why do we not simply abolish time zones and DST altogether, and simply have everyone on the planet use UTC? So what if your 9-5 shift becomes 3-11? Does what you call the hours you go to work really matter as much as just having time be completely standardized?

It's political. Some set of people will get solar noon being ~1200, and some fraction of everyone else will feel slighted. There was much debate when it was decided that the prime meridian was to go through Greenwich and not Paris or somewhere else, and that conference was attended by only two dozen or so countries.

[Delvo]

Figuring out what time it is elksewhere is much simpler when all you have to figure out is hours and you know everyone'e minutes are the same (if it's 4:18 for me it's x:18 everywhere else).

[NEOWatcher]

Figuring out what time it is elksewhere is much simpler when all you have to figure out is hours and you know everyone'e minutes are the same (if it's 4:18 for me it's x:18 everywhere else).
Don't Elks wear antlers? :shifty:

[Swift]

Figuring out what time it is elksewhere is much simpler when all you have to figure out is hours and you know everyone'e minutes are the same (if it's 4:18 for me it's x:18 everywhere else).Actually, no. There are some zones that are x hours 30 minutes off from UCT.
map (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/faq/docs/world_tzones.html)

[SeanF]

Figuring out what time it is elksewhere is much simpler when all you have to figure out is hours and you know everyone'e minutes are the same (if it's 4:18 for me it's x:18 everywhere else).
If everybody used UTC, the minutes would be the same everywhere else, too. :)

I would think that the adjustment inherent in moving/traveling to another location would be more difficult without time zones, wouldn't it? Not only would your body have to adjust, but your mind would, too - "I go to work at 2pm here instead of 8am..."