HELP! Unable to start Win XP!

[Spacemad]

A little history first :

On Saturday, 14th April, I was looking on the Packard Bell website as I have been having no end of trouble with the computer & was looking for updates. I found updates to the video drivers & the audio driver. I downloaded & installed both but I didn't reboot the computer, waiting till I had finished downloading any other update that also required a reboot.

I found a programme that would create a boot disc for all PB computers after 1999. I downloaded it, installed it & then tried to burn a bootable CD. I tried several times to burn the CD but every time I tried I got the message that the tray was open or I hadn't inserted a blank CD.I tried opening & closing the tray & even used different CD trays (I have two) but kept getting the same message. I tried with a 2nd blank CD but kept getting the same error message. Tired of not getting results I decided to reboot the computer to see what effects the new drivers would have on the sound & video.

When the computer tried to reboot I got an error message saying a file was missing or corrupt! (\windows\system32\config\system). Then it asked me to insert the Windows Setup CD Rom. I have no Windows Set up CD as the XP HE OS came preinstalled.

Things are getting worse & I really would like to return the computer to its factory settings. My wife's computer, which I'm working on now, goes fast & I´ve been jealous(!) of her machine for more than a year as mine has gone steadily down hill! Mine is soooo slow, the graphics take forever in refreshing & the sound during the last 2 weeks is atrocious! I have no idea what's wrong & have become ever more desperate to return it to factory settings!

There's is no virus or spyware that could be slowing things down that any spyware or anti virus programme can detect, so the problem lies with the OS itself.

I thought I would post this Link to the Packard Bell page that shows my model of computer & the page I went to last week looking for updated drivers for my graphics display & audio driver.

http://support.packardbell.co.uk/uk/item/index.php?sn=024366220139&g=1400

I downloaded both from here & also the programme to make a bootable CD valid for all Packard Bell machines from 1999.

I also downloaded & installed the DOS Application Patch for Windows XP Service Pack 2.

This is the page I downloaded the programme to create a bootable CD from:

http://support.packardbell.co.uk/uk/item/index.php?i=6945490100&psn=024366220139

I'm posting these links so you know what I did on Saturday 14th April in the evening.

I very much fear that without that bootable CD the will be no way of recovering my system!

I've been without my machine for over a week now! Can anyone help me?


P.S. Sorry for being so long winded but if I don't explain what I've done there will be no way you will be able to help me. Thank you for bearing with me!

[Fazor]

Well, I've lost my compu-medic license long ago (been out of the loop for a while), but until a more qualified BAUTieer comes along I'll give it a go. Can you load XP in safe mode? If you can, I would try uninstalling the new video/audio driveres and rebooting. Although if the error just says it can't find the "c:\windows\system\" directory, might be a larger issue. Perhapse the backup program copmressed the directory in order to back it up, and since it didn't sucessfully comlete it never un-compressed it? I don't know, seems like a dumb way for the program to do things, but not out of the question. If you can get in with safe mode, chances are the directory is still there. If you CANNOT get into safe mode, then you really will need a Windows disc. They should have still supplied one with your system, altho it might be labled as "HP OS installation disc" or something (I have a dell, which came with 5 cd's labled "Dell something-or-other" and it's one of those).

If all else fails, you may need to take it into a local PC repair shop. They'll have the right tools to fix it.

From HP website on booting into safe-mode:
Entering Safe Mode when starting the computer
Use the following steps to start Windows XP in Safe Mode when the computer is already off:
-Turn on the computer.
-Press the F8 key repeatedly when the first screen appears.
-From the Windows Advanced Options Menu, select Safe Mode and press ENTER
-When the Windows XP desktop appears, Safe Mode is displayed in the four corners of the screen and the desktop will probably look much worse due to the reduced colors.
-Click Administrator and enter the password (if applicable).

Goodluck
[edited to make quote easier to read]

[Bearded One]

Ditto on trying to boot into safe mode and removing the video and audio drivers.

On word of note: If a program says it needs to reboot your machine after an install it is very important that you do so before installing any more software or updates. Sometimes the install process completes during the next boot, if another package need to complete during the next boot it can overwrite the the previous install's startup commands and really trash your system with a half finished install. This is especially important with drivers.

