Richard Dawkins in Menlo Park Ca

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I just saw Richard Dawkins (http://richarddawkins.net) at a book signing, discussing his new book. The book store it was at was too small for the crowd. Believe it or not there was good number of people to hear him and get their book sign, which I did.

Now all was good except for the Q&A part, which failed due to questions had no real content to work with. But Dawkins is a pro for all except one he responded quite well. And that one was some guy 'correcting' Dr. Dawkins on how Asian cultures saw there 'religion' that they did not have a word for it. He said well thank your for that.....haha.

I look forward to reading his new one, but I really should check out The Selfish Gene and or The Blind Watchmaker.

Treading to close to the edge with this one:D

[Frog march]

a stick that doesn't bend snaps.


which is true of evolutionists as well as fundies.

[Roy Batty]

Science 'bends' very well, thank you very much. I wouldn't expect a branch to tie itself into a knot though :)

[JohnD]

Well, obc, before criticising Dawkins, what did the questioner mean?

I can think of several words for Asian religions straight off the top, Islam, Hinduism, Sihkism, Shinto, Bhuddism, Zoroastrianism, Ba'hai, er, Jewish faith.

Those who follow the Prophet, definitely call their religion 'Islam'. Not sure about the others, but I presume that our word is an Anglicised approximation of the word that they use.

What was the questioner on about?

John

[Ilya]

But Dawkins is a pro for all except one he responded quite well. And that one was some guy 'correcting' Dr. Dawkins on how Asian cultures saw there 'religion' that they did not have a word for it. He said well thank your for that.....haha.

ALL "Asian cultures" have no word for "religion"? An absurd generalization, even if it is true for SOME Asian cultures.

But it makes me wonders – when did the word "religion" first come to be? I doubt any culture had it before monotheism: general understanding back then was not that other people worship "false gods" – rather, they worshipped "different gods". To a Greek, Osiris was just as real as Zeus, even if he did not worship Osiris – someone did, after all! At various times, Osiris might be an enemy god, but a god nonethless. Back then, to say that someone has a "different religion" simply made no sense.

And monotheism did not begin with Abraham, or even Moses. Ancient Hebrews understood that "Thou shall worship no god save me" commandment meant just that – they had a contract with one God, to the exclusion of others. That did not imply to Hebrews that other gods did not exist – indeed, if that were the case, that would be a very easy commandment to to follow! I am fairly sure the idea that God of Abraham is the only one that exists, and other gods are fiction, is a rabbinical tradition which dates after destruction of Second Temple – and well into Christian era. Only then it made sense to talk about non-Jews and/or non-Christians having "different religions."

[obscured by clouds]

What was the questioner on about?

John

It was not a question, rather a clarifying statement from another question.

I have read that people often bring up what about Buddhism or others like it, isn't that a religion too. And from Dawkins point of view, he says he does not think so. At least not in the same way that the three major ones go. Basically he says he dose not know much about then and does not comment.

That's when this person was trying to make his point......not a question but a statement.

I hope I get a chance to start on his new book today.

[Disinfo Agent]

But it makes me wonders – when did the word "religion" first come to be? I doubt any culture had it before monotheism: general understanding back then was not that other people worship "false gods" – rather, they worshipped "different gods".Who said a religion has to be monotheistic? :confused:

[Ilya]

I meant: I doubt any LANGUAGE had the word translatable as "religion" in it before monotheism came to be

[sarongsong]

...when did the word "religion" first come to be?...Interesting word found in this gargantuan (3,210 pages) 2nd Edition "Webster's New International Dictionary [1947]:religio, n. [L.] Primitive awe inspired by events or phenomena which man cannot explain; hence, religion.

[Disinfo Agent]

I meant: I doubt any LANGUAGE had the word translatable as "religion" in it before monotheism came to beYes, that's what I thought you meant. But why?

