learning languages

[parallaxicality]

Given how educated and multicultural this board is, I thought I'd ask a personal question; one that concerns a hidden personal inadequacy.

I hate learning other languages.

I'm terrible at it. I don't understand why. People consider me gifted in my own tongue; I aced English all the way through high school, then graduated with a first class degree in the subject at university, which in turn led to me gain a masters in research at graduate level. I've studied many dead languages, such as Latin, Greek, Norse and Anglo-Saxon, and while not excelling at them, acquitted myself tolerably.

But when it comes to other living languages, I simply fall apart. I hate rote learning, which is pretty much what language study boils down to. In attempts to communicate with others in another language, I get overwhelmed trying to process the rapid patter of syllables into comprehensible words. To my shame, I still cringe at the thought of the Fosters ad incident, in which I viewed the same ad at least fifty times before I comprehended what the two actors on screen, speaking with English subtitles and in a language (Portuguese) in which I am supposed to be functionally fluent, were saying.

I spent four years in Brazil but never passed my mandatory Portuguese class. Not once.

So now I'm thinking of learning a language. Problem is, I don't think I have the emotional werwithal to cope with more than one, so it has to count. But what language should it be? The dilemma facing any native speaker of the world's language is which of the world's languages is said speaker most likely to need?

[tdvance]

I found perl and C to be relatively easy to learn :)

Human languages, however, seem best learned at childhood.

I am mediocre at French and German, which I took in high school and college, respectively. I did well enough to pass the exams for the doctorate, but that just means you can translate math papers with a dictionary at hand--and that's more math language than German or French. Just have to remember that what English-speaking algebraists call a "field", the Germans call a "body", and a few other things.

But as you get older, I think the brain solidifies in certain patterns--e.g. most English-speaking people don't have a "stack" deep enough to dive into the Atlantic from Europe at the beginning of a German sentence, swim underwater holding their breath all the way to the US and surface with a verb in their mouth. (it's kind of like doing arithmetic using Reverse Polish Notation, AKA Postfix).

[SeanF]

I took Spanish in high school, but I'm afraid I don't remember much of it.

I am now in the process of trying to learn Mandarin Chinese, which in some ways (grammar) is easier than English but in others (pronunciation tone) is extremely difficult.

[Ronald Brak]

...I hate rote learning, which is pretty much what language study boils down to...

I think that maybe I see your problem. You can't learn a language by rote learning. Or rather you can learn the grammar and vocabulary of a language by rote, but your communication skills will be awful. I know, I've worked with some of these people. Forget rote learning. The most effective way to learn another language is the same way you learned English. Use it for real communication and make a vast number of mistakes as you learn. For some personality types this is very difficult to do as some people are just plain shy. I recommend getting a native speaking girlfriend or boyfriend as an easy way around this problem. Be warned if you are hetrosexual, however, as many languages have significant differences between the way women speak and the way men speak, but being able to communicate at all is what's important so don't worry too much about it.

I've known people who've studied English at university and have perfect grammar and excellent vocabulary, but simply can't communicate in real life situations. And then I've met people with lousy grammar who picked up English from just hanging out with English speakers who are very good at making themselves understood. Trust me, you want to be the second type. They are much easier to understand.

And don't feel bad about not understanding Portugese. I went to Japan and when I got there I felt lousy that my language study had been so useless. But then I heard a couple of Japanese people speaking and I could understand them. So I asked then why I could understand them and one of them explained that they were from Tokyo and Tokyo Japanese is what is taught overseas.

[Swift]

I don't have a good answer parallaxicality - I have the same problem. I joke that I have managed not to learn three foreign languages (Spanish, German, French), even though I have at various points been taught all three. I spent a year in France - by the end my French was barely acceptable, and now has long ago evaporated.

On the flip side, my sister has learned two languages in college (minored in French and Italian) and is now, at the age of 46, learning German for the fun of it. But she knows nothing about science or chemistry.

I too was told "get a French girlfriend" when I was in France. I think Ronald might be on to something, but the problem is, if you are shy, getting a girlfriend can be harder than learning a language, and I was very shy back then.

[torque of the town]

I hate learning other languages.



You are not alone there old chap, try as I may a second language always eluded me.
Some people have the aptitude at any age, but I think the younger the better
at least thats my excuse.