[publius]

When the computer tried to reboot I got an error message saying a file was missing or corrupt! (\windows\system32\config\system). Then it asked me to insert the Windows Setup CD Rom. I have no Windows Set up CD as the XP HE OS came preinstalled.



That file, the "system" file in that directory, is the system hive file of the registry. The registry is a huge database that the OS stores, well, "everything" in. The system hive is a system that contains driver and hardware settings. When you installed all those drivers, for whatever reason, that file was corrupted.

Basically, you are hosed without a backup of that file. The system will have to be reinstalled. Note that safe-mode won't work, nor "last known good" or any of the recovery boot options because they require the System hive file.

The registry is one of the most important things to backup with an NT-2K-XP-Vista system. It is crucially important.

That's bad news indeed, I'm sorry. But basically, it's time to find the installation CD from PB and reinstall the OS.

-Richard

[Fazor]

That file, the "system" file in that directory, is the system hive file of the registry. The registry is a huge database that the OS stores, well, "everything" in. The system hive is a system that contains driver and hardware settings. When you installed all those drivers, for whatever reason, that file was corrupted.*snip*

Precisely why I said if it does not boot into safe mode, then a trip to the digital ER will be in order. But it's worth a try to boot to safe-mode. I've seen bad driver installations trick the whole boot process into missing the system dirrectory. Guess all you can say is cross those fingers!

[publius]

Fazor,


Yep. For example, a corrupted "boot.ini" file could point to the wrong drive, etc.

Problems like this are the main reason why one, especially if you are using NTFS partitions (which you should anyway with large drive sizes), you need a "maintainence installation" of XP or any other NT family OS that can read NFTS drives. If something bad happens, you can boot that and get at the file system on the failed installation.

I routinely back up the main registry files. The OS will not let any other program touch, even read those registry files while it is running, so one can't simply copy them. A good backup program will know the API incantations to save those files. However, I generally boot the maintainence install and just manually save the registry and other critical configuration files.

-Richard

[HenrikOlsen]

That file, the "system" file in that directory, is the system hive file of the registry. The registry is a huge database that the OS stores, well, "everything" in. The system hive is a system that contains driver and hardware settings. When you installed all those drivers, for whatever reason, that file was corrupted.

Basically, you are hosed without a backup of that file. The system will have to be reinstalled. Note that safe-mode won't work, nor "last known good" or any of the recovery boot options because they require the System hive file.

The registry is one of the most important things to backup with an NT-2K-XP-Vista system. It is crucially important.

That's bad news indeed, I'm sorry. But basically, it's time to find the installation CD from PB and reinstall the OS.

-Richard
Actually, there's one recovery boot option to try before reinstalling, though it does require an xp install disk to boot on, luckily any will do so you could use the one from your wifes pc, or (horrors) download one and burn.

When booting on the install cd you can break out to a command console before installing anything, in that one it's possible to run checkdisk.

I've seen systems where \windows\system32\config\system became visible again after fixing the disk.

[Pinemarten]

It seems that you may have an active command prompt, but no 32 bit OS.

Does 'scanreg /fix' work with XP?

It may be possible to run it from that prompt.

I have a friend that used to work at HP call centre, and she said that fixed most problems.

Even if you don't have an XP disk, you may be able to use another boot disc, Norton or other system programs, to get a command prompt and then run it.

If you got any disks with the sys, try booting with them.

[publius]

When booting on the install cd you can break out to a command console before installing anything, in that one it's possible to run checkdisk.

I've seen systems where \windows\system32\config\system became visible again after fixing the disk.


Yes! The recovery console. One can also install that as a boot option on the hard disk (that's one of the options of the "winnt32" command), and access via the boot.ini prompt. I have that as well.

Pinemarten, XP is an NT based OS. It's not just something that runs on top of and around DOS, like Win9x was. The error message he's getting comes from NTLDR, which is the loader for NT based OSes. The boot sector code reads in NTLDR. NTLDR in turn reads in the kernel and the HAL and the boot mode drivers. To do this, it must read the "system" registry hive to tell it which drivers to load amongst other configuration information.

