I have an uncontrollable urge to kill 156,000 turkeys

[parallaxicality]

I really shouldn't be watching the news.

Helloooo H5N1. Welcome to Merrie Englande.

[BigDon]

Better that many turkeys than that many Brits.

[davidlpf]

well not right now but maybe around thanksgiving time.

[mugaliens]

Kill a few now, there will be that much more around Thanksgiving!

:)

[Davros]

Does anyone else think this whole bird flu thing has got a little out of hand? The news reports of 130 people being killed as a result of the virus. 130 people might sound like a lot. If it were 130 people in the same town, it would be. But 130 people WORLDWIDE! I'd be willing to bet more people were killed by hamsters in the same year!
Then of course there's the fact that nobody has proven conclusively that the virus is actually transmissible to humans AND the fact that even if infected turkey meat made it to a supermarket somewhere, any trace of the virus would be destroyed in the cooking process.
Call me cynical but I think this scare has more to do with 24 hour news channels needing something to report than any real cause for alarm.

[davidlpf]

Well there was SARS for Toronto that was blown why out proportion a few years ago as well, the thing with the bird flu is it can become a flu like the 1918 flu that killed millions.

[peter eldergill]

Does anyone remember an old episode of WKRP in Cincinatti which involved turkeys? $40000000 to the person who can quote that episode

(disclaimer: monetary amount may not be exactly as shown)

Pete

[Gillianren]

Actually, one of Alice Cooper's most famous (or infamous) moments comes from the same assumption--they're birds; they can fly! ("Oh, the humanity!")

[SeanF]

Does anyone remember an old episode of WKRP in Cincinatti which involved turkeys? $40000000 to the person who can quote that episode

(disclaimer: monetary amount may not be exactly as shown)

Pete
Well, I'll go for the quote:

"As God is my witness, I thought turkeys could fly!"

[R.A.F.]

I love IMDB.

"WKRP in Cincinnati" (1978) {Turkeys Away (#1.7)}

Les Nessman:
It's flying something behind it and I can't quite make it out. It's a large banner and it says H A P P Y... T H A N K S... giving... from W... K... R... P! What a sight, ladies and gentlemen. What a sight. The 'copter seems to circling the parking area now. I guess it's looking for a place to land. No! Something just came out of the back of a helicopter. It's a dark object, perhaps a skydiver pummeting to earth from only two thousand feet in the air... There's a third... No parachutes yet... They can't be skydivers. I can't tell just yet what they are but... Oh my God! They're turkeys! Oh no! Johnny can you get this? Oh, they're crashing to the earth right in front of our eyes! One just went through the windshield of a parked car! This is terrible! Everyone's running around pushing each other. Oh my goodness! Oh the humility! People are running about. The turkeys are hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement! Folks, I don't know how much longer... The crowd is running for their lives. I think I'm going to step inside. I can't stand here and watch this anymore. No, I can't go in there. Children are searching for their mothers and oh, not since the Hindenberg tragedy has there been anything like this. I don't know how much longer I can hold my position here, Johnny. The crowd...

"...hitting the ground like sacks of wet cement" always cracks me up. Really classic.

[Doodler]

There was some seriously underappreciated acting talent behind the delivery of that little soliloquy with a straight face...

:lol:

[jotdog2]

"As God Is My Witness, I Thought Turkeys Could Fly" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEKxWUCBZk8)

Just classic. :lol:

[BigDon]

Does anyone else think this whole bird flu thing has got a little out of hand? The news reports of 130 people being killed as a result of the virus. 130 people might sound like a lot. If it were 130 people in the same town, it would be. But 130 people WORLDWIDE! I'd be willing to bet more people were killed by hamsters in the same year!
Then of course there's the fact that nobody has proven conclusively that the virus is actually transmissible to humans AND the fact that even if infected turkey meat made it to a supermarket somewhere, any trace of the virus would be destroyed in the cooking process.
Call me cynical but I think this scare has more to do with 24 hour news channels needing something to report than any real cause for alarm.


Davros, you know how folks here like to "correct" folks who are ignorant of photograghy or the engineering involved in going to the moon?

Let me point out some "highlights" of H5N1. With medical treatment AND hospitalization, more than half the people who contract H5N1 die. That's a higher death rate than smallpox. (except for hemorraghic smallpox, which approaches 98%) Now you can catch this from the dander and dried secretions of the infected birds aerosolized into the air. That includes blood. Okay, that said, do your turkey dinners come magically cooked right out of the grocery bag? Or do you have to handle raw and bloody turkey parts like I do? That part of your post tells me you don't do your own cooking. So your wife or mom gets it instead. (Remember the 50% death rate?) But its okay, 'cause you dodged the bullet.