The good old English stand by when trying to communicate with someone who does not speak English is to, Speak English very slowly in a loud voice and put an "o" on the end of every word.;)


David

[Argos]

It think it has to do with passion. You got to be really interested. I love learning languages, and I can express myself [don´t consider it a bragging - it isn´t] - with different degrees of skill - in four languages besides my native one. But that´s because I love it. It´s not an intelligence issue.

Now I´m struggling to learn German [and I dont´have hopes to learn mandarin, partly because I don´t like the sound of it]

As for you experience in Brazil, don´t worry about that. Brazil is a terrible place to learn Portuguese. :)

[Ronald Brak]

I too was told "get a French girlfriend" when I was in France. I think Ronald might be on to something, but the problem is, if you are shy, getting a girlfriend can be harder than learning a language, and I was very shy back then.

Then the next best best is old ladies. The world is full of old ladies who love to talk. What you need to do is make a deal. You teach them English for an hour and then they teach you their language for an hour. Or if you are poor, you teach them English for half and hour, they pay you money and then you just hang around and speak their language for an hour. They will love it and feed you well. They'll take you places too. It's good. Impress them and they'll set you up with their daughters (depending on the country).

[Mister Earl]

I'm working on learning Persian Farsi myself. Interesting language, Farsi is... 4 Z's, 2 H's, and letters either have only a small case, or a small and large case, and two letters have FOUR cases. It's read right to left, except for numbers which are read left to right.

I think the main key to learning a different language isn't to think in English and then translate on the fly... it's to think in the other language from the start. Once you can think coherently in another language, it becomes FAR easier. I don't think age has much to do with it.

[Donnie B.]

Personally, I think everybody else in the world should learn my language, rather than the other way around. ;)

Seriously, I'm just like parallaxicality. I can muddle my way through some relatively easy French reading, but couldn't speak or write the language to save my life.

[Fazor]

Yep. That's how I am with spanish. Studied it from middle school up to my sophmore year in college. I can get by, embarassingly, when dealing in written communication. But speaking and comprehending spoken spanish is a different ball game entirely.

[Dgennero]

I love languages.
I'm from Germany originally, so that's my first language, American English my second - people tell me I barely have an accent.
I understand written Spanish and can freely read Esperanto (a model language).
I had Latin and French in school and understand most written texts in any of the Romance languages.
I invented my own language for fun.
It is hard for me to comprehend that many foreigners, Germans and the lot of Hispanics I meet, have been living here in the US of A for years but still speak broken English or have a strong accent.

[Gillianren]

Some people have the mind for languages; some don't. It's the way of things.

I learn languages fairly easy, though I don't retain them very well, and I agree that rote learning's a bad way to do it. That's why I recommend trying to learn Spanish--it's very easy to find other Spanish-speakers in the US, and having someone to practice on/with is your best bet, as others have said.

Actually, I tutored a friend in college. I had to take five credits of a foreign language to graduate, so I took Spanish 101 as a refresher course. (I took three years of it in high school but had lost my fluency by living in Port Angeles, WA; practically all I could do anymore was order dinner.) We put big sheets of butcher paper on her wall, and I wrote the grammar all over them. But we practiced speaking so she'd get the vocabulary.

[Roving Philosopher]

I generally don't have a hard time learning languages, but I tend to lose them just as fast if I don't use them regularly (I used to be able to converse in Spanish. I still can, to some extent, but I've forgotten a lot of the vocabulary).

Once you've decided on a language, you might also look for language clubs in your area. I don't know much about them, except that they exist, as I sometimes see notices that one or another will be meeting at Barnes & Noble.

You could also try sign language. My wife and I both know a little (she has a sister who is hard of hearing). We find it very useful when communicating across rooms, in noisy settings, or when talking is otherwise not an option.

[mickal555]

They made us learn japenese in school, I never got the hang of it though...

[HenrikOlsen]

You could also try sign language. My wife and I both know a little (she has a sister who is hard of hearing). We find it very useful when communicating across rooms, in noisy settings, or when talking is otherwise not an option.
Just remember that sign language is not international, it's split along national boundaries just as much as spoken language is, so don't pick it in the hope that you can use it abroad.

[Jens]

I love languages.

...

I invented my own language for fun.


Me too.

This thread reminds me of a joke. What do you call a person who can speak two languages? Bilingual. Three languages? Trilingual. One language? American.

Well, it's not surprising that the few people who say they are proficient at foreign languages are non-English speakers, since this board is in English.

