Kent State - May 4

[NEOWatcher]

I haven't found a thread on the subject, and I'm sure there will be some comments on the subject. So here is a thread for it.
Back in 1970 was the Kent State Shootings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings)

Now, it is not a milestone (divisible by 5 or 10) anniversary, but a new story is making the rounds (at least locally) that could have CT overtones.

Kent State shootings victim: Tape reveals order to fire (http://www.wkyc.com/news/regional/akron_article.aspx?storyid=66773)

And of course to make it even more relevent to today, we need to remember VT.
Kent State Will Remember Virginia Tech (http://www.newsnet5.com/news/13216243/detail.html)

I hat to be a wet noodle, but these two situations have nothing in common.

[Donnie B.]

In what way does this CT relate to space or astronomy?

[NEOWatcher]

In what way does this CT relate to space or astronomy?
You're right; I forgot about the change in the rules.

If I find it's no longer here, I guess I shall look elsewhere.

[Grashtel]

As has already been noted non-space/astronomy related conspiracy discussion is no longer welcome here, but the Apollo Hoax forum (http://apollohoax.proboards21.com) still allows it and has more active conspiracy theorist posters (along with many of the posters from here).

[Tinaa]

Moved to OTB.

[Celestial Mechanic]

So why is this tape surfacing only now? Why wasn't it used 30+ years ago at the various trials?

[Gillianren]

Depends on who had it, probably.

[NEOWatcher]

Depends on who had it, probably.
He owns the original, but the FBI made a copy in the initial investigation.

What irritates me is that the press is saying what this guy wants, but is not following up with why it is being ignored, or what they found in the first place.

They said the recording was done from a dorm. The crowd was closer to the dorms where people were shot, than the guard.
I would be willing to bet the recording is of someone goading on the guard.

[NEOWatcher]

Another story (http://www.newsnet5.com/news/13234104/detail.html) with video (http://www.newsnet5.com/video/13235694/index.html) that plays the tape multiple times.

Just a bunch of noise if you ask me.

[Fazor]

Just a bunch of noise if you ask me.
you have to slow it down and play it backwards. The National Guard uses subliminal orders to dirrect thier brainwashed drones. Duh.

:)

[Doodler]

If it werent' for some loon popping a buncha people at Virginia Tech a week ago, this would have passed as anonymously as it has since 1970.

So you'll forgive me if the most constructive thing I have to add to this conversation is a hearty belch and a question about what's on TV tonight.

[NEOWatcher]

If it werent' for some loon popping a buncha people at Virginia Tech a week ago, this would have passed as anonymously as it has since 1970.
I admit, that the VT hype related to this is un-called for, but if multiple national news outlets are putting it as one of the top stories (such as Here (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18425920/) and Here (http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/02/kent.state.ap/index.html)) and not even relating it to VT, then they are considering it a story in itself and popular enough to make money from.
So you'll forgive me if the most constructive thing I have to add to this conversation is a hearty belch and a question about what's on TV tonight.
Opinions are fine. I too wish they would let it rest, but it was an important era, and this is a personification of that era.

[Doodler]

A field commander made a bad call. On the other hand, you pick a fight with heavily armed people, you get ventilated with medium calibre ammunition.

[NEOWatcher]

A field commander made a bad call. On the other hand, you pick a fight with heavily armed people, you get ventilated with medium calibre ammunition.
But, that is the issue. They've never been able to determine exactly what happened. It could have just been someone asleep at the trigger.
Either way, I know I would have been nowhere near that activity, and there were no classroom buildings in that area, except for the one that the guard was directly in front of, so avoiding the area was not that difficult.

[Gillianren]

I have a friend whose father narrowly missed being there; if he had been, I might not have had my best friend.

What you have to remember, Doodler, is that the majority of those students weren't picking a fight. You have to remember that the photos of the time show that the nearest students were out of throwing range and therefore were no danger to the National Guardsmen. In fact, by all accounts, the National Guardsmen were moving away, had gone nearly over a ridge and out of sight, and turned and fired. This isn't a riot. But no one knows exactly why those students died.

[Christopher Ferro]

I did notice a parallel in one article about his to alleged Apollo mission transcripts purporting to indicate aliens on the moon. A guardsman basically said that "Get set! Point! Fire!" or whatever was not a legitimate command.

Larry Shafer, a former Guardsman who said he fired during the shootings and was among those charged, told the Kent-Ravenna Record-Courier newspaper on Tuesday that he was unaware of the tape and that "point" would not have been part of a proper command.

Could be the auditory cousin of pareidolia (http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/lenin.html).

CJSF

P.S.
Crap. I can't find the thread linking to the faux transcript of Neil Amstrong talking about alien bases.

[Doodler]

Could just be outright fraud, too. If there's more than one copy of this, then it too should be examined. They've been sitting on this how long now? And now, with the event timing, just come forward?

Something stinks.