Now I'll assume when you say transmissable to humans you meant person to person. Its obviously transmissable to humans if they can catch it. Just not person to person yet. Well its not yet, but how does that change? The more things that catch it the greater the probability of a mutation that will allow this to happen. This is because when someone or something has more than one type of flu at the same time the virus' will swap chromosomes in the cell. That's the big scare.

And here's some creepy facts about this flu. Animals normally considered immune to the flu are catching it and dying rapidly. Cats large and small, bears, racoons, all animals that scavange dead animals like flu infected birds.

When you talk like that you remind me of a drunk who gasses up his car while smoking a cigarette and saying "Everybody knows the end of a cigarette isn't hot enough to ignite gasoline" Right now we smell smoke in the gas station. Would you wait until we actually see flame?

[peter eldergill]

Due to a miscalculation on my part, I don't actually have $4000000:shifty: , but well done!

A big turkey costs about $40 or so, and a wet bag of cement only costs probably $2.00 (or less) (A dry bag is about $4.00 or so in Canada), due to the fact that a wet bag of cement is not very useful unless used right away!

$40 * 156000 = $6,240,000...what a waste

Pete

[Davros]

Davros, you know how folks here like to "correct" folks who are ignorant of photograghy or the engineering involved in going to the moon?

Well aware of that thanks and I don't mind in the least if I'm shown to be inaccurate about what I say. :)

Let me point out some "highlights" of H5N1. With medical treatment AND hospitalization, more than half the people who contract H5N1 die. That's a higher death rate than smallpox. (except for hemorraghic smallpox, which approaches 98%) Now you can catch this from the dander and dried secretions of the infected birds aerosolized into the air. That includes blood.

Ok so we've establised that this virus is pretty nasty if one happens to contract it. I never disputed that. The point I was making is that out of all the many thousands of people who have come into contact with infected birds (worldwide remember) only 130 of them have died. Also most of them worked in the industry so had a much greater exposure.

Okay, that said, do your turkey dinners come magically cooked right out of the grocery bag? Or do you have to handle raw and bloody turkey parts like I do? That part of your post tells me you don't do your own cooking. So your wife or mom gets it instead. (Remember the 50% death rate?) But its okay, 'cause you dodged the bullet.

Sarcasm noted. I do all my own cooking thanks and I'm well aware how messy preparing a turkey can be. However a good deal of Bernard Matthews (the affected factory in this case) products come pre-cooked and/or processed so consumer risk is reduced right there. In the case of non pre-cooked turkey products, basic food hygene (washing hands etc) would help also.

Now I'll assume when you say transmissable to humans you meant person to person. Its obviously transmissable to humans if they can catch it. Just not person to person yet. Well its not yet, but how does that change? The more things that catch it the greater the probability of a mutation that will allow this to happen. This is because when someone or something has more than one type of flu at the same time the virus' will swap chromosomes in the cell. That's the big scare.

That's the point. It's a scare. I'm not suggesting we all pretend this virus doesn't exist or that poultry producers shouldn't be careful not to allow infection to spread unchecked, what I am irritated by is the media (and by extension the public at large) harping on about a repeat of the flu pandemic the killed millions in the early part of the last century. The average joe on the street is about as likely to die of bird flu as he is likely to be struck by lightning. (maybe even less likely I don't have any statistics handy ;))

And here's some creepy facts about this flu. Animals normally considered immune to the flu are catching it and dying rapidly. Cats large and small, bears, racoons, all animals that scavange dead animals like flu infected birds.

See above - the only point I'll add here is that Racoons etc. aren't renowned for cooking their meat before they eat it.

When you talk like that you remind me of a drunk who gasses up his car while smoking a cigarette and saying "Everybody knows the end of a cigarette isn't hot enough to ignite gasoline" Right now we smell smoke in the gas station. Would you wait until we actually see flame?
I defy anyone to ignite gasoline with any tobacco based product! And for the record I don't drink and drive. I'll just reiterate my point - I'm not against a healthy dose of caution among those in the industry. What I am against is people drumming up fear among consumers about something that is of practically no danger to them.

[Neverfly]

it comes down to the $$ signs.
Like Mad Cows Disease...
How much is Beef up to per pound now-a-days?

[Frog march]

turkey must sure taste nice, if it's worth dying for.....

[BigDon]

Devros, I did drift over towards the snotty side in that post. Sorry, there was no need for that.

I have the very same problem with my own local media. Just last night I went on a rant because a promising young colledge athelete was found dead at the bottom of one of our famous beach cliffs. (120 foot drop)The media reported, "And he had four times the legal limit of alcohol in him!" with a lurid tone of voice. Really? What's the legal limit for being found dead at the bottom of a cliff? I'll have to check the law books on that. I know while driving a motor vehicle the legal limit is .008. And as long as you are not being a public nuisance its not against the law to be drunk. So what legal limit are they talking about?