This message is well before the kernel is up and running. The XP command prompt (CMD.EXE) is actually a 32-bit console mode Win32 program. It requires the full kernel and Win32 subsystem to be running. DOS boxes, which run old 16-bit DOS programs, as well the WOW subsystem that runs Win16 programs are a function of "NTVDM.EXE" mainly, which is what does the V86 mode DOS boxes.

The recovery console that Henrik reminded us of above is actually a "native mode" program, that runs with the bare bones kernel, before the
Win32 system is loaded (the kernel mode portion of that lies in Win32k.sys). This was only added in Win2K. NT 4.0 and prior didn't have it.

However, Mark Russonivich of SysInternals (now owned by MS) actually wrote a similiar native mode recovery program for NT 4.0.

Interestingly, V86 mode was done away with in 64-bit mode of the
x64 spec. So there are no more DOS boxes in the x64 versions of XP, Win2K3, and Vista. You do have your CMD.EXE console mode prompt, of course (and both 64-bit and 32-bit versions, too). But DOS and Win16 cannot run (Virtual machine software is the only way to do that).

-Richard

[Pinemarten]

I don't know if it makes a difference but my HP friend said that they did do weird things with their disc structure concerning the OS. She left HP around 2000 so she missed the newer OS. I won't relay her opinion of their systems here.

Is there anything on the HP site that may be helpful?

SysInternals!
I thought I recognized the services.msc screen, I used to run something similar from them. Is all that based on their code?

[publius]

HP, on some models, was using putting the equivalent of the installation CD on a hidden hard disk partition. I do not know what the restore procedure for that would be, other than maybe the partition was itself bootable, maybe with special knowledge of the HP BIOS. Anyway, HP was not even giving install CDs, and there was a lawsuit over it, and HP eventually starting giving out CDs.

But, I thought the OP was using a Packard Bell machine. They have used hidden partitions for configuration and other information, but I think they used installation CDs.

ETA: Apparently, PB did use a similiar scheme just like HP. The partition is FAT32, about 4GB, and contains the equivalent of the install CD. The partition type is set to something special to hide it, and may have some other surprises. You need to know a bit about a low level disk stuff to mess with that. Partition Magic might make you a boot floppy set that could get at that sucker to run the install program, but I have no idea of the details.

-Richard

[Vermonter]

I know how to fix this! You'll need the Windows disc for this. Here (http://www.wirelesstek.com/winxp.htm#Corrupted%20or%20Missing%20\WINDOWS\SYST EM32\CONFIG) is where I found it.

Insert and boot from your Windows XP CD.
At the first R=Repair option, press the R key
Press the number that corresponds to the correct location for the installation of Windows you want to repair.
Typically this will be #1
Enter in the administrator password when requested

cd \windows\system32\config
ren system system.bad
copy \windows\repair\system

Take out the CD ROM and type exit

[Pinemarten]

Those Dos commands look scary. Triple check your syntax, one my not have an option to go back and use a re-named or replaced file/directory.
Is there a 'copy xxxx a:' option?
It looks like it is just replacing a bad directory with a good back-up that hopefully still exists where it was on install.

I would hate to have a power failure during that operation.

Sorry, for the HP PB, mix up. Come to think of it I can't remember which she worked for.

[Vermonter]

The syntax works. The process takes about two seconds to do. Just write down the commands, and you'll be fine. I've done it several times for friend's computers.

[HenrikOlsen]

The syntax is correct, but it requires that a repair copy had been made before the problem.

This is not done automatically.

[Vermonter]

The repair copy is located on the Windows XP disc.

[Fazor]

Any time I've tried to do a repair it asks for the Administrator password, funny thing is I don't have one. I'm assuming there's some default PW for this, for people like myself who have never set one. But I've tried just typing Admin, Administrator, or leaving it blank and it never works. The once or twice i've needed this I couldn't get online to check. I never have anything real important on my home pc though, so when it gets time for a formatting and reinstall, it's not a huge deal. Then it actually runs decently for me again for a while :).

[publius]

Those commands can be issued from the *recovery* console, available from the installation disc. The *repair* option is another thing where the setup program attempts to repair an installation. It will do the copy of any backup hive files in that repair directory.