[Celestial Mechanic]

I wrote this earlier here:
I believe that the national guardsmen at Kent State did agree beforehand to turn and fire when they reached the top of the hill. One of them will confess to it on his deathbed a few years from now.
Vindication is coming; wait for it. This tape probably isn't it, though.

[Gillianren]

I've not heard the tape, and it's entirely possible, even probable, that it doesn't have anything useful on it. I'm not sure if I believe there will ever be anything other than a clarification of history; I really doubt there's any evidence other than memory left.

[NEOWatcher]

... is that the majority of those students weren't picking a fight.
Unfortunately, there were some that weren't, and all it takes is a few bad apples to spoil the bunch.
You have to remember that the photos of the time show that the nearest students were out of throwing range and therefore were no danger to the National Guardsmen.
That changed during the events of the day, sometimes they were, sometimes they weren't.
In fact, by all accounts, the National Guardsmen were moving away, had gone nearly over a ridge and out of sight, and turned and fired.
Not exactly. They realized they left the students boxed into a fenced area, and retreated enough to give them an egress. They did stop for some time (although short) before firing.
This isn't a riot. But no one knows exactly why those students died.
This is the key point to the whole ordeal. Given all the factors in the tragedy, I don't think there was any one thing that could be considered a "spark". It was an escalation of events over the course of over 3 days. Guard, police, fire, and students all were injured during the ordeal.
Downtown was left in shambles.
A building was burned down.
Damage and injuries occured at the dorms the day before.
The guard was coming of a previous assignment.
This all boils down to the word tragedy.

I do know some people who were there at the time. They were the smart ones who got away from there. There were innocent students shot that were not part of the rally, there were some that were.
The situation occured in an area of many dorms, so there were students that were pretty much trapped in the area.

Most of the guard did not shoot. Of those that did, a portion tried to shoot away from the students (in the ground, over thier heads, etc). One student that was hit was about 120 degrees from the angle of the shots.
And this is evidenced by various bullet holes in various parts of the campus.

As to this tape, it was probably done at prentice hall which is where the majority of the shot/injured were. The direction the windows in that building face were directly toward the crowd. I think that any voices heard on the tape were that of the students. If anything is on the tape, my guess would be a student saying something to the effect of "yea, go ahead and point at me, shoot me..."

[Doodler]

If anything is on the tape, my guess would be a student saying something to the effect of "yea, go ahead and point at me, shoot me..."

My bet.

[NEOWatcher]

The other issue I have with Canfora's claim is the following quote repeated in many of the articles:
But only a small portion of the tape was reviewed during various investigations, Canfora said.

If that small portion was not the seconds surrounding the shooting when the command was supposedly given, then what was the small portion that was reviewed? :think:

[Swift]

I've not heard the tape, and it's entirely possible, even probable, that it doesn't have anything useful on it. I'm not sure if I believe there will ever be anything other than a clarification of history; I really doubt there's any evidence other than memory left.
I heard a report on this the other day on NPR. They played the tape at several speeds and with and without some "cleaning up". I could not hear the reported command, though you could hear the gunshots. Among commentators, some said they could, some couldn't.

I think Christopher Ferro is correct about the auditory cousin of pareidolia.

The fact that the tape doesn't prove things one way or the other doesn't change the tragedy or historic importance of the Kent State shootings.

[Jens]

If anything is on the tape, my guess would be a student saying something to the effect of "yea, go ahead and point at me, shoot me..."

Just as a point of interest, assume that were true. if I ask a police officer or national guardsman to shoot me, does that make it OK for them to do it? What would happen if a crazy person said, "shoot me," and the police followed the request? Would that be considered following the wishes of citizens, or doing something wrong?

[NEOWatcher]

Just as a point of interest, assume that were true. if I ask a police officer or national guardsman to shoot me, does that make it OK for them to do it? What would happen if a crazy person said, "shoot me," and the police followed the request? Would that be considered following the wishes of citizens, or doing something wrong?
Just a few quotes to answer that.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me"
"If [whoever] told you to jump of a cliff, would you?"
"It's not right to yell 'fire' in a theater"

Anyway, all I'm saying is that if it is his claim that there was a Guard command, that it will not hold water.

[Donnie B.]

Jens: I think the point is that if the voice heard is one of the Guard officers, it would answer a longstanding question as to whether any explicit order was given. (As I understand it, no one has ever admitted giving such an order.)

A second possibility is that the "order" was actually a protester's taunt that was mistaken for an order to fire. I believe that's what's being suggested by NEO and Doodler.

I don't think there's any way for a tape like this to make a distinction between these possibilities, even if it actually contains what is claimed.

I would be especially dubious if the tape included some background music that turned out to be CSNY's "Four Dead in Ohio". ;)

[SeanF]

A second possibility is that the "order" was actually a protester's taunt that was mistaken for an order to fire. I believe that's what's being suggested by NEO and Doodler.
I don't think they're necessarily going that far.