But anyway, I like languages too. I happened to live in France when I was a kid, and went to French school, so I got that language early. And I studied Spanish in high school, and can do OK, though I forget a lot of words. And I work as a translator between Japanese and English, so obviously I have to be pretty good at it. And I've been studying Mandarin, which as somebody else mentioned, is hard because of the tones. Actually, the reading is the easiest part (if you can read Japanese, that is)! I also would like to learn Indonesian and Swahili and Arabic and Persian, at least, but unfortunately we only have one lifetime.

Also, I wrote my own language, called Neo Patwa (http://patwa.pbwiki.com). It's like Esperanto, but more multinational.

[LurchGS]

I can wiggle my way through spanish, if the speaker shouts and speaks very slowly..

I've not tried it, but short of immersion, I'm told that flatly the best way to learn to speak/understand a new language is that Rosetta Stone software

[foreignkid]

The good old English stand by when trying to communicate with someone who does not speak English is to, Speak English very slowly in a loud voice and put an "o" on the end of every word.

I must admit that I did this while in Spain for a week. What I learned: never go up to a complete stranger and say: Where-o is-o the-o bus-o stop-o. They will get violent.


On a more serious note, I think that the best way to learn a new language is to have fun with it, and to be motivated. For example, I learned English from watching non-stop American cartoons being aired on a Romanian channel. Because I wanted to know what was going on, I began associating different emotions, facial expressions, and actions with different words/sounds.Then, when I actually had to learn English for the purpose of moving to the US, it was a piece of cake.

So, here is my advice to you. If you are trying to learn French, first start by knowing the basics. Then, simply watch many French movies. Start by putting English subtitles on, then, gradually, taking them off and trying to understand perfectly what is going on.
Or, if you're into exotic stuff, you could try learning Yucatec and Aramaic from good ol' Mel's movies.

[Captain Kidd]

This thread reminds me of a joke. What do you call a person who can speak two languages? Bilingual. Three languages? Trilingual. One language? American. Sadly that's me, true blue American that I am.

Although, upon consideration I guess I do speak multiple languages as I have had to translate a time or two for my New England relatives what my Tennessee relatives said (and vice versa). When I was working at Taco Bell back in my undergrad days, a time or two I had to take over for the drive through person when an Upper Peninsulan would come through. ;)

Then there's the story that one of my professors told about a male British exchange student asking a female American classmate for an eraser. :)

I aced Spanish 1 in high school, Spanish 2 killed me though. I never did make the switch to thinking in it, but tried to translate each word on the fly. That bogged me down bad.

To fill my hours this semester, I'm taking introductory Japanese. I'm worried too, however my wife also wants to learn so she's going to drill me everyday for each and ever item I learned. That should help make it stick. Of course with Japanese I guess I need to cram the culture too so that I know how to say something as much as what the words are.

Speaking of, is Japanese gender-oriented any? I've been told that one problem is that most Japanese teachers are women and thus male students will learn with a female gender slant to their phrasing. But I thought it was genderless and more importance was on knowing where you are hierarchically with the person you're talking to.

[LurchGS]

A fun one to learn is American Sign Language.. I picked up a little from my wife (who had deaf relatives).. enough to 'eavesdrop' on conversations from a block or so away. I don't get every word, but enough to comprehend the gist.

Of course, eavesdropping is rude, but when they're shouting it's hard not to

[Jens]

Speaking of, is Japanese gender-oriented any? I've been told that one problem is that most Japanese teachers are women and thus male students will learn with a female gender slant to their phrasing. But I thought it was genderless and more importance was on knowing where you are hierarchically with the person you're talking to.

It's not genderless at all in the sense that you mean. Even English has some gender difference; for example, my mother will tend to use "shoot" when she gets frustrated but my dad would use a different word, which is not printable here.

But Japanese is much more so than English. The first singular pronoun (I, me) will often differ depending on the gender and age of the speaker. There are words like "watashi" (which people are usually tought) as well as "boku," "ore," "washi," "atai." For example, "ore" is usually used by young men, though actually I once heard it used in the north of Japan, by and elderly woman. So there are regional differences as well. But it's true that many male foreigners speak Japanese like women because of their teachers (and girlfriends).

And there is hierarchy as well. So both gender and hierarchy have an effect on the language. Children speak to their parents differently than they do toward other adults. Though that's not only in Japanese, of course. I think every language has different forms like that. In English, children will use "gimme that!" to a sibling, and perhaps to a parent (though at the risk of a spanking), but it's not something you would say to an adult you don't know very well, unless you have a very low EQ. Even a very normal child would say "gimme that" to his brother, but it would be hard to imagine a kid saying it to a waitress in a restaurant. So I think probably all human societies do have that sort of language use, based on relationship or hierarchy. But Japanese is much more so than English.