According to the Online Etymology Dictionary (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=religion), it seems the Latin word religio (the source of English "religion") was already around in Cicero's time -- and he was no monotheist!

religion

c.1200, "state of life bound by monastic vows," also "conduct indicating a belief in a divine power," from Anglo-Fr. religiun (11c.), from O.Fr. religion "religious community," from L. religionem (nom. religio) "respect for what is sacred, reverence for the gods," in L.L. "monastic life" (5c.); according to Cicero, derived from relegare "go through again, read again," from re- "again" + legere "read" (see lecture). However, popular etymology among the later ancients (and many modern writers) connects it with religare "to bind fast" (see rely), via notion of "place an obligation on," or "bond between humans and gods." Another possible origin is religiens "careful," opposite of negligens.

[Ilya]

OK, so I was wrong. Or maybe not. "Primitive awe inspired by events or phenomena which man cannot explain" is not quite the same concept we call "religion". I do not believe that people in Cicero's time had a word for "conduct indicating a belief in a divine power" because any OTHER conduct would not occur to them.

[Delvo]

I can think of several words for Asian religions straight off the top, Islam, Hinduism, Sihkism, Shinto, Bhuddism, Zoroastrianism, Ba'hai, er, Jewish faith.

Those who follow the Prophet, definitely call their religion 'Islam'. Not sure about the others, but I presume that our word is an Anglicised approximation of the word that they use.First of all, since this was in California, it's presumable that the speaker was American and probably local, and in the USA (especially California) it's trendy among some to use the word "Asian" when one really means "Oriental". Nevermind the facts that most of Asia isn't the Orient (and a big fat chunk of its population is even "white"!) and some of the Orient isn't on the continent; that's how PCism works: replace a word with another that doesn't mean the same thing, and pretend it does, so you can pretend to be enlightened by avoiding a word that you pretend is sinister.

So that takes out most of your examples, with the exceptions of Shinto and Bhuddism. And if you look only at Oriental cultures, there really is a difference in how they think about and talk about religion... not quite a matter of not having words for them, but one of not having unique names for them that aren't just plain old descriptive words to them. Daoism and Taoism, for example, are English words made by adding our suffix "ism" to a non-English base, and that base just means "way" or "path", as in a way of life or path through life, a metaphor for how we make our choices and what comes from those choices. So when they talk about following the dao or tao, they're not using a name for the thing, they're describing it. Imagine the parallel here; some Christians say that Christianity is about loving others, but if it didn't have the name "Christianity", then there'd be nothing else they could call it but "loving others". And they might even say that Christianity prescribes a way of life you could almost translate from the word "dao", with the English phrase "stay on the straight and narrow road"... but if there were no named separate entity such as Christianity or Judaism or such to use as the source of the advice to live that way, then that way of life would have to be its own reason for existence... and without a name for itself, it isn't cut out and separated from the rest of your life, so it just is life, encompassing and blended into everything else, going with you everywhere at all times instead of taking up only the time that's scheduled for it in the church dedicated to it. "Shinto", meanwhile, is not a word for a religion; it's a word for a celebratory dance that people of that religion do on certain occasions. Occidental people just either didn't understand that distinction originally or understood it but consciously reassigned the word because they wanted to have a name for the religion and there was nothing else available. And "Buddhism" is not a name but an English derivation from a word meaning "awakened" or "enlightened", so it's just another description of a concept like dao/tao, declaring one's intention to become as awakened/enlightened as possible, instead of a proper name.

So the speaker's point was presumably that, in the Orient, religion is not a separate entity the way it is here; to them, it's just life itself.

[JohnD]

Delvo,

"I am the WAY, the truth and the life", said Jesus Christ, at least in the King James version. My emphasis.
Many devout Christians, especially those who profess to have been 'born again', would claim that their belief is the most important thing in their life. So the Christians (who follow Christianism?) also feel the same as Asians about thier religion.

Shinto, a dance? See the Wikipedia - 神道 - pronounced 'shin-to' - means the Way of the Spirit or God.

