*Spoilers* The Matrix: Reloaded [Archive] - Bad Astronomy and Universe Today Forum

g99

15-May-2003, 07:23 AM

Well i saw it last night (technically since i saw it at 10:00 p.m. wed 14th. :-) (nanananana :P )

I have to say it was a very good movie. But i did have its errors. Some plot point were useless and some were obvious leadups to the next film, but made no sense to me at this point.

I have to say i have never seen more action in one movie than ever before. Some scenes were just Amazing. The Agent Smith fights and the highway scene were Amazing.

Well Here (http://plaza.ufl.edu/sandler/movies/5.htm) is my review of it. I do have to warn you. I do give away plot points. :-)

Spoilers:

BA in the movie:

1. how do you permanently scour they sky? It is listed as 100 years that Zion has been there and i would think that the fight would be even longer than that. What would blacken the sky for so long? Nuthing that i can imagine. Even a Nuclear winter can do that.

(Side note: In the Animatrix movies (www.animatrix.com) it is listed as some sprayed cloud mixture that does it. I don't know what it is, but at least it gives some idea. Added: the movies thast tell the origin are called "The second renissance")

2. The digging machines: well the are giant drills that drill down into the planet. They are obviously drilling throught the crust and m,antle since they are only a few hours away from Zion, which is near the core. Yet when you see the tubes they travel throught, they do not fall in on themselves. The earth is under a great amount of pressure hewre. The tubes would instantly collapse in on themselves. the drilling attempt would fail miserably.

3. How does a city survive so near the core? It seems to be literally dug into the rock. We even see the rock in some scenes, yet it is not hot, nor is it caving in. What keeps it from caving in?

4. Good: the hovercraft actually have to resupply energy and don't have a unlimited powercell!

5. How do they grow their food in Zion? Hydroponics would work, but they never showed anything like that. Maybe it was hidden.

6. where do they get all this metal? I can see where Zion gets it, they are near a huge source of Iron, the core.

But where do the machines get the metal for all of their robots and tubes and buildings? it seems like there is more there than possible.

7. Why don't the Machines go into space and use shuttles or ships to ferry energy down to the planet from solar arrays in space? How about a space elevatrr that uses giant space power arrays to power the machines. Then they don't need the pesky humans.

8. [deleted by Agent Smith]

9. Don't these hovercraft have weapons of any sort? I mean a good 50 cal machine gun would decimate the sentinels coming to them. Plus it is very low tech. Or rockets. They have lots of big time technology. They can't make a simple guided rocket?

[usual]

Wingnut Ninja

15-May-2003, 09:13 AM

Well, I haven't seen it yet, but I do have some thoughts.

BA in the movie:

1. how do you permanently scour they sky? It is listed as 100 years that Zion has been there and i would think that the fight would be even longer than that. What would blacken the sky for so long? Nuthing that i can imagine. Even a Nuclear winter can do that.

(Side not: In the Animatrix movies (www.animatrix.com) it is listed as some sprayed could mixture that does it. I don't know what it is, but at least it gives some idea. )

This seemed really implausible to me (of course, the whole Second Rennaisance Part 2 seemed really implausible). There's no way to simply make the skies "churny" for centuries. What goes up must inevitably come down.

As a side note: did anyone else notice that even after they blocked the skies, but before humanity got the ol' hamster treatment, that the machines were still running around just fine? I mean... it's not like they converted every human being into a battery that evening. There must have been a lot of time while there was no sun and no energy source.

Then again, why didn't nukes do anything? Radiation resistant my butt, if you get nuked, you're going to be dust.

2. The digging machines: well the are giant drills that drill down into the planet. They are obviously drilling throught the crust and m,antle since they are only a few hours away from Zion, which is near the core. Yet when you see the tubes they travel throught, they do not fall in on themselves. The earth is under a great amount of pressure hewre. The tubes would instantly collapse in on themselves. the drilling attempt would fail miserably.

3. How does a city survive so near the core? It seems to be literall dug into the rock. We ven see the rock in some scenes, yet it is not hot, nor is it caving in. What keeps it from caving in?

Now, I know that Tank (he's the one that lives, right?) says it's "near the core, where it's still warm", but I think I read somewhere that Zion is only a few kilometers down, thus avoiding the whole "melting in liquid magma" problem. That's why the machines can dig down so quickly. But then, the whole "near the core" thing becomes Bad Planetology.

5. How do they grow their food in Zion? Hydroponics would work, but they never showed anything like that. Maybe it was hidden.

I assume it's something like that and they just had more pressing things to do than tour the gardens of Zion. :)

7. Why don't the Machines go into space and use shuttles or ships to ferry energy down to the planet from solar arrays in space? How about a space elevatrr that uses giant space power arrays to power the machines. Then they don't need the pesky humans.

The humans as an energy source doesn't work in the first place, so I guess the machines don't need to rely on common sense or anything.

9. Don't these hovercraft have weapons of any sort? I mean a good 50 cal machine gun would decimate the sentinels coming to them. Plus it is very low tech. Or rockets. They have lots of big time technology. They can't make a simple guided rockect?

Enter The Matrix has some sequences where you man a gun on a hovercraft to hold off swarms of Sentinels. I guess some models have them and some don't.

Seems like a pretty useful thing to put on your ship, though.

g99

15-May-2003, 09:26 AM

Well, I haven't seen it yet, but I do have some thoughts.

This seemed really implausible to me (of course, the whole Second Rennaisance Part 2 seemed really implausible). There's no way to simply make the skies "churny" for centuries. What goes up must inevitably come down.

As a side note: did anyone else notice that even after they blocked the skies, but before humanity got the ol' hamster treatment, that the machines were still running around just fine? I mean... it's not like they converted every human being into a battery that evening. There must have been a lot of time while there was no sun and no energy source.

Then again, why didn't nukes do anything? Radiation resistant my butt, if you get nuked, you're going to be dust.

I agree. The Animatrix movies were good, but i think the humans were beaten too easily. I mean the robots were inside one city. I am sure a buildup of forces would of been seen easily.

I did wonder where they got the power from after they scoured the skies. Maybe they had batteries or power plants? The robots had nukes, so they must of had nucluar power plants. So temporarily they might be able to survive.

Now, I know that Tank (he's the one that lives, right?) says it's "near the core, where it's still warm", but I think I read somewhere that Zion is only a few kilometers down, thus avoiding the whole "melting in liquid magma" problem. That's why the machines can dig down so quickly. But then, the whole "near the core" thing becomes Bad Planetology.

Spoilers...

no actually in the second one he is dead.
In the movie you see active Lava beds inside of Zion (the rave/orgy scene) and the machines actually are seen diging throught red hot rock.

I assume it's something like that and they just had more pressing things to do than tour the gardens of Zion. :)

But that would of been soo cool! they could emulate the hanging gardens of babylon!

Enter The Matrix has some sequences where you man a gun on a hovercraft to hold off swarms of Sentinels. I guess some models have them and some don't.

Seems like a pretty useful thing to put on your ship, though.

yah i have not played the game yet. I am going to get it in a few weeks once i beat GTA Vice city for the PC. I just got it and i have been waiting for that for longer. :-)

QuagmaPhage

15-May-2003, 11:26 AM

1. how do you permanently scour they sky? It is listed as 100 years that Zion has been there and i would think that the fight would be even longer than that. What would blacken the sky for so long? Nuthing that i can imagine. Even a Nuclear winter can do that.

Venus's sky is kind of "permanently scoured". If the composition of the atmosphere was changed it could last for a very long time. I haven't seen new the film yet, but I would guess that everything the inhabitants of Zion know is something they have loosely gathered from few facts. Do they any records dating from the time when machines took over?

I did wonder where they got the power from after they scoured the skies. Maybe they had batteries or power plants? The robots had nukes, so they must of had nucluar power plants.

They might also have powerplants that extracts geothermal energy, there is enough of that.

frenat

15-May-2003, 01:20 PM

Mr. X

15-May-2003, 01:39 PM

SKY

15-May-2003, 03:34 PM

I always thought the biggest plot hole was they say all humans were originally used as batteries and there was one who could change the Matrix, freed the first, etc. Sure maybe he could free himself but then where would he get the tech needed to free others, survive, build a city, you know, the little things.

I kinda get the feeling that this series will be like the Star Wars series, meaning that later on we may see a series of prequels to the current Matrix, Matrix Reloaded and Matrix Revolutions that will answer some of the unanswered questions.

I cannot wait to see this movie. I'll be going sometime this weekend. :)

Val Trottan

15-May-2003, 04:09 PM

What I don't get — and this will be rather geeky so watch out:

How do people know what they look like?
I mean, if the infants are grown in pods, then transfered into the powerpods, without any real sensory imput from their senses — including sight, how can they formulate a mental self image that resembles their physical forms?
There are no mirrors in the powerpods, and the machines are not present in the pod to feed them altered images resembling their physical bodies — so how do they know?

g99

15-May-2003, 07:35 PM

**Could be a monstrously huge spoiler**

It seems to me that Zion, everyone freed from the matrix is in fact in another matrix for the people that still reject this particular iteration (the sixth one) of the matrix.

Because of the way the architect mixes destruction of Zion, destruction of the Matrix, and because Neo still seems to have some powers they must still be in some sort of machine built maze, they haven't really been freed at all, just changed system.

I think we saw vampire-cide in the movie too. :D

If you read the end of my review, that is exacxtly my thoght. A matrix within a matrix....

Altought i do have the Idea that Neo is not actually "The one". Rahther his son will be. You know Trinity and Neo will have a son and the son will become the savior of all mankind. That seems likely to me.

And remember. We never actually saw the choice that Neo made inside the mainframe. He could of decided to save the Matrix and then fly out to catch Trinity. Or he could of just lefdt. You never really see his choice. It is implied that he chose destruction, but i doubt it.

Tell me did anyone else think the 100 Agent smith fight as hilarious? The whole audience in my theater was cracking up at that point. Just something about it was funny, but i can't put my finger on it.

g99

15-May-2003, 08:49 PM

BA: During the traffic fighting scene Morpheus and a Agent are fighting ontop of a Tractor Trailer. Yet both are unaffected at all by wind.

Lets say the truck was going 60 mph. Have you ever stuck your hand out of the window at that speed? i seriously doubt they would be able to stand ontop of the truck at all, and surely not even fight on it.