[Captain Kidd]

Ah, thanks much.

[HenrikOlsen]

This thread reminds me of a joke. What do you call a person who can speak two languages? Bilingual. Three languages? Trilingual. One language? American.
When I heard it, it was French.

[SeanF]

I've not tried it, but short of immersion, I'm told that flatly the best way to learn to speak/understand a new language is that Rosetta Stone software
I've actually seen a demo of the Rosetta Stone software for Mandarin. What it does is show you four pictures, then display (and read out audibly) a sentence, and you have to pick which picture fits the sentence. Each lesson includes a number of different picture/sentence combinations that are related, but different. There is never any English translation given of any of the words. You just need to figure out what words mean what by what's different in the pictures and what's different in the sentences. If you know nothing about the language you're trying to learn, you're going to start out having to make totally random guesses. :)

I've been going through Pimsleur's audio CD Mandarin lessons, and have found them to be pretty good, too.

I must admit that I did this while in Spain for a week. What I learned: never go up to a complete stranger and say: Where-o is-o the-o bus-o stop-o. They will get violent.
When the wife and I were in Mexico for our honeymoon, we went looking for a local Catholic cathedral. We stopped and asked a young man for help. He spoke fairly good English (better than our Spanish), so he understood we were looking for something, but the word "cathedral" wasn't getting through - until I made the sign of the cross. Then he knew what we wanted, and took us there. I suppose that could qualify as sign language. :D

[Delvo]

I seem to have a hard time with languages, although I can't say whether it's me or the lack of good education in foreign languages to be found around here. I once could handle German pretty well, but have forgotten it because it's useless here. I started Spanish but quit due to the amount of work involved outweighing my motivation.

But something odd occured to me when I was watching scenes early in "The Thirteenth Warrior", in which you hear English, at least one other more purely Germanic language, Latin, and even one or two lines in Greek, and often the same line offered in two or three of them as characters translated to each other. I could actually understand bits of languges I hadn't studied at all, by analogy to what I did know of English, German, and isolated Romance language words/roots and tidbits about Indo-European language relationships & evolution. I do know my linguistics fairly well, just not actual languages... so then I thought that maybe I'm better at remembering relationships between languages than I am at remembering individual ones, as if relationship patterns allow me to cheat by starting with one and converting to the other as if it were another version of the same thing (which they really are, if they're sufficiently related).

So the idea now is that learning one language, like Spanish, might be easier for me if I took another, like Portuguese or Italian, along with it, by giving me not a single stand-alone entity to memorize in isolation from anything else, but a set of relationships and examples of those relationships, which seems to be what I'm better at.

Has anybody here found that doing two or more was easier than one for yourself, or known anyone else to be successful with it, or heard an educational theory that it might work that way for some people?

[Pinemarten]

To respond to the OP I would recommend Japanese or Chinese. Most other countries are learning English.
Eventually you may have career opportunities where one of those languages will be recommended.

[Disinfo Agent]

People consider me gifted in my own tongue; I aced English all the way through high school, then graduated with a first class degree in the subject at university, which in turn led to me gain a masters in research at graduate level. I've studied many dead languages, such as Latin, Greek, Norse and Anglo-Saxon, and while not excelling at them, acquitted myself tolerably.This remark caught my attention. Perhaps the problem is that you've been trying to learn living languages as you've learnt dead ones. Learning dead languages is very much about rote memorisation. Learning living languages is more about interacting with people. Talking.

I've always been baffled by how one can go through an entire Latin course without ever attempting to utter a word of it. But, hey, it's a dead language; I guess you just need to be able to read it. Not so with living languages. First learn to talk. Leave the specifics for later.

Hoping this will help.

[Lianachan]

Given that most modern European languages come from only a few original sources, I've found it easier to learn about those original sources - kind of giving me the lego blocks of European language - and from those I can pick out meaning in several of the modern varients (when written). This has largely come about as a result of my study of Scottish placenames and their evolution over time.

[LurchGS]

Has anybody here found that doing two or more was easier than one for yourself, or known anyone else to be successful with it, or heard an educational theory that it might work that way for some people?

My spanish teacher said that's what she did - laerned Spanish/Italian/Portugese ... and Greek - all at the same time. One seems to help the other. I'm not sure I'd go that nuts, though...I'd be happy to get my German and Chinese back