And "Asian" a trendy way of saying "Oriental" ? How long is it since I heard anyone described as an "Oriental", by Briton or American? It's archaic! Anyway, it's also inaccurate, as it merely means 'from the East'. I am an Oriental to an American. "Asian" describes anyone with connections to the Asian continent, which while an enormous location is still more specific than "Oriental", which is relative.

But I digress. I too am looking forward to reading Dawkins on the God Delusion - I have asked my family to buy it for me for Christmas. Ironic, isn't it?

JOhn

[sarongsong]

..."I am the WAY..." said Jesus...
Shinto...means the Way of the Spirit...Popular word, way......Taoism...A religion native to China. Its adherents attempt to live according to the Tao — the “Way,” which they believe governs the universe... Answers.com (http://www.answers.com/topic/taoism)

[Frog march]

old Dawkin's not throwing the baby out with the bath water again is he?

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But I digress. I too am looking forward to reading Dawkins on the God Delusion - I have asked my family to buy it for me for Christmas. Ironic, isn't it?

JOhn

Funny cause I got a few, one is for my mom for a Christmas present.;)

I dont have a transcript from that evening, but if follows from what he has been talking about in his recent interviews.

The guy who introduced Dawkins also did a good job, here is a sample of what he said, the entire speech can be found here (http://richarddawkins.net/article,261,Introduction-to-the-Menlo-Park-CA-event,David-Cowan)


David Cowan's introduction speech at Keplers' bookshop in Menlo Park

Good evening everyone. I'm your neighbor David Cowan, and I have the great pleasure of introducing tonight's author, Oxford University Professor Richard Dawkins. His contributions to evolutionary biology have earned him the Faraday Award, the Kistler Prize, and the Kelvin Medal.

In the spirit of his late friend Douglas Adams, Professor Dawkins has launched a campaign, along with allies Michael Shermer, Daniel Dennett and Penn Jillette, to change the course of history. To understand how, please permit me 2 minutes to explain how he has already changed the course of my life.

Here in Silicon Valley we're acutely aware of the many hackers who marshal other people's resources on the internet to suit their own means. We understand how malicious programmers employ various technologies to embed viruses in our computers, turning them into zombies that quietly do the evil programmer's bidding in the background or late at night. If you've ever scanned your PC for spyware you know how common and resilient these infections are. Indeed, without our knowledge, many of our computers at home are so compromised, inciting them to snoop, steal, spam, phish and infect. Criminals regularly rent entire networks of zombies-often 50,000 PC's strong. For example, they might instruct their rented zombies to simultaneously overwhelm the servers of a particular web site until such time as the owner of the web site wires a ransom payment to the extorters' Cayman Islands bank account.

Like their organic cousins, computer viruses MUTATE, ATTACK, RESIST and TRANSMIT. Since there really is an intelligent designer behind computer viruses, their MUTATIONS are not random-they come in the form of new instructions downloaded as the viruses regularly re-connect with the virus Creator.

The ATTACK involves execution of some program that serves the interests of the Creator, not the PC owner.

The viruses RESIST your anti-virus software sometimes by disabling it, and also by embedding themselves into your computer in so many different ways that only one of them needs to survive your anti-virus defenses for the Creator to re-establish control.

And finally, the virus TRANSMITS to new hosts through email, instant messages, shared multimedia documents, or so-called worms that burrow through buggy software.

Obviously you don't want a zombie in your home-it exposes you to identity theft, wreaks havoc on others, clogs up your internet connection, and eventually cripples your computer. Now that's bad enough, but we're here today to hear about a much more dangerous kind of zombie network...

50,000 computers are a useful resource to steal, but what if instead one could recruit a zombie army a thousand times larger, and comprised of human hosts? That would be a formidable resource-one that commands high rents from businesses, politicians, criminals and military aggressors.

[Disinfo Agent]

I do not believe that people in Cicero's time had a word for "conduct indicating a belief in a divine power" because any OTHER conduct would not occur to them.And it would have, to Christians? :confused:

[antoniseb]

Please be careful about the religion rule. This is a tough thread topic to do that with, but you still have to try.