SeanF

15-May-2003, 09:15 PM

Val Trottan

15-May-2003, 09:55 PM

Yo g99,
It cannot be his son. Neo is the One. The Oracle said it. So did The Architect.
He ...

Major Dojo Spoilers ....

First — From what one can gather from Reloaded:

1. Neo is an expected anomoly in the Matrix. Perhaps the first "One" was a rouge program like the Twin Wraiths or Mergovian are, but later Ones (it's implied there were five or six previous versions) were human. Neo is just the latest One.

2. The Architect is expecting Neo because it is revealed that the Matrix is cyclic. Morpheus had it wrong in the first Matrix, and apparently so too did Agent Smith 1.0, because it is obviously later than 2199. There were six previous cycles of Zion's destruction and resurrection by design, not just the one inferred from Smith 1.0's perspective.

But here is why it cannot be his son:

The events in Revolution are an immediate continuation of Reloaded. They have one day to save Zion from the machines.

g99

15-May-2003, 10:22 PM

Make sense. It just seemed that the love between Trinity and Neo must mean something more than just a bond to keep eachother alive.

Spoilers...

I did get the cyclical relationship between the architect and Neo (Plus 5). It was interesting to find this out. Plus the fact that each Neo was the exact same looking as the previous. So this brings up the idea that maybe Neo and the crew of the nebacanezzer are not human and actaully are Clones (yah yah, clones are humans too, but i am talking about naturally born). Only the pilot and ship operator was a naturally born human. How can the machines controll these people and how they act?

This might be a by product of the layered Matrix. Where the naturally born humans are not actually Naturally born, but are also enslaved by the machines. The machines allow the rebellion to keep going because it makes the world not perfect and keeps them from finding out the real truth. That all of humanity is actually inside a secondary Matrix. Just for some reason this Neo figured out about the secondary Matrix. Maybe the interaction with Agent Smith also changed Neo in some way. It changed his program and allowed him to be slightly out of synch with the second Matrix. Just thinking out loud here.

Colt

16-May-2003, 02:33 AM

The one reader that actually visits this site does not care right? Right? Are you referring to me? :P It does apply since I have not seen the movie yet and read your review anyway. :)

It sounds like a good movie. One guy at school was talking about how the ending just dropped off at a really major point and something about two arch enemies banding together? I sadly have not had time in a while to watch The Matrix so please excuse me.. Mr Smith is Reeves, right? I keep thinking of the name "Agent Smith" for some reason too.

A Matrix within a Matrix.. A holodeck within a holodeck.. :wink: Except this seems to be much more sinister.

Are you all saying that the drills the machines are using are the cartoon-like depiction of a drill? A cone with grooves cut into it? Something more appropriate would be similar to what we use now to bore out train tunnels and the like. Or even more advanced would be them using lasers to cut down and then removing the cut material. That or the machines could just nuke their way down. I doubt residual radiation affects them, much.

Radiation resistant my butt, if you get nuked, you're going to be dust. I like it. :)

Having weapons with no energy source makes sense, the .50 BMGs. That way the sentinels could not track you by that or know you were about to open up on them. Anyone know what exactly that weapon was in the first movie? The one onboard the hovership I mean. A proton beam? Reminds me of the thing from Voyager: Elite Force. -Colt

Mr. X

16-May-2003, 02:48 AM

No you got it all backwards! :lol:

Mr. Anderson, aka Neo, is Reeves!

Agent Smith is, well, an agent! Or he used to be anyway. :lol:

I like the question about the residual self image. How the hell would you know what you ever looked like?

The question about how the hell did the first create Zion is probably not a plothole as Zion doesn't even exist in the first place.

Tell me did anyone else think the 100 Agent smith fight as hilarious? The whole audience in my theater was cracking up at that point. Just something about it was funny, but i can't put my finger on it.

It was actually... it looked wacky. People flying everywhere. Everyone laughed when it ended. The "Hey don't look at me I didn't let him go" and "So what do we do now.", "let's go have some donuts" kind of ending to the fight was funny.

At least that's what came to my mind when I saw it. :D

DID ANYONE ELSE REALIZE SHE KILLED A VAMPIRE? :D

Bad programs make angels, vampires, ghosts, werewolves...
Notoriously difficult to terminate.
Silver bullet.
Bad vampire movie on television.

Colt

16-May-2003, 03:31 AM

What are you all talking about a Vampire? I suppose that the Matrix could have created Vampires along with Ghosts as special agents (take up more processing power maybe, why there are so few). -Colt

Mr. X

16-May-2003, 04:34 AM

You really have to see it to understand what I'm talking about. :D

g99

16-May-2003, 04:57 AM

Colt: yes they were cartoon like drills.

Mr. X

16-May-2003, 05:48 AM

Additionnally, the drills themselves were "manned", yes actually manned by sentinels... weird of sorts. :D

The weapon in the first movie was, as usual, a magical happens out of nowhere run of the mill EMP.

Not only the "star" ship, but every ship has those. They must have quite a manufacturing industry going for just 250 000 people living under the earth.

Difficult to believe the machines wouldn't actually be shielded against this... Are the machines impervious to the concept of evolution? The sentinel that had this feature will survive? I guess they are impervious to this logic after all.

Another thing is that weird propulsion system that levitates and seems to tend to arc with everything around.

g99

16-May-2003, 07:29 AM

Ahhh...my friend but the sentines do get around the whole EMP thing. In the new Movie they stand just outside of EMP range and lob a guided bomb at the ship. Tactics my frined, tactics.

By the way, if these Machines are not impervious to emp's why don';t the humans just make a to of the emp bombs and set them up all over the globe. Then just detonate them. It would covder the entire globe and not hurt a single human being.

nebularain

16-May-2003, 02:46 PM

Question: If there is a Matrix inside the Matrix thing going on - what is the reality? :o

Val Trottan

16-May-2003, 03:09 PM

I don't think we have seen the "reality" yet — maybe.
Morpheus said in the first movie that he had seen the fields where humans are grown. So, he, at least, has been on the surface to see that. However, if it is really a case of Matrii and not just the singular Matrix, then he could have seen anything they wanted him to see.

One thing that confuses me — was that the Zion Mainframe we saw in that scene with the sterile white room? There were people plugged in in that room. What do you think they were plugged into? If the rebels have to rise closer to the surface in order to broadcast into the machine's Matrix — as they perceive it — then what were these people plugged into?

Hmmm.

And — were the Neos on the screens representing the other 5? Neos which preceeded him into the Architect's domain?
And ... if Neo is the One, and the One is a vital part of the scheme, then why did Agent Smith kill him?
Did he do it because he's programmed to, or did he (or should he) have known that this was all part of the process?
Is he then rebelling against the process?
When he told Morpheus that he was tired of all of it, was he speaking of the whole game the Architect designed, including the Choice?
Hmmm.

kilopi

16-May-2003, 04:22 PM

3. How does a city survive so near the core? It seems to be literally dug into the rock. We even see the rock in some scenes, yet it is not hot, nor is it caving in. What keeps it from caving in?
I haven't seen the movie yet, and I don't remember this from the first movie. Does the movie specify the location near the core of the Earth?
BA: During the traffic fighting scene Morpheus and a Agent are fighting ontop of a Tractor Trailer. Yet both are unaffected at all by wind.
Bad Astronomy? or does BA stand for Bad Acting? :)

Val Trottan

16-May-2003, 07:02 PM

Kilopi ...

Tank does say very clearly that Zion is located "near the Earth's core, where it is still warm."

g99

16-May-2003, 07:05 PM

g99

16-May-2003, 07:07 PM

And — were the Neos on the screens representing the other 5? Neos which preceeded him into the Architect's domain? .

See what got me was that he said there were only 5 before him. Yet there were many more screens and each had a individual reaction. So either there are more than 5 incarnations of "The One", or the Architect was lying and trying to trick Neo.

Val Trottan

16-May-2003, 09:05 PM

I personally took it as being the same Neo (since the scene continually zooms into one screen and that becomes the scene until the next zoom) and what is seen is the numerous depictions of the singluar Neo displaying all possible reactions to what The Architect is stating.

To explain that better, some Quantum theories suggest that for every action there is an infinite number of reactions. This gives rise to the thoughts of a multiverse where an action creates a new reality based on individual and alternate reactions.
Perhaps the screens represent these infinite (or near infinite) reactions — something that The (singular) Archtect can then add into the Matrix as he sees them, seeming to give him the power of sight he seems to possess.
It's all numbers, probabilities and statistics after all.

Also, if they are all clones, as they should be if birthed as they show, then there should be any number of Mr. Andersons (maybe with different names), perhaps even existing at the same time in a different part of the Matrix ... all who have the same possibility to become the "One." This gives credence to the theory presented that the screens show previous 'One's and their reactions.
But since there are more than 5 screens, as you point out, I think my initial thought when I saw it (listed above) is more probable.

But since the clone thing is true, and there are more Neos, all they have to do is wait and see which one follows the correct line of code throughout his life — making the right series of choices — making him the One.

I'm sort of bummed that the Oracle was so intwined in the inner workings of the Matrix — although she may be unaware of the true roll of Neo, the One and The Architect.

Colt

17-May-2003, 04:38 AM

I think that the Nebuchadnezzar could have been levitated by some form of magentic levitation. Note: Not anti-gravity. It has been shown that magnetic levitation (repelling against the Earth's magnetic field) is possible (someone keeps mentioning wrapping a ship in a coil of wire and shielding one part of it or something..). I also think that it might be jet propelled, the only thing I can think of beside them figuring out how to propel it using the maglev technology as well as float it. Plus Cypher mentions that his brew is good for killing braincells and degreasing engines (jet engines?).

As for the sentinels, they might just use some sort of jet system to fly; this would explain why they zip around so much and when they land on the Nebuchadnezzar they slam down on to it going at a high speed. They also wave their tentacles around, maybe to maneuver.

The Matrix (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?lastnode_id=1097009&node_id=61306) on Everything2.com I like the listing of the references in the second post. I love Easter Eggs in films, books, games, etc. My favorite computer game series, Fallout, is full of them.

As for giant EMP weapons.. The one in the Nebuchadnezzar is just bridging some capacitors ( I think). For the size of the one you are talking about you would need to use nuclear devices.