They're suggesting that what's heard on the tape is perhaps a protestor's taunt, but I don't think they're necessarily suggesting that the taunt "was mistaken for an order to fire." The guardsmen who opened fire may have not even heard the taunt, and it was merely coincidental that it occurred in close proximity to the firing.

[NEOWatcher]

I don't think they're necessarily going that far... and it was merely coincidental that it occurred in close proximity to the firing.
Exactly; thanks for some better words. No matter what was found on the tape, I really don't think it would indicate anything.

[Donnie B.]

The guardsmen who opened fire may have not even heard the taunt, and it was merely coincidental that it occurred in close proximity to the firing.Heh. I actually included that option in the first draft of my post, but cut it out for brevity. In doing so I eliminated what I originally intended to be the most likely interpretation. Oh well, thanks for the clarification.

[Doodler]

I don't think they're necessarily going that far.

They're suggesting that what's heard on the tape is perhaps a protestor's taunt, but I don't think they're necessarily suggesting that the taunt "was mistaken for an order to fire." The guardsmen who opened fire may have not even heard the taunt, and it was merely coincidental that it occurred in close proximity to the firing.

Taking in all aspects of the days leading up to the shootings, I wouldn't rule out a guardsman snapping under pressure, assuming he had heard an order to fire through the haze of his heart doing the lambada at 150+ bpm, and popping off with some of his unit following suit thinking an order to fire had been given.

One guy snaps, a few guys near him think, "[expletive], I didn't hear [insert commander here] order us to shoot!" then covering their posterior by opening up, with others in the majority thinking "What the heck are they doing?!". Some may have assumed it was an order to use suppressing fire, or deliberately indirect fire to scare them off, some might have figured those hippy freaks' (sympathetic exposition of a possible viewpoint of a guardsman) time had come.

They don't sustain fire because it finally occurrs to them that no one did order shooting, and the collective feeling of "Oh excrement" sets in and the Guard goes into CYA mode.

[Gillianren]

They're suggesting that what's heard on the tape is perhaps a protestor's taunt, but I don't think they're necessarily suggesting that the taunt "was mistaken for an order to fire." The guardsmen who opened fire may have not even heard the taunt, and it was merely coincidental that it occurred in close proximity to the firing.

Given the distance between the Guardsmen and the students at the time the Guardsmen opened fire, the taunt would have to have been pretty loud to have been heard at all. And that's the photos taken seconds before the Guardsmen opened fire that showed that.

[Christopher Ferro]

They didn't need to hear a taunt - the firing may have just coincided with it.

I think all the discussion boils down to that there's no new answers provided by the tape, as far as we know right now.

CJSF

[NEOWatcher]

Given the distance between the Guardsmen and the students at the time the Guardsmen opened fire, the taunt would have to have been pretty loud to have been heard at all. And that's the photos taken seconds before the Guardsmen opened fire that showed that.
Exactly. My other point is the direction of the recording equipment. The only dorm that would have caught any kind of voices would have been Prentice hall.
Here is a good diagram (http://www.hierographics.org/yourhistoryonline/kentstateshootings02.gif) of the situation.
If you notice, all of the dorm windows face the parking lot where the students were.
Also, to Gillianren's point, there was quite some distance and terrain to make it very hard for the guard to hear anything.
Plus, the guard was yelling "cease" fire rather loudly and sternly...Is that on the tape also?
Again, the tape as evidence is useless.

As a side note, the statue that they indicate (really a sculpture) has a very clear and clean bullet hole in it (as seen from the guards point of view (http://radicalcivility.org/images/steel-sculpture.jpg). Pretty impressive since it is at least 1/4 inch steel. Either a sign of panic, or very bad aim.

I am amused at the phrase "grassy knoll", It's the top of a rather large hill.

[Donnie B.]

As a side note, the statue that they indicate (really a sculpture) has a very clear and clean bullet hole in it (as seen from the guards point of view (http://radicalcivility.org/images/steel-sculpture.jpg). Pretty impressive since it is at least 1/4 inch steel. Either a sign of panic, or very bad aim.Or a deliberate miss. I state this only for completeness; I don't have any information about whether any of the guardsmen were shooting off target on purpose.

[NEOWatcher]

Or a deliberate miss. I state this only for completeness; I don't have any information about whether any of the guardsmen were shooting off target on purpose.
Yes; you could be right (sculpture wise). Although; I have my doubts that an intentional miss would be toward such a close object. It has been documented in various links that I ran across lately, that there were shots fired directly into the ground (mentioned in my rather lengthy post yesterday).

Heres another good overhead (http://www.sufpw.org/good_overview_with_notations1.jpg) shot of the area.

On a personal note, the building whose corner is barely showing on the left of this picture, directly left of the clump of trees, is where I lived for my underclassmen years in the early 80s. There was one student who was injured just outside my room window. Was this bullet a stray, or an intentional off target shot? Who knows?