[Neverfly]

Devros, I did drift over towards the snotty side in that post. Sorry, there was no need for that.

I have the very same problem with my own local media. Just last night I went on a rant because a promising young colledge athelete was found dead at the bottom of one of our famous beach cliffs. (120 foot drop)The media reported, "And he had four times the legal limit of alcohol in him!" with a lurid tone of voice. Really? What's the legal limit for being found dead at the bottom of a cliff? I'll have to check the law books on that. I know while driving a motor vehicle the legal limit is .008. And as long as you are not being a public nuisance its not against the law to be drunk. So what legal limit are they talking about?

What about the Public Intoxication charge?

[BigDon]

Well, pretty much unless you are bringing attention to yourself by staggering and falling down (The public nuisance thing) how do they know? We haven't got to the point where they are testing pedestrians at random yet.

[davidlpf]

Well, pretty much unless you are bringing attention to yourself by staggering and falling down (The public nuisance thing) how do they know? We haven't got to the point where they are testing pedestrians at random yet.
I think the news station was just giving people an idea about how drunk he was at the moment of death.

[Davros]

Devros, I did drift over towards the snotty side in that post. Sorry, there was no need for that.


Apology gladly accepted :razz:

[Davros]

I think the news station was just giving people an idea about how drunk he was at the moment of death.
Which if the legal limit is the same or similar in the U.S. as it is here, 4 times over the limit would be what me and the lads call: "A bit squiffy". Enough to dull the senses, but hardly enough to cause anyone to be staggering around aimlessly.

[JohnD]

Rather more intersting than the fact of all those turkeys being slaughtered is, where did the virus come from?
The possibilities are:
1/ Wild bird got into the sheds
2/ Wild bird poo got into the sheds, via workers clothing.
3/ Wild bird/poo got into turkey feed.
4/ Turkey eggs were contaminated before they arrived in sheds.
5/ Chicks were contaminated ditto

The only recent Europan outbreak was in Hungary, last month. It was in a farm owned by the Bernard Matthews (BM) company that owns the UK unit, but was a Goose farm. BM denies any direct contact between the two units. They also say that all the chicks were sourced from UK farms, as is their feed, so that must make 3, 4 + 5 unlikely.
The British Trust for Ornithology (and European societies) has been scouring Europe for dead or dying birds all winter. They have sent over 4000 birds for testing for H5N1. They have found none.

So where did it come from? The nearest source, bar Hungary, the source of which is as obscure, is endemic virus in Asian wild fowl. Carriage on air passengers' clothing seems unlikely, given the precautions, and the chain of coincidence necesary to link them without being glaringly obvious (Mr.Matthews just back from Hong Kong holiday of something).

The Foot and Mouth epidemic started in a farm that took restaurant refuse and turned it into pigswill. The farm was negligently run, the swill was not cooked properly and the suspicion is that meat from Europe, perhaps a wasted sandwich or airline food, was sent for swill. But whatever you think about the BM turkey factory methods, they are not a slovenly outfit, sloppily run, but a bared to the bone (by mechnical recovery) tightly managed commerecial venture.

Sop wher did it come from??
They are saying, " we'll probably never know,"
Worrying isn't it?

John

[BigDon]

Dare we say it? Intentional attack?

[JohnD]

NEWS FLASH!
The UK Government Vet. (Chief Officer of the State Veterinary service) has announced tonight that the UK outbreak virus has identical genetics to the Hungary outbreak. His conclusion is that the virus was brought here in poultry or poultry products.

Also, the virus has been found in samples from birds NOT in the shed where the original deaths occurred. See: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6344335.stm

Both these point straight at sloppy procedures at BM or their suppliers.

John
PS sorry about the sloppy spelling and typos in my previous.

[JohnD]

Update.

Surveying wild birds: My previous statement about the BTO was based on a televised interview of a BTO science oficer, which I have no doubt was incomplete. Today's New Scientist (10/2/7 issue) reminds me that last year a dead swan infected with H5N1 was found on the Scottish coast, and reports that between August 2006 and Jan 2007 the UK Veterinary Laboratories Agency tested 4045 wild birds, and found 0.8% had evidence of any strain of bird flu. This is contrasted with a Swedish survey (ducks migrate to the UK across Sweden) that found "ordinary flu" in 20-40%.

I have to say that a reported incidence of "20-40%" sounds wildly imprecise, but I have not read the roiginal Swedish report.

However, the implication of this news report (not research) is still that there is no H5N1 to be found in the wild bird population.

John (the birdwatcher)