I hopefully will see the movie this weekend some time. -Colt

Colt

17-May-2003, 04:39 AM

I think that multiple Matrix would be calle "matrices". -Colt

Colt

19-May-2003, 06:35 AM

I saw the movie earlier with two of my friends, and now my thoughts.

1. how do you permanently scour they sky? It is listed as 100 years that Zion has been there and i would think that the fight would be even longer than that. What would blacken the sky for so long? Nuthing that i can imagine. Even a Nuclear winter can't do that.

If Zion and Reality are inside of a second matrix then it would not matter would the skies could do in reality, they could just continue to stay scorched.

From the review:
"And yes it is bulletproof. It is shot hundreds of times and nothing happens to it except a few new air holes. You know for computer programs, the agents are horrible shots."

Have you ever tried to fire a UMP45 while standing in a car, while it is swerving around at high speeds? Believe me, it would not be easy. It has been shown numerous times that the Agents have no particular advantage at aiming compared to a real person. The car is not armored, AFAIK. It could have been a normal car and held up to that kind of punishment. Most of the shots went into the trunk where they would have stopped. The UMP45 fires a .45" caliber sub-sonic slug which is big, heavy, and slow. Good stopping power but penetration is degraded by its size.

Zion was truly amazing. I really liked the entire design of it and especially the Mech-Guard. :D It is also interesting to see the other designs of hoverships. The Nebudchadnezzar is a Mark 3 for example.

Agent Smith is my favorite character.. The fight scene with him was very funny. Me and my friends laughed out loud at that point.

I now understand what you all were talking about vampires and ghosts. The Wraiths were cool, the concept of them. As for the guy which the Maiden ( :P ) shot with the silver bullet.. He would have been a werewolf. Silver bullets have classically been the killing agent of werewolfs where stakes have the killer of vampires.

My thoughts on the nature of reality: Maybe Neo is some sort of program within the Matrix which attaches itself to a human at birth and takes over, sort of like what Agent Smith did. Or Neo is just part program part man.

The only ways which I can explain what happened after the Nebuchadnezzar was destroyed ( :cry: ) are thus:
Zion is indeed another level of a multi-layered matrix and Neo's control has somehow seeped over into it.
Neo has telekinetic powers (this being why the Matrix chose him to be the One) and he just downright fried the sentinels.
Neo's genetic makeup is somehow associated as being a controller within the Matrix and so when he basically gave the command for them to stop they had to obey.

I think that the Matrix works something like this: The Matrix is truly what is it is named to be, a matrix, a construct. Within this matrix are set programs for everything. The air, birds, trees, buildings, etc. The Agents are semi-autonomous programs which operate within it. They can break free if they are to be deleted and contiue on. The reason Smith is still after Neo is that he is angry for having been forcefully freed from the Matrix. I liked the way in which Smith can just kick the living daylights out of the normal agents now. :P

The sex scene was not needed if you ask me, or at least not such a long one. I fel that the rave scene was also a bit long for what it was. It's purpose in the movie? To show that the Natural humans are very different from those that are still within the Matrix.

I would agree with g99's rating of 89/99 for the movie. It has to be one of the best I have ever seen. :D -Colt

kilopi

19-May-2003, 07:25 AM

Actually grapes you just brought up something i have been thinking of for the last few days. I think the 'Bad Astronomy" (or BA) term has become a catchall term now instead of just pertaining only to Astronomy. Now it can be used for all mistakes in movies.

Well just my opinion.
Interesting theory. But I'm not so sure that you could find even one more example of that. It would have had to slip by me, and that's pretty unlikely.

Avatar28

19-May-2003, 02:27 PM

My friends and I was discussing the movie enroute to a party Saturday night and had a couple of thoughts, particularly when combined with some of the discussion here.

Basically, here's what I think is going on. Zion really IS the real world, it's not inside another Matrix. When Smith shows up at the beginning, I think they're inside the Matrix. Remember, they're all on different ships, but the Matrix makes it possible for them to plug in an meet wherever they want. You'll note that just after that scene, you see a shot of Neo, Trinity, et al plugged in.

After the meeting with the creator, whatever he's called, they never actually exit the Matrix. Instead they just go do a different area of it I think. You'll remember that Neo stopped and said "It's different this time." So obviously he wasn't previously able to sense things in the real world like he could there at the end. That leaves us with two conclusions. A) something was changed about him that he was able to do that in the fake real world when he couldn't before or B) after the mainframe he didn't really leave the Matrix. There's a lot that's left unanswered of course. Hopefully it will be in the next one. Playing Enter the Matrix may help with that too. I'll be picking it up on Friday I hope.

Hypatia

19-May-2003, 06:50 PM

What are you all talking about a Vampire? I suppose that the Matrix could have created Vampires along with Ghosts as special agents (take up more processing power maybe, why there are so few). -Colt

If I recall, ghosts, vampires, etc were "glitchy" programs (like the deja vue cat in Matrix 1). It reminds me of mainframe systems where several programmers design & write small segments of the larger program - they don't always mesh or do what you expect. And some seem to have taken on a life of their own as sentient & self-willing constructs. Is the Oracle serving the Matrix or a "rebel" program aiding Zion?

For special effects, M2 was great - as a movie it sort of sucked. Neo can fly but sticks around to fight 100 Smiths in hand to hand combat? Just an excuse for a cool fight scene. And "To be continued" at the end - gees, it was like a made-for-TV mini-series!

And what really irked me.... get ready for this....Neo comes out of his quarters at Zion wearing his ripped, old dirty shirt. O.K., when you are trapped on a ship for years, your clothes show their age. But when they found Zion, couldn't he just drop by the laudromat or buy a new shirt? I noticed the the inhabitants were wearing nice duds.

M1 had a gritty reality; M2 was working overtime to keep that up that image. Instead it should have moved on, if you get my drift.

g99

19-May-2003, 07:35 PM

I saw the movie earlier with two of my friends, and now my thoughts.

If Zion and Reality are inside of a second matrix then it would not matter would the skies could do in reality, they could just continue to stay scorched.

never thought of that. hmm....

From the review:
"And yes it is bulletproof. It is shot hundreds of times and nothing happens to it except a few new air holes. You know for computer programs, the agents are horrible shots."

Have you ever tried to fire a UMP45 while standing in a car, while it is swerving around at high speeds? Believe me, it would not be easy. It has been shown numerous times that the Agents have no particular advantage at aiming compared to a real person. The car is not armored, AFAIK. It could have been a normal car and held up to that kind of punishment. Most of the shots went into the truck where they would have stopped. The UMP45 fires a .45" caliber sub-sonic slug which is big, heavy, and slow. Good stopping power but penetration is degraded by its size.

never argue with a firearms expert. :-) Mind if i add your quote to my review?

I now understand what you all were talking about vampires and ghosts. The Wraiths were cool, the concept of them. As for the guy which the Maiden ( :P ) shot with the silver bullet.. He would have been a werewolf. Silver bullets have classically been the killing agent of werewolfs where stakes have the killer of vampires.

actually i think i missed the whole vampire/wearwolf thing. At what part of the movie did they take place? Were the albino twins one of them?

My thoughts on the nature of reality: Maybe Neo is some sort of program within the Matrix which attaches itself to a human at birth and takes over, sort of like what Agent Smith did. Or Neo is just part program part man.

The only ways which I can explain what happened after the Nebuchadnezzar was destroyed ( :cry: ) are thus:
Zion is indeed another level of a multi-layered matrix and Neo's control has somehow seeped over into it.
Neo has telekinetic powers (this being why the Matrix chose him to be the One) and he just downright fried the sentinels.
Neo's genetic makeup is somehow associated as being a controller within the Matrix and so when he basically gave the command for them to stop they had to obey.

Interesting theory. I like the attached program idea.

But, how does this explain that all of the previous versions of "The One" looked exactly like Neo?

I would agree with g99's rating of 89/99 for the movie. It has to be one of the best I have ever seen. :D -Colt

thanks. :-)

Avatar28

19-May-2003, 10:33 PM

I now understand what you all were talking about vampires and ghosts. The Wraiths were cool, the concept of them. As for the guy which the Maiden ( :P ) shot with the silver bullet.. He would have been a werewolf. Silver bullets have classically been the killing agent of werewolfs where stakes have the killer of vampires.

Not always. In some mythos, vampires are also allergic to silver and are killed by it, thus a silver bullet would also kill them. Still, since a silver bullet is the classic weapon against a werewolf, it stands to reason that they may have been werewolves.

Colt

20-May-2003, 01:47 AM

never argue with a firearms expert. :-) Mind if i add your quote to my review?

I don't mind. :)

actually i think i missed the whole vampire/wearwolf thing. At what part of the movie did they take place? Were the albino twins one of them?

Yeah, the Wraiths (twins) were two of the exile programs. The Oracle talks about these programs and explains what they are. She said that when a program became obsolete or became sentient it had the choice of going rogue and hiding within the Matrix or being deleted. The French Guy, the Maiden, all of his guards were rogue programs. I think that the Wraiths might have been prototype test agents which went rogue; they had straight razors btw, not switchblades. When they walk into the room, right after Neo and the Maiden kiss, the two men that are standing there are apparently werewolves, or glitchy programs. She pulls out a quad-deringer and shoots one of them in the head and tells the other one to run away. She specifically mentions after that that it was a silver bullet.

Interesting theory. I like the attached program idea.

But, how does this explain that all of the previous versions of "The One" looked exactly like Neo?

Perhaps the Attached Program picks out the person with a specific DNA pattern (maybe someone with a telekinetic gene?). The movie never says that those images of Neo are the previous ones. I lean more toward the idea that they display all of his possible reactions, maybe for the Architect.

The one main problem that I have always had with The Matrix is this: Since the Matrix is set in our own time, does technology advance? What happens if it does? Does the Matrix somehow supress the technology? Perhaps the reason for the multi-layered matrix (MLM) is that within each matrix there have been succesive matrices developed. Maybe this is why the architect has mentione previous Ones..