Doing that manually can work. It can also fail miserably. The system makes that "repair" copy of sort of minimal hive files during setup (and maybe updates them after service pack installations). They will not contain all the changes that have been made since.

If things have changed too much since then, it will fail. It is best to let setup itself using those files, because it knows how to make a stable system based on what it has to work with.

-Richard

[Spacemad]

Thanks very much to all of you for your input!

Many of the replies mention a set up disc - my Packard Bell computer came with the OP already installed. There was only a a bootable floppy. It works alright & I can get the machine to boot up from it but it always stops at the screen where it asks for the Master CD 1 to be inserted!!! I have no Master CD! I do have two CDs made by the system when we first decided to return it to factory setting over 4 years ago. These CDs were used several times but haven't been used for several years. I inserted the first of them when prompted for the Master CD 1 but it justs ignores it! After a minute or two it once again prompts for the Master CD 1!

[mugaliens]

As a highly experienced networking security specialist, I can help you.

First, grab a hammer...

Seriously, it sounds like you just need to reinstall the operating system and all applicable drivers from scratch.

[Fazor]

As a highly experienced networking security specialist, I can help you.

First, grab a hammer...

Seriously, it sounds like you just need to reinstall the operating system and all applicable drivers from scratch.

Sadly, you (and, as it was predicted by Plurbis [edit: Publius, sorry for butchering handle, but i think it's funny so i'll leave it] first) are probably right. However I'm still a fan of desperate long-shot attempts at a fix first when it comes to computers. I've had seemingly major problems fixed by simply changing the port the mouse was plugged into or moving a sound/video card up or down a slot. ah, the days of IRQ conflicts!). Doesn't sound good in this situation, but without hope, all you have is logic. ;)

[Pinemarten]

Thanks very much to all of you for your input!

Many of the replies mention a set up disc - my Packard Bell computer came with the OP already installed. There was only a a bootable floppy. It works alright & I can get the machine to boot up from it but it always stops at the screen where it asks for the Master CD 1 to be inserted!!! I have no Master CD! I do have two CDs made by the system when we first decided to return it to factory setting over 4 years ago. These CDs were used several times but haven't been used for several years. I inserted the first of them when prompted for the Master CD 1 but it justs ignores it! After a minute or two it once again prompts for the Master CD 1!

Have tried booting with the two CDs you made years ago? You may have to make sure your BIOS is set to boot from CD first.

Edit: Master CD1 may be buried in the C: drive as CD1 or something. If you have a valid sys loaded you may me able to 'C: dir /p /w' it may show up.

[Pinemarten]

Here is a link to a similar problem. If you can PM the member that helped me they may be able to help. First you may want to try the command given in this link:

http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=966086&postcount=5

[publius]

(and, as it was predicted by Plurbis [edit: Publius, sorry for butchering handle, but i think it's funny so i'll leave it] first)

Just call me Richard if "publius" is too botch-prone. :) When I joined, I noticed everybody seemed to have a "handle", so I chose that one, which I use for other stuff.

"Publius" was the nome deplume used by Madison, Hamilton, and Jay in writing the Federalist Papers, which were arguments in favor of the proposed US Constitution, where they answered the critics, known as the Antifederalists. That name came from some Roman eminence named "Publius Valerius" something or another.

-Richard

[publius]

However I'm still a fan of desperate long-shot attempts at a fix first when it comes to computers.

I'm with you on that for my own self. I've done and still do all sorts of unorthodox things. Such as cloning installations from one partition to another by modifying the disk mapping in a copy of what will be the registry file. That is something I just did recently here, after a hard disk started dying (and, after getting a new one, 300GB, I "mid level" formatted the old drive, hooked it up to anothr port, and lo and behold the bad sectors dissappeared and haven't come back). That of course saves a *laborius* reinstall.

However, doing stuff like this requires knowledge and experience. I learned the hard way not to try to help people with doing this kind of stuff. Indeed, I "helped" a friend of mine (over e-mail) completely trash his system once. Why? Well, I was telling him all sorts of fancy things to do, but of course, forgot the little details that to me, "go without saying". Those details were important, he didn't know them, and he trashed everything.

-Richard

[amok]

Personally, I vastly dislike computers that do not come with at least a recovery CD. Luckily I have nothing to do at work so far and looked a few things up...