By the way, you spelled "The Matrix" wrong in your review title. :) -Colt

g99

20-May-2003, 02:20 AM

Done colt. See your title too. I took a little liberty, but i don't think you would mind. :-)

Colt

20-May-2003, 02:59 AM

I don't mind. :D I just realized that I made a typo and instead of "trunk" I typed truck.. which might confuse some people. You can change it if you want. -Colt

frenat

20-May-2003, 04:13 AM

I still assumed they were vampires since they were watching "The Brides of Dracula" when they entered the room. But yeah the method used to kill was more suited for a werewolf

MoMo

20-May-2003, 06:48 AM

actually i think i missed the whole vampire/wearwolf thing. At what part of the movie did they take place? Were the albino twins one of them?

The Merovingian's bodyguards were the vampires/werewolves, as already mentioned. The Twins were the ghosts and the Merovingian himself was a programmer, or hacker. I thought this entire scene (Merovingian - French guy) was very interesting, especially the part where he gives that lady in the restaurant a piece of cake, or from a hacker perspective, a virus. Virii seem to be a reoccuring theme in this series. Neo infects Smith, Smith infects other programs/agents, Smith spreads a virus to the outer Matrix (the guy with the goatie), then Persephone kisses Neo. I've seen it mentioned in other discussions that the Persephone kiss was another virus being spread and thought this was an interesting idea.

I also like the idea of a Matrix within a Matrix. This is what I believe is going on. Someone mentioned above that quantum theories suggest infinite reactions, but I also think it's possible that the programs within the Matrix are predicting based on their advanced algorithms. This is why the Oracle always seems to know what's going to happen. The council also seems to know something is going on. If you think about it, the Architect says something about Neo choosing 23 individuals to rebuild Zion. That's about the size of the council. It also makes me wonder who built Zion in the first place. The machines? I think I need to watch this movie a few more times to really comprehend what's going on. There's so much there. Good stuff.

BTW, did anyone else notice Persephone's (Monica Belluci's) see thru dress? MUFF!

Avatar28

20-May-2003, 02:56 PM

Val Trottan

20-May-2003, 05:02 PM

Points:

1. Bram Stoker's Dracula is a being which can turn into vapor, a bat and a wolf. Vampires, or rather, classic vampires and werewolves were one in the same until it was separated into two separate beings sometime later.
Silver as a weapon was strictly for werewolves, but more modern incarnations have remelded the two beings, with "what's good for the goose ..." being the rationale for silver kills both.
As I understand it.

2. As I understand the Matrix now, after seeing Reloaded, I picture it as two "rooms."
Picture it like I do to understand:
*All humans are in powerplants.
*All humans exist in the Matrix.
*There is no one "outside."
*The Matrix is compartmentalized into two separate universes: The fictionalized real world and the fictionalized matrix world — which I will refer to as rooms from now on. I picture them side by side, although that in itself is not needed. It's all inside a massive construct.
*Hardlines run between the two rooms.
*All humans start off in the Matrix Room.
*Humans "freed" into the "real world" are actually transfering from the Matrix Room to the Real Room.
*The "real world" may very well look like its depicted, but that's all it is: a depiction.
*This is why Neo's power transfered. *Also why Smith could transfer.
*The Oracle is neither good nor evil. It (she) is just part of the process which was set up by the Architect to keep the Rooms viable.

3. Questions
*Is the Merovingian human?
I first thought he, like Smith, was a rogue program, although there is the part where he is compared to Neo. Perhaps he was a previous "potential" but chose to remain in the Matrix, to mold it and play with it at will instead of following the path of The One.
More fun that way — evident in his cake program.
*What is Agent Smith's motivation and/or intentions? Is it just a "personal" vendetta against Neo?
*Why are the agents trying to kill Neo in the first place? If Neo is The One (which we have every reason to believe he was — although he didn't do what The One was supposed to do: reset Zion), and The One, as revealed, is an important part of the cyclical Matrices (I still prefer Matrii), then why was he persued?
Was it because conflict molds The One? Does he have to feel his life is in clear danger in order to follow the proper series of choices which leads him into possessing The One Code? Doesn't being The One mean that you understand there is no danger?
Or — does that explain why the other agents could never seem to hit their mark?
Except Smith of course.

I'm curious to see exactly where they go with all these changes.
I heard Revolutions will not take place in the Matrix. If what I speculate above is accurate, then they won't need to. They could have an all out flying slo-mo fight in Zion.

One last question/point:

If the white room which is supposedly Zion's mainframe is just that, those humans seemed cleaner and purer than any others depicted. Perhaps they ARE in the real world and not just the Real Room. None of the technology we have seen so far matches that white room. Not even the hovercrafts have such high-tech.
It could be that the end of this trilogy has a grand surprize in store — like the Earth isn't scorched at all — or something as major.

Hmmmm.

Avatar28

20-May-2003, 06:17 PM

Now THAT would be an interesting surprise indeed and a great twist at that. Or perhaps that the "humans" are actually just sentient programs as well?

A couple more thoughts. We never actually see smith in the "real world". At the beginning of the movie, I believe they are in the Matrix. Hence why Smith took over that one guy just before he escaped and then proceeded to pick up the phone and exit. I believe that the Smith program "overwrote" his mind and thus Smith now exists in the real world in the guy's body. Effectively, he is possessed. With all this metaphysical symbolism in the movies, that may even be exactly what it's supposed to be, with Neo "throwing out the demon" a la Jesus Christ.

The agents are trying to kill neo for the same reason they're trying to kill all of the others. He knows too much. Just because creator wants Neo to be there doesn't mean that the Matrix itself approves. If the matrix itself has indeed achieved sentience then it may not want him alive to change things. Then too we still don't know if the real world is really real or not. I'm still somewhat inclined to think that it is simply because Neo says that something "changed" after the Nebuchenezzar was destroyed.

SKY

20-May-2003, 08:49 PM

A couple more thoughts. We never actually see smith in the "real world". At the beginning of the movie, I believe they are in the Matrix. Hence why Smith took over that one guy just before he escaped and then proceeded to pick up the phone and exit. I believe that the Smith program "overwrote" his mind and thus Smith now exists in the real world in the guy's body. Effectively, he is possessed.

I was thinking the same thing concerning agent Smith. The Oracle said that Neo has the gift of "sight" when he explained his dreams of Trinity. Then I thought back to when he had the dream about agent Smith taking over the human body and escaping the Matrix. So, my interpretation was that this guy then became agent Smith in the "real" world, especially after he attempted to kill Neo.

Another thought on the Matrix inside a Matrix...I saw in the movie were this is insinuated (when Neo stops the sentinels from attacking them), but it also looked like the way the sentinels were stopped was with something shorting them out (EMP maybe?) just before they reached him, and just after he passes out, a rescue ship arrives. My thinking is that the rescue ship could have activated the EMP defense giving the impression that Neo stopped the sentinels with his "powers". :-?

On a side note, I loved the movie and think this series will be a classic that will have a type of cult following that the Star Wars and Star Trek series have. :)

Val Trottan

20-May-2003, 09:12 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that when the EMP is discharged, it gets not only the sentinels (or prey) but the ship too.
In other words: It fries all electrical circuits, even the ones which generated it.

g99

20-May-2003, 09:28 PM

hmmm...i just heard on the news that a boy killed his parents and his excuse was that he was in the Matrix and was trapped. uhhgg.... :-(

-------------------------------------------------

Colt: the one thing with the Agents is that they are programs. Have you ever played a online FPS? Several (a-hole) people resort to programs called "Aim-Bots". these are small running "trainers" that help the aim of someone beyond what is normally possible. A example is that this computer program can help you hit someone from halfway across ther map if you are aiming near the guy. Why can't the Agents have this program?

--------------------

Plot twists: I really do not think that they will do a whole "it was all a dream" or "all humans are actually programs" idea. It is too cliche and i think a stupid ending. It would be better to find something tottaly unexpected like Agent Smith helping Neo in the end to defeat the machines. or that the real war against the machines is going on in the real world and the matrix withing the matrix is one of the frontline fronts.

------------------------------

Neo's ability in the end was to me evident of the layerd matrix and not due to the recue ship. If the rescue ship ignited its EMP it would be stuck to with all of its circuits shorted out for a while and would not immediately be able to float in and save them.

---------

With the Kiss: i do think something was passed on into Neo by that kiss. Possibly a program that changed him from the Architects origonal design. Remeber that architect kept on saying how this version of Neo was different from the rest? or the encounter with Agent smith too. hmm...

.

Val Trottan

20-May-2003, 09:47 PM

g99

20-May-2003, 10:25 PM

Hey g99 ...

You think that the change (alledgedly) passed to Neo via Persephone's kiss is why he can sense the Sentinels? Perhaps she gave him the ability to code in both Matrii?
Maybe she is like the Agent Smith 1.0 as seen in the original and she too is tired of the whole scheme and wants it to end or go onto something better.
I mean the programs are sentient. They have a "right" to live. Maybe they all secretly want to be free to do whatever they want and not to continue the charade invented to keep human minds occupied while they languish in the powerpods.
Hmmm.

Interesting...A very good posibility. I will have to see the movie if something is seen passed between them. Maybe a small sound or something.

You know now that i think about it, she did freshly put on lipstick right before, maybe it was special lipstic. i think your idea does mean something. :-)

And ... I ask again:

Is the Zion Mainframe — The White High-Tech room with operators using floating touch "screens" — in the Matrii or is it in the true real world?
They looked too clean and the technology looked too sophisticated to be in any of the rooms dug into caves underground.

Your thoughts?

I don't know. They did controll the doors and access to Zion. I just think it was what it was, a cleanroom. If it was the real world, they sure did like to focus on Zion alot. Almost all of the screens were of Zion.

Val Trottan

20-May-2003, 10:35 PM

I'm thinking also that the humans would have to take great steps for keeping things from the machines.
Perhaps the inhabitants of Zion ... especially those who visit The Matrix to fight and free people ... are unaware that they still are connected to a Matrix of sorts — even if that matrix is controlled by them.
If it is true that the Earth is ruined — a desert with a climate inhospitable to man — they would HAVE TO remain in the Matrix to survive at all. I thought this when I saw the original — especially following Neo's speech to the machines at the very end. He basically implies that no one is leaving the Matrix, but it would change to allow them to do what they want and not what the machines want them to do. (An anarchist's view of the world, which would fail faster than the Matrix, but that's besides the point.)

When I see that movie again soon, I'm going to see how many people are hooked into the system in that clean room. I'm wondering who they were and what they were doing there.

Thoughts on that?

Val Trottan

20-May-2003, 10:44 PM

Avatar28

20-May-2003, 10:50 PM

Has anyone played the Enter the Matrix videogame yet? I understand that it's supposed to add a lot to the story and fill in a lot of missing bits. Maybe that's one reason some holes were purposefully left, in order to get people to buy the game?

Never fear, I will be purchasing it come probably tomorrow evening or Thursday. I just have to figure out if I want to get it for PC or my X-box. PC should have better controls and graphics (although I did play the x-box version for a few minutes and the controls seemed perfectly suited to a console (being that so much is hand to hand combat, maybe moreso than for PC) so that may not be an issue), X-box has Dolby Digital surround.... Grrrr. Gonna be a tough decision.

g99

20-May-2003, 10:58 PM

i am getting the game next week after i beat GTA: vice City for the pc. :-)

P.S. the PC version will have better graohics and the same sound quality if you have surround sound speakers (or even better 5.1).

Avatar28

20-May-2003, 11:08 PM

I've got surround sound (Klipsch ProMedias) but nowhere to put the rear speakers so I'm stuck in 2 channel mode there. My sound card is an SB Live! which is okay, but not the best. I guess the real kicker is the fact that my home theater system consits of about $2000 worth of audio equipment so there's a pretty good difference in quality there.

g99

20-May-2003, 11:51 PM

i have sb Live! too. :-) but i have 5.1 speakers and just screwed mine into the back wall. They are a little far away for my liking, but the best i can do.

Colt

21-May-2003, 12:51 AM

I have played many FPS and I know what you are talking about. This is the Matrix though, not a game.

It annoys me that they might have left important plot points out of the movie just so that you would have to buy the game. I doubt most people would the money to have a system to play it (either console or PC) and to buy the game, I certainly do not at the moment.

I think that the White Room was just a part of Zion's Mainframe, they plug into it so that they can have better and easier control over the machines of Zion. They were the same people who were plugged in as were in the White Room.

I think that Smith might eventually start helping Neo for one reason or another.

I too thought that the lipstick that Persephone put on might have been representative of something, I thought poison at first but decided that it must be something else.

I have 4.1 Gaming Sound (what my brother calls it), one small speaker on each side of the monitor and a subwoofer under the desk. It gets me by.

"hmmm...i just heard on the news that a boy killed his parents and his excuse was that he was in the Matrix and was trapped. uhhgg.... "
This shows why some people should not be allowed to continue their genetic line.. You don't blame it on the movie or a game, you put the blame where it is due, the person's own stupidity. Just my thoughts.

-Colt

g99

21-May-2003, 03:05 AM

I have played many FPS and I know what you are talking about. This is the Matrix though, not a game.

but isn't softawre the same all around? It just ends up being a bunch of computer code in the end either way you look at it. :-)

.

It annoys me that they might have left important plot points out of the movie just so that you would have to buy the game. I doubt most people would the money to have a system to play it (either console or PC) and to buy the game, I certainly do not at the moment.

I agree, and i definitely think it is just to make money. But at least the game is supposed to be good and fun to play and not a P.O.S. like the adaptation to other games.

"hmmm...i just heard on the news that a boy killed his parents and his excuse was that he was in the Matrix and was trapped. uhhgg.... "
This shows why some people should not be allowed to continue their genetic line.. You don't blame it on the movie or a game, you put the blame where it is due, the person's own stupidity. Just my thoughts.

-Colt

That's what the newscaster said. He thought that it was just a excuse to plead insanity. At least he won't be having kids. That is one happy thought.

g99

21-May-2003, 08:36 AM

Colt:

i would just like to add: if i came out bad or snippy in my description of a "aim-bot" i am sorry. I was trying to describe it to you and i did not know if you knew what it was. So sorry if i did. :(

--------------------------------
So what does evereryone think the real world looks like?

Personally i think it looks similar to the "real world" of the movies and not the world inside the Matrix. O.K. that was confusing. Let me try again...The world of Zion is probobly more realistic to me as a image of what the real real world looks like than the Matrix world.

I feel that there are real real world (o.k. for short: "R.R.W.") humans that are free and fighiting the Matrix. Maybe in the final movie Neo or someone will become freed into this world. Maybe some other character and the storyline will be left for the novel series that is bound to become popular once the first books come out. The machines in the R.R.W. are probobly more machine like and less stylish than the Machines of the layerd Matrix.

This has been brought up before but i wouldd like to ask again (i forgot who origonally asked it): Do you think hiumans power the R.R.W like they do in the Zion world? ?

g99

21-May-2003, 11:08 PM

I just want to say that GameSpot gave the game version of the movie a really bad rating. The review was very mean. They said the game was very rushed and has more bugs than there should of been given the money and time built into the project. I have found almost all of GameSpots reviews dead on in what they say for all of the games i play.

Colt

22-May-2003, 04:02 AM

No, you did not come off as snippy. Sorry if I sounded short, I was tired and I had to get off the computer to work on it some more.

I agree with you that if it is a multi-layered matrix that the RRW machines will look much more mechanical (sort of like Zion) rather than the sleek designs of the sentinels.

I keep forgetting to mention this *bangs head on desk for it* but apparently in the original script the humans were not to be used as a power source (this explains why it does not make sense to us) but as a co-processor in something like a beowulf cluster! :o Now that makes sense to me since they could generate power (even for what they are doing) by using nuclear power and other forms.

From what I have heard from people at school (hearsay) is that it is really tight.. Thought this is coming from people who are not all that intelligent for adept at computers. Still, I wish I had the money to buy that and C&C Generals, right now I am just trying to get Generals. :( -Colt

g99

22-May-2003, 04:08 AM

Definitely get C & C Generals. That is a very good game and alot of fun to play. I love playing as the GLA. :-)

[dang hit send button to soon:]

So ther orgonal script was going to have the humans as extra processoers for the Matrix? So basically a biological machine that uses the human brain to calculate and store information?

That would be intetesting. If a human died, than that machine would loose that information and knoledge. So it could be a hunt to eliminate the humans who store certain information and eliminate them from the Matrix. If they eliminate that human then the matrix is that much weaker. You can get into the whole morality question of: "How many people is it right to kill in order to save humanity?" or something like that. Hmmm...I like it.

SeanF

22-May-2003, 02:37 PM

If a human died, than that machine would loose that information and knowledge.

Nah, not if they're using RAID-3. Or would that be RAIH, or RAIB maybe? :)

TimH

22-May-2003, 03:26 PM

Sheesh ... I got so caught up I forgot to explain about the Matrii ..

Alright ... as I said ... maybe the people (including Morpheus, Neo, Niobe, Trinity, etc.) are purposely kept in the dark to the fact that they are in their own Matrix — a Matrix controlled by humans outside in reality — so if they are turned, they will not spill the beans to the machines.
I think I'm reaching here, but ...

Hmm.

I have to disagree with the matrix in a matrix theory. What is the basis of that idea? I had a similar discussion with some friends at work and they felt that the ending (Neo zapping a sentinal) showed that they are not in the 'real world' Since the movie ends not long after it is tough to argue convincingly one way or the other.

Let's keep in mind that when Neo defeated Smith at the end of the 1st movie he did something to alter Smith's programming that neither Smith nor Neo completely understood. That let Smith become independent of the Matrix. He can ignore instructions and as we all know, duplicate himself. Who is to say the process didn't go both ways? Maybe the temporary merging (for lack of a better word) did something to change Neo as well?

And to answer a few questions:
How do we get our Self image? There are mirrors in the Matrix, right? The Matrix could know what we look like (routine scans of pods by some other form of machine we haven't seen?) and then simply pass that information to our brains. Or, that information can simply be passed to us from other people in the Matrix sort of like a shared file on a network drive.

Someone, I forget who, said there was a magical EMP in the 1st movie, well, not exactly. When the Sentinels began to track the ship Morpheous said 'Tank, power up the EMP' So the ship has a means of creating the pulse.

Another comment was on the industriousness of Zion considering they created all the ships used by the resistance. That too is wrong. In the 1st movie, as Neo tours the ship for the first time, they show the dedication plaque which has a launch date of 2060 something. Probably dating to some point before the war with the machines started. IMO the hovercraft's 'nodes' arching; well I have two points here, 1st maybe the arching is part of what makes the hovercraft hover and 2, it was a pretty spiffy visual effect and effects are one of the bigger selling points of the film

And as for using terrible science (using humans as power) I agree completely that there would be much simpler means to generate the needed power but emm, plot device...

I agree though that there is still quite a bit that hasn't been explained, but there is another movie coming. If everything was solved in the second, it would be a touch difficult to sell tickets to the 3rd.

Lastly, (no attempt to flame here, sorry if I offend anyone) but going to a film like The Matrix and nitpicking the science behind it is a little silly IMO. I see films like that as mindless fun. I can turn off my brain for an hour or two, look at exciting chase scenes, outstanding visual effects and (with some suspension of disbelief) enjoy an entertaining story. I realize the central point (humans as batteries) is nightmarishly bad, and the machines probably should have gone with geo-thermal, or nuclear power, but, well that movie was called Terminator.

kilopi

22-May-2003, 04:00 PM

going to a film like The Matrix and nitpicking the science behind it is a little silly IMO. I see films like that as mindless fun.
Yep. I got three words for you: Keanu, and whoa.

frenat

22-May-2003, 04:05 PM

It is even mentioned in the first movie that the machines use nuclear fusion as well. So why even need humans as power? Entertainment maybe? Lets see how much we can screw with them? As for the image, if the genetic code had been completely mapped and understood, couldn't their image be interpolated from their genetics? Seems like a logical way a machine would do it.

SKY

22-May-2003, 04:17 PM

I agree though that there is still quite a bit that hasn't been explained, but there is another movie coming. If everything was solved in the second, it would be a touch difficult to sell tickets to the 3rd.

First off, Welcome to the board.

This is a great point. There were alot of unanswered questions in the sequel and I think we forget that there is a 3rd movie coming out in November that I think will answer all the questions. I remember seeing an interview with who I think was a producer of the Matrix films and he summed it up by saying that Matrix Reloaded was HALF a movie with the other half coming later. :)

Lastly, (no attempt to flame here, sorry if I offend anyone) but going to a film like The Matrix and nitpicking the science behind it is a little silly IMO. I see films like that as mindless fun. I can turn off my brain for an hour or two, look at exciting chase scenes, outstanding visual effects and (with some suspension of disbelief) enjoy an entertaining story. I realize the central point (humans as batteries) is nightmarishly bad, and the machines probably should have gone with geo-thermal, or nuclear power, but, well that movie was called Terminator.