Since you are running XP SP2, we can setup boot floppies! Hurray. This has to be done from a working computer though, here's a link:
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=15491f07-99f7-4a2d-983d-81c2137ff464&DisplayLang=en

This should allow you to enter the Recovery Console as instructed here:
http://www.computerhope.com/issues/ch000627.htm

Still, getting the recovery console up and running is only half the problem:
http://www.help2go.com/Tutorials/Windows/C:%5Cwindows%5Csystem32%5Cconfig%5Csystem_missing_ or_corrupt.html
describes some decent looking steps (as well as your error) on how to proceed from the Recovery Console to hopefully a running system. Sounds complex but the above page is actually well structured.

Sorry for all of the link dumping, but the best way to fix things is to fix them yerself with a little guidence and reading.

Kinda funny side note....When I googled "packard bell, no boot cd" a posting from a Packard Bell forum was the second search result, which I Believe was you (spacemad). Sorry to see that they haven't been able to resolve your issue yet :(

[mugaliens]

I wouldn't try to repair the current installation.

Why? Because you may wind up corrupting whatever date you have left on your drive.

Here's what I'd do (have done, back in 2001 with Windows NT 4.0):

1. Buy a new hard drive. All you really need is around 60 GB, but I haven't even seen such a "small" hard drive on the shelves lately, so get the 120 GB one, if you must.

2. Remove your current hard drive from your system.

3. Clean your system, using your vaccuum cleaner's opposite end to completely blow the dust out of every nook and cranny. Serious - dust can lead to shorts, arc-overs, and other potentially catestrophic computer events.

4. Install the new hard drive, and set it to the master.

5. Reinstall your system from scratch, including all drivers for your various devices and peripherals.

6. Reset your old hard drive as the slave, and add it to your system so that you can retrieve whatever date you had stored there.

WARNING: Ensure your computer's power is OFF and that you're grounded (touching a metal part of your computer) when you add or remove components or even when you're cleaning the system.

[amok]

5. Reinstall your system from scratch, including all drivers for your various devices and peripherals.

While a valid option, and most times easier, in this case rather hard to do without a system disk. :doh:

[Pinemarten]

Slightly off topic:
Thanks again for your help amok, I should have listened to your well schooled advice before re-loading the OS. The total downloads were 72 MB with 2-3 reboots.
I use the 'new hard drive' option to buy a new OS at an incredible saving. In most computer stores when you buy a new 'system' you get a factory CD from Microsoft for as little as $30. It is a full install as opposed to an upgrade.
For my upgrade from Win98, I purchased a 160GB HD and XP for $90 + $40 for the OS, and that qualified as a new sys.
You may be able to find a computer store that has older hard drives and an XP disk. From what I have heard Vista can wait.

[LurchGS]

I can sympathize, I'v been having the devil's own time installing (well, anything, but XP is one of them) an OS on this Dell.

I *Just* figured out that some *JERK* at Microsoft thinks he knows better than I do where I want my OS installed (This is a clean install).

I have a 2G, a 40G, a 160G SATA and a 200G SATA.. I want toTHe OS on the 40G drive. But NOOooooo!. XP is insisting that it wants to reside on the 200G SATA. I am NOT pleased. But at least I'm finally getting SOMETHING installed.

Maybe - I'm not done yet, who knows what other insanity might come out of Redmond

[mugaliens]

From what I have heard Vista can wait.

Ditto.

Lurch - have you tried disconnecting the other drives during the install so the OS installer simply doesn't see them?

[LurchGS]

Ditto.

Lurch - have you tried disconnecting the other drives during the install so the OS installer simply doesn't see them?

I did think of that - so, when this install attempt fails, I'll be trying that. But it's still lame, and one of the big reasons I don't like Windows. SO many apps give you no choice on placement (it happens on the Mac, too, but for me, less frequently)

You'd think these programmers had never heard of a symbolic link

[Pinemarten]

I had something similar, but with the BIOS. I had 2 HDs and one would only get recognized if it was the master. I tried the master slave jumpers in all positions. That was before I knew what 'cable select' meant. Doh!