The nitpicking of the science is just a way of us taking the movie science and learning from it. In other words, we can take what is bad science in a movie and learn the good science of it. When I saw the first Matrix, I thought the idea of using humans for batteries was a neat idea for a plot. It wasn't until I read the review here (http://intuitor.com/moviephysics/matrix.html) that I found out it doesn't quite work. So a little nitpicking can teach alot. Also, I don't think I've seen a post yet that someone said they didn't like this movie. I personally love the movie and the series will probably go down as one of my all time favorites. :)

[spelling]
[more spelling :roll: ]

Val Trottan

22-May-2003, 05:22 PM

I don't think what most of us here are nitpicking ... just discussing issues of a movie in which we found some enjoyment.
Yeah, we could all wait for the answers in the third film, but why wait? Talking is one of the more pleasureable and effective methods of communication.

I have to disagree about an alterior motive on the Neo EMP. It doesn't make any rational sense that he would be able to do this outside the Matrix. He has to be within another or else it ruins the flick. I think that since it did happen at the end that it was clearly implying that he — and the rest — are inside another Matrix and you'll have to wait until part 3 to get verification. This isn't Citizen Cane here ... it's an action flick with bad science.
(There I go NOT nitpicking. Heh.)

Now for my "proof"

Agent Smith transfers into the guy with the goatee (didn't catch a name).
The brain is a collection of cells and chemicals which when in combination produce what we call consciousness. You could go all spiritual and say there's more to that, but I won't.
Nothing other than electrical impulses are collected by the pin inserted into the brain ... and the source of those impulses is the brain itself ... which is "outside" the Matrix. Smith should not have been able to commandeer that guy's brain ... unless they want to say that Smith's code overwrote the goatee guy's brain waves ... but that's too much of a stretch and brings issues of program compatability. Our brains do not work in code like everything in the Matrix does. We work through nodes on cells expressing and accepting chemicals. The guy should remain the guy, perhaps with Smith's information stored within ... but not in a mannner shown in the film.
If they are still in a Matrix outside the known Matrix, then everything is code anyway and rewrites are possible.
However, it would have behooved the Agents to simply pick up the phones instead of cutting hard lines and smashing exits with garbage trucks.
They could have — and would have — infiltrated Zion long before.
But ... that apparently isn't the way the Architect — or the Wachowskis — want it or else we wouldn't have a flick.
Nothing can explain why Neo was able to stop the Sentinels other than the idea that he is still in one form of the matrix ... perhaps one where it is designed to be more difficult to break or bend rules so it doesn't happen ... or simply unquestioned as "reality" because that's the way it was presented and no one else assumes the martix is layered in any way.
They expect one so they act like there is.

I'm just rambling here. maybe there's a gleam of an idea in there.

Y'all tell me.

nebularain

22-May-2003, 05:32 PM

Plus, this is a science board. We do have our moments of posting frivolous information and like to go off on tangents with the movie and TV reviews, but this board is primarily about sharing scientific information and evaluating things from a scientific perspective - with an astronomy focus (that's why this is called the Bad Astronomy Bulletin Board!).

Of course, I am wondering about why you posted.

If you came here because you have an interest in astronomy then Welcome!, stick around and have fun with us.

But if you came here to discuss movies, then you are still welcome, but please do not get on our backs about discussing science (or the lack there of) in the movies, OK? Thanks!

Val Trottan

22-May-2003, 06:08 PM

Are you talking to me?
(More effective if done in a bad version of DeNiro's Taxi Driver persona.)

nebularain

22-May-2003, 08:32 PM

No - to TimH.

Sorry, I thought that was understood. :oops:

freddo

23-May-2003, 04:19 AM

I see no one has answered the Zion control room question... So I'll weigh in here - though I'm loathe to find conclusion in the other confusing parts of the film...

In the first film Neo is trained in the use of the Matrix by a series of 'Constructs.' They are essentially self contained matrices (i reckon this is the coolest way to say it - and correct too :wink: ) in their own right. They do not directly conect into the Matrix itself, have full Human administration over their content and function, and seem to have the ability to interface with the systems of the outside connection which is 'hosting' the Construct.

It seems apparent to me that this is essentially what the conrol room in Zion is... You can see several Operators communicating with the people plugged into the fore-screen chairs... These people are inside Zion's construct, are able to interface with Zion's systems much quicker and more efficiently than by plugging away at a console... Essentially the ultimate GUI for an extremely complex network of systems & controls that would likely encapsulate all of Zion's systems & subsystems. The whiteness of the room with the touchscreens (the Construct) is mirrored in the first film when Neo is first 'uploaded' into the Nebarchadnezzar's Construct. As for the room with the 'operators,' it is more or less a mirror of the 'hacking' deck on the hoverships, but due to the fact it's a fixed installation, it would likely be cleaner and easy to maintain. The technology in that particular room was not impressive - and I think the windows at the back (I could be so wrong here) you can see the hoveship docking bays.

This would also explain why the mainframe of Zion itself is so vehemently defended:

If an agent got the codes to Zion's mainframe? It could destroy us.

Hacking into Zion's mainframe (& Construct) would give access to all systems of Zion.... You could simply turn off the power & ventilation and walk away...

As for the rest of the conjecture, I like the layered Matrices idea, as it explains a lot of the 'crossing over' issues that have been raised by the latest, and is a good plot twist... A good indicator of this:

It was just another level of control.

Something is either genuinely different with Neo this time around (love for one instead of all humans, dealings with smith, other programs telling him this), or this is what he is told to coax him further along the path.... Remember the Architect claims this has been going on for a lot longer than originally thought, and they have become very good at rolling over the 'versions'.

If it is a Matrix removed from the Matrix (the 'real world), then the machines can administrate the environment totally... If that means a permanently scorched sky - so be it... Perhaps the Humans have got it wrong and they are not machine batteries?!?!?! If they are also in a matrix then the information they are fed by the computers can be whatever they deign.... Perhaps the real reason why Zion is near the core is not because they built it after they scorched the skies, but that the skies were scorched, so that was the only place for humans to turn??? Think about it, ensuring that the only place the humans can survive is congregated into a small, localised, fragile area.... Wouldn't that make it so much easer to 'Liquidate' the population every time you roll versions on the Matrices?

That reminds me... when neo defeats all the rogue programs in the room with the swords (you know what I mean), how did he kill the werewolf/vampire dude.... Some coincidence one of those weapons on the walls was made of silver??? Not a common material for a sword..

Finally, any picture of what the ultimate reality beyond the Matrices actually is, cannot be drawn... It is likely that the machines control both Matrices we have seen, but who controls that which is beyond? Is there another Matrix that contains the two we have seen? Are the machines really the ones in control? Is there a reality contested on the other side or has nobody ever been freed (think first iteration of 'the one')?

It was he who freed the first of us.. [Helped us build Zion, showed us the truth]

The rabbit hole goes very deep people... I'm gonna take another red pill later this year, and enjoy the ride...

C.

P.S. In the quotes read "SAID" in place of "WROTE" :)

MoMo

23-May-2003, 02:25 PM

Let's keep in mind that when Neo defeated Smith at the end of the 1st movie he did something to alter Smith's programming that neither Smith nor Neo completely understood. That let Smith become independent of the Matrix. He can ignore instructions and as we all know, duplicate himself. Who is to say the process didn't go both ways? Maybe the temporary merging (for lack of a better word) did something to change Neo as well?

I agree that Smith and Neo were both effected by the encounter, but I still believe that they are in Matrices (Matrix w/in a Matrix). If Neo was able to pick up some of Agent Smith's abilities, then he could very well control Sentinels, but INSIDE of a Matrix. To say that Neo has that kind of power implies that Neo is some kind of God, or manifestation of JC, which would be lame. Also, if Zion was destroyed 5 times, how would it be possible for 23 people to build or rebuild that type of machinery? How was it built in the first place? To me, the evidence points towards the Matrices theory. Of course, it really is difficult to know for sure until the finale comes out. To summarize, here are the possiblities that i've gathered from various forums:

1) Neo is in a Matrix w/in a Matrix
2) Neo has magical "godlike" powers
3) The Matrix felt sorry for Neo and decided to shut down the Sentinels and put Neo in a coma

I would be disappointed if 2 or 3 were true.

Avatar28

23-May-2003, 06:49 PM

Okay, I finished my first go through of Enter the Matrix. It didn't fill in quite as much as I'd like, though I may make more connections between them as I go through as Ghost instead of Niobe and see the movie again.

One thing towards the end did catch my eye, though. Niobe is talking to the Oracle near the end (who, I might add, was changed in appearance by the merovingian for helping Neo). The Oracle tells her that Neo had touched the source code and was changed and that he's now trapped between "your world and ours." That is, the "real world" and the matrix. So that probably explains a bit more.

g99

23-May-2003, 06:54 PM

Great! :-) So that makes things come together more.

How was the game overall Avatar?

TimH

23-May-2003, 08:42 PM

Of course, I am wondering about why you posted.

If you came here because you have an interest in astronomy then Welcome!, stick around and have fun with us.

But if you came here to discuss movies, then you are still welcome, but please do not get on our backs about discussing science (or the lack there of) in the movies, OK? Thanks!

I guess I didn't explain myself clearly enough. It's not that I mind pointing out innaccuracies in films but some movies are a little better suited for that tpe of analysis than others. In my opinion, I Matrix falls in the mindless fun catagory, not the make-you-think category. I think it also should be mentioned that much of the bas science that has been pointed out is tied to plot devices, not just poor research on the part of the creators.

Like I said in my original post I didn't intend to flame or attack anyone. Sorry again if I gave that impression. I enjoy the board and learn quite a bit on the general astronomy topics. I don't generally post there because I am a mere laymen and usuallydon't have anything to add that hasn't already been said by people far more qualified than me.

Thanks for the welcome to the board. I look forward to talking to everyone.

Tim

Val Trottan

23-May-2003, 08:57 PM

Well ... I sure hope they put these things into Revolutions and don't assume that everyone who saw or liked the previous movies are also computer gaming afficianados.
I don't play games. I seriously lack the hand eye coordination for it.

I'm going to get back to my Pong game.

Avatar28

23-May-2003, 09:42 PM

The game was good. There are several bits that help tie pieces of the movie together. For instance, the game begins with you having to rescue a package from the post office that turns out to be the last transmission of the Osiris. Um, you find out that Niobe has the first encounter with the keymaker and Persephone. I haven't gotten all that far with Ghost yet. I'll try to get some more tonight before going back to see it tomorrow. Hopefully I'll come up with some more information then. I believe that the Animatrix episodes, when they come out on DVD, will further shed some light, as will "hacking" the official site.

Speaking of Persephone. She ALSO kisses Ghost (as I understand) AND Niobe. Whoo! :-) She uses almost the same lines too. She talks about that person being in love and then asks them to kiss her like she is their beloved. And the first one is terrible and she tells them that, then they do it again right. Now I'm SURE that the kisses play some important role. But WHAT. And it may have to do with the lipstick, she doesn't put any on when kissing Ghost and Niobe, but she does before kissing Neo and you hear that Matrix coding sound when she kisses Neo but I didn't notice it when she kissed Niobe.

Val Trottan, no worries. The game is not required to understand the movie, just as the game can stand alone from the movie. But without both you're not getting the entire story.

nebularain

23-May-2003, 11:18 PM

OK, Tim - thanks!

Sometimes we can't tell who's friend and who's foe around here. I just wanted to be sure.

Don't worry about not knowing as much as others. Not all things we say are "serious scientific stuff." (Just ask g99 about his self-appointed King of Fluff title! :wink: :P )

But I am going to disagree with you on one point.
In my opinion, I Matrix falls in the mindless fun catagory, not the make-you-think category.

I say the Matrix does make you think! Case in point, look how much of these posts are thinking about why Neo was able to stop the Sentinals! :P (BTW, it doesn't look like it, but that smilie is supposed to be a "raz" face.)

Plus, the post you gave above was very thoughtful.

See, you got more to offer than you think!

g99

24-May-2003, 01:16 AM

Not only am i the king of fluff, i am also the center of the universe. Just incase you ask: No i am not conceited, i'm perfect. :-)

---------------

I missed the preview for Matrix 3 at the end of the credits. what does it show?

Colt

24-May-2003, 05:14 AM

I did explain about the Zion control room earlier but I guess everyone just ignored me.. -Colt

freddo

25-May-2003, 11:16 AM

Ahh yes... Sorry Colt, I seemed to have missed that one!! Obviously I agree with you! :wink:

Incidently the guy shot with the silver bullet in Reloaded is DEFINITELY a werewolf... I was playing Enter the Matrix last night, and the Chapter where you are in the lower levels of the mansion you have to fight actual vampires.. They are all wispy and grey, with long hair... You have to kill them with stakes (or a crossbow, no silver bullets...)! Oh, and quite predictably, the boss at the end of that section is call Vlad!!!

The game is soooo very cool... Anyone who dabbles at all with gaming really should at least hire the game. I love going into bullet time and doing crazy matrix moves, like the neo jumping off the wall and kicking people in the head move, or the cool cartwheels that Trinity does.

C.

Avatar28

25-May-2003, 05:31 PM

Well, having seen the movie again as well as finishing Niobe on the game, I've reached a couple of conclusions.

First, I don't think you have nested matrices. I think that Zion is for real in the real world.

Second, I think that when Neo had to make the choice, he didn't. Remember how he refused to make the choice when talking to the Oracle? Well the Architect tells him that he was supposed to touch the source and remerge some code. I'm pretty sure that he went in there, touched the source, THEN took off like a bat out of hell after Trinity. There are two things that make me think that. 1) When they're talking right before the Nebuchenezzar gets destroyed, it's mentioned that touching the source code would not end the war and it was all a lie. 2) When Niobe is talking to the oracle in ETM, the oracle explicitly states that Neo touched the source and is stuck between the two worlds now.

nebularain

26-May-2003, 02:07 AM

Avatar28

26-May-2003, 02:53 AM

Really? I just saw the movie. It looked to me like he went through the Matrix door. It went like this: he walks to the door, the architect tries to talk him out of it, Neo opens the door and goes thorugh anyway with his last words being that the Architect better hope he not see Neo again. How did you see it different?

Ah, but you never actually see him go to open the door. You see him standing by the door, the next thing you see is the door melting and he comes bursting through it. Secondly, both the oracle in the game and Morpheus in the movie says that he touched the source. That pretty much requires that he did both. Then too, by doing both he is, in effect, NOT choosing, or rather choosing both which wasn't supposed to be possible. The whole theme of this movie seemed to be about control and choice so, again, choosing both and refusing their control also fits.

Of course, the whole thing is odd. Let's see, in the first movie, Morpheus tells Neo that there was One before him who could alter the Matrix; before he died (left, or whatever) he promised the people (of Zion or the Matrix? I don't recall) he would return. The implication was that next time he would defeat the matrix - or at least Morpheus seems to believe that. I'm not sure.

There are implications in this movie that Neo is different from "the others." The French-speaking guy (can't remember the name) notes that, "OK, you have skill!" So, what were the others like then in this regards? Morpheus says the One before could manipulate the Matrix, but the French guy did not give us this impression. I'm confused.

The Architect mentions how Neo is different this time in that he has love (for Trinity). The odd part about this is that in the first movie, Trinity reveals that the Oracle prophesied her (Trinity's) love for Neo. :o Does anyone else pick up on the weirdness of this point? If the Oracle is a program within the Matrix, how would she know this, manipulate this, or whatever?

Well, the oracle is a program that was designed to predict the future with high mathematical precision. She may not be quite 100% but probably close enough that it doesn't matter.

In the first movie, there was definantly a change in Neo after he came back to life. Did the Architect account for this?

I wonder if the other "Ones" were as insecure as this Neo is? (Maybe I'm thinking too much!) But that could be interesting if the "One" program was learning as it went along and managed to change its own program to beat the system. How better to beat the system than to have less confidence so that you question more and weigh your decisions more such that you go against what is expected? (Yeah, maybe I am thinking too much.)

You may be there. I don't know if the architect took it into account, but you notice how the wall of monitors seemed to predict all of his possible reactions, then the movie would zoom in on one monitor because THAT was the action he chose. When the architect gave him that choice, ALL the monitors showed the exact same action of him walking to the door. So obviously it expected him to choose Trinity over the Matrix.

Yes, that control room is very odd. I had forgotten it being mentioned here by the others (I just re-read everything to see if I can pick up loose ends). But I do know when I watched the movie it was strange to see this incredibly advanced technology, as well as some people "hooked up" there, and then to see Zion as being anything but technologically advanced. Even the clothes of the people in the control room seemed out of place with the rest of Zion!

I noticed that myself. Maybe they get some special benefits due to their job? I really don't know there.

Avatar - in the game, the Oracle says that Neo is stuck between the two worlds. Does that necessarily negate the "two worlds" being two different Matrices? (Maybe I'm over-thinking again!)

BTW - the guy that was picked up in the end ("the only survivor"), was that they guy Agent Smith infected before crossing back into the "real" world?

No, it doesn't entirely. And it may BE that they're different Matrices. But after paying more attention to it, my instincts tell me otherwise. Plus, that would be an AWFUL big cop out I think and I'd hope they'd do something better than that.

And yes, the guy at the end is the same guy that Smith "infected." You'll also note that he was going to try killing Neo as he was getting ready to leave Zion but got interrupted.

freddo

26-May-2003, 03:58 AM

Yes, that control room is very odd. I had forgotten it being mentioned here by the others (I just re-read everything to see if I can pick up loose ends). But I do know when I watched the movie it was strange to see this incredibly advanced technology, as well as some people "hooked up" there, and then to see Zion as being anything but technologically advanced. Even the clothes of the people in the control room seemed out of place with the rest of Zion!

Ok, can we just clarify which 'part' of the control room you are referring to? If you are talking about the white room with the female moving those boxes on the touch screen and (heres a clue) looking through the wall at the Nebarchadnezzar, then you are referring to people who are plugged into Zion's Mainframe.... refer my earlier post for a more detailed explanation... Colt has also said the same but elaborated, adding that you can see that same girl laying prone in the 'real world,' on a chair plugged into somewhere (you know where already).

If you're talking about the other part of the control room, then firstly, you can see people laying plugged into a construct of some form.... And secondly, the technology and clothing(?) in that room is nothing special at all....

I think this more or less clears up the matter?

C.

freddo

26-May-2003, 03:59 AM

Oh, and Avatar, I think the whole Matrices concept is ultra-cool, and far from a 'cop-out'.... Each to his/her own i guess...

C.

waynek

26-May-2003, 05:18 PM

Thanks to all those who correctly said that the "white room" in Zion is just a local construct and not a real place or part of "The Matrix". All the confussion was bugging me as I caught up on the thread (now that I have finally seen the movie).

Okay, now on to something that I don't think has come up here yet. What about the beat-up spoon that Neo was given just before he went to see the Oracle? I think this is a major clue, although I haven't quite decided what it means. If it was from the same boy Neo met in the first movie who told him "there is no spoon", it may be a clue that Zion is inside a matrix as well (and thus, the "real spoon" is also not a spoon). At first I thought it was rough because it was home made, but perhaps it's because the boy could bend it with his mind like he was doing inside the Matrix. The evidence seems to be pointing to nested matrices, but I haven't ruled out that it may be yet another attempt at misdirection and the truth is something entirely different from anything we've thought of. :(

Colt

26-May-2003, 11:26 PM

Or my theory that Neo might have some sort of telekinetic powers might be true with certain others also. :P Zap goes the sentinels. -Colt

Timm

27-May-2003, 11:29 PM

What about the beat-up spoon that Neo was given just before he went to see the Oracle? I think this is a major clue, although I haven't quite decided what it means. If it was from the same boy Neo met in the first movie who told him "there is no spoon", it may be a clue that Zion is inside a matrix as well (and thus, the "real spoon" is also not a spoon).

That's good, I'm quite sure now that there are more matrices that the obvious one. Neo couldn't stop the Sentinels like this in the Real world, and the Spoon "prooves" it (at least for me :D).