[LurchGS]

lol - it's not a master/slave issue.

but, fortunately, I did win. I've not been able to install XP (it crapped out 3 times at the same point in 'copying files'), but I just finished installing Ubuntu... oddly, I had to install the LAMP server first, in order to make this happen. After I did that, though, all went as though I'd never had a problem in the first place.

Now I can take over the world

[Spacemad]

5. Reinstall your system from scratch, including all drivers for your various devices and peripherals.



How do I do that if I have no OS??? If I had the XP CD I'd do a reinstall & probably fix my problem!!! Then I wouldn't be wasting everybody's time with my silly questions!

[Pinemarten]

Without an XP CD the solutions in these 3 posts may be your best chance.

Booting from your old CDs:
http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=976743&postcount=22

Some links researched by amok:
http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=977086&postcount=26

Buy a new HD to get a cheap XP disk:
http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=977256&postcount=29

Another solution would be to make a 'recovery' disk from a system that has XP and is operating normally.

[mugaliens]

You'd think these programmers had never heard of a symbolic link

What's a symbolic link?

Sorry, Lurch - I'm network/systems, guy, not a programmer.

[Pinemarten]

What's a symbolic link?

Sorry, Lurch - I'm network/systems, guy, not a programmer.

I think he means a symbol for the drive.

Install OS to C:, D:, E:, other? I don't think XP has this choice.

[Donnie B.]

What's a symbolic link?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symbolic_link

[LurchGS]

This year's worldwide charity screenings of Serenity will take place on or around June 23, 2007. Check the details at http://www.cantstoptheserenity.com.

oooh, decisions, decisions... Whether it is nobler in the hearts of men to snub the loony ladies or to suffer the slings and arrows of an over crowded theater...

Still, it's only $10...

but.. equality for women??

$10

Women..

gah! I hate decisions like this!

[Spacemad]

I think I will end up taking my computer to a computer shop & see if they can fix it for me. I've been without my own computer for nearly 3 weeks & I'm not comfortable using my wife's - it sometimes generates conflicts between us - conflicts that largely passed when she got her own computer about 18 months ago.

She's frightened I might ruin her computer like I ruined mine if I download anything.


PS: Thanks to everybody's advise & help - I appreciate it very much! I've found more help & advise here than on the specialist computing forums! I'd had great expectations when I first posted my problem on the Packard Bell forum but the replies haven't been what I expected.

[Roy Batty]

PS: Thanks to everybody's advise & help - I appreciate it very much! I've found more help & advise here than on the specialist computing forums! I'd had great expectations when I first posted my problem on the Packard Bell forum but the replies haven't been what I expected.
I haven't been able to contribute to this thread so far, but, you know what? you're absolutely right! I feel like I can get answers here for similar (& completely unrelated) problems, a lot more responsively & succinctly than a lot of other specialised forums. Hear, hear for BAUT & Babbling! :)

[Bearded One]

I just had one of my XP boxes crash with a "Unable to load HALL.DLL". I booted a live CD and ran chkdsk, it fixed a bunch of errors but now all is well. Bad few days for computers in general, a client lost his XP install, "Unable to find operating system" error. Spinrite and the live CD partition repair utils fixed that. Had a drive crash on my server, I think it overheated. Clogged vents and the AC was off. Saved all but one video file so not to bad there either. Now another machine keeps losing it's network connection. Don't know what's up with that one yet.

And then to top it off, my TV wouldn't turn on via remote or on set power button. Had to power cycle it.

Now I'm scared to use any electronics :o

[LurchGS]

Remember -

ALWAYS re-install the windows OS every 500 hours of use

[HenrikOlsen]

Isn't it reinstall every 100 reboots?

[Spacemad]

If I were to do as you guys suggest I would be forever reinstalling Windows & would never get anything done!

We have had our computer for 5 years now & we turn it off every night - very few occasions has it been left on all night! Besides that if we have to leave the computer for a few hours a day we always turn it off!

If you close it down properly each time there is no reason why it should stop working! My wife does the same with her computer as well.

I know there is some controversy about this point but neither of our computers appear to suffer from doing that!
My computer has broken down now because I tried to install updates & burn a CD all before rebooting. I've now lost the file that Windows needs to boot up from but it has nothing to do with constant shut downs & reboots - often several times a day.