The Question is - is everything running according to the machines' plan, or not?
Is Mr. Smith (now he's no longer an Agent) a "bug", or is he only the (well planned) pressure Neo needed to "become" the one in Matrix1, is Smith a tool to safely guide and controll the one's development, so the matrix' cycle can start over once more?

Persephones' kiss is also interesting... Maybe she didn't talk about being fed up with the Merowinger, but the Architect, and manipulated Neo - so he can solve the Architects "trap".

Anyway, I'm very curious abaut Revolutions... we'll soon know... in half a year... :-? :o

waynek

27-May-2003, 11:53 PM

I think the new elements (rogue agent Smith, Trinity love interest, etc.) will break the cycle from the past 6 times. Otherwise, the machines will win again and I don't see that happening in the next movie. In a sense, it doesn't even matter too much if Zion is in another matrix or not, they will still have to save it in order to break out of the cycle.

Avatar28

27-May-2003, 11:53 PM

Considering Persephone's kisses with Ghost and Niobe as well and talking about them loving another and wanting them to kiss her like they are kissing their love, I think that there's got to be SOMETHING to that. I'm just not sure what.

lenin

03-June-2003, 12:25 PM

Near the end, the "god"(designer) of the matrix says that if Neo goes through the right door, Matrix will be saved, and 7 men and 14 women will be used to repopulate Zion once it is destroyed....is that really enough to repopulate a city of 250,000?

Alex W.

03-June-2003, 12:39 PM

For one thing, you have to consider that the sky was scorched for six generations of the Matrix... and where do the Zion Archives come from if Zion is destroyed each time? Are they data stolen from the Matrix' own archives?

And the battery thing... it actually makes more sense with the Watchowskis' (reported) original plot, where the humans are a massive paralell processing supercomputer used to create the Matrix itself and provide the machines with something interesting to do. Think Sony's Cell technology, only warmer and more moist... eeew.

Anyhoo, it would fit the "free your mind" thing, as only unplugged humans would have the freed cognative capacity to do the "cool Matrix stuff". Until you're outside, and your brain isn't being used partly as a number cruncher, you can't do the cool stuff no matter how hard you try.

Probably the best interpretations of the Matrix's plot flaws are by Mac Hall comics...

http://www.machall.com/index.php?strip_id=193
http://www.machall.com/index.php?strip_id=194

CthulhuBob

03-June-2003, 11:56 PM

Just thought I would throw my $0.02 (CAN) into the mix. First off, glad to see great minds think alike (or fools stuck in the same rut :) ). I saw Matrix Reloaded twice in two days and I also came to the conclusion that Zion is a secondary Matrix.

But the real reason I wanted to post was in regards to the naming scheme of the movies. Now bear with me here:
1) Persephone: In Greek mythology this was the daughter of Demeter (Goddess of the Seasons) by Zeus (dirty old man and King of the Gods). Hades pined for her so stole her from her mom and took her down to Hades to live with him. This makes Demeter depressed and this is where Winter comes from. Every six months Demeter gets visitation rights and thus we get Spring and Summer. BTW, Persephone was the Goddess of the Harvest and a fertility figure. My guess is the kiss has something to with fertility or growth (I have no idea where to run with that though).
2) The Merovingian: If memory serves this was one of the many Germanic tribes that attacked the Roman Empire. Now how this ties in with Persephone is pretty thin but when a woman was stolen from her people it was called rape in classical myth and when a town was plundered it was also called rape. Plus he has a very big thing for control so my guess is he represents the great corruptor, Santa....uuhhh I meant Satan :lol: . Plus he also represents the Underworld as Hades. Which would explain his position as a crime lord in the Matrix (i.e.Lord of the underworld, weak but I'm sticking to it). So he knows everything but never tells the whole truth.
3) Morpheus: Roman God of Sleep. This seems pretty obvious but in light of the new movie I would say he was called this because despite his brilliance he was asleep when it came to the Real Truth of the One.
4) The Oracle: A bit weaker here but I think she represents the Oracle of Delphi who was notorious for giving 100% accurate predictions that everyone would misinterpret. Good thing they didn't call her Cassandra or else Neo & Co would be totally screwed :) .

I am scrupulously avoiding Christian and Buddhist interpretations here since I have a feeling that could open up a long heated debate (especially in regards to Trinity/Mary Magdalene and The Architect/God...oops guess I just did).

If someone could refresh my memory in regards to the name origin of Niobe that would be greatly appreciated :) .

And one other thing. The Architect mentioned that the machines would be willing to live without human batteries when talking to Neo so I think the battery idea is just another smokescreen for something else (i.e. Massive Human Parallel Processing ...MHPP for short).

Whoo, sorry about the length here.

Avatar28

04-June-2003, 12:57 AM

If someone could refresh my memory in regards to the name origin of Niobe that would be greatly appreciated :) .

Ask and ye shall receive.

Niobe is one of the more tragic figures in Greek myth. She was the daughter of Tantalus and either Euryanassa, Eurythemista, Clytia, or Dione (no one seems to know for sure) and had two brothers, Broteas and Pelops. Niobe was the queen of Thebes (the principle city in Boetia), married to Amphion, King of Thebes.
Niobe and Amphion had fourteen children (the Niobids), and in a moment of arrogance, Niobe bragged about her seven sons and seven daughters at a ceremony in honor of Leto, the daughter of the titans Coeus and Phoebe. She mocked Leto, who only had two children, Apollo, god of prophecy and music, and Artemis, virgin goddess of the wild. Leto did not take the insult lightly, and in retaliation, sent Apollo and Artemis to earth to slaughter all of Niobe's children. Apollo killed the seven sons while they practiced their athletics. The last son begged to be spared, but the arrow had already left Apollo's bow, and the boy was struck dead. Artemis killed the seven daughters with her lethal arrows. (Some versions have a few of the children being spared.)

At the sight of his dead sons, Amphion either committed suicide or was also killed by Apollo for wanting to avenge his children's deaths. In any event, Niobe's entire family was dead in a matter of minutes. In shock, she cradled the youngest daughter in her arms, then fled to Mt. Siplyon in Asia Minor. There she turned to stone and from the rock formed a stream (the Achelous) from her ceaseless tears. She became the symbol of eternal mourning. Niobe's children were left unburied for nine days because Zeus had turned all of the people of Thebes into stone. Only on the tenth day did the gods have pity and entomb her children.

http://www.pantheon.org/articles/n/niobe.html

g99

04-June-2003, 03:02 AM

Hmm.. very interesting CthulhuBob and Avatar. So they have very distinct parallels to historical myths.

---------------------------------------------
So could the human rebellion be the Germanic tibes invading Rome (The Matrix)?

Will the Matrix soon itself have a civil war and split like the real roman empire did (Into Rome and Constantinople)?

This could lead to programs starting to fight themselves. Have Mr. Smith vs. Agents and software vs. softawre in the final movie. The humans will take a sidetrack to the fighting and the Matrix itself will just fall apart.

CryoSkull

04-June-2003, 05:57 AM

Bad Science in the Movie:

If the Machines needed a power source, why did they need to use us, humans to get the energy? Rather, I feel they should have gone in for ANIMALS - which dont think much, like some elepahants or Blue whales (Since the bigger they are, the bigger "Copper-Top"s they are. Lots of energy, and not pesky human minds to look after!

(P.S. I assume that all Animal Species were NOT extinct by then! )

g99

04-June-2003, 06:01 AM

Why keep our bodies alive anyways? Just have brains in vats. That way you waiste as little energy on the rest of the body as possible. All you need are heart lung machines with some ability to inject nutrients.

You can do the same with the animals. .

freddo

04-June-2003, 07:17 AM

If the Machines needed a power source, why did they need to use us, humans to get the energy? Rather, I feel they should have gone in for ANIMALS - which dont think much, like some elepahants or Blue whales (Since the bigger they are, the bigger "Copper-Top"s they are. Lots of energy, and not pesky human minds to look after!

It has been mused by us in this thread, and alluded to in the film, that the battery scenario is just a cover... The original story the Wachowskis were touting was the use of humans as collectives in a super-processor. So the battery story might be a cover in the matrix to hide the fact that the human brain is the organ required.

(P.S. I assume that all Animal Species were NOT extinct by then! )
Humans did apparently 'scorch the sky' (the matrices theory offers a different explanation why this is so), so this is a tricky assumption - there's not a whole lot of plant life that can survive without the Sun, and I don't know of any ecosystems where plants are not required (talking above ground mind you)

Why keep our bodies alive anyways? Just have brains in vats. That way you waiste as little energy on the rest of the body as possible. All you need are heart lung machines with some ability to inject nutrients.

Ahh, but what's to say this is not the case in the real world... Outside the dual matrices we have been shown! That would be pretty hard to free yourself from now wouldn't it?!??!?

You can do the same with the animals. .

Hmm... Would animals be as capable processors than humans?

The Wachowskis have really done it - it's nigh on impossible to draw any conclusions at all without seeing the trilogy in its' entirety!

C.

Odinoneeye

04-June-2003, 09:21 AM

Here's a thought. If there is another matrix, who is to say that is run by machines? Possibly the real culprits behind the whole thing is humans testing other humans. Possibly there are multiple matrices, with different scenarios. Possibly the only true person in the whole movie is Neo and all the rest are computer programs.

I think I've read too much Phillip K. Dick for my own good.

Alex W.

04-June-2003, 11:58 AM

Or, at the end of the last film, Neo wakes up, and it was all a lucid dream...

And he's still late for work at MetaCortex. And then it all starts happening again...

Iain Lambert

04-June-2003, 12:35 PM

OK, a couple of things.

1) I don't think we have enough evidence to dismiss what the guy posessed by Smith was planning as just killing him. You'll notice that he's methodically cut up his right palm first. Its my guess that, just as Smith in the Matrix can posess another with bodily contact, he plans to infect Neo in the real world with a "Smith virus" by the exchange of body fluid (bleeding on his wound). Smith is very clearly a virus within the Matrix, so its obvious to make the leap to biological virus outside it.

2) A big part of what the council member was talking about is the dependance of humans on the Machines, even in Zion. I never did feel comfortable with the "battery" story, and suspect that they are as dependant on us as we are on them in many ways.

3) Neo's stopping the squiddies at the end of the the film doesn't mean anything about the "